FFXIV's RDM to me will always be about its melee aspect, its balancing of mana and its support qualities. Something that has started to bug me recently has been our lack of a DPS neutral option for healing/shielding ourselves and our lack of black magic influence in our kit. VerCure and VerRaise show a bias towards white magic. I was thinking we could fix both issues if we take inspiration from DNC and WHM for a DPS rebate type of solution on a cool down.
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2 Second Cast Time. 2.5 second recast. Heal potency of 350. While under the effect of Acceleration, grants 7 white mana and doubles the potency of your next Spell.
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2 Second Cast time. 2.5 second recast. Places a barrier totaling 10% of the target's HP. Duration 30 seconds. While under the effect of Acceleration, grants 7 Black mana and doubles the potency of your next Spell.
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I think with the addition of these changes would see allot of small flavor and game-play enhancements. Acceleration would feel much more impactful, giving you a choice every-time you use it. It would even work its way into our optimal rotation when procs aren't going our way and acceleration comes up while having 0 procs. AOE wise it would be like a second swiftcast for Impact every 35 seconds.
Potency Math for how it would be balanced within the rotation. Remember too, that this can only happen once every 35 seconds under the effect of acceleration.
Acceleration -> Jolt II -> VerAero/VerThunder. {[~20 potency + 3 Mana] + [250 + 6 mana] } ~= 270 + 9 mana = 351 assuming mana is about ~9 potency.
Acceleration -> VerCure/VerWard -> VerAero/VerThunder = 310 + 7 mana = 373 assuming mana is about ~9 potency
Acceleration -> VerStone/VerFire -> VerA/T. {[~20 potency + 3 Mana] + [270 + 9 mana] } ~= 290 + 12 mana = 398 assuming mana is about ~9 potency
Accel + Jolt II < Accel + VerCure/VerWard < Accel + Verstone/Verfire
There are just lots of little things I like about this. Having an answer for VerCure in terms of Balance. Rewarded use of support. DPS Neutral Self Survival skill. DPS Rebate. Reopeners would feel really nice. AOE gets Accel use. Acceleration becomes more valuable.
*Also, I recognize that our current issue is having low DPS, which can be adjusted with Potency and Embolden tweaking, this is just a separate thought for the flavor/game-play of RDM and not about correcting the imbalance of the current meta.
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09-12-2019, 12:43 PMZynesteRDM Skill idea: VerWard to Mirror VerCure and adding Mana Gain with Acceleration Use
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09-12-2019, 01:17 PMDuelle
While I can appreciate the direction you're trying to take with this, I'm not comfortable with essentially forcing a RDM to cast Vercure/Verward every 35s (because as you illustrated, that gets you the best return sans procs).
Utility is supposed to be used when necessary, whereas your suggestion aims to make it part of the rotation. I'd probably just have Acceleration generate mana over 12s or something if we want it to help with mana generation. -
09-12-2019, 01:27 PMZynesteI actually illustrated that you wouldn't do it on cool down. You would only do it if you have 0 procs and would be forced to jolt Ii. Only then would you use it. If you happen to have a proc when accel comes off cool down, nothing changes in our use of acceleration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Potencies can be adjusted to make it truly dps nuetral, such as making it 5 mana instead of 7. In which case they would be within 3 potency. -
09-12-2019, 05:03 PMKatie_KittyAs long as it doesn't actively hurt our DPS, I'm actually okay with something along the lines of what's proposed here. You could actually argue this would be a better option than using jolt when acceleration is up strictly on the basis of potency. There's nothing inherently wrong with having support as part of our standard rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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09-12-2019, 06:49 PMDuelleMy concern is two-fold. One being that as I said, utility is there to be used when necessary rather than as a part of the rotation. Two being that this sort of thing might contribute to the mindset that RDM's DPS shouldn't get buffed because every 35 seconds someone in the raid is getting healed or someone is getting a barrier. And they'd be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
Also, bear in mind that utility is supposed to have an opportunity cost, whereas the OP's suggestion attempts to negate that. -
09-12-2019, 07:32 PMAvenoMatt
I wouldn't mind VerWard or having both it and VerCure generate mana. It would make the moments using them feel better since you are still building your resource that said I agree, it shouldn't work with Acceleration by doubling the potency since it would force it into the rotation.
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09-13-2019, 12:52 AMZynesteOur personal DPS will always be the lowest amongst the casters. If a Verward/Vercure can save a healer GCD, we aren't really losing any rdps, except from an fflogs stand point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Second wind has no opportunity cost except the cool down and the OGCD weave used. Same for any number of defensive cool downs. If you compare it directly to manaward, its opportunity cost is that it's much weaker. 10% compared to 30% for the rdm itself, but can be used 3 times per Manaward cool down.
These also have a cool down. Using them with acceleration everytime would also be a dps loss, outside of AOE, their use is situational. Assuming we would still have raise, wed already be taxed for its use, if a compromise isn't made. I doubt wed be taxed farther than dualcast VerRaise, even after/if the raise tax is lessened on us in 5.1.
They're tied to acceleration to prevent spamming during downtime, needlessly wasting MP or unbalancing mana. Getting mana back just isn't enough, wed need something to offset the damage lost or its no different than our current vercure use. Almost never, outside of proc generation during downtime. Never for support or survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by AvenoMatt
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09-13-2019, 02:18 AMWayfinder3
If Verraise and Vercure are going to stay then they should be changed to mitigate losses
Vercure can function exactly the same except it gives you a 100% guaranteed Verstone Proc.
Verraise should do the same with Fire procs and could possibly double the potency of the next Spell expended by Dualcast. This way, Verraise is at least not a dps loss and neither stops the rotation flow. Vercure would also be even better during downtime as you have the chance to get 2 procs once the boss reappears.
My personal problem with your idea of verward(aside from the uninspired name and manaward isn’t even a spell so it wouldn’t get the “ver” prefix) is that it’s a GCD and 2nd, RDM needs more party wide utility. Ver”Medica(2)” as an OGCD is a wonderful idea here because RDMs Kit is too far in the worst case scenario. Good defensive cooldowns on dps should aim to support the raid prior to someone’s death while not costing the dps damage. Mantra, Addle, Troubador are all perfect examples of this. RDM is currently paying for worst case scenario utility and as a result, it’s entire usefulness is front loaded in the idea that your run might wipe. It’s the worst job in the game until your run needs to be salvaged in which case. It’s broken.
The jobs value swings way too far into uselessness or brokenness and there is no inbetween. RDM as a result pays for the brokenness of its kit and the practicality of it gets completely ignored. This is the fundamental reason why RDM struggles in this game -
09-13-2019, 03:01 AMZynesteIf VerCure gave you a Verstone Proc, the "potency" of Vercure would be about ~47 potency, compared to jolt II at ~305. Its just not enough. You would also always be lopsided to white in those cases. You are still down at least 6 mana from the cast, pushing back your melee combo alignment within the encounter. It fixes nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
You see im the opposite here. Party wide defensive utility is a slippery slope. If one job of the role brings it, every job of the role needs to bring an answer to it. See Shake it off/DV/DMissionary/HoL and Trouba/Samba/Tactician. Mantra slipped through the cracks there, but Its definitely not the norm. Minor Single Target utility, like WP and Curing Waltz are fine. Would I take an OGCD Heal of any kind? Of course! But I don't think that giving us more White Magic is going to keep us balanced with our Black magic Aspect. We literally have nothing aside from role skills that we borrow/share with BLM compared to Vercure and VerRaise that we share with White Magic. -
09-13-2019, 03:51 AMArchwizard
So on the one-hand, I love the idea of having a Black magic utility spell to oppose Vercure and I've been hoping for one forever.
On the other hand... would this consume Acceleration? Because if so that means you can't use Acceleration for it's intended purpose to influence procs, meaning you'll always come up at a Mana loss even compared to Jolt II. And if not, I worry about potential exploitation of the effect for non-proc skills to extend the duration, like doubling the potency of Verstone/Verfire before doubling the potency of Veraero/Verthunder, and about the increased MP cost.
Or about newer players just popping Acceleration and doing a quick rotation of Ward > Cure x2 > Ward on the tank. (Remembering that the skill simply says "double potency" and doesn't specify for damage.)
Plus having all of our personal survival skills on a cast time would be kinda painful, since we have no oGCD protection like Manaward or Titan-Egi. -
09-13-2019, 04:03 AMZynesteTitan Egi for example takes 3+seconds [Summon + Egi Assault + Laggy Casting Animation], so its not the greatest for emergencies either. Having VerWard give a large Duration like 30 seconds, [and maybe also giving accel two charges because why not] is so that you can use it ahead of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
It would consume Acceleration, so you would only get the mana from the first use. Losing 2 mana, won't push us back much compared to losing 6-9 mana everytime we use it, with infrequent use it probably wouldn't push us back at all. Giving it to us on GCD also allows us to use it during long transitions like we currently can now with vercure or to proc dualcast without overheal. [A seperate skill could be introduced instead of acceleration, but I think for the sake of making Accel more interesting and fighting button bloat it would fit well as is.]
