MCH 5.05 adjustments are totally out of touch with the game

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...393/image0.jpg

This is your huge adjustment to the class? How out of touch can you be?

This fixes absolutely none of the problems with the class. True, it will cause less rotational problems with skill speed... EXCEPT WILDFIRE WILL STILL CAUSE THEM! Wildfire is just as married to the gcd rotation as Reassemble is. Why didn't Wildfire recast time get reduced the same? We still have to use Wildfire between Drills and Air Anchors which means delaying them or delay Wildfire. This is garbage!

And ping problems got no fixes. How long has it been since we've been complaining about those? Where are the fixes for those issues? How long are you going to ignore actual problems with the class?

I'm so done with this. Do you really hate Machinists so much that feedback continues to be ignored after so long?

At least reduce Wildfire and Barrel Stabilizer cooldowns to 110 seconds to make them align with this change.

Problems that remain unfixed:
- Heat Blast 1.5s recast doesn't allow enough room for latency for reliable oGCD weaving with current animation locks.
- Recast reduction of Gauss Round and Ricochet causes overcapping issues if weaving is avoided in Hypercharge because of previous problem.
- Flamethrower is extremely weak to the point of being almost useless.
- Barrel Stabilizer overcaps heat when used on cooldown.
- Wildfire recast causes conflicts with Drill and Air Anchor cooldowns at higher skill speeds.
- Drill and Air Anchor have increased delay in damage application which makes them hard to use in Wildfire.

It's a nice touch, I know that Reassemble regularly would force me to delay Drill a bit, or come off cooldown half a second after I needed to push the button. But yeah, it's not exactly what MCH needed.

None of the other physical range dps were touched. I'm assuming they will come in 5.1 MCH was reworked and DNC is new, maybe they wanted more time to work things out.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...393/image0.jpg

This is your huge adjustment to the class? How out of touch can you be?

This fixes absolutely none of the problems with the class. True, it will cause less rotational problems with skill speed... EXCEPT WILDFIRE WILL STILL CAUSE THEM! Wildfire is just as married to the gcd rotation as Reassemble is. Why didn't Wildfire recast time get reduced the same? We still have to use Wildfire between Drills and Air Anchors which means delaying them or delay Wildfire. This is garbage!

And ping problems got no fixes. How long has it been since we've been complaining about those? Where are the fixes for those issues? How long are you going to ignore actual problems with the class?

I'm so done with this. Do you really hate Machinists so much that feedback continues to be ignored after so long?

At least reduce Wildfire and Barrel Stabilizer cooldowns to 110 seconds to make them align with this change.

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I disagree.

Ping issues have flooded every job that’s ever passed 40 CPM, in STormblood it was the exact same.

It sucks for high ping players yeah, but you can’t honestly expect every job in the game to be dropped in pace for high ping issues.

This would be like if I said “my pc is below today’s standards so can you drop the overall graphics of the game to improve my fps” it doesn’t work like that. It gives you options to reduce the graphics by amount of you still can’t fit it you can’t play.

Jobs are the same, there are many jobs that both do and don’t cater to high pings, u can’t expect 100% of the audience to swallow the bullet of slower gameplay for the sake of people with high ping.

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Originally Posted by Abel_Fletcher

None of the other physical range dps were touched. I'm assuming they will come in 5.1 MCH was reworked and DNC is new, maybe they wanted more time to work things out.

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I doubt it, I think it’s a case of SE knew from the start this wouldn’t be ping friendly. And it was likely never ment to be.

How does anyone honestly believe Yoshi looked at it and thought it’d be oki. It’s quite clearly intended to be the way it is

The same as ninja. Again a very high CPM job which faulters to high ping.

Yoshi did say there will be some stuff high ping just won’t manage, he only promised to make the game playable uptoo 200MS and that doesn’t rly include his standards on jobs. Because there’s multitiudes of them so it’s affordable to have jobs which won’t be playable by everyone.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

I disagree.

Ping issues have flooded every job that’s ever passed 40 CPM, in STormblood it was the exact same.

