RDM the unwelcome DPS :(

(I would like to preface this by saying I feel like NIN and DNC might have similar feelings on the subject but as I don't play either of the classes I cannot comment on them)
(Also I'm new to forums so if I mess up some wording, phrasing and terms I apologize for any confusion.)

So as a casual raider (I attempt savage with pugs every other patch cycle) I've hit a wall this patch with what I assume is people "meta-slaving" in the party finder. Ive seen quite a number of parties who will refuse RDM's due to their lack of DPS compared to other classes. The logic I see people applying to support their decision to not include RDM's goes something like this:
"RDM is only good if they can utilize their raise. But in any case raising should be left to the healers as its a DPS loss. IF deaths become frequent enough for verraise to gain value then the total party DPS is too low and we will wipe from enrage or another DPS check."

I understand that RDM's safety net from verraise definitely warrants having a lower maximum dps potential. (especially compared to BLM) But it's at the point where some of the community will shun RDM players because of the lack of damage they bring.
I just want the class I play and love to be accepted by the community, I dont expect us to be anywhere near the top of the dps classes but could we at least be given a chance?

Im not a theory-crafter so I don't know how to fix it but even something small, for example; making embolden affect all damage types could help us out greatly. (I know that Trick Attack is a point of contention for NIN and this is essentially give us RDM Trick. But Its an example of how a small change can make our kit go from unwanted by all to loved by the community)

Please let me know what other suggetions you have, or ways that RDM could be adjusted so we're not thought of as dead weight! (because we're not!)

(final disclaimer: I believe that if allowed to RDM can definitely complete all the raids. I don't think we're useless and I LOVE everything about rdm from its gameplay flow to aesthetic. PLAY WHAT YOU WANT CAUSE YOU ENJOY IT BUT DON'T TELL OTHERS THEY CAN'T PLAY BECAUSE OF THEIR CLASS!!!)

In all honesty our instant Rez doesn’t warrant low dps.

It’s a flawed support. Effectively what is above is true. The dps checks are so tight that if ur forced to raise enough for a RDM to be needed, u are going to wipe due to enrage anyway.

RDMs instant Rez’s is good for letting players see mechanics. But not actually clearing hence it’s prog meme status.

It’s a shame that their relunctence to change anything with RDM seems to be holding it down sadly, but yeah I don’t really see it fixed.

I don’t think SE really intends RDM to be Mained by players as such tbh

To be fair its only because now is the second week of the new tier,
once people get better gear RDM will raise in popularity as a safe choice to run the raid... or at least i think so

Embolden is the other reason RDM has lower DPS than either SMN or BLM, a 10% increase of physical damage for 5 seconds that's scaled down every 5 seconds, the only people this doesnt effect are the healer, but if you time embolden right to go in burst windows, its huge damage.

You also have to realize how mobile RDM is compared to the other 2 casters, it can move for free ever other GCD

I do not think Embolden is as strong as some make it seem tbh. It actually only effects yourself and Physical meaning other casters are not effected...
Also Stormblood Smn was the most mobile out of the casters and it had higher dmg (even higher then blm at some points)

Please dont misunderstand me, I dont disagree RDM could use some extra deeps, just stating how the devs see it. I will agree their damage is lackluster, and the inclusion of verraise hardly justifies it considering verraise is useless unless people are dying. Though I'm sure another point is probably how simple RDM is compared to then other 2 casters as well.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

To be fair its only because now is the second week of the new tier,
once people get better gear RDM will raise in popularity as a safe choice to run the raid... or at least i think so

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It works the other way around.

RDM is a prog job, it’s good for for the prog time of raiding. It actually falls off later on as it becomes less and less required as once it goes onto farm they generally bring a BLM

Once summoner is buffed up it will become the other option realistically haha

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Embolden is the other reason RDM has lower DPS than either SMN or BLM, a 10% increase of physical damage for 5 seconds that's scaled down every 5 seconds, the only people this doesnt effect are the healer, but if you time embolden right to go in burst windows, its huge damage.

