SMN; How do poison DoTs fit the class?

Arcanist controls the nearby aether to create blasting energies and summon primals by rerouting and channeling aether lines.
But, how does Miasma and Bio fit with that?

They don't. /thread.

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Originally Posted by yillin

They don't. /thread.

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Oh, uhm, okay.
I thought I had missed something important.
Maybe it does fit Scholar? Haven't play that class so Idk.
Miasma + Bio mantaining is the only thing I dislike of this class and all my damage depends on it lol.

If I'm remembering correctly Bio and Miasma affect the aether within the target's body which in turn interferes with their internal organs. More like a cancer than a poison.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

If I'm remembering correctly Bio and Miasma affect the aether within the target's body which in turn interferes with their internal organs. More like a cancer than a poison.

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That's dark as heck.

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Originally Posted by Siete

That's dark as heck.

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Yep. Arcanist magick is kind of messed up.

Read the flavor text on the actual status ailments sometime. I remember one of the two actively attacking the lungs

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Originally Posted by DJMau

Read the flavor text on the actual status ailments sometime. I remember one of the two actively attacking the lungs

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Yeah, they both spread some sort of contagion/virus thing.
I feel like it quite doesn't fit what Arcanists do tho, although we're supposed to be some sort of plague doctor.

And doctors are intimately intertwined with the body. Couple that with the ability to manipulate aether and you can either stimulate growth or cause devastation.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

If I'm remembering correctly Bio and Miasma affect the aether within the target's body which in turn interferes with their internal organs. More like a cancer than a poison.

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What does that have to do with SMN? Or you're saying he's summoning creatures (cancer primals) to dot someone? Lmao.

Next thing you know you'll have SAM casting Fire because the spirit of the katana tells him to.

Arcanists are basically using healing magic in reverse, to do damage. So they dont really fit summoner. But you have to remember that we arent "really" a summoner in XIV. We are an Arcanist that uses some ancient techniques deployed by summoners. Which is also why as we gain more levels dots just dont seem to fit.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Next thing you know you'll have SAM casting Fire because the spirit of the katana tells him to.

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I mean, Samurai does have an ice/wind attack with Yukikaze (Yuki = snow, Kaze = wind).

Plus yeah if you were trying to kill someone and could fill their lungs with fluid, it seems like it'd be an effective (if cruel) way to do it. Remember that Jobs are just advancements of classes -- Monks use Bootshine not because it involves inner peace, chakra, and martial prowess... it's because punching the **** out of someone really hard is an effective tactic leftover from Pugilist. Paladins bleed opponents out with some skills, because Gladiatorial combat often came down to just bleeding your foe out. White Mages, for a very long time, kept chucking rocks because of their background as a Conjurer.

IMO
Poison - NIN
Bleed - SAM
curses - DRK

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Originally Posted by Powercow

I mean, Samurai does have an ice/wind attack with Yukikaze (Yuki = snow, Kaze = wind).

Plus yeah if you were trying to kill someone and could fill their lungs with fluid, it seems like it'd be an effective (if cruel) way to do it. Remember that Jobs are just advancements of classes -- Monks use Bootshine not because it involves inner peace, chakra, and martial prowess... it's because punching the **** out of someone really hard is an effective tactic leftover from Pugilist. Paladins bleed opponents out with some skills, because Gladiatorial combat often came down to just bleeding your foe out. White Mages, for a very long time, kept chucking rocks because of their background as a Conjurer.

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Even then, Summoner is a classic FF job, it has never ever had anything to do with DoTs. It could easily be retconned to be just a SCH thing, but SMN has never had anything to do with it.

SMN should be about summoning, which it isn't right now and has never been. Most of the damage from SMN comes from dots and ruin, which is really silly. Even more silly is Ifrit/Garuda/Titan hitting for 2k on oGCD...

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Originally Posted by Xyr

IMO
Poison - NIN
Bleed - SAM
curses - DRK

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WAR could have bleeds too IMO, heck even in