I'm trying to figure out whats the optimal materia setup for a Paladin. After reading some of the threads on this forum, I'm getting many mixed reviews. Last night I went with mostly tenacity, but after browsing a little more this evening I've concluded that possibly was a terrible idea.
All input is helpful!
Thanks in advance.
Optimal Materia for Paladin?
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08-21-2019, 11:58 AMLionidasOptimal Materia for Paladin?
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08-21-2019, 06:12 PMArianeEwah
I will redirect you to this thread then as it's pretty much the same discussion.
On a side note: your melds can only do so much, your rotation is more important. The loss by playing sub-optimal is by far bigger than melding sub-optimal.
For rotation, BiS, and melding I recommend this guide: Vigilamus Pro Te - Paladin Primer v5.01 -
08-21-2019, 11:41 PMTex_Mex
He's right. Don't stress too much over what you meld. The DPS difference between the worst possible melds and the best is less than 3%. Variations in player skill account for MUCH more than that, so work on getting your rotation down.
Personally, I like all Direct Hit for PLD right now, since they do not need skill speed for anything and det and crit are sub-optimal with the current tier of gear. This is expected to change later on once gear starts getting better. Crit typically pulls ahead once you are able to stack enough of it.
As far as Tenacity, players are largely in two groups:
Pro-Tenacity: Believes that the most important job of a tank is to be able to reduce as much incoming damage as possible, Tank DPS, while important, plays a less important role than defense. Plus, if you stack tenacity, then you can use the same gear sets for all 4 tanks pretty much, since all of the tanks benefit equally from Tenacity. The argument is commonly made that a higher tenacity stat reduces healing requirements a little, so healers can squeeze out a little more damage to offset what the tank loses.
Pro-DPS(crit, det, direct hit): Believes that in the current raid tier, DPS checks are the most difficult obstacle to overcome, so every tiny amount of DPS matters. The big argument made here is this: Encounter design is such that tanks are either dealing with a tank buster or auto attack damage. Auto attack damage is typically so low, that tenacity has a minimal effect on it anyways. Tank-busters are easily dealt with when properly mitigated by cooldowns, so it is a rare occurrence that the damage reduction from tenacity will ever make a significant difference. Plus, healing in the game is so powerful that it is common to overheal by 5-10% anyways, even when playing optimally, so tenacity doesn't really help healers much. The unfortunate downside to stacking these stats; however, is that all tanks don't benefit from them equally. WAR largely gets left out to dry right now because DH is the optimal stat for the other 3 tanks, but it is pretty bad on WAR due to how Inner Release and Infuriate work, so to be able to switch between all tanks requires you to remeld when you switch or to have a 2nd set of equipment.
I am in the Pro-DPS camp, but both arguments are valid and have their merits/detriments. -
08-22-2019, 12:02 AMIntrovertAntI think this is incorrect. Tenacity does not make healing on you from healers better. It makes your own healing better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
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08-22-2019, 12:08 AMReinhardt_AzureheimThe argument is based on Tenacity's passive mitigation, "less danage taken = less healing required", not on the selfheal boost. (and even that is a weak argument at best because it doesnt change what tools healers would use)Quote:
Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt
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08-22-2019, 12:13 AMTex_MexI do agree with you that it is a weak argument. That's why I'm firmly in the Pro-DPS camp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
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08-22-2019, 01:07 AMJukebox12
You need a certain about of skill speed to get the first riot blade under FoF which is 2.38 gcd which is a gain. On gear it's crit>det>sks>tentacity on molds it's direct hit all the round unless you are playing all tanks it's crit then det
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08-22-2019, 02:31 AMWyndam
I'm in the Pro-"Leave no slot empty" camp. Obviously optimal stats are best but if it ever means leaving slots empty because you lack the materia/clusters/gil to fill the slots, then you would have been better off with the less effective alternative.