You also have to realize how mobile RDM is compared to the other 2 casters, it can move for free ever other GCD

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RDM is the lowest RDPS in the game by logs with a value of 375.. while every job is 400+. Please read info before you spread it.

Black mage has 4 teleports on a short CD 3x instant casts procs and swiftcast. While RDM can only slide cast. That doesn’t make it that much more mobile comparatively.

I’m sorry but numbers logs and more proof these points mute realistically.

RDM is a low dps job because it’s aimed at progression and not farm. It’s brought for the fact he can instant Rez taking weight off the healers to increase how many mechanics you see.

The concept that BLM is a turret is a dying meme even mains such as sharply dressed man has said he feels BLM has become one of the more mobile casters.

Summoners RDPS is above RDM, it’s heal is higher then RDM and it has a Rez’s with a instant on 60 second CD

Brotherhood is a stronger version of embolden yet monk is the top damage in the game currently.

RDM isn’t buffed because of its instant Rez’s spam functionality.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

RDM is the lowest RDPS in the game by logs with a value of 375.. while every job is 400+. Please read info before you spread it.

Black mage has 4 teleports on a short CD 3x instant casts procs and swiftcast. While RDM can only slide cast. That doesn’t make it that much more mobile comparatively.

I’m sorry but numbers logs and more proof these points mute realistically.

RDM is a low dps job because it’s aimed at progression and not farm. It’s brought for the fact he can instant Rez taking weight off the healers to increase how many mechanics you see.

The concept that BLM is a turret is a dying meme even mains such as sharply dressed man has said he feels BLM has become one of the more mobile casters.

Summoners RDPS is above RDM, it’s heal is higher then RDM and it has a Rez’s with a instant on 60 second CD

Brotherhood is a stronger version of embolden yet monk is the top damage in the game currently.

RDM isn’t buffed because of its instant Rez’s spam functionality.

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Can’t edit

I meant it heals/Rez’s are weaker then RDM. Which is where RDM realistically shines comparatively

Our static SMN when RDM due to SMN just being in a bad spot according to them with rotation/job design. Personally I agree that RDM does too little damage with its... 'meh' utility. If Emolden didn't have dimishing returns as it lasted then I wouldn't have a problem with RDM damage... but for some reason its designed the way it is leading to thier 'utility' basically being... verraise, which as everyone has pointed out is useless if you don't die. Its good for PROG but bad for clearing.

As much as I QQ about SMN, RDM is pretty bad as far as dps wise. Why embolden is still just a physical things is beyond me lol, also they could use a bump up in some potencies. Honestly the caster role in general is just way to imbalanced because of the trash raise ability that should be a role ability or removed from the casters. RDM and SMN pay the price for a utility that goes unused outside of first day prog.

Embolden isn’t that good and neither is aetherpact so SE needs to take a round turn before soon enough people only want BLM.

I am considering switching jobs because of this notion that a RDM is "progression" job. No job should only be useful during a specific part of the raiding cycle. Savage in 5.0 makes matters even worse with stiff DPS checks in i450-ish gear. Raise is practically useless in a party containing a RDM because if the already lower DPS RDM is forced to raise, then their pDPS becomes lower and so does the pDPS of the recently deceased member that was perhaps making up for the lacking pDPS of the RDM.

Take E2S for example: It requires approximately 71k DPS to beat the enrage mechanic. If we assume we have competent healers/tanks as it pertains to DPS, then we can say that each tank does ~7k DPS and each healer does ~6k DPS. That means healers and tanks contribute approximately ~26k DPS and that number is generous. That leaves 46k DPS from the 4 DPS jobs. Each DPS job must then bring approximately ~11.5K DPS. For a RDM to bring this level of DPS in i450-ish gear requires near perfect execution on the part of the RDM seeing as how an i450 penta-melded RDM, according to the relative damage calculator, brings a average theoretical DPS of around 12K, assuming flawlessly executed rotations, before party buffs. What this means is that parties that choose to take a RDM with them must bring along meta-DPS jobs if they wish to utilize the RDM's raise to make up for the deficit that comes not only from the weakness of the recently deceased but also from the already low but now further decreased DPS of the RDM themselves due to the RDM losing damaging GCDs.

In short, the benefit of the RDM's raise is neutralized, as it pertains to actually clearing the Savage encounters, BECAUSE the group brought a RDM in the first place. Thus, in less than optimal DPS compositions, e.g., ones that aren't comprised of meta DPS and the RDM, savage encounters must be executed near flawlessly to meet the DPS barriers.

I'm not saying that groups with a RDM cannot clear savage because that is certainly not true and props to those of you that do. I'm simply saying that I understand the mentality of those that would exclude us. After all, why would you bring one when the supposed benefit of doing so is not likely to be realized when clearing savage content?

RDM needs either potency increases to increase their pDPS or changes to the amount rDPS they contribute so that they are an attractive option to bring on savage encounters, regardless of the status of the encounter (progression, clear, farm).

I apologize in advance if this post comes across as incoherent rambling.

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In all honesty our instant Rez doesn’t warrant low dps.

It’s a flawed support. Effectively what is above is true. The dps checks are so tight that if ur forced to raise enough for a RDM to be needed, u are going to wipe due to enrage anyway.

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Holy crap this is so true, I never looked at it that way. Well now that I’m thinking about it, it helps you see more of the fight and progress even if you do end up wiping. Once you start getting to enrage consistently it has very narrow usability. I kinda wish it was an optional thing we could trade in for more deeps when it’s no longer needed, without switching jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kejara

Take E2S for example: It requires approximately 71k DPS to beat the enrage mechanic. If we assume we have competent healers/tanks as it pertains to DPS, then we can say that each tank does ~7k DPS and each healer does ~6k DPS. That means healers and tanks contribute approximately ~26k DPS and that number is generous. That leaves 46k DPS from the 4 DPS jobs. Each DPS job must then bring approximately ~11.5K DPS. For a RDM to bring this level of DPS in i450-ish gear requires near perfect execution on the part of the RDM seeing as how an i450 penta-melded RDM, according to the relative damage calculator, brings a average theoretical DPS of around 12K, assuming flawlessly executed rotations, before party buffs. What this means is that parties that choose to take a RDM with them must bring along meta-DPS jobs if they wish to utilize the RDM's raise to make up for the deficit that comes not only from the weakness of the recently deceased but also from the already low but now further decreased DPS of the RDM themselves due to the RDM losing damaging GCDs.

In short, the benefit of the RDM's raise is neutralized, as it pertains to actually clearing the Savage encounters, BECAUSE the group brought a RDM in the first place. Thus, in less than optimal DPS compositions, e.g., ones that aren't comprised of meta DPS and the RDM, savage encounters must be executed near flawlessly to meet the DPS barriers.

I'm not saying that groups with a RDM cannot clear savage because that is certainly not true and props to those of you that do. I'm simply saying that I understand the mentality of those that would exclude us. After all, why would you bring one when the supposed benefit of doing so is not likely to be realized when clearing savage content?

RDM needs either potency increases to increase their pDPS or changes to the amount rDPS they contribute so that they are an attractive option to bring on savage encounters, regardless of the status of the encounter (progression, clear, farm).

I apologize in advance if this post comes across as incoherent rambling.

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This is a great point as to why RDM is bad. Its only useful for seeing more of the fight... after that point you should be swapping it out for another job. RDM should deal closer damage to that of SMN and also embloden needs a major buff. Remove the diminishing damage increase first. The physical change could be considered... but honestly that would likely only be increasing healer's DPS which SE would probably decrease the potency of the buff overall from 10% to 5% probably. ( I don't agree with the potency nerf)

I just feel like SE has literally stabbed me in the back by making the only job I find playable absolutely poop. Really SE, I've tried other classes and I just can't get a feel for any of them because of overcomplicated and time orientated procs that if you miss one you mess your entire rotation. I loved RDM because it wasn't that complicated and it felt right for me and it did pretty good damage when you weren't spending all your time fast ressing, but so many PF raid groups are deliberately omitting RDM, SMN and NIN because their damage is now ridiculously low and they can't beat the enrage timers. I'm even being asked to play another job because RDM isn't wanted in raids anymore. This really bites SE, you've made this game unplayable for me.

I only have Red Mage at level 72 but I can see why so many would feel unhappy with it. They seem to vastly overestimate what Vercure/Verraise bring to the party, because as with all healing abilities the better your party, the less you have to use them. So, from my inexperienced point of view, they’re taxing Red Mage’s damage hard, but then giving it abilities it doesn’t really want to use to compensate.
It’s a bit confusing. I love Vercure and Verraise and I’d hate to see them go, but at the same Red Mage does feel like it’s being punished too hard for having a heal spell and Raise. I mean, if they don’t want to increase its personal DPS surely it should at least have some raid utility to make up for it? I know there’s Embolden, but that doesn’t seem to be enough in terms of raid buffs. They could at least give it like Verbrave or Verprotect to give it something to offer when nobody needs Raise. And Vercure seems like more of a solo’ing spell than anything, since it’s considered bad practice to use it outside of extremely urgent situations because naturally you should be using your gcd to deal damage. As I said I love using it, but at the same time whenever I do I have to think to myself ‘is this healer gonna get mad at me’ lol

Remember when people hyped how good Raise was as a utility and how busted RDM is for chain insta-raising, that some BLMs complained that they should have Raise too? Yeah, that aged like milk.

At this point I want Raise gone from RDM and SMN. It's nice to have but it's not worth keeping if they're going to keep both jobs doing mediocre damage because of it. It's so niche and finds little use after progression. Both of their party buffs are also pathetic.

The balancing for caster DPS is even worse now with BLM overshadowing the other two, and only because of Raise.

Rez mage is supposed to be a joke to RDM, but it's all that's left as advantage of RDM. In SB I was fine with being mobile and doing middle ground dps, but the current state of RDM is trash tier. It's just a disaster to think meme became reality.

The Devs need to balance RDM similar to PLD.
If PLD use their progression tool he will suffer DPS loss, because he could be using on a Damage skill that costs the same MP. And PLD is the second best damage from the 4 tanks, less than GNB.

RDM could have a skill that costs the same MP as a Ress. That way RDM could be with a similar DPS with SMN, because if he uses his progression tool he will suffer a DPS loss, and will stay with the DPS similar to what he is now. I say not better than SMN because RDM still has the mobility.

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Originally Posted by Kejara

I am considering switching jobs because of this notion that a RDM is "progression" job. No job should only be useful during a specific part of the raiding cycle. Savage in 5.0 makes matters even worse with stiff DPS checks in i450-ish gear. Raise is practically useless in a party containing a RDM because if the already lower DPS RDM is forced to raise, then their pDPS becomes lower and so does the pDPS of the recently deceased member that was perhaps making up for the lacking pDPS of the RDM.

Take E2S for example: It requires approximately 71k DPS to beat the enrage mechanic. If we assume we have competent healers/tanks as it pertains to DPS, then we can say that each tank does ~7k DPS and each healer does ~6k DPS. That means healers and tanks contribute approximately ~26k DPS and that number is generous. That leaves 46k DPS from the 4 DPS jobs. Each DPS job must then bring approximately ~11.5K DPS. For a RDM to bring this level of DPS in i450-ish gear requires near perfect execution on the part of the RDM seeing as how an i450 penta-melded RDM, according to the relative damage calculator, brings a average theoretical DPS of around 12K, assuming flawlessly executed rotations, before party buffs. What this means is that parties that choose to take a RDM with them must bring along meta-DPS jobs if they wish to utilize the RDM's raise to make up for the deficit that comes not only from the weakness of the recently deceased but also from the already low but now further decreased DPS of the RDM themselves due to the RDM losing damaging GCDs.

In short, the benefit of the RDM's raise is neutralized, as it pertains to actually clearing the Savage encounters, BECAUSE the group brought a RDM in the first place. Thus, in less than optimal DPS compositions, e.g., ones that aren't comprised of meta DPS and the RDM, savage encounters must be executed near flawlessly to meet the DPS barriers.

I'm not saying that groups with a RDM cannot clear savage because that is certainly not true and props to those of you that do. I'm simply saying that I understand the mentality of those that would exclude us. After all, why would you bring one when the supposed benefit of doing so is not likely to be realized when clearing savage content?

RDM needs either potency increases to increase their pDPS or changes to the amount rDPS they contribute so that they are an attractive option to bring on savage encounters, regardless of the status of the encounter (progression, clear, farm).

I apologize in advance if this post comes across as incoherent rambling.

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Tbh I’ve considered moving job, no idea which way to go though haha. I’ve tried a few other jobs.

I got monk dragoon and machinist also to 80, and I got ninja summoner and bard to 72 haha

Was considering doing a SAM up, they’ve always looked pretty cool haha

I mained an RDM in Stormblood and all the way up to Shadowbringers.. Then switched to Dancer and took that to 80 first.. it looked fun and I loved the class, hated the low DPS.. so I switched to RDM again and got annoyed with the DPS and how sad it was the little attention they got from devs literally castrating their DPS over Verraise and Embolden. I mean yeah it wasn't phenomenal in Stormblood either, but at least it was fun and competative.. and mobility? whatever.. they gotta stop to cast just like all the rest. instant cast after a cast is nice but they still hurt for mobility. So I leveled a Machinist to 80 and had a blast, literally.. but I still missed the RDM. So I went back to RDM and leveled it to 80 as my 3rd job to 80. I started getting told groups had no room for RDM unless it was a roulette where they had no choice in the matter. I stuck it out and still loved it but got tired of doing so much less DPS...I switch back to Dancer and despite dancer doing much less DPS, I felt more accepted and people liked having me in groups. so now I have my Dancer into Savage Edens while my RDM, which I would like to play,. sits benched.. I just really wish SE would take notice and realize that Verraise and Embolden are NOT adequate balances to the lack of RDM DPS.. PLEASE SE.. PLEASE fix my favorite class!!!

This breaks my heart. Red mage was and is my favorite caster, then smn and ending with blm.. yet I feel blm is the way to go since both of my other two preferred choices need substantial help.

I really loved summoner but it's become such a convoluted mess and my carpal tunnel just can't deal with that. Black mage has a similar issue with needing SO many buttons to be properly keybound or I simply can't use them.. my carpal hates it as well. Red mage was a bit of a solace job because it didn't have AS many buttons to actively mash and was fairly compact, but I see little point in finishing it to 80 if it's SO unwanted. I can get not being on cutting edge rat races to firsts.. but we shouldn't be getting turned away because our numbers are THAT low.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Though I'm sure another point is probably how simple RDM is compared to then other 2 casters as well.

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I found BLM as simple as RDM, and how hard/how simple a job play should never be a consideration when come to balancing

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Please dont misunderstand me, I dont disagree RDM could use some extra deeps, just stating how the devs see it. I will agree their damage is lackluster, and the inclusion of verraise hardly justifies it considering verraise is useless unless people are dying. Though I'm sure another point is probably how simple RDM is compared to then other 2 casters as well.

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It’s simplistic design won’t affect it really.

Look at all the jobs they’re all slowly losing some of their difficulty each expansion. And I would not be surprised to see ninja and summoner become easier to play in 5.1.

I mean DRG, monk, bard, DRK and SAM got made easier to play this expansion.

Ninja and summoner got made harder but now getting a rework. Which may reverse that to then adding to the list of what’s gotten easier.

Then look at the new 2 jobs, both being simple and arguably dancer is easier to play then RDM :p

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

The Devs need to balance RDM similar to PLD.
If PLD use their progression tool he will suffer DPS loss, because he could be using on a Damage skill that costs the same MP. And PLD is the second best damage from the 4 tanks, less than GNB.

RDM could have a skill that costs the same MP as a Ress. That way RDM could be with a similar DPS with SMN, because if he uses his progression tool he will suffer a DPS loss, and will stay with the DPS similar to what he is now. I say not better than SMN because RDM still has the mobility.

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RDM already loses 422 potency just to cast Verraise.

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Originally Posted by FengZhou

Red mage was a bit of a solace job because it didn't have AS many buttons to actively mash

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Rdm has higher apm than blm i think:
https://i.imgur.com/MNACnQR.png

Also not convinced about low dps - sure it's low compared to blm, but to other ranged jobs? At least at the level i can play it's 240-450 for e1s and only 130-280 for e2s.
That said, i'm really struggling with finding reasons to not getting blm tome weapon first ^^

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

RDM already loses 422 potency just to cast Verraise.

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Tbh this, So many seem to forget we're Taxed in DPS in the balancing and then hit with a Potency loss Raising people, we're double taxed currently which is what blockades us into such a bad spot every tier after prog. Leave the potency losses to be the trade off for raising people. (or preferably Delete Caster Rezzs and give healers 2 Charges of SC)

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Rdm has higher apm than blm i think:
https://i.imgur.com/MNACnQR.png

Also not convinced about low dps - sure it's low compared to blm, but to other ranged jobs? At least at the level i can play it's 240-450 for e1s and only 130-280 for e2s.
That said, i'm really struggling with finding reasons to not getting blm tome weapon first ^^

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may aswell :P, once summoners buffed up, RDMs gonna fall Even Shorter :P

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

I found BLM as simple as RDM, and how hard/how simple a job play should never be a consideration when come to balancing

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and Yes this, Difficulty isnt taken into consideration when balancing Jobs, they balanced on their RDPS Value and Mobility.

People seem to forget why Options are created, why different difficulties are set. they are there for enjoyability, Some Players only Enjoy Challanging Activities its a Fact some poeple The concept of having to work REALLY hard at perfecting something is the reward in itself, its Not ment to reward u for doing it In a physical Sense however.

Imagine a World wherte Difficulty is the point of balance, Everyone would be clustered into those Job Choices.. which means U'd make Less Skilled players be even LESS Capable of the game, which will fall on ur Experience as they wont be capable to do anything meaning ur on a Loop of eithger Kicking them.. or trying to teach them. the idea of Easier jobs Lets a Less Skilled player take on a Easier Job. which means he himself becomes Fulfilled with what hes doing and u get a better team mate for it.

balancing on Difficulty will not only make Jobs obselete, but it'll tunnel Everyone through the same gates of Difficulty. which will be both a Balance Disaster and a Community Disaster not to mention the loss of players in the game.

Difficulty isnt a E-peen Measurement, its there for enjoyability and the more you promote a Agenda Which argues they should be the best in the game, the more likely SE Will take it from you. because SE Dont want u to know ur DPS Values to begin with or Share those DPS Values for these precise reasons.

this is why U get a %, this is the Rewarding Part of it, they compare u to players playing your job and Award u a Percentile based on it, that'll give u ur Level of Skill and ability on that difficulty, the fact someones playing a RDM over there and only alittle behind u in DPS isnt a "unrewarding Factor" its Simply how MMORPGS are. if that player is 50 Percentile Stronger for using a Easier to play Job and that nets u ur Kill On Titan Savage so what?.

I heard a streamer say.

"I love people that say RDM is too easy, while pulling 9 percentile Summoner Parses" and tbh thats very true and thats what a Difficulty driven Meta would cause. People taking the Top DPS Choices and Litterally stuck on 9 percentile parses.

A lot of people like to justify the weakness of RDM by parroting how easy it is. Now I'm not the most experienced player, and just got my second job to max level, but I already can't see how my RDM is supposed to be easier than my MCH. To play optimally on my RDM there are quite a few meaningful choices I have to make, while on MCH I have one or two choices while the rest is just scripted. I get the feeling that 'difficulty' to a lot of players is button bloat and self-induced arthritis. Honestly, it would be good to just emphasize the difficulty reds already have; i.e. make it lose more dps for making an incorrect choice, but do much better when constantly choosing well. (don't mistake me, I really love MCH and play it a lot).

To RDMs: never apologize or feel bad for your rotation being well designed and feeling crisp.

How to balance:

First of all, raise the potency so that we are on pair with smn.
Then each time we cast verraise we get a debuff that last 60 seconds and can stack each time we cast again raise, resetting the duration aswell:
1 stack nothing happens (since smn can raise too)
2 stacks we get -% dps
3 stacks we get -% so that we reach the point we are now... In this way i think it is perfect imo.

The problem about raise is that a skill that you do not want to use... So you can not compare its utility with devotion/trick attack or whatever... And embolden is far weaker than the other buffs.

Yeah in the end most high end content is raise=wipe so,
SMN and RDM is just paying overrated tax...
of course raise has its own use and helpfullness but the current dps difference didnt justify it... the greatest rdm/smn can loss to an okay blm...

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Originally Posted by SetStndbySmn100

A lot of people like to justify the weakness of RDM by parroting how easy it is. Now I'm not the most experienced player, and just got my second job to max level, but I already can't see how my RDM is supposed to be easier than my MCH. To play optimally on my RDM there are quite a few meaningful choices I have to make, while on MCH I have one or two choices while the rest is just scripted. I get the feeling that 'difficulty' to a lot of players is button bloat and self-induced arthritis. Honestly, it would be good to just emphasize the difficulty reds already have; i.e. make it lose more dps for making an incorrect choice, but do much better when constantly choosing well. (don't mistake me, I really love MCH and play it a lot).

To RDMs: never apologize or feel bad for your rotation being well designed and feeling crisp.

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tbh Requote because this is 100% true.

I dont ever feel bad realistically, Mostly because, If u look across the board, the Majority of Jobs arent that much harder then RDM the problem is, this Flex over RDMs will always Exist from SB, where Dragoons, Bards and more were harder to play. that and tbh, Aesthetically I love RDM.. i think it looks very nice overall and being a Sword Mage is awesome. reguardless of what people want to label it as.

i feel sorry for the people who get affected by the outcomes of these complaints, Because when u say "i have to work 3x harder for the same DPS as X Job."

SE arent reading "lets Imbalance our game to favor those who put more effort in" this would Reduce the population, Reduce the Population in Raiding enviroments and make that Curve into Raiding so much harder that PFs prolly will fall apart and more. They're not going to REDUCE the accessibility of their game.

their reaiding "lets Simplify these jobs Down to make THEM more accessible by these players". Leading to a Larger diversity ingame, More People taking these roles into Content, more people going up in Content difficulty Larger Population in game More Players going into Raids. Healthier audience.

the Moment u use Job Difficulty as a Flex, SE are going to see that negatively, Everytime u use Difficulty to Justify ur balancing idea, SE will read that negatively, Until People just flat Say the problems with their Jobs And what they feel is weak in them SE Will keep seeing the Wrong message ur trying to give when delievering Critism. Comparing ur Job to another in a Negative way to Justify something will ALWAYS look like ur asking for Simplification to a Dev Team.

As a community we need to stop saying "X Job Needs buffing because Y Job Does the same DPS and THis is why it shouldnt be a thing to".

"I feel Job X Doesnt have the Utility usuage to balance Out the Pdps they are currently putting out, i feel One side of this needs buffing as we're falling behind in DPS". Constructive Critism to the Problems of a Job and where u feel the problem is. not taking a Stab into the Next Audiences Job to push ur Narrative. which is what i see ALOT of players doing. and when this is a thing, u have to wonder are they picking the job they are Actually enjoying, or Picking the Job that they think makes them Look the best.

I know a raider who got into this wall, got her pretty hard in her selfsteem due to lack of communication of the party. She had a static, but due to circumstances now she has to resort to pugs to complete Ex and Savage. So far she has completed previous Savage succesfully, but due to this problem she could not even try a fight.

It goes along the lines of: "Kick this RDM", sometimes even witouth a word.

RDM needs a small buff and perhaps a further buff to Enchanted Reprise to further emphasize its mobility. Both RDM and SMN feel kind of lackluster compared to BLM right now, specially with how mobile BLM has become and how little Verraise/Resurrection help during low ilevel progression due to DPS checks.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

At this point I want Raise gone from RDM and SMN.

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No thank you. The capacity to save dungeon runs & 24 man raids affect more of the playerbase than those that worry about min-maxing for savage.

I get your concern, really, but you should never ask for removal.

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Originally Posted by XenabelleS

No thank you. The capacity to save dungeon runs & 24 man raids affect more of the playerbase than those that worry about min-maxing for savage.

I get your concern, really, but you should never ask for removal.

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Trust me, I don't want it removed either because of the same reasons (literally yesterday I saved a normal raid run because of it and it felt good) but I really disagree with the dev's decision to underperform both jobs just because they have it. I'm a casual player myself and not touching savage at all, but the discrepancy isn't hard to notice.

Obviously the best option is to instead buff both jobs accordingly but if they would rather not because of Raise, then I'd rather see it get removed or at least be limited in use.

The people that require certain classes to do this or that are not people I waste my time playing with.

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Originally Posted by jarlmcqueen

The people that require certain classes to do this or that are not people I waste my time playing with.

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Well it isn’t the only problem.

Currently with the dps checks so tight to what can be potientally done, lower dps jobs aren’t able to manage it.

They’ve designed a tier which just isn’t friendly to lower dps choices. But not bothered to buff the low dps choices

I do feel as though RDM could use a damage potency increase, but something along the lines of Veraero/thunder being up to 350 / Verfire/stone 300 / Jolt II to 270.

AoE's could use an up as well, maybe an additional 50 potency to tier II's and Impact to 300.

Something they could initially do too is have: Scorch automatically trigger: "Dualcast" which can up the momentum, by doing finisher and BOOM, going ahead to slinging in a Ver(Strong Spell) that's opposite to Verflare or Verholy.

So if White Mana is lower than Black >> Verholy >> Scorch >> [Verstone Ready +] [Dualcast] >> Verthunder or Accelleration to Verthunder, to continue rotation.

They'd probably have to reduce Corpse-a-corpse Recast timer to 35s or 30s, as I've been having issues with accumilating White / Black mana faster than the recast for CaC.

Just my two cents. I love RDM, and I've been doing more content on GNB than my favorite job int he game, so I'm hoping it gets some TLC soon.

Redmage and summoner need some potency increases and possibly a rework for raise. Doing E2S in pugs with current item level raise is a dead ability for clears or farm parties you just cannot afford even one death currently and i have been in dozens and dozens of pugs these past two weeks. I know pugs are not expected to do incredible dps so it's not the best argument but these two jobs paying the raise tax seems dated with such high dps checks. So currently raise feels like an ability used for learning fights not even clears or clutch rip.

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Originally Posted by Bayke

Redmage and summoner need some potency increases and possibly a rework for raise. Doing E2S in pugs with current item level raise is a dead ability for clears or farm parties you just cannot afford even one death currently and i have been in dozens and dozens of pugs these past two weeks. I know pugs are not expected to do incredible dps so it's not the best argument but these two jobs paying the raise tax seems dated with such high dps checks. So currently raise feels like an ability used for learning fights not even clears or clutch rip.

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While pugs should not be the ones used for balance, they are the ones that are the most affected by (the lack of) it, was just doing a mathematical experiment to see if in the case of everyone in a group getting a green (25th percentile) parse in fflogs it was a clear in ES2 (it was kind of a discussion I had with a friend), and if the dps check is 71k (I'm not sure about it) with the limit break a group with the 8 best jobs (replacing SAM with MCH because I'm not sure you can do it as triple melee) can actually do it while a group with the 8 "lesser" jobs don't even come close, the difference between going with the 8 best jobs in terms of DPS is over 4k (69997 vs 65780) and thus it can make the fight actually a lot harder for groups that are not very good, making it so that for a group with only meta jobs, everyone just needs to dodge being bad by fflogs standarts, while for a group with more struggling jobs people will probably have to play way better.