Is E2S overtuned?

Is E2S overtuned as people say it is?

Going to try it someday, but I need some feedback on how the experiences are.

No. The Dps check might have been a little more strict than usual, but it's not too bad. The winged mobs that pass through the arena will give any players they touch a debuff that decreases their damage and at the end of the fight they're coming from multiple directions at once. Multiple players getting multiple stacks would make it harder to clear, but with how many weeks have passed since release, you shouldn't have any problems provided the party knows how to play their jobs.

I actually like the design of a fight that kind of lets you go quite far even if you mess things up, only to meet a hard enrage because of a tighter DPS check. Also I like fights with no downtimes (compared to that horrible O10S)
I guess now the gear has helped a bit, but those pesky flying mobs are quite a good idea in my opinion. It was surprising for a second turn to ask for an execution that tight, especially in the first weeks, but I enjoyed it a lot.

No it's not. The reason people have struggled is because first of all jobs like RDM, MCH, BRD, NIN, SMN, DNC were all weaker than they should be and there are so many awful players playing MNK, DRG, BLM, SAM. Despite having the ability to do so in the job they play, these players have been unable to pick up the slack left behind by the weak classes.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

No it's not. The reason people have struggled is because first of all jobs like RDM, MCH, BRD, NIN, SMN, DNC were all weaker than they should be and there are so many awful players playing MNK, DRG, BLM, SAM. Despite having the ability to do so in the job they play, these players have been unable to pick up the slack left behind by the weak classes.

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This pretty much. The undertuned nature of those jobs combined with that nasty damage down debuff simply made it so that there was very, very little room for error when Savage first dropped. Combine that with the fact that the somewhat wonky hitboxes of the adds and you basically just had a situation where in some parties if enough people were being debuffed it'd be a wipe, no matter how clean the run was otherwise.

Now? It's really not that bad. It's still my least favorite fight out of three I've experienced and I hate running it each week, but it's also probably the best fight in this current tier to practice on if you're new to Savage like I am. It's been really, really enlightening as to how to maximize DPS as a healer and still do mechanics - and even though I'm /terrible/ at it I at least feel like I'm making better strides each week I endure it for a book drop.

Personally I’d say yes. As someone who has to do it with pugs every week it feels a lot more punishing than the other savage fights, both in this tier and in previous tiers.

It’s got a much higher dps check than normal, even this far into the expansion I still see weekly clear groups that don’t make enrage and to top that off failing the add mechanics gives people a 50% damage down debuff meaning failing a single mechanic can be as punishing as dying twice.

Alte Roite called, it wants it’s zergfest back

No. Currently speedkills are around 7:25, which is more or less equal to speedkills of the second turn for the previous tier. If you're talking about mechanics, I'd say Midgardsormr was more entertaining.

It's kind of a Gatekeeper for the Eden-Savage-Raids. Our Static struggled a lot at first and with minimum iLevel the DPS-race against the enrage was very though but it's a lot easier now with everyone having the 460 weapon and more 460/470 items in general.

The first Eden raids are 5% weaker than what they would normally be, so not overtuned. The reason why people wipe to enrage is because they don't properly dodge adds, 30% damage down debuff is not insignificant.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Is E2S overtuned as people say it is?

Going to try it someday, but I need some feedback on how the experiences are.

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nope, not overtuned. the fight can have 99-100% uptime so its quite easy to beat the enrage assuming you can dodge the birds. the raid wide damage isnt that bad either. if youre having issues, find a POV video on your role and see how people are keeping their uptime or dealing with mechanics. other than that, its a pretty easy fight to one-shot.

It's the wall of this teir, it seems since Alphascape, they've been making turn 2 the wall of each teir. Though there won't be definitive confirmation of this until the second teir of Eden.

For statics I’d say no but for PF, absolutely. I have been trying in PF since release to clear it and I have given up all hope. Quietus is the wall that just destroys people. I’ve watched super high DPS groups just melt in that phase. I’d love it if they would add just one more second between the Chaos attacks.

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

It's the wall of this teir, it seems since Alphascape, they've been making turn 2 the wall of each teir. Though there won't be definitive confirmation of this until the second teir of Eden.

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Which is good, I don't want the first 2 turns to be snoozefests. Actually I would really like if the first turn would be as hard as the second, we already have extreme primals for "introduction to raiding" the first turn doesn't need to be so easy.

Mechanic wise? No.
DPS check wise? I think so, yes.

Mechanically, I find it easier to play than E1s.

Nope. Undertuned if anything. Even pugs are clearing it.

So far progging through it myself (currently before Quietus) I can really say the biggest hurdle people will face are the nyx heads that give you damage down. The fight itself isn't that bad, it's a mild pain to reposition as a tank, but there are ways to make it easier.

If your group can manage the first flares fine I'd say you're pretty much in the good until Quietus, and in that case just requires a lot of dodging and being topped off.