It sucks for high ping players yeah, but you can’t honestly expect every job in the game to be dropped in pace for high ping issues.

This would be like if I said “my pc is below today’s standards so can you drop the overall graphics of the game to improve my fps” it doesn’t work like that. It gives you options to reduce the graphics by amount of you still can’t fit it you can’t play.

Jobs are the same, there are many jobs that both do and don’t cater to high pings, u can’t expect 100% of the audience to swallow the bullet of slower gameplay for the sake of people with high ping.

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The problem isn't ping with this change, it's because how the job interacts with skillspeed which they seemingly love to shove in our face. Ping is one factor, but they basically did a 50% fix. REA is a nice touch, but Barrel Stab and Wildfire could have benefit from this change as well, and if the Savage gear has even more sks, it just is painful to misalign things.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Jobs are the same, there are many jobs that both do and don’t cater to high pings, u can’t expect 100% of the audience to swallow the bullet of slower gameplay for the sake of people with high ping.

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But you can have fast gameplay without latency problems, look at dancer dances. They could easily solve the latency problems by reducing animation locks a little bit or making Heat Blast just a quarter second slower, or by using the charge system, or any other number of solutions. There ARE solutions, ones that don't impact fast gameplay negatively, they just refuse to acknowledge the problems because the Japanese player base plays with 5 ms latency.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

But you can have fast gameplay without latency problems, look at dancer dances. They could easily solve the latency problems by reducing animation locks a little bit or making Heat Blast just a quarter second slower, or by using the charge system, or any other number of solutions. There ARE solutions, ones that don't impact fast gameplay negatively, they just refuse to acknowledge the problems because the Japanese player base plays with 5 ms latency.

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Dancer is a 35 CPM job.

Machinist is a 43.

Your comparing completely different things here. As I stated at the start jobs over 40cpm

SB monk, current ninja and machinist

All are high ping intolerant.

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Originally Posted by XaiQ

The problem isn't ping with this change, it's because how the job interacts with skillspeed which they seemingly love to shove in our face. Ping is one factor, but they basically did a 50% fix. REA is a nice touch, but Barrel Stab and Wildfire could have benefit from this change as well, and if the Savage gear has even more sks, it just is painful to misalign things.

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While I agree on that half, one of the complaints in the OP is to do with the ping problems that can come with current machinist.

Which is true. It’s not a ping friendly job, but I don’t think anyone can honestly believe it was made to be so.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

CPM

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CPM is totally irrelevant to ping problems. It depends entirely how the casts are implemented. Correlation does not imply causation.

I'm also complaining about ping problems because they were reported over a year ago in great length with multiple solutions to the problems. We were told to be patient for 5.0 changes and then they made the problems worse. It's extremely frustrating when valid feedback goes ignored, especially when it impacts a large portion of the player base.

Yup, there is lot of thigns I dont understand tbh. One of them is the +20 potency on -single- target spells under hypercharge. Just make heatblast 220, if we arent supposed to use any other spell under HC, there is no point to it.

There could be mechanics like drill giving back charge of both gauss/Rico, but preventing the use of ogcd during HC (would make sense in a lore standpoint, being overheated preventing us to use some spells) and just buffing the damage loss by those ogcd to heatblast (370) that would lead to as many CPM but used during moment where weaving isn't an issue.

They said SB mch was too obscure because it was unclear how to manage the heat, so they made it simpler, but I think having to overcap heat or have to get an awkward rotation if we dont is way worse. on top of the battery usage being even worsen having to know the timer for each gauge, if we actually want to have it played "best". I dont even know why because you dont even feel rewarded by playing it well, when you see dragoons and monk being higher with their raid buffs.

The ping issue is less a problem than in SB, but it's still is, at that point I dont even expect anything to change, or mch to be worth it in one expansion before the X.5

Edit: And I would sell everything to get back rook instead of Queen, if the boss move too much and it already roller dashed, it has to move toward it, leading to some awkward no arm punch/no pile bunker, which happens too if you use it on add phase and the add dies, with the time for it to actually target again, which wouldn't happen with rook.

PS: the reassemble buff is so awkward, having to sit on it when you played 2 years of: press the cd as soon as it's up becasue strict rotation

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

CPM is totally irrelevant to ping problems. It depends entirely how the casts are implemented. Correlation does not imply causation.

I'm also complaining about ping problems because they were reported over a year ago in great length with multiple solutions to the problems. We were told to be patient for 5.0 changes and then they made the problems worse. It's extremely frustrating when valid feedback goes ignored, especially when it impacts a large portion of the player base.

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LOL Wut? actually it really is.

Double weaving = high APM, Also causes problems at a high ping.

Weaving on a Reduced GCD = high APM, Also causes problems at high Ping.

Weaving on 2.5GCD = higher APM, Also causes Problems at high Ping.

Burst Windows = higher APM, Also causes problems at high ping.

how can u honestly say its not relevent?, its Litterally the PACE OF THE JOB U CANT MATCH DUE TO DELAYED ATTACKS DOWN TO PING, this Is the route of your Problems, theres a Reason things like RDM are NOT punished with a high Ping, its because the job doesnt Double Weave, barely Single weave and on a static 2.5GCD.

its the Weaving of Gauss and Rico during Overheat which is Causing the problem. but this is also a large Factor in its APM. so no, its DIRECTLY the components giving the job its FASTER PACE AND APM which is contributing to thr whole problem. as If Gauss and Rico DID NOT EXIST, u wouldnt have a problem.

if ur Ping is that bad u cant even use abilitys on a 1.5GCD then ur Pings above the Maximum Yoshi actually set, which was he promised to make the game playable uptoo 200MS however did state not all jobs would be perfect above 120 :P

What? McH is the best it's ever been and the give you a even shorter CD for every 3rd drill and YOU STILL COMPLAIN? If a representative from square is reading this, disregard everything he said, he is talking out of the side of his neck.

Honestly all MCH needs in my eyes is some potency buffs for it to be on par with BLM & SAM.

Dunno why MCH was even touched. Only issue I have with it is Flamethrower being very niche where it barely pulls ahead. And contributes nothing to either gauge.

It's sole buff this patch is to align Drill with Reassemble. 18x3 = 54 seconds. They made Reassemble 55 seconds so it lines up perfectly.

What I was hoping for:

• Scale Reassemble with GCD speed atop the slight initial CD reduction. There, SkS problems fixed. It's up for every third Drill.
• Swap Hypercharge to a 35% Attack Speed increase on your next 6 shots over the next 15 seconds; Heat Blast and Auto-crossbow still only unlocked during this time, but no longer have inherently shorter or fixed recast times.
• Flamethrower now simply pauses, rather than ending, during movement, and is instead ended only by pressing Flamethrower again. Potency increased by ~20%.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

It's sole buff this patch is to align Drill with Reassemble. 18x3 = 54 seconds. They made Reassemble 55 seconds so it lines up perfectly.

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Drill is 20. It's just affected by GCD speed while Reassemble is not.

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Problems that remain unfixed:
- Heat Blast 1.5s recast doesn't allow enough room for latency for reliable oGCD weaving with current animation locks.
- Recast reduction of Gauss Round and Ricochet causes overcapping issues if weaving is avoided in Hypercharge because of previous problem.
- Flamethrower is extremely weak to the point of being almost useless.
- Barrel Stabilizer overcaps heat when used on cooldown.
- Wildfire recast causes conflicts with Drill and Air Anchor cooldowns at higher skill speeds.
- Drill and Air Anchor have increased delay in damage application which makes them hard to use in Wildfire.

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- This is true, with ping attempting to weave between Heat Blast will cause clipping, losing one Heat Blast. A problem, but can be worked around, by not weaving between Heat Blasts, since the oGCDs have no additional effect during Wildfire or Hyperdrive

- This is true too, but able to be compensated for by ensuring your charges are as close to absolute 0 as possible. Doing this, best case scenario you avoid capping completely, worst case scenario you lose a few seconds of a charge. Annoying as it means with ping you can't play 100% optimally, but not really much of a loss. Way better than SBs forced weaving for Wildfire to be sure.

- Flamethrower is actually pretty good right now. Still needs some QoL improvements considering its large cooldown but it's better AoE than Spread Shot. Sure, you don't autoattack during it, sure you don't generate heat, but it's still a solid ability to use on large aoe pulls provided Bioblaster still has 10+ seconds on CD, you don't have 50+ heat for Autocrossbow, and you know you won't need to move. Heat generation is barely an issue right now, too, so that's not much of a loss either. Still could use a little improvement as I mentioned but far from useless.

- Barrel Stabilizer, I believe, isn't something you should use on CD. It's so you can ensure you have 50 heat exactly when you need it, such as when Wildfire comes up. Heat generation is such a non-issue right now that not using Barrel Stabilizer on CD is perfectly acceptable.

- This is more an issue with the way Hyperdrive works right now imo. If Hyperdrive gave all weaponskills a 1.5 recast rather than just activating Heat Blast, you could slip Drill and Anchor into the Hyperdrive rotation. Alas, it doesn't work that way, as such it causes conflicting CDs.

- This is also true. You need to follow up Hyperdrive rotation with a normal shot when using Wildfire, as Anchor and Drill are too slow. A byproduct of the above issue.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

Edit: And I would sell everything to get back rook instead of Queen, if the boss move too much and it already roller dashed, it has to move toward it, leading to some awkward no arm punch/no pile bunker, which happens too if you use it on add phase and the add dies, with the time for it to actually target again, which wouldn't happen with rook.

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Actually while kiting treasure map mobs around I noted the queen will use every opportunity to roller dash its target if there's a little space between it and its target. If the boss moves at the wrong time there's certainly a risk of losing pile bunker though. That could easily be fixed by giving it a ranged finisher instead. A rocket punch or something.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

- This is more an issue with the way Hyperdrive works right now imo. If Hyperdrive gave all weaponskills a 1.5 recast rather than just activating Heat Blast, you could slip Drill and Anchor into the Hyperdrive rotation. Alas, it doesn't work that way, as such it causes conflicting CDs.

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If you change Hyperdrive to give all weaponskills 1.5 recast then you may as well remove heat blast and auto-crossbow. Heat Blast simply would not compare to drumming your normal rotation and auto-crossbow becomes redundant. It is clear only Heat Blast and auto-crossbow were set to have this to even have a point to exist. As there really is no heat management like there was in SB and auto-crossbow was to give a reason to use hypercharge in aoe situations.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

If you change Hyperdrive to give all weaponskills 1.5 recast then you may as well remove heat blast and auto-crossbow. Heat Blast simply would not compare to drumming your normal rotation and auto-crossbow becomes redundant. It is clear only Heat Blast and auto-crossbow were set to have this to even have a point to exist. As there really is no heat management like there was in SB and auto-crossbow was to give a reason to use hypercharge in aoe situations.

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I agree with you, but there is already a pointless factor to Hyperdrive. All single target weaponskills get +20 potency while Hyperdrive is in effect, despite the fact that you only ever use Heat Blast or Autocrossbow during it. To me this gives the impression that they originally intended for it to give all weaponskills a 1.5s recast, but somewhere along the way they decided to repurpose it for Heat Blast instead. It feels like an afterthought.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

Yup, there is lot of thigns I dont understand tbh. One of them is the +20 potency on -single- target spells under hypercharge. Just make heatblast 220, if we arent supposed to use any other spell under HC, there is no point to it.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

I agree with you, but there is already a pointless factor to Hyperdrive. All single target weaponskills get +20 potency while Hyperdrive is in effect, despite the fact that you only ever use Heat Blast or Autocrossbow during it. To me this gives the impression that they originally intended for it to give all weaponskills a 1.5s recast, but somewhere along the way they decided to repurpose it for Heat Blast instead. It feels like an afterthought.

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Hypercharge: Lv 30
Heat Blast: Lv 35

This game is all about the adventure. This is the reason why the game is story based. As well in duty finder you can easily drop to lower level. Endgame is not the only way of enyoing a class or the game.

The +20 Potency is the first unlock mechanism at lv 30 which makes your character feeling stronger. This is the reason and it is far beyond being "pointless". Just that you use a 200+20 Skill after Lv 35 doesn't mean the mechanic itself is pointless on your MCH way.

Next time please have first a look to the full class and not only max Level. SE needs to serve MCH from Lv 30 until Lv 80 not just Lv 80 must feel good.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

If you change Hyperdrive to give all weaponskills 1.5 recast then you may as well remove heat blast and auto-crossbow.

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Heat Blast deals effectively 350 damage by trimming off half each of two 150-potency CDs' recasts atop its initial 200 potency. You'd then be trading Heat (nearly half a Hypercharge) for raw potency (an additional 250 over the duration). Small adjustments ought to be made at that point, but HB wouldn't exactly be dead in the water over such a change.

Auto-crossbow would then either need a damage buff (buffing MCH AoE) or simply to replace Spread Shot under Hypercharge, with only single-target skills being affected prior to learning Auto-crossbow.

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Originally Posted by Lantia

Hypercharge: Lv 30
Heat Blast: Lv 35

This game is all about the adventure. This is the reason why the game is story based. As well in duty finder you can easily drop to lower level. Endgame is not the only way of enyoing a class or the game.

The +20 Potency is the first unlock mechanism at lv 30 which makes your character feeling stronger. This is the reason and it is far beyond being "pointless". Just that you use a 200+20 Skill after Lv 35 doesn't mean the mechanic itself is pointless on your MCH way.

Next time please have first a look to the full class and not only max Level. SE needs to serve MCH from Lv 30 until Lv 80 not just Lv 80 must feel good.

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I will remember that next time I'm in Brayflox Longstop, Titan 4 man, More than a Feeler and Annoy the Void. I am *so* glad they designed a skill for one dungeon, one 2 minute boss fight, and two Guildhests, and the first 5 levels of the MCH experience which lasts about 5 minutes in itself.

Look, you aren't wrong, but that doesn't mean the design makes any sense. The moment you unlock Heat Blast, that entire part of the skill becomes entirely pointless. No other class to my knowledge has design like this. To teach you one element of design, only to make that element completely irrelevant 5 minutes later, is bad design. You can have evolving kits and playstyles, but to fundamentally change a core skill so much so quickly is just... wrong. Now, if Heat Blast was a level 50+ skill? Your point would have merit, as there would then be a significant amount of time with the old system, which would then make evolving into the new system that much better.

Now, IF Hyperdrive made *all* Weaponskills have a 1.5 second cast time, and either had Heat Blast have some other functionality encouraging its use during Hyperdrive, even if only just once, (like, say, having Heat Blast be a skill that deals a large amount of potency but ends the Hyperdrive effect), you would have a Hyperdrive that functionally makes sense, AND an ability that evolves and advances the use of Hyperdrive at level 35 that doesn't invalidate an entire portion of the Hyperdrive function. This is just off the top of my head, but it's far from the only possible design that makes the ability make sense without invalidating either that part of Hyperdrive OR Heat Blast itself, while also solving the issue we have of Drill/Anchor and Wildfire cooldowns conflicting with each other.

The worst thing is this annoying form of overheating in 5.x :Ping pew Ping crrr Ping Pew Ping crr Ping pew Drill
How often were the guys ,which thought that THAT is cool, running against a wall
i wont start complaining about the Sks issues and ping ,SE will never learn that

SE: we gave the players a personal Baymax ,it will be fine

I just wish Auto Crossbow was an upgrade for Spread shot and not tied into HC like it is. With it not giving charges like HB does, why have it be apart of HC? I also don't like how Ric and GB both have a 150 potency. I get the added 20 potency, but thats still a huge why for me? For what they did, there are so many weird design choices. Flamethrower still being crap.

Also, why did we lose our Bishop? Could they not have kept that and then had it upgrade to Automated King? That would of made a lot of sense....

Lot of things make sense for someone that actually play the game, but you cant if you dont. And SE proves often enough that they dont really know what they do, look at the rdm, anyone playing it would have seen that they burned way more mana than they were getting back, same with the ast gameplay or scholar gameplay.

Bioblaster/flamethrower could have been a single ability, like 4.x mch pvp ability, but .. nope. Bioblaster could even have been a debuff on ennemies, but greedy dps so nothing for us.

I can't say MCH's broken as it is playable, and aparently "easy-mode" for most ppl now... which personally seams odd as I feal a bit overwhelmed with its strict "Drill/Anchor vs Hyercharge use" timers while spaming oGCD's to keep them low for Hypercharge use but okay I can give them that I mean it could just be me "sucking" but I honestly find myself wishing Drill &/or Air Anchor were oGCD's... I mean yah it would add even more oGCD's to MCH's list but at lest it would help making sure these atm "REQUIRED to be on CD" GCD weaponskills easier to keep on CD

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Originally Posted by The_NPC

I can't say MCH's broken as it is playable, and aparently "easy-mode" for most ppl now... which personally seams odd as I feal a bit overwhelmed with its strict "Drill/Anchor vs Hyercharge use" timers while spaming oGCD's to keep them low for Hypercharge use but okay I can give them that I mean it could just be me "sucking" but I honestly find myself wishing Drill &/or Air Anchor were oGCD's... I mean yah it would add even more oGCD's to MCH's list but at lest it would help making sure these atm "REQUIRED to be on CD" GCD weaponskills easier to keep on CD

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Mch is very forgiving as even if you dont do your rotation that well, you'll still output an okay dps, but the difficulty ramp up if you try to really optimize it, as it's qutie strict. The biggest problem is that the dps gained by doing so doesnt reward you at all for it.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

I will remember that next time I'm in Brayflox Longstop, Titan 4 man, More than a Feeler and Annoy the Void. I am *so* glad they designed a skill for one dungeon, one 2 minute boss fight, and two Guildhests, and the first 5 levels of the MCH experience which lasts about 5 minutes in itself.

Look, you aren't wrong, but that doesn't mean the design makes any sense. The moment you unlock Heat Blast, that entire part of the skill becomes entirely pointless. No other class to my knowledge has design like this. To teach you one element of design, only to make that element completely irrelevant 5 minutes later, is bad design. You can have evolving kits and playstyles, but to fundamentally change a core skill so much so quickly is just... wrong. Now, if Heat Blast was a level 50+ skill? Your point would have merit, as there would then be a significant amount of time with the old system, which would then make evolving into the new system that much better.

Now, IF Hyperdrive made *all* Weaponskills have a 1.5 second cast time, and either had Heat Blast have some other functionality encouraging its use during Hyperdrive, even if only just once, (like, say, having Heat Blast be a skill that deals a large amount of potency but ends the Hyperdrive effect), you would have a Hyperdrive that functionally makes sense, AND an ability that evolves and advances the use of Hyperdrive at level 35 that doesn't invalidate an entire portion of the Hyperdrive function. This is just off the top of my head, but it's far from the only possible design that makes the ability make sense without invalidating either that part of Hyperdrive OR Heat Blast itself, while also solving the issue we have of Drill/Anchor and Wildfire cooldowns conflicting with each other.

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A full post and you still did not get it.
A new player who unlocks MCH needs a bit more then 5mins. As said it is a way of MCH and does not limit you to anything else. The +20 is not dropped as HeatBlast is still getting the value. If HyperCharge would just say: Heatbleast unlock it would be pointless to have it at Lv30 at all.
I am not saying there is no way to improve it. Just the way it is designed right now is not pointless. Huge difference in thinking.

I personally would change the whole class as until lv 35 it is just: 1,2,3 and Gauge. If you ever have a tank which is doing mass pule you do have just 1 skill until a very late level...

To be honest I would give every DPS class a full feeling of the late game rotation at an early stage and just unlock a few skills + skill upgrads (more potency) with higher level. But this is not how it is designed right now.