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08-22-2019, 02:32 AMTex_Mexhaha this is definitely true. DH may be trash on WAR, but it's better than nothing lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Wyndam
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08-22-2019, 03:58 AMReinhardt_AzureheimUntil you breach the 3500 crit breakpoint (vs. DH; probably like 3200 vs. Det) it is better to go for DH and Det for melds, WAR being a different story with guaranteed crits on their main bursts ofc, there Crit probably gets more powerful much earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
EDIT: Merely posted to go into detail for the stat priority, not that you said anything wrong. -
08-22-2019, 06:08 PMArianeEwahIf you need 2.38s GCD for FoF Riot Blade, you must've the worst connection I have ever heard of. There is a theoretical BiS with a GCD of 2.45s that does work with FoF Riot Blade, but only under the conditions that A) connection is perferct (no lags, low ping) B) 100% uptime on target (even a fraction of a clip will cause this BiS to fail). More common, and useful in practice BiS' have a GCD of 2.43s-2.4s. 2.38s is way too fast. You are not 'Sonic the PLD', get that SkS off your gear!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
Unfortunately, the guide I posted above doesn't include any BiS yet. There are several on balance discord tho. -
08-22-2019, 07:43 PMRabin
I'm Pro-Tenacity for all progression content. If you're not doing Savage with a Static, I believe in using use the Tank stat they gave to us. When a piece won't take Tenacity, I pop in DET for the extra self-healing. You never know when you'll need some good heals with pick-up groups.
Tenacity gives you get slightly less damage output, slightly less self healing, but an extra few percent of damage mitigation that the other materia don't provide. I'm very much there to a) Keep aggro and b) be able to take a hit.
Remember, the "BiS-or-Bust" guys are all doing Savage, or pretending that they're doing Savage - I'm not in that group at all.
Filthy Casual™ and proud of it, maaaan. -
08-22-2019, 10:15 PMReinhardt_AzureheimI can confirm 2.43-2.45s myself since I have been forced to run with low SkS for a while now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArianeEwah
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10-13-2019, 04:40 AMSeabhacgra
Love this thread, thanks for making it! all the guides I've watched on Youtube and online have lead me to believe Crit is always king, even on a Pally, which I play. I have all 450+ gear with several 460 and several pieces overmelded. I'm sitting about 2680 Crit, 1890 Det and 1200 DH... I;m a bit of a min maxer so I like to optimize as much as possible.. so you're all saying I should be focusing on DH instead of Crit??
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10-13-2019, 05:09 AMTheForceHmmm, you're entitled to your opinion, but I think your view is kind of strange. If I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that melding Tenacity is (compared to melding like a DPS) is the worse choice because of how negligible its effects are, and how you wouldn't see a big difference from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex_Mex
In the words of Yoshi P himself,
Tenacity is an omnipotent stat, it affects too many different traits for it to make a large impact, but even so, it still makes a fair difference ( I remember reading that having ~2000 tenacity reduces our damage taken by around 5%, can't remember how it affects other traits).
The DPS materia also make a rather small difference all in all, but they should because it's all just materia, and I do agree with what you said about how people shouldn't make a huge deal about it. So yeah, you won't see any drastic changes if you meld this way either, it's not like that's only limited to Tenacity. But, I will not ignore the possibility that a run (mainly the dps check)
CAN be saved if the Tank puts out a little extra damage, however, my counter is this: if a group is that reliant on the Tank putting out a little extra damage to get a clear, there is a big problem with that group, because that should not happen.
At the end of the day, it just comes down to subjective persona preference. Would you rather take a little less damage and be Tankier at the cost of doing a little less damage, or do more damage at the cost of taking a little more damage. Personally, I believe that a Tank has no business ever sacrificing defense or passing up any way to increase their survivability, but I won't force my views on everybody, I just play my way and let others do what they wanna do. In general, the problem comes when others who have an imaginary superiority complex attack you and try to make you feel like you don't know what you're doing. -
10-13-2019, 07:08 AMArianeEwahIf you are running solo or w/o SCH/DRG, DH is better than Crit until you have ~4k Crit alone. If you're running with SCH/DRG this may drift towards Crit, but you still would need roughly 3.5k for it to be stronger than DH. What is exact value when Crit becomes better than DH in raid scenarios? I dunno, there are too many factors. I think even the theory groups on discord will blow their minds before they have the perfect answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabhacgra
Anyway, here are some statistics for nerds:
Here are really low stats, Crit is just as good as Ten.Quote:
DET 1330 [340+990] -> +3.9%
CRIT 1370 [380+990] -> +3.06%
DH 1370 [380+990] -> +4.125%
TEN 1370 [380+990] -> +3%
While Crit gets higher than Ten, it scales worse than Det/DH.Quote:
DET 1990 [340+1650] -> +6.5%
CRIT 2030 [380+1650] -> +5.5%
DH 2030 [380+1650] -> +6.875%
TEN 2030 [380+1650] -> +5%
Crit hit the point where it scales better now, but is still behind Det.Quote:
DET 2650 [340+2310] -> +9.1%
CRIT 2690 [380+2310] -> +8.26%
DH 2690 [380+2310] -> +9.625%
TEN 2690 [380+2310] -> +7%
This is the breakpoint for Crit, from here out on it will beat Det.Quote:
DET 3640 [340+3300] -> +13%
CRIT 3680 [380+3300] -> +13%
DH 3680 [380+3300] -> +13.75%
TEN 3680 [380+3300] -> +10%
Crit beats DH, at this point DH becomes worthless as melds unless Crit is maxed.Quote:
DET 4300 [340+3960] -> +15.6%
CRIT 4340 [380+3960] -> +16.56%
DH 4340 [380+3960] -> +16.5%
TEN 4340 [380+3960] -> +12%
Not sure if we can ever reach those numbers, just wanted to show the scaling.Quote:
DET 5290 [340+4950] -> +19.5%
CRIT 5330 [380+4950] -> +22.5%
DH 5330 [380+4950] -> +20.625%
TEN 5330 [380+4950] -> +15%
All values for solo/non-raid (no SCH/DRG) scenarios!
If you go for Det/DH, you will have a more... 'safe damage' build, but you can barely scale higher. With Crit/DH it's more rng-based, but you CAN scale higher. -
10-13-2019, 07:36 AMSeabhacgraQuote:
Originally Posted by ArianeEwah
Thanks for this info! The only raiding I do is the PUGGED Eden's and old school roulettes right now. No access to a static right now.. so most the time I run dungeons and solo things like Eureka and Diadem and Fates etc.. I'm just a bit neurotic about constantly improving my character. This is why I want to meld the best possible so I can be the best Tank for my friends and family. -
10-13-2019, 08:14 AMArianeEwahTex_Mex is right about the fact that Ten 'benefits' are not as great as they seem in most content. Savage bosses, and dungeon trash/bosses do so little damage with their AAs that even 5% damage reduction is neglectable.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
Everytime you're using a dCD Tenacitys damage reduction loses value. e.g. at 5% base damage reduction, Rampart reduces it to 4%, Sentinel to 3.5%, Invuls completely ignore it (0%).
Another reason that has been mentioned are healer CDs. Healers refrain from using their GCD healing spells. If Ten does not save you a healing GCD, then there are no benefits.
Anyway, there duties where Tenacity might actually become a life-saver: Ultimates. Those fights are rough, the bosses hit like truck even with AAs. It's common that healers use GCD healing spells here. Sometimes even dCDs alone might not cut it, and b/c there are so many tank busters in succession, you need a good dCD/heal mapping. The DPS checks on previous Ultimates show that they are not as tight as week 1 savage DPS checks. e.g. SB savage fight on min iLvl (O4s, O8s, O12s) had way harder DPS checks than Garuda in UWU, you could even skip her last tank/party buster. Losing 2% damage on tanks wouldn't make a difference, but the 5% damage reduction might save our sorry tank arses here.
As I said above, DPS checks on last savage fights are rough, especially in week 1 on min iLvl. Every little damage helps, and if it's ~2% from 2 tanks, so be it. Had bad procs on BRD? Low crit/DH despite a 'perfect' rotation on DPS? Every single DPS point helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
Ten will most likely NOT save a GCD heal on a tank in savage fights. If it does, and the damage difference by gaining an additional e.g. Glare is higher than, or equal to the lost ~2% damage dealt on the tank(s), then it is indeed beneficial. But again, scenarios where this is the case are rare to non-existent.
At the same time it increases damage dealt and healing DONE (it says 'HP restored', it is effectively the same as Det, but it doesn't increase the healing you 'receive'). A Cure that healed for 400 on the tank before Ten applied will still heal 400 after. On the other hand, Souleater healing will increase from e.g. 300 to 315.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
(by the way you were right, at 2030 Ten you gain exactly 5% damage reduction - see stats in my previous post)
PS: I am not sure whether Det also increases your healing potency. The stat itself states: 'HP restored by healing spells'. Clemency is a healing spell, yet Equilibrium, Aurora, Abyssal Drain, and the healing from combos/weaponskills are not. I haven't found any record on how healing abilities are affected... -
10-13-2019, 12:20 PMTheForce
@ArianeEwah, all in all, fairly well-crafted response.
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10-13-2019, 12:25 PMTheForce
sorry, sent too early. Hate mobile. Anyway, yeah pretty good response. However what you said about how Tenacity is pretty much only useful if it saves a Healer CD.
No. Not at all. Hard disagree. Taking less damage is always useful, especially if you get by a TB and are left with miniscule fractions of your health left. Tenacity is literally a life-saver in said situation.
Also, Determination affects the actual potency of a healing spell (Clemency). -
10-13-2019, 09:51 PMaodhan_ofinnegainIn that scenario you're pretty much dead, since the AA afterwards is 9 times out of 10 after the buster is gonna kill you. In that scenario either you screwed up your mitigation or the healer(s) didn't have you sufficiently topped before hand, that's not really tenacity at work per se. Also the occurrence of this scenario playing out is pretty scarce, and stacking tenacity for the day it decides to rain is a waste and is not "optimal" as the OP asked about in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
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10-13-2019, 09:56 PMArianeEwahThanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
I can only repeat what I said before: If Ten is not necessary for your survival nor does it lessen the GCD healing by a noticeable amount, it has no benefits. If it does, you should indeed take it. Again, there are some situations or duties like Ultimate that may require Ten - even on Balance Discord, they have done Ten builds for Ultimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
And again, Ten is not necessary for savage fights. All TB are designed that they should not kill you with at least 1 dCD. And I can tell you from experience that DPS is all that matters in week 1! I really does! You can beat the DPS check in Ultimates with 1-2 death(s), but not - or almost not - in savage week 1. e.g. UWU got cleared with 1 death on Ultima, but I've rarely seen any week 1 clears with deaths during active time.
Those ofc are rare cases where you have to decide whether you should meld/focus on Ten or Det/DH. If you run dungeons or other 'casual content', Ten or DH doesn't really matter. If you go for speed kills or savage week 1 clears, don't expect to be kept in the party with Ten builds.
And that's a scenario where you can't ask the DPS to 'keep up the slack' b/c they are already doing the best possible. If you wipe to 1% enrage with no death and a perfect rotation, yet tanks sit on Ten gear, it's on the tanks!
PS: I just noticed you said 'Healer CD'. No, I didn't say Ten is useful when it save a healer CD, but GCD(s)! oGCDs like Tetra, EDignity etc are meant to be used, but GCDs like Cure, Benefic, Physick/Adlo should be used moderately.
Obiviously it does b/c it's a spell. I just wondered whether healing abilities are affected, too... I did some testing with Det, then Ten melds, and yes, abilities and even the cure potencies from combo skills are indeed affected by both stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
I know PLD doesn't have any heal outside of Clemency, but it's interessting for the other tanks that don't have healing spells.
(My wording in the previous post was just bad.) -
10-15-2019, 01:42 AMDeceptus"Noticeable" is extremely subjective. While leveling (70+ content), I slotted Tenacity and I found big pulls to be much more manageable. When 12 mobs are hitting you, that extra 10% mitigation matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArianeEwah