Dear Paladins

You do not need to spam Clemency every time you go below 95% health. You are probably annoying the crap out of your healer, please stop. :rolleyes:

Dear healers,

There’s already 1000 threads on this you don’t need to post new ones, please stop.

What’s more likely happening is the paladins are being left at low hp, see the healer casting dps spells and decide to take care of it themselves since the healer can’t be bothered.

Sometimes clemency heal us for much more than our healers...

Sadly I had plenty of runs where healer went "BUT MUH DEEPS!", so of course, I had to do it myself. Ended up being tank and healer both, while healer was just gimped dps - and no amount of explaining that healers do lower dps anyway so his contribution would be miniscule anyway would help.

*generates 200,000 global threat for easy mass pulling*

Healer: "StOp ThAt"

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Originally Posted by Makarrov

What’s more likely happening is the paladins are being left at low hp, see the healer casting dps spells and decide to take care of it themselves since the healer can’t be bothered.

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^This. Depends on the situation of course but if my health is dropping below 50% consistantly and the healer is ignoring me to spam DPS spells, I won't hesitate to pop Clemency once or twice as a last resort (especially if the enemy is hitting pretty hard). I won't sit there spamming Clemency otherwise though, as healers are there for a reason and having mained WHM I know how annoying it can be for a healer to have the tank making them redundant. So I can see both sides of the arguement here.

My priority though is to defend the party, and if that means having to take healing into my own hands if absolutely necessary then so be it. But I won't do it otherwise if the healer is on the job and keeping me alive, as that's just wasted MP, wasted time and making healers look unneeded.

Another reason for popping Clemency at nearly full health is to use Divine Veil, as it only activates if you've had a healing spell cast on you (in earlier times where my HP was near full in that situation I would just pop Cure instead as the amount healed would be insignificant and not impact the healer), but I would be still reluctant to do so.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

You do not need to spam Clemency every time you go below 95% health. You are probably annoying the crap out of your healer, please stop. :rolleyes:

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The only time I cast clemency is when the healer is shit.

If you are seeing Paladins cast clemency as a healer.. well... 1+1=?

I've never seen a PLD cast Clemency at 95% HP. Something tells me this is hyperbole. OP, if you keep seeing PLDs cast Clemency when you're healing, maybe you need to heal them more. Just a guess.

I worry when I see a good PLD use Clemency. I mean like when they know what they're doing. Something bad must've happened. I never call them out on it. Except for when I have Excog and it's there for you get below 50% and it times out and goes off when you're at full health. Especially now that I can Crit it and it can heal like 50% back if you let it go off.

If healers didn't have the "oMG a LoT of ENemIes I'M gONna AoE INsTeAd of HeAL" syndrome, PLD wouldn't need to self sustain.

I play tons of both roles. It's easy for me to tell when a healer is struggling. Sometimes healers will make risky plays without having a sense for the rhythm of the incoming damage. Sometimes they just won't be using their kits right. That'll make me Clemency.

People make mistakes. I'm an accomplished SCH, and I vividly recall one or two instances where a mistake I've made has forced a PLD to Clemency. I mean, I've killed tanks before. We all have. But in these instances, you thank god the PLD is on top of things, stabilize the pull, and do as much damage as possible to make up for it.

There's usually a way to turn that Clemency into a DPS gain for yourself.

There is a perfectly valid reason that a PLD might hit themselves with Clemency at 95% health, and that is to activate Divine Veil before partywide damage. I'm not sure why it bothers you so much. I play both WHM and PLD and don't get offended when I'm healing a PLD who uses Clemency. I know that they're probably doing it to make my job easier so I can focus on keeping the rest of the party alive (especially if they're comboing it with Divine Veil). That being said, I have never run into a PLD who was "spamming" it (outside of an emergency) and if your PLD is "spamming" it then you might need to reevaluate your own healing ability.

Meanwhile in the land of Gunbreakers:

"Huh, I've been sitting at 5% health for like three GCDs. Guess I'll pop Superbolide."
Healer: "I JUST USED A BIG HEAL."

What's clemency? The thing I use before pull to pop my own veil and the thing I use if both healers are dead and I think I can clear. That's what clemency is. Outside of pull you NEVER use clemency to pop your own veil. It lasts 30 secs and the shield is 30 secs long for a reason. Healers pop your veil in combat. If large raid wide is going out a SCH or AST are going to pop it using shields so don't waist a GCD and 2000 mp to do thier jobs in that instance. They are already doing it so as long as you hit veil they will use it.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

What's clemency? The thing I use before pull to pop my own veil and the thing I use if both healers are dead and I think I can clear. That's what clemency is. Outside of pull you NEVER use clemency to pop your own veil. It lasts 30 secs and the shield is 30 secs long for a reason. Healers pop your veil in combat. If large raid wide is going out a SCH or AST are going to pop it using shields so don't waist a GCD and 2000 mp to do thier jobs in that instance. They are already doing it so as long as you hit veil they will use it.

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I occasionally use it in combination with Requiescat. I better have the gang recover from a botched stacking and get them topped off, rather than letting the lone healer bleed itself dry in trying to do the same.

lmao if the paladin is spamming clemency i just take the opportunity to dps more. I never complain about it, they've obviously been burned before, and if they want to use their security blanket, i dont mind. essential dignity/excog/ lustrate/ bene will still be there when tbey run out of mana.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

If healers didn't have the "oMG a LoT of ENemIes I'M gONna AoE INsTeAd of HeAL" syndrome, PLD wouldn't need to self sustain.

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I don't like this mindset you're saying here, the healer was probably letting you get low then burst heal you back up, unless you would have actually died, the pld sustain is unecessary

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I don't like this mindset you're saying here, the healer was probably letting you get low then burst heal you back up, unless you would have actually died, the pld sustain is unecessary

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This. As a WHM I usually let tanks hover between 75-50 health depending on what I have and spamming holy, especially at the start to take advantage of the stun - but if I have Benediction I'll let them get close to 10% to make it worth. I'm kind of annoyed by PLDs using Clemency as if I didn't know what I was doing, but DF is a horrible place for both tanks and healers - I kind of get them not trusting each other.

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Originally Posted by Lynesse

I play tons of both roles. It's easy for me to tell when a healer is struggling. Sometimes healers will make risky plays without having a sense for the rhythm of the incoming damage. Sometimes they just won't be using their kits right. That'll make me Clemency.
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This. If I'm in a dungeon mass pulling, all my CD's are down, and I notice the healers struggling, I'd be stupid not to use Clemency.

A dead tank is a dead tank.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I don't like this mindset you're saying here, the healer was probably letting you get low then burst heal you back up, unless you would have actually died, the pld sustain is unecessary

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And how is the tank suposed to know that if the healer doesn't say anything? For good or bad we are responsable of the party so our survival is top our priority because if we die, the party will most likely die after us.

Our job is to survive, not to gamble if the healer will use his cooldowns or not.

I, too, get annoyed at a tank at least making some attempt to keep themselves alive. How dare they, warglbargl, etc.

I may need to see more context on why the Paladin is using Clemency. Most times, they seem to trust me healing and only do it on wall to wall pulls when it does become helpful to me. Even if I have the Excog put out on the Scholar, I have learned to treat it like an emergency buff. Tanks generally do not like their health dropping below 50% if the pull is not wall to wall. I once had a White Mage use Benediction until I reached around 10% HP and it generates a very freaky feeling that no other heals are used in favour of DPS until that time.

If I do get a Paladin using Clemency no matter what I do, I will probably just shrug my shoulders, give them a "Regen" and DPS more.

I've had plenty of times where party members are low on hp, healers are burning their mp to keep up, or just got revived. Clemency was useful in all those times to assist the healers. I take a slight dps loss in not being able to spam my spells, they get a breather. Sometimes that clemency has saved myself or a party member.

It just comes down to learning how the healer operates in the beginning moments of the fight.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

You do not need to spam Clemency every time you go below 95% health. You are probably annoying the crap out of your healer, please stop. :rolleyes:

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why is annoying ? I don't get it, I play as tank and healer ... in both situations still don't get it ...
cause you will kill mobs 5 sec longer ?

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Originally Posted by Dynia

why is annoying ? I don't get it, I play as tank and healer ... in both situations still don't get it ...
cause you will kill mobs 5 sec longer ?

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well. If you can keep yourself alive without my help at all, I can hands off and do my thing. But chances are PLDs can't sustain the self heal. So if I have to keep my eye on your health bar like a hawk anyway, I should decide when you're getting heals and how much. I can plan my heal rotation based on how quickly your HP depletes, it's impossible to predict when each PLD decides to heal themselves. Wasting heals suck. Wasting GCDs standing there because I'm not sure whether you'll heal yourself back up the next second or drop dead also sucks.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

well. If you can keep yourself alive without my help at all, I can hands off and do my thing. But chances are PLDs can't sustain the self heal. So if I have to keep my eye on your health bar like a hawk anyway, I should decide when you're getting heals and how much. I can plan my heal rotation based on how quickly your HP depletes, it's impossible to predict when each PLD decides to heal themselves. Wasting heals suck. Wasting GCDs standing there because I'm not sure whether you'll heal yourself back up the next second or drop dead also sucks.

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I played with many healers who left my hp to 20%, I should not use clemacy then too ?

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Originally Posted by Dynia

I played with many healers who left my hp to 20%, I should not use clemacy then too ?

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Honestly, fine, probably. If they end up letting you die, different story.

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Originally Posted by Makarrov

What’s more likely happening is the paladins are being left at low hp, see the healer casting dps spells and decide to take care of it themselves since the healer can’t be bothered.

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last time i trust a SCH i end up sleeping on the floor

and last time i run orbonne monastery, I end up solo healing

of cause those are extreme cases, but can't blame me for being cautious

especially since ShB more and more healer become "must DPS at all cost" and forget their first job

It saddens me that things like Benediction is designated as a "dps" tool to be abused to allow more time dpsing, when it's clear that the original intent of the spell is an "oh crap" button when things go sideways and someone is about to die.

Some of these healers need to think about the tanks perspective. We see our health drop to 10% or less, see the healer casting another Glare, what are we supposed to do? Just keep spinning and hope the healer is fast enough with that Benediction? Lord no. If the tank dies there's a good chance the tank will be blamed instead of the healer who wouldn't heal. And oddly enough if the tank decides not to heal and then dies, the tank does kind of deserve some of that blame because it could hsve been avoided if you had used Clemency, yet if you use Clemency to survive then the healer can claim they had you and you wasted time healing... basically damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I usually don't find that I have to but I will use Clemency if I end up below 20% and the healer is still DPSing. I've killed enough bossed where the healer died early to be confident in my MP usage.

Also to the healers in the 77 dungeon who yell at me for using clemency. Some of you realize your die in that fight cause you dont even heal yourself let alone me. So me be the generous PLD I am, will take on your role for you. I'll sacrifice my entire req window to insta cast clemency on all party members to keep them alive (and myself) for the entire fight.

Also for healers in savage content (or any content for that matter), if I'm casting clemency its usually to take a burden off you. losing one 250 potency attack for a clemency is better than me being auto'd to death and then the boss kills all of you. Additionally you know that healers heal about the same at 80 as they did at 70 right?

I'll take my 72K crit clemency over three 20K crit lustrates (enjoy your energy drain you green dps you)

in closing: healing isnt hard...you just have to...you know...push the heal buttons.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

It saddens me that things like Benediction is designated as a "dps" tool to be abused to allow more time dpsing, when it's clear that the original intent of the spell is an "oh crap" button when things go sideways and someone is about to die.

Some of these healers need to think about the tanks perspective. We see our health drop to 10% or less, see the healer casting another Glare, what are we supposed to do? Just keep spinning and hope the healer is fast enough with that Benediction? Lord no. If the tank dies there's a good chance the tank will be blamed instead of the healer who wouldn't heal. And oddly enough if the tank decides not to heal and then dies, the tank does kind of deserve some of that blame because it could hsve been avoided if you had used Clemency, yet if you use Clemency to survive then the healer can claim they had you and you wasted time healing... basically damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I usually don't find that I have to but I will use Clemency if I end up below 20% and the healer is still DPSing. I've killed enough bossed where the healer died early to be confident in my MP usage.

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That’s how I’ve always seen those type of abilities. They’re for emergencies. At the bleeding edge they can used to push limits but those tactics aren’t necessary in dungeons. When playing with random people it seems like most people won’t bother to even greet the party, let alone communicate how they plan to do anything. May as well keep a good margin for error instead of letting people get low enough they’ll die to the next roomwide aoe just so you don’t “waste” a cooldown.

If I'm the healer and you use Clemency during big pulls and/or giving me time to DPS, I'll be a happy person because I know you're pressing your buttons.

My apologies, I'll stop.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

You do not need to spam Clemency every time you go below 95% health. You are probably annoying the crap out of your healer, please stop. :rolleyes:

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Dear healers. If you are gonna dps more than heal, then i will heal myself. Either deal with it or don't play a healer.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

It saddens me that things like Benediction is designated as a "dps" tool to be abused to allow more time dpsing, when it's clear that the original intent of the spell is an "oh crap" button when things go sideways and someone is about to die.

Some of these healers need to think about the tanks perspective. We see our health drop to 10% or less, see the healer casting another Glare, what are we supposed to do? Just keep spinning and hope the healer is fast enough with that Benediction?

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Healers in this game, now more than ever, have incredibly strong OCD healing abilities. When they're able to bring the tank from almost 0 HP to full (or at least safe) in one OCD (or other instant heal), the optimal and logical way to play is to let the tank drop there while using your globals on DPS casts and then hit that OCD button when it's needed. It is a vital part of healer gameplay to gauge the amount of incoming damage and plan your healing accordingly in a way that you're able to push DPS as much as possible. It's a healer's job and they should be trusted with it, since it can be very frustrating if the tank starts messing up the process with their own 'emergency' heals (real emergencies are of course a different matter, but those rarely happen in dungeons). It's like the tank's job is to plan the pulls according to their and the group's capability, and if someone starts to pull for them and mess up their plan, they get annoyed. Trust your healer, it's their job to plan and handle the healing. The worst thing that may happen is that you die and there might be a wipe, but that rarely happens (at least when I'm tanking or healing).

Also, Benediction has a 3 minute cooldown, it's the strongest healing ability in the whole game, and you're able to use it several times on a dungeon run. Deciding not to use it because there might be an 'emergency' (how often do those even happen in dungeons?) would be just silly. It would be like a Paladin who doesn't use Hallowed on the biggest pulls because 'they might need it later' (if not on the biggest pulls, when?!), ridiculous.

I think it would do good for some of the tanks here to also try healing dungeons a bit, might offer a new perspective that could also improve their tanking. :)

@ Taika

We are talking more about a PuG situation. The planning of letting a tank drop in health to DPS more works more better when both of you are in Discord communicating with each other. When we have a PuG healer instead, we do not know if they are doing what you are talking about or if they are looking at Netflix while spamming Dia and Glare. The healer could very well be a new or rusty player and need to warm up with the basic spells as another possibility. It's not to say Benediction has no place for use though. It can be used in conjunction with Hallowed Ground on wall to wall pulls as you stated.

I can agree with tanks trying out a healer to know what their perspective is like. Please use and stagger your defense cooldowns if you plan to make big pulls. White Mage has more than just Benediction anyways, so they likely don't have to rely on it that much. We have Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, Tetragramaton as well as the lily heals. My use in Medica 2 HoTs greatly dropped past level 50 since Assize with Plenary Indulgence + Medica often handles the problem good enough. I still have the habit of using Regen, but I have opted not to use it at times because the tank is taking so little damage in relation to my off global heals.

I always keep 1-2 tricks for emergencies in DF, you never know how well play the 3 random stranger you pair with.
I agree we should push to optimal when running with premade. However, I have come across many time I sleep on the floor either because the tank or the healer want to “push to the limit” in DF. In simple way of saying “I do not fully trust other players in DF”

Just gona leave this here

https://i.imgur.com/ZrvyBVM.png

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Originally Posted by Tigore

We are talking more about a PuG situation. The planning of letting a tank drop in health to DPS more works more better when both of you are in Discord communicating with each other.

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I too am talking about PUGs, it's the standard healer playstyle to let your tank drop low and use big instant heals to bring them back up safely. Constantly keeping your tank above 50% HP is ineffective and bad healer play in any situation, and shouldn't be encouraged, much less demanded by tanks. Just focus on handling your own role and trust people to handle theirs. :) Then, if it turns out they can't, you can adjust.