Noob question about the spell raise

Today i learned the hard way not too use raise since this random tank in the dungeon told me not too in a rude way.. And i quickly noticed why cause of the debuff it gives.

So my question is if there is an actual use for this spell, like only in a raid environment ?

You Raise people when the situation demands it, if the fight is about to end or has already ended, raising someone will put a debuff for no reason.

You should Raise a tank if he will have enough time to save the party during a boss encounter for example, but in trash pulls the enemies will most likely kill everyone before the tank has time to get aggro back, so in this case it's better to just die.

I’ve never seen a swift cast/raise go unappreciated, unless perhaps it’s used when the DRK has living dead on and there’s no WHM in the party. Hard casting raise, though, should only be done situationally. You do it if it’ll prevent a wipe, but usually if the tank goes down in a pull and you don’t have swiftcast it’s best to just heal like a madman and try to get through the pull.

In a longer fight, it depends on the group (how much damage each person does, how often people die, etc), and on how long it’ll take for swiftcast to come off cooldown whether it’s mathematically better to hardcast raise and pull them up.

If the fight is ongoing, and will be for awhile, use it, if it's about to end, they're free to decline it and go back to the beginning if they die at the end and you raise them, so if they're upset that you raised them, tell them just to hit the decline button and move on

Pretty much use it in battle and it is worth reserving your Swiftcast for it, it's a godsend. If I were to hazard a guess, the fight was over and it'd not have been too much of a trek for the raised person to get back without the debuff on them. Even then, the debuff is not that awful and people have a choice to accept a raise or not. But if in doubt, it's no biggy if you use it whenever somebody is dead. I guess the important bit is to not sacrifice yourself or somebody else to raise. Unless it's the tank you're trying to raise, then better a dead DPS if you save yourself and the tank, and this is how to end up clutching back fights you might otherwise have lost. :) Healers have power over life and death, so there is also the tendency to want to laugh maniacally.

I'd probably also assess the situation, sometimes I might avoid rezzing somebody who keeps making mistakes and dying, not out of any kind of spite but because there becomes a point where it's a waste and eating up your MP when it could be used elsewhere, as keeping the party alive might be more important. Sometimes it can be a case of prioritisation. Another tip I guess would be to raise RDM's and SMN's first (if tank & other healer up) in the event there are multiple people down because RDM and SMN can also raise and help out. Though sometimes the RDM and SMN don't play ball. If any of this helps of course, these tend to be the sorts of things you pick up as you get more used to playing the role.

Thank you all for the replies, this helped a lot :)

I'm just amazed someone could get angry over this...

Like others have said, the only real reason not to raise someone in a dungeon is if the fight is already over (give or take outside factors like MP, Swiftcast CD, other healers who might cast it, etc.) Releasing and running back means no weakness, but during a fight a weakened player is still way better than a dead one.

There exists a specific situation where you should not raise: right after a dungeon boss, since there is a shortcut from the beginning of the dungeon to the boss you just killed. Someone can return and shortcut without weakness in about the same time it takes to raise them with weakness.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

There exists a specific situation where you should not raise: right after a dungeon boss, since there is a shortcut from the beginning of the dungeon to the boss you just killed. Someone can return and shortcut without weakness in about the same time it takes to raise them with weakness.

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See I'd argue a raise is still ok in this situation because for me personally I'd rather just get up and push forward with the weakness that lasts barely 2 min than suffer the mental torture of running through an empty dungeon trying to catch up with the rest of the group. I know at the end of the day, preference is preference and it doesn't matter if you raise with weakness or just run to catch up after returning, I just can't wrap my mind around the fact it can anger someone to cast raise at the end of a fight like that when they are still 100% in control of whether they accept the raise or just return in the end. When out of combat the cost of a raise is essentially 0 since you will likely have full mp by the time you make it as a group to the next trash pull anyways.

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Originally Posted by Publius85

I'd rather just get up and push forward with the weakness that lasts barely 2 min than suffer the mental torture of running through an empty dungeon trying to catch up with the rest of the group.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

there is a shortcut from the beginning of the dungeon to the boss you just killed.

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What catch up? You can be back in the room before the party even leaves it.

If you return before the boss dies, wait a few seconds for the boss to die so that the shortcut updates, then take the shortcut. "The <boss room> is no longer sealed." means the shortcut has been updated.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

What catch up? You can be back in the room before the party even leaves it.

If you return before the boss dies, wait a few seconds for the boss to die so that the shortcut updates, then take the shortcut. "The <boss room> is no longer sealed." means the shortcut has been updated.

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I mean we're arguing semantics here, but as simple as what you wrote may be clicking accept raise is even simpler is all I'm trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Publius85

I mean we're arguing semantics here, but as simple as what you wrote may be clicking accept raise is even simpler is all I'm trying to say.

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You're not arguing semantics, there's a functional difference in how the next 2 minutes will proceed depending on your course of action.

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Originally Posted by Publius85

I mean we're arguing semantics here, but as simple as what you wrote may be clicking accept raise is even simpler is all I'm trying to say.

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That's not what semantics is. I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse or if you legitimately don't comprehend what you've been told . . .

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Originally Posted by Publius85

I'm just amazed someone could get angry over this...

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if some1 is angry over this just tell him "pls don't die any more so you won't get that debuff" ^^

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Originally Posted by Dynia

if some1 is angry over this just tell him "pls don't die any more so you won't get that debuff" ^^

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Also, "Then don't accept it and respawn on your own, you're the one that clicked Accept."

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

That's not what semantics is. I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse or if you legitimately don't comprehend what you've been told . . .

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I'd respond but I legitimately can't comprehend what you're telling me.

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Originally Posted by Publius85

I'm just amazed someone could get angry over this...

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Cause it lowers their phat DPS probably. Which is stupid cause you already lowered your dps when you went and died.

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Originally Posted by Publius85

I'd respond but I legitimately can't comprehend what you're telling me.

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You essentially said that choosing to raise after a fight, and releasing and going through the shortcut, is a semantic difference. In this case, shorthand for saying it barely matters, since no one's debating quality of rhetoric here.

But it DOES matter, because taking the raise gives a significant damage and healing down debuff which last for two minutes. And both ways of getting back are equally short if you factor in rez-lock. Taking the weakness by raising can make the run take appreciably longer.

So anyone in that situation should just release and use the shortcut. Doesn't make the idiot tank you played with right, because they CHOSE to accept your raise lol.

I have personally Swiftcast+Raised tanks in the middle of trash pulls with plenty of time to save the rest of the group. It comes down to how much of the original pull is left and what level you are synch'd at. Enough oGCD AoE heals and you could probably just start spamming those until the tank can get back up.

Or, failing that you could try spamming heals on the DPS if the mobs are close enough being dead, until you get aggro yourself, hit sprint and start kiting the mobs in circles while applying some regens/shields to yourself, buying time for the DPS to kill the mobs (though this doesn't work if the group has 2 melee DPS in it though... works great on ranged, though!)

I have, though, seen healers hard-casting Raise and this should almost never be done unless you're in an 8man fight and you're confident the other healer can handle things meanwhile, and you're confident you won't have to suddenly move to dodge something. It can be done but you gotta be careful.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

You essentially said that choosing to raise after a fight, and releasing and going through the shortcut, is a semantic difference. In this case, shorthand for saying it barely matters, since no one's debating quality of rhetoric here.

But it DOES matter, because taking the raise gives a significant damage and healing down debuff which last for two minutes. And both ways of getting back are equally short if you factor in rez-lock. Taking the weakness by raising can make the run take appreciably longer.

So anyone in that situation should just release and use the shortcut. Doesn't make the idiot tank you played with right, because they CHOSE to accept your raise lol.

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You and I will just have to agree to disagree on what we consider a "significant damage and healing down debuff" is as well as how long we are perceiving 2 minutes to actually be. I'm not arguing that there is no stat penalty, I'm arguing the stat penalty is nowhere near detrimental enough to prevent you from carrying on with relatively no hiccups or add a significant amount of time to the dungeon run itself. Hence in my opinion it barely matters.

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Originally Posted by Publius85

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on what we consider a "significant damage and healing down debuff" is as well as how long we are perceiving 2 minutes to actually be. I'm not arguing that there is no stat penalty, I'm arguing the stat penalty is nowhere near detrimental enough to prevent you from carrying on with relatively no hiccups or add a significant amount of time to the dungeon run itself. Hence in my opinion it barely matters.

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You lose 25% of your main stat, that's basically a 25% damage penalty which is A LOT.

Let's say you do 10000 DPS, you'll be doing 7500 instead, it's a huge loss.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You lose 25% of your main stat, that's basically a 25% damage penalty which is A LOT.

Let's say you do 10000 DPS, you'll be doing 7500 instead, it's a huge loss.

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But the tank's DPS account for less than 25% of the total DPS to begin with so it means you lose 6.25% efficiency for 2 minutes: Which equal to 8.00 extra seconds.. I don't know where you personally draw the line to say something is substantially more than something else, but taking 10 sec to respawn + teleport back is already less efficient.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

But the tank's DPS account for less than 25% of the total DPS to begin with so it means you lose 6.25% efficiency for 2 minutes: Which equal to 8.00 extra seconds.. I don't know where you personally draw the line to say something is substantially more than something else, but taking 10 sec to respawn + teleport back is already less efficient.

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Less efficient on what aspect exactly? In any scenario raising someone when the enemies are dead or about to die is just a waste of time, mana and DPS, specially if it's not the end of the instance and the debuff will carry on to the next pull.

Also there are savepoints everywhere on instances so walking isn't a problem.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Less efficient on what aspect exactly? In any scenario raising someone when the enemies are dead or about to die is just a waste of time, mana and DPS, specially if it's not the end of the instance and the debuff will carry on to the next pull.

Also there are savepoints everywhere on instances so walking isn't a problem.

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A tank, having the -25% debuff, will still do some DPS. Taking a party of 4 as a whole, the lost potency of the group is reduced by 6.25% (giving the tank 25% of the party's DPS). Which mean the group would take 8 additional seconds to kill anything than they would normally.

So, the difference between accepting the raise and pulling the next set of mobs and not accepting the raise and teleport back and pull the next set of mobs is silly because you won't lose or win that much time.. Just the fading in/out of teleportation takes the bulk of that 8 seconds you try to win.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

A tank, having the -25% debuff, will still do some DPS. Taking a party of 4 as a whole, the lost potency of the group is reduced by 6.25% (giving the tank 25% of the party's DPS). Which mean the group would take 8 additional seconds to kill anything than they would normally.

So, the difference between accepting the raise and pulling the next set of mobs and not accepting the raise and teleport back and pull the next set of mobs is silly because you won't lose or win that much time.. Just the fading in/out of teleportation takes the bulk of that 8 seconds you try to win.

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You are giving a flat % of party damage without taking into account other factors such as DPS buffs, skill cooldowns, enemies remaining (which on AoE makes the DPS loss even bigger) etc. I think you understimate tanks damage.

Unless the difference is between saving or wiping the party, you shouldn't raise anyone when the fight is about to end.

From where did you take those numbers? (25% party dmg, 6.25% dmg lost and 8 aditional seconds)

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Just the fading in/out of teleportation takes the bulk of that 8 seconds you try to win.

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Raising also involves a brief blackout and being trapped in raiselock for several seconds. It is no faster than releasing and using the teleport if, as it was in this case, the party is literally standing in a cleared miniboss room. Taking the raise WILL make the remaining run slower.

Literally the only reason to take a raise, when you're down in a cleared mini-boss chamber with an active shortcut, is if having to click one extra Yes/No prompt on a shortcut is too much a damn chore for you.

Again, the tank here getting mad is funny and on the tank, because they could have turned the raise down.

If you die between bosses, yeah it's probably faster to just accept the raise.

PS: Also, if the party is about to finish the boss, it's faster for you to release before the fight ends. The healer can keep DPS'ing or keep the others alive to finish the boss, and you're ready to teleport to them the moment the shortcut becomes active.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

But the tank's DPS account for less than 25% of the total DPS to begin with

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Not from my experience.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Not from my experience.

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It should if the DPS are doing their job. At the end of a decent run where tanks and healers are contributing to damage in an effective way each DPS will typically be sitting at around 30-40% of damage done each, the tank about 15-25% and the healer about 5-15%. The larger the pulls, the larger the DPS share will be relative to the tank and healer. If the tank's numbers are higher it means that the DPS damage output is slower than it could be, or it was small pulls.

Back on topic, however, raising at the end of a boss fight isn't the best option. There's no difference in the recovery time between accepting the raise and taking the shortcut back since the shortcut takes you to the same place you died, so it's more efficient to take the shortcut then and avoid the penalty. Anywhere else, and raising becomes the more efficient option due to time lost running to catch up from the shortcut. Not that it's a large enough amount to yell at someone over or argue about in either case.

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Originally Posted by JeroenXP1

Today i learned the hard way not too use raise since this random tank in the dungeon told me not too in a rude way.. And i quickly noticed why cause of the debuff it gives.

So my question is if there is an actual use for this spell, like only in a raid environment ?

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Raise shall be use if the fight is not going to end anytime soon, even with debuff a extra pair of hand is still more dps than 3 person
Raise shall be use if the other healer have fallen in Raid and Alliance raid
if the fight is about to end, don't waste your swift cast, little bit running is healthy and keep you from "weakness"

btw, the tank is terrible who get mad because you use raise

Not to mention, that bosses when defeated will leave behind a Shortcut, which means there's no "Time Spent Running Back" and killing the last boss will auto-raise you if you're dead.

The only time you have to run back, is when there's a wipe.

EDIT: Well, ok. There's the Aetherochemical Research Facility, because there's actually 2 bosses at the end and getting killed on the first means a somewhat lengthy run back to fight the 2nd.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You are giving a flat % of party damage without taking into account other factors such as DPS buffs, skill cooldowns, enemies remaining (which on AoE makes the DPS loss even bigger) etc. I think you understimate tanks damage.

Unless the difference is between saving or wiping the party, you shouldn't raise anyone when the fight is about to end.

From where did you take those numbers? (25% party dmg, 6.25% dmg lost and 8 aditional seconds)

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Yes because those buff also affects DPS (when they are party-wide) or are given to DPS when they are single target. Also 10% more damage on DPS is (in absolute values) more than 10% up on tanks. DANCER does approximately 158% the amount of damage of a tank. If your tank does 1000, DNC will do 1580. Once buffed, the tank will do 1100 and the DNC will do 1738. That's 638 more. That's for DNC too..

25% of the whole damage is a fair if not generous approximation.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Raising also involves a brief blackout and being trapped in raiselock for several seconds.

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There's also a raiselock when you respawn, then you add the teleportation lock. But even if it's faster, you all arguing for less that 10 seconds of gameplay..

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Yes because those buff also affects DPS (when they are party-wide) or are given to DPS when they are single target. Also 10% more damage on DPS is (in absolute values) more than 10% up on tanks. DANCER does approximately 158% the amount of damage of a tank. If your tank does 1000, DNC will do 1580. Once buffed, the tank will do 1100 and the DNC will do 1738. That's 638 more. That's for DNC too..

25% of the whole damage is a fair if not generous approximation.




There's also a raiselock when you respawn, then you add the teleportation lock. But even if it's faster, you all arguing for less that 10 seconds of gameplay..

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You didn't answer my question so I'll ask again. From where did you take those numbers? (25% party dmg, 6.25% dmg lost and 8 aditional seconds)