Hmmm, I don’t think it’s overtuned. Guillotine is annoying though. :P

If I compare it to O10s I think it’s easier - O10s had those annoying tank swaps, flip flops and spins you had to get right, the add was a dps check when it first came out and then there was hell with the tether and the fireballs. If you did manage to get through bulwark then people would mess up the last phase and the exaflares.

E2S only has Quietus to get through, which once you remember the circle of retribution or chaos phases and time it right, it’s ok. The dps requirement doesn’t seem that hard either, but again O10s felt worse imo for the dps check. :)

Nope, e2s is just a skill gate. It relies heavily on personal responsibility and youth average raider in ff14 is not used to that. In most content you can avoid doing mechanics and have someone do them (orbs in e1s for example) but in e2s the slight randomness of it and quick adaptability with personal responsibility is what's merc'n the average raider. I like it and I think we need more and more raids that force everyone to be good on an individual level by being forced to participate in the mechanics as much as possible WITH randomness so you are forced to learn everything.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

For statics I’d say no but for PF, absolutely. I have been trying in PF since release to clear it and I have given up all hope. Quietus is the wall that just destroys people. I’ve watched super high DPS groups just melt in that phase. I’d love it if they would add just one more second between the Chaos attacks.

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Two key things that really help with that phase are using the safe zone between the imps that spawn after the line AoE in Cycle of Chaos, and also just moving as soon as you see the animation for each AoE in the sequence start (It's an alarmingly common mistake I see people making where they wait until after an AoE's animation plays out to move when the damage actually locks in slightly before the cast finishes).

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Two key things that really help with that phase are using the safe zone between the imps that spawn after the line AoE in Cycle of Chaos, and also just moving as soon as you see the animation for each AoE in the sequence start (It's an alarmingly common mistake I see people making where they wait until after an AoE's animation plays out to move when the damage actually locks in slightly before the cast finishes).

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yeah anyone who is waiting for animations to finish is asking to be dead. that can be said about almost all mechanics in the game.

for cycle of chaos: wait for AoE > Move in hitbox > get in between birds > move to cleaver position > dodge the crazy Cuckoos flying everywhere. Theres plenty of time to move but I think people just panic.

Eden Savage Difficulty (in my opinion)

E4S>>E2S>>>>>E3S=E1S

It took me like 2 or 3 hours to clear E1s in PUG, took me 2 weeks in PUG to clear E2s (over 70 different clear parties), E3s took me like fewer than 10 pulls total, its pretty straight forward.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Eden Savage Difficulty (in my opinion)

E4S>>E2S>>>>>E3S=E1S

It took me like 2 or 3 hours to clear E1s in PUG, took me 2 weeks in PUG to clear E2s (over 70 different clear parties), E3s took me like fewer than 10 pulls total, its pretty straight forward.

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E2S must be a PUG-wrecker then, as this tier has been pretty straightforward in its difficulty for my 7/8 static. Levi, for some reason, was the hardest to learn as it took like 2 weeks, but now we one-shot it.

Pretty sure people only think it's overtuned because people are getting hit by the damage down.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Eden Savage Difficulty (in my opinion)

E4S>>E2S>>>>>E3S=E1S

It took me like 2 or 3 hours to clear E1s in PUG, took me 2 weeks in PUG to clear E2s (over 70 different clear parties), E3s took me like fewer than 10 pulls total, its pretty straight forward.

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You were just playing with bad people, there is nothing in E2S that makes it harder than levi.

I don't think it's really overtuned, but for pugs the Cycles at the end are probably a bit ridiculous with how easily they can impact your dps (and so the clear). It's the hardest mechanic to dodge in the fight and it doesn't show up until the very end, so getting to the point where you can actually practice it feels like it takes forever. Thankfully my static is almost at the point where we can skip the cycles entirely, because I don't want to see them anymore.

Doing a special mechanic at the end of the fight definitely isn't a unique thing to E2S, but I feel like most don't have the same ramp-up in attention required compared to the rest of the fight.

I've yet to be in a PUG that didn't have the DPS if no one died or gave the adds a hug. I know that's not universal, but in my experience most parties that fail aren't even getting to enrage.

Now that players are approaching the 460 ilvl mark the developers actually tune around, that should become even more true.

Gordias was overtuned. Eden 2 Savage just reflects the fact that SE tunes fights for the newest tome gear, but makes them passable at lower ilvl given good play.

Watching my roomates raid group, took them forever to clear E1S, half as long for E2S, and pretty much cleared E3S in a few hours.
Its possible they were all just really rusty, and suddenly are good, but im inclined to think each floor isnt set up to start off easier, and grow harder, but are roughly equal in difficulty, with only the smallest difference in difficulty.
(Could be wrong, havent bothered trying savage this time. I just dont really enjoy half the changes to jobs.)

E3S > E4S > E2S > E1S . Idk E3S seems more like the pug wrecker than E2S. I have no idea where you guys get the difficulty out of E2S, I oneshotted it in 3 try on my pug progress. But E3S? Obboi.