Planning ahead in fights is where you would feel it. BLM/SMN can't just pop their OGCDs Shields either, an open weave window is necessary. Popping it the earliest you can will ensure its up and not interfereing with your rotation. [SMN really can't use their shield either because of the loss of Auto Attack potency, loss of the Egi Assault and the Ruin IV proc loss zzz. So they really need something as well.] -
09-13-2019, 04:12 AMWayfinder3Vercure isn't supposed to be used for it's cure. we don't need to incentive for bad rdms to think they're healers. if it was in SB, thats definitely not true now with the tank HP and party wide HP being so high in the 100ks while vercure spends 2 gcds to do at best a 1/3rd of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
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09-13-2019, 04:16 AMZynesteWhich is where our suggestions differ. Yours is to "100%" give a stone proc with Vercure use. Not limited by any sort of cool down. Just spam it, I feel like that would entice poor play way more than it being limited to a cool down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
The whole point of this is to find an answer to Manaward/Second Wind for RDM and fix the White and Black magic spell origin Imbalance. Something that achieves a DPS nuetral or relatively minimal loss.
Proccing Verstone every Vercure use does nothing towards this and doesn't fix our White leaning tendencies. I just don't see a reason to have VerRaise to give a fire proc, but I understand where you're coming from. You're still pushing back your mana by a gcd and would need to spend your Verfire proc before raising. RDM identity would be entwined even deeper with raise though as it would have the least loss PPS wise amongst SMN/WHM/AST/SCH. RDM would always raise. -
09-13-2019, 04:59 AMWayfinder3while i don't like the idea that Raise and RDM are intertwined. RDM should be able to use it's premier utility at an accelrated and powerful rate. Vercure and Verraise shouldn't be DPS losses to RDM, they should be neutral at best. you could argue a gain because, Raising a DPS begets weakness which is inherently dps negative. your idea of rdm needing a manaward isn't that big of a deal, SMN doesn't have one and even if they did. it's hardly a premier part of their kit. you could argue RDM has more since we at least have a cure. The idea of Cure giving us procs is because at the very least, you have an addtional 20 potency and 7 mana on using a weaker GCD. Cure shouldn't even be used anyway. Raise on the other hand has niche uses and as a result, it should definitely pay us back if we have to keep it. WHM was in a similar position where all their best skills were GCDs. so they made those GCDs lead to a 900 potency skill thats still dps negative, but it on most occassions can mitigate the losses they would've had without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
these little cute gimmick post about solo shields and heals aren't what RDM, a dps needs right now or ever. we need to be talking about why RDM, the weakest job in the game in the constructs of this games meta(DRG MNK BLM or NIN being the best 4) can't work with the strongest job currently BLM as Embolden doesn't increase thier PDPS weaking them or your RDPS weakening your contribution let alone healers. We need to be talking about why RDM is weaker than all 3 physical ranged options as a result of this but it has cast times. We need to talk about why RDM got no meaningful additions to it's kit besides scorch and arguably engagement and reprise. the fact that reprise is essentially ruin 2 and SEs dps negative answer to RDM uptime issues, meanwhile BLM got so many more mobility tools now majority of which are DPS neutral or DPS positive and, RDM just has to sit there being less mobile and way weaker.
There is alot more to be talked about than manaward and a cure that RDMs only like because it's something to do when the boss is gone. Vercure could have no heal attached and be a blank ability and RDMs wouldn't care because what it does doesn't matter and what it could've done (being a functional heal) got weaker with the overall nerfing of Healing abilities relative to the increase in HP that jobs got. The worst thing about RDM, is that nobody is talking about it. SE hasn't acknowledged anything beyond the initial mana mishap of which only proves to me that the Media tour was probably the first and last day RDMs kit was actually looked at -
09-13-2019, 05:08 AMZynesteQuote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
All of this has already been discussed and if SE hasn't gotten the clue by now, they won't ever. Half the community doesn't even recognize whats wrong with RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
This is a suggestion for down the road and in all more an exercise in boredom than anything. I like responses like yours because it lets me gauge what other RDM want in the job. This character is an alt, so I raid RDM on the other for Forum reasons. -
09-13-2019, 05:31 AMWayfinder3Honestly we don't need these skills. they don't do anything to the RDM gameplay experience aside from add a flavor. if we wanted more RDM flavor Verholy, Flare should be AoEs like their original counterparts, scorch too because it's the Red magic equivalent. VerThunder/Aero 2 should be Blizzard/Water and Deal 140 potency so that the RDM AoE Rotation is consistent at 2 plus targets and the mana generation doesn't slowdown either. E Moulinet is fine as is. Acceleration could restore some mana so we have an built in method of doing that would be nice. all of these are flavorful suggestions that move RDM in a better direction for a DPS. single target shields/heals aren't needed on a DPS especially since tanks have legit counterparts for everything in their kitQuote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
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09-14-2019, 08:40 AMDuelleDid we already forget that this thread existed? If anything, it's proven that the principle of utility never making up for DPS potential still holds true today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
Second Wind cannot be used on someone other than yourself, and an oGCD (really?) is not a loss, especially when compared to spending procs on something that's not damage, consuming resources that could be used to deal damage on off-role actions and so on. We thus can't compare a personal cooldown (Second Wind) with utility (Vercure, Verraise, Clemency, Divine Veil, your proposed Verward).Quote:
Second wind has no opportunity cost except the cool down and the OGCD weave used.
Per your description, casting Vercure/Verward under the effect of Acceleration grants a buff that doubles the potency of the next spell. Which means Acceleration + Vercure/Verward => Veraero/Verthunder is looking at 620 potency over 5s (2 GCDs), as opposed to Jolt II => Veraero/Verthunder (560 potency over 5s) or Verfire/Verstone => Veraero/Verthunder (580 potency over 5s). If potency scaling of singular abilities has diminishing returns the higher the number gets, now would be a good time to tell me because I'm just going by the numbers listed and what you wrote.Quote:
Using them with acceleration everytime would also be a dps loss, outside of AOE, their use is situational.
Shrugging your shoulders and giving more reason for the tax to exist is not the way to go about this, IMO.Quote:
I doubt wed be taxed farther than dualcast VerRaise, even after/if the raise tax is lessened on us in 5.1.
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09-14-2019, 10:48 AMZynesteIf that thread proves anything its that VerRaise is the wrong kind of support utility. Something that becomes completely irrelevant when no mistakes are made. Thats it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Second wind does have an opportunity cost and can cost you DPS. Any OGCD used out of order can. You have no real point even with your base assumption that "utility has to have opportunity cost." Curing Waltz, Nature's Minne and Mantra come to mind. I'm really not gonna go down this strawman lane. [/quote]Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
You're completely forgetting about the mana generation from the acceleration and the base mana on Verstone/Verfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Acceleration into VerCure/VerWard would be stronger than Acceleration into Jolt II. Acceleration into Vercure/VerWard would be weaker than Acceleration into VerStone/VerFire.
The potency of Acceleration of VerStone/VerFire into VerThunder/VerAero would be the base potency of Verstone/Verfire [(290) + 9 mana] + VerAero/Verthunder [310 + 11 mana] + [3 Mana and 20 Potency] from Acceleration Proccing your next VerStone/VerFire instead of dropping back down to Jolt II. 23 mana total. Assuming the potency of each mana is worth about 9 right now, thats 207 potency from mana + 600 potency from base totaling 807.
The potency of Acceration into VerCure/VerWard into VerThunder/VerAero would be [310 + 7 mana] + VerAero/Verthunder [310 + 11 mana] 18 mana total. Assuming the potency of each mana is worth about 9 right now, thats 162 potency from mana + 620 potency from base totaling 782.
Any number of semantic changes could balance it so that its Truly DPS neutral.
These two changes for example make it, even at a glance, to be a DPS loss over using Verstone/Verfire . The idea is the mechanic behind it, not the potency I set. The potency and wording I chose just best described the mechanic and when I mathed it out, it just came out to be above dps nuetral on jolt. I understand people not wanting it part of optimal rotation, the mechanic just could in the form I presented. I just want it to be as close to DPS Nuetral to Jolt II as possible. In this last example it would be something like 753 Potency [Accel -> VerCure/VerWard -> Verthunder/VerAero] < 760 Potency [Accel -> Jolt II -> VerThunder/VerAero] < 807 Potency [Accel Verfire/Verstone]Quote:
2 Second Cast time. 2.5 second recast. Places a barrier totaling 10% of the target's HP. Duration 30 seconds. While under the effect of Acceleration, grants 6 Black mana and doubles the potency of your next Spell up to 290 potency.
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RDM will always be taxed until the issue is figured out with raise, if it ever is. VerRaise alone will be the reason our DPS is set to be the lowest caster. Until they fix that issue, our damage is always going to be subpar. Having actual defensive utility on a cool down isn't going to put us any lower. If they fix VerRaise and we suddenly are competitive again I still doubt having single target utility on a cool down will affect our damage much. If just "having" the utility is enough to tax us, surely PLD would be the lowest of the tanks, but its not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle