I've heard they got a bunch of QoL improvements in 5.05. Especially in regards to Greased Lighting being easier to keep up. Being worried about keeping that up is one of the reasons I always overlooked the job. I always liked the look of the mechanic because it shortened the GCD, it was just worried about maintaining it. I also like the fact that they have a lot of positional, which I guess may seem weird because it just makes it more difficulty to deal optimal damage. It keeps you moving throughout the fight though which I like having to do because I naturally find it hard to keep my character still anyway.
Also I find the idea of looking at things like the primals and instead of using a sword or spear or magic just punching it. There is something innately satisfying in the idea of defeating powerful enemies through punches and kicks.
Is monk fun?
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08-10-2019, 11:58 AMCythilIs monk fun?
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08-10-2019, 01:10 PMPowercow
If you've never played it before, it's OK. A lot of the complaints is that Monk has regressed significantly since its inception with almost nothing to show for it, but it's still satisfying enough to play on its own.
For people who've played it for the better part of a decade, it's essentially just a worse version of 2.0's monk. Or 3.0's. Or late Stormblood's. Puts out great numbers though. Honestly if Monk wasn't one of the strongest jobs in the game right now I don't think there'd be many people playing it at all. -
08-10-2019, 03:18 PMDrayos
Well it started badly that’s for sure.
With GL forever lasting now thanks to form shift spam.
Positionals removed for 30 seconds with riddle of earth + 2 stacks of true north.
Riddle of flame no longer having a speed penalty
It’s become a lot more fun, stacks no longer irritate you and staying on 4 stacks forever is now completely viable.
I’d say monk has changed quite abit now into something much more enjoyable, although it is now considered more simple to play after 5.05.
If your interested in it I’d give it a go, a lot of people have now jumped on monk and it’s become a lot more popular then I’ve ever seen it, saying that I started the game just before SHB release. -
08-10-2019, 03:49 PMRufalus
I guess you could say the way it was QoLed to the extreme has had a bigger impact than any new abilities it received, so it's still fun but also same-old-monk a bit. Actually the only melee that I feel was changed in a significant way to improve fun was ninja but that job was also undertuned and headed for another significant rotational remake which may or may not reduce the fun.
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08-11-2019, 03:15 PMShurrikhan
If you don't mind a class even shallower than SAM with its core mechanics reduced into something a further QoL change away from complete removal, then I guess it could be okay.
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08-11-2019, 05:46 PMSilver-StriderIf said mechanic had any depth to begin with, you might have had a point. In terms of class mechanics, that of GL and Huton are both meaningless in doing anything but allowing MNK and NIN to be on par with other classes; You could literally make both GL and Huton into Traits and it would not change a thing for MNK or NIN. Mechanics like BotD and Enochian on the other hand, have very clear reward for maintaining their buffs. You could argue that GL and Huton help to build up Chakra and Ninki quicker but considering that you can still get those rewards without those mechanics, its hard to make much of an argument that those core mechanics are pretty lackluster as a whole. The only time GL was actually something more than a "keeping up with the Joneses" type mechanic was during the Tornado Kick rotation period in which GL could actually be used as a build up mechanic towards Tornado Kick in a semi-similar fashion as Geirskogul (sp?) and Foul, even if there was more to it than either one of those skills, but that died off going into ShB. So a QoL improvement to something that is now back to nothing but a simple "maintain or you fail" mechanic is better than just watching as time and time again we are punished for not having the proper tools to maintain our core mechanic as our 5 maintenance skills all fail to do their damn job in a practical sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Do I come off as stand off-ish? Absolutely because these QoL improvements were long overdo but now everyone and their mother is swearing, hand to god, that MNK is OP and needs to be nerfed now when the issue is more of the lack of balance on SE's part since they never took into account MNK with near 100% GL uptime. I mean, had they reworked MNK with these QoL improvements in place prior to ShB's and had adjustment MNK's potency accordingly, MNK might have gotten some actual depth to its rotation rather than 1-2-3 with oGCD in between and to be fair, there's still room for improvement on MNK considering how niche SSS and Tornado kick are, to say nothing of Fist Stances as well. -
08-11-2019, 06:11 PMRocketteAh, jaded monk friend. I recognize your name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
We fought, we got changes to Monk. It's still sorely lacking the care and attention other classes get every expansion but at least levelling will not be like dragging your own eyeballs over coal for new people like it was for us.
Is monk fun?
I think the person saying if you're new to it then probably - is correct. The rest of us have been hitting this same rotation for 6 years. -
08-11-2019, 06:16 PMShurrikhanThenQuote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
- Don't kill the TK rotation. Tune it so it's less clunky and less obligatory. GL can thereby actually be something more than a once-per-instance wind-up punishment for playing MNK.
- Fix the maintenance tools themselves and don't remove tools by which to rapidly regain GL.
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08-12-2019, 02:17 AMSilver-StriderThe Tornado Kick rotation was going to be DOA with the introduction of GL4 and realistically speaking, the only real change between ShB rotation and the Tornado Kick rotation is that PB went back to being a 2 minute CD and we lost Steel Peak and Howling Fist. Anataman replaced RoW in gaining an early GL stack in the opener and PB can still be used for the Tornado Kick rotation but the extra speed of GL4 is what makes it the DPS gain over Fist of Fire + GL3 and we can't really use the Tornado Kick rotation as a result, at least not optimally (personally not a fan of using PB for Dragon Kick>Bootshine spam but it is what it is).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Simply saying "fix the maintenance tools" is easy but actually doing it without streamlining GL is not. You can make RoE refresh GL upon activation in a similar method as BotD but then it just becomes a better SSS so then you need to rework that. There's no hope for Tornado Kick at this point as GL4 has completely killed that skill dead outside of the niche moments of impossibly long transitions (I'm looking at you Eden Prime) and it just needs a flat out rework as well. Anatamon on the move would be no different than Form Shift in its current state. How exactly would you fix GL maintenance in a way that doesn't simply boil down to it being MNK's Transpose given its current tools? SE had 6 YEARS to figure out something and they've ultimately admitted defeat and made it just Form Shift to maintain GL with skills that are now mostly filler until next Expansion sees them on the cutting room floor like so many skills before them. -
08-12-2019, 02:39 AMShurrikhanYou're trying to make it sound like TK's removal was unavoidable, but they went out of their way to kill GL, specifically changing it from costing 3 stacks to all stacks, on top of removing Riddle of Wind and doubling the recast time of Perfect Balance. They burned it, buried it, and nuked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Technically, the maintenance skills were all sufficient to the same extent as BotD was. Mere QoL improvements to RoE were all that were really useful. Don't require Fists of Earth and make RoE trigger on attack received rather than damage taken, such that it couldn't be screwed over by shielding. There. Done. Only two fights could cost me my GL3 in SB because of their lacking raid damage. They need only have each fight deal at least some insignificant amount over the jump as did all the other fights, and we've got GL from the fight's start to the fight's end.
"Replaced" really should be reserved for something that does at least half as good a job as the thing it's "replacing". When it comes to GL growth, Anatman does not. It's reliant on server ticks -- which you have only your HP bar to track, as player-benefiting server ticks are not timed precisely to DoT ticks -- and is available only half as often and at greater sacrifice.
"Only" likewise probably shouldn't be used for describing the loss of half of our rotational damaging oGCDs or core mechanics.
You're defending current design and admitting it needs a flat out rework in the same breath, all while acting as if GL can only either be completely lost to too great of punishment or reduced to the maintenance-spam it's become. Why? -
08-12-2019, 09:22 AMMetalwrath
It used to be fun but these 'QOl' improvements have just made the job very static and boring.You can do a lot higher dps now with the job wiithout any skill which is why its become more popular.
It's been my main dps since end of ARR.I was drawn to it because it used to be high skill high reward job and because of the changes they made this expansion that doesnt seem to be a factor anymore.
I wont be playing it this expansion as i cant see any possible way for them to bring it back to its former glory without a complete rework or the reintroduction of some of the skills removed.It's just not a busy job anymore compared to most other dps. -
08-12-2019, 11:08 AMSpeckledBurd
I still enjoy it and the recent patch undid the things about it that I found actively unfun or jarring (Riddle of Fire no longer slowing Monk is a change that should not have taken 2 years to make, but thank goodness it's gone) and they finally gave Monk a quality of life change to Form Shift that puts Greased Lightning management on the level of what Black Mage/Ninja were capable of for their own buffs. However, it's very very very stale at this point and for all that the Form Shift change was a godsend, the vast majority of skills we've gotten since ARR can be described as "obscenely situational Greased Lightning Management Skills" instead of new skills that we get to use consistently (case in point they made Riddle of Earth an obscenely long True North because it had become completely useless, which is another issue IMO).
If you've never played Monk before, most of that won't be a problem to you, but if you're a long term player there's still a lack of satisfaction with the kit's lack of growth. -
08-12-2019, 11:56 AMSilver-StriderBotD: Instant cast with a 20s duration upon activation that you could extend to 30s max. 30s CDQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
RoE: Refresh GL on taking damage. 60s CD
Anataman: Freezes and Refreshes GL. Can't move during the channel. 60s CD
SSS: Refresh GL upon hitting target. GCD skill
Perfect Balance: Ignore Forms entirely to build up GL. 2 minute CD (60s CD in SB)
Not a single one of those skills is comparable to BotD on any level at all. You even claim that you would still lose GL even if RoE would apply on being hit vs taking damage while DRG can potentially have almost double the duration of GL with BotD and can still refresh it before it runs out due to the CD on it being half the duration of any of MNK's maintenance tools so on both a practical and technical level, BotD is far and away the better tool for maintenance in comparison any of those on MNK.
Whether or not Anataman is better or worse than RoW is irrelevant. They both are used to accomplish the same thing, which is build up GL quicker and while Anataman is reliant on server ticks, RoW required 2 shoulder tackles to build up GL. RoW was awful for transitions when there's nothing to hit but Anataman works great there. They're different in their method but functionality was the same hence why I used "replaced" since you can do just that.
RoF had a slow down that made double weaving oGCD necessary. That is no longer the case and thus the extra oGCD aren't necessary anymore and while I'll miss Howling Fist and Steel Peak, I can live with their removal so long as we aren't handicapped for it, which has been rectified now.
I'm not defending current design, I'm arguing that GL sucks as a core job mechanic as it added nothing to MNK but at least the QoL improvements made it less of a chore to manage. The class will never be as entertaining as it once was during HW, when I personally found it to be the most fun, but anything to make the class flow better is a plus from me and if SE is done with throwing MNK nothing but GL management skills than maybe the class can actually see some actual progress to its rotation. -
08-12-2019, 12:31 PMShurrikhanI never claimed Monk has as good a maintenance tool in RoE as DRG has in BotD. I said that what few fights could not maintain GL, such as through Byakko's quicktime phase, also generally didn't allow for the maintenance of BotD, or indeed any other time-limited resource. Was RoE as good? No. Was it sufficient in the same fights BotD was? Yes. Thus, it was "sufficient to the same extent as BotD was."Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Heavensward didn't have RoF slow-down, either, and yet it had HF and SP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
5.0 Shadowbringers had RoF slow-down, and yet it didn't have HF or SP.
You can theorize whatever reason you want to the removal of HF and SP, but please do not argue causation off something that happened AFTER their removal. If we look at the history of the two aspects, there's not even a correlation.
Anatman gives 1 GL per minute during uptime. Wind Tackle-Riddle of Wind gives 2. Anatman sees use during downtime. Wind Tackle-Riddle of Wind does not. Anatman depends on server ticks. WT-RoW does not. Anatman prevents movement. WT-RoW are movement skills. They overlap only narrowly.
Anatman is far, far more alike to Samurai's Meditate than to RoW, except rather than merely drawing in an extra 120-128 potency on a good "fishing" attempt, it's a clunky but nigh-obligatory component of our openers. It is by no means a direct replacement. We lost RoW. We got Anatman. They do not compete for the same purpose, as one fundamentally supported an iconic need for uptime and use of GL as a true resource, and the other mostly stands as mitigation -- rather than encouragement -- for using GL as a resource. Anatman, in terms of design, is a means of removing TK from mid-combat, which is in turn a means of removing GL as a manipulable mechanic or anything more than a one-time wind-up punishment.
And that's my issue with it. It's built not to replace a capacity, but to carve it out so completely that the capacity is irrelevant. And all to do what? To then make SSS, Anatman, and RoE themselves irrelevant?
Any core mechanic will suck if it's purely a gateway to be trudged through rather than an actual resource to be worked around. It was the latter. And rather than doubling down on that, they effectively euthanized the mechanic and then put it on life support. And I'm not going to praise the band-aid fix for a problem they actively caused. -
08-12-2019, 02:45 PMSilver-StriderExcept it wasn't? You could instantly apply BotD right back with minimal downtime whereas MNK had to rebuild from scratch over again and even PB had a small wind up to it due to requiring several GCDs to get GL back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
There was also no reason to remove Touch of Death, Haymaker, Featherfoot, etc. but time has removed those as well. In HW, we had no means of preventing us from clipping Demolish early outside of using ToD and Fracture to delay it as much as possible. The delay become less needed with the RoF slow doing that for us naturally in SB and now with GL4, we can literally refresh Demolish after 3 Snap Punches with minimal fall off, assuming we don't have to back away for a mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
This is flat out wrong and honestly leaves me questioning your credibility to everything else you have just said as a result. Riddle of Wind gave you 1 GL stack; The 1st Shoulder Tackle under Fist of Wind would unlock Riddle of Wind, which was a second tackle that refreshed GL and granted the extra stack. It did not and never granted 2 stacks of GL. The fact that you got this wrong leaves me questioning whether or not you actually ever even did do the Tornado Kick rotation at all or are just inferring based on comments that you've read and if that is the case, you have no idea wtf you're talking about at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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08-12-2019, 02:55 PMKabooaAnd how many Tackles (and thus riddles) did you get per minute in Stormblood?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
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08-12-2019, 02:57 PMShurrikhanNot when, I repeat, you do not lose the stacks to begin with. RoE does not help you regain stacks. It helps you not lose them. I've made no comparison between the two skills' ability to generate their respective resources, only their ability to maintain their respective resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Technically, there was: a sub-1.85s GCD under GL3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Are you incapable of dividing events per minute to calculate "GL per minute"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
2 Wind Tackles-Riddle of Wind combos per minute (as they are each on a... 30 second cooldown) = 2 GL per minute. Anatman has a 1-minute CD and is only optimal up to a single tick of the server tick during uptime, i.e. 1 GL per minute. -
08-13-2019, 12:31 AMSilver-StriderBoTD was still far more forgiving and had nearly double the duration of GL that it was still miles ahead of maintaining itself than GL and any of its maintenance tools. If GL lasted 30 seconds then it wouldn't be so farfetched a comparison but 16s max uptime vs 30s max uptime, even in the event that I was able to refresh GL prior to a transition and getting hit within the 16 seconds, I was looking at a 2s different BEFORE DRG hit BotD to get an extra 20 seconds on top. It's still a flawed comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Except PB was on a minute long CD so to do the Tornado Kick Rotation on anything but in minute increments would be an absolute nightmare to actually pull off without being a DPS loss. The options were to get a weakened Demolish off due to having used Tornado Kick beforehand or having it land on a Snap Punch to minimize the losses, not to mention the reduced potency on the other skills you weaved during the build up to GL3 again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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08-13-2019, 01:26 AMShurrikhanWhat does generation matter to a maintenance tool if the maintenance tool is sufficient to maintain what it's supposed to maintain? For the third time now, I have never compared the generation of the two abilities, only their ability to maintain their respective resources. BotD is better, but when well used RoE can maintain GL in nearly every situation BotD can maintain BotD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Low SkS builds used TK per 30 seconds, not per minute. Even at a 1.82-second GCD, despite TK's scaling issues with SkS, I used TK 3 times per minute at a potency bonus over once per minute. I'm a bit shocked that you don't know this. It wasn't a nightmere so much as a faint Demo timing adjustment prior, easily dealt with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
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08-13-2019, 02:57 AMSilver-StriderOk, so this is where me and you differed so it caused some confusion. I went the High SkS build that would run Tornado Kick every minute as opposed to the Low SkS build so I wasn't aware that the Low SkS build ran it every 30 seconds. That is on me and I will admit to being wrong there, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I still disagree with RoE being on par with BotD as far as maintenance goes but I'm going to agree to disagree on that point.
I think the main issue between us on this topic though, is how we view GL. You view it as a resource, I view it as nothing more than a glorified trait. It wasn't a proper resource until the Tornado Kick rotation came into existence and it seemed like SE viewed that as an unintentional design that they backed out on, putting it right back to trait status, so while you feel that this was the wrong move, I feel like it was whatever, I just roll with the punches, no pun intended. Would I like MNK's rotation to be more than what it is? Absolutely, but I never felt that GL was the way it should evolve as I felt that's what the Chakra system/Fist Stances/Riddles should have been how MNK was fleshed out with and now that SE has stopped fiddling around with GL mechanics, maybe we can actually get that to happen now. -
08-16-2019, 05:55 AMShurrikhanTo be fair, you can run almost 3 TK per minute over time on a max-SkS build for greater dps than 1 TK per minute, so long as your ping is decently low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
It's less that I think GL was always a resource so much as that it always should have been one in some way, and needs its limited duration in order to maintain its urgency. But, I don't think it needs to be nearly so strong (and therefore punishing to lose) as it is now. We now bank almost a 68% effective damage buff (1.4*1.2) into GL, where it originally only granted 5% Damage and 5% Attack Speed per stack (later 7%, then finally the 10% we have now), a roughly 33% bonus at maximum. I've also always thought it should fall off one stack at a time, albeit perhaps at lower durations each time (12/10/8, for instance), and perhaps have means of rapidly generating at decent frequency much earlier in the leveling process.
Or, to put it most simply, I just don't think having other, potentially better, mechanics means we should leave the foundations haphazard and dull. The foundations, especially, should be solid.