E2S just snowballs really quickly is all and it also mercilessly punishes greeding. Tons of repeating jump rope mechanics in puddles, cleaver, equilibrium, stacks, eye placement that come one after the other that can quickly cause a wipe or kill more than one person if one person fails to do it properly or is otherwise dead for some reason.

E3S is more of a slower methodical fight where you get to breathe as most of the fight hinges on you dodging current once you are able to do the pass/fail in tsunami1/2 and smokers at a high success rate.

No.
You can clear the fight with EXTRA dps if everyone in your party is 25th percentile. The DPS check isn't hard now. It wasn't hard week 1. It's a full uptime fight.
You shouldn't expect to clear the fight with people who don't know their rotation, healers that don't DPS, or with 20 damage downs.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Alte Roite called, it wants it’s zergfest back

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I'd prefer to call the O1S boss by his real FFV name (Jura Aevis) since we got 2 Halicarnassus bosses and 2 Acheron mobs in FFXIV. But that is discussion for another day. #FFnamepreferencesandsemantics


Back on topic, interesting reads. I'd wonder if mechanics would still be a problem in pugs nowadays when I do go for it.

It's not overtuned at all if anything it's easier with the gear upgrades and 460 weapons people have now, it comes down to personal mistakes, i.e dmg downs, deaths etc, E3S is much harder because if anyone makes any mistakes they can wipe the group.

I forgot to mention that I don't really have a benefit of a static, so I'll have to pug and wing it. So that means I'll have higher chances of dealing a damage down handicap or two on a party member.

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Originally Posted by LeonDalmasca

E3S > E4S > E2S > E1S . Idk E3S seems more like the pug wrecker than E2S. I have no idea where you guys get the difficulty out of E2S, I oneshotted it in 3 try on my pug progress. But E3S? Obboi.

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Putting them in an order like that according to your own experiences is just stupid, pug skill level varies so much any fight can feel like it's easy or hard. If you look at them objectively the amount of mechanics, the mechanics itself and the punishment for failing them gradually rise starting from E1S. E4S is clearly the hardest of them and levi is clearly harder than E2S, it's just that a lot of bad player have access to E2S and that is why it feels harder.

How is E3S hard lol it's an entirely team rope mechanic dance, and one pretty easy even. It basically only has 2 mechs, tsunami 2 and black smokers, and tsunami 2 requires very little thought with the current strat.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

How is E3S hard lol it's an entirely team rope mechanic dance, and one pretty easy even. It basically only has 2 mechs, tsunami 2 and black smokers, and tsunami 2 requires very little thought with the current strat.

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It's not hard, but neither is E2S. Teamrope mechanics are notoriously harder than just individual dodging like in E2S, since if one fails everyone usually dies. Tsunami 2 is the first mechanic where you actually have pause a little and figure out what to do, of course it's not hard now that everyone has done it a million times but first time doing it was something. By that same logic the only mechanic in E2S is the spell in waiting combos which are super easy and give you plenty of time to figure them out, everything else is just aeo dodging where E3S has team mechanics like stormy horizon, tsunamis and black smokers where 1 mistake can wipe the whole group. It's definitely more mechanic heavy and more punishing.

^ This. I listed them as "How many mistake can the party can afford to cause teamwipes". E3S is by far one of the biggest snowball. Even failing punishing ray on E2S doesn't kill you. I have no idea what people find hard but the dps wall in E2S is non existent since its a full uptime fight. The "wall" comes from healers that doesn't heal and/or tank that doesn't optimize their dps.

The dps wall is usually from the cycles portion of the fight. I have found it very difficult for savage but only because you can nail every mechanic up until the cycles, where you pray for RNG the majority of them are cycles of retribution because it's much easier to dodge and set. Whereas cycles of chaos gets most people and most pugs will either wipe from it or have to many damage downs that the last % of damage they need to deal won't be reached in time. Top it off, if they don't mitigate correctly... They'll die from the damage down + quietus damage up buffed damage. That's why I like using the tank limit break level 1 for the last couple of Quietus, just to guarantee we keep up dps and a 1.9k potency DPS LB isnt worth it when the cast/animation is so lengthy anyways.

Personally as much hell as I went through with E2s, I like the fight. Its a good gateway to let people know they need to know their jobs to deal efficient dps, understand mechanic responsibility, and develop party composition to fit situations like which jobs should be on puddles and etc. Most pugs I'm in, reach 4%, 1%, or worse.... I've cleared it exactly at the enrage timer with half my party dead before even. Meanwhile my static I just got into, we all one shot it and got no debuffs from any of the cycles by the end. I think its fine as it is and will get better with more gear of course, since people slowly get phantasmagoria and there's that loot lock on raids too.

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Originally Posted by LeonDalmasca

E3S > E4S > E2S > E1S . Idk E3S seems more like the pug wrecker than E2S. I have no idea where you guys get the difficulty out of E2S, I oneshotted it in 3 try on my pug progress. But E3S? Obboi.

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Is Ninja the job you use to do these fights? It would explain to me at least why you view E3S as harder than E4S. As a caster E4S is certainly the most annoying and difficult fight in the tier. By comparison E3S is pretty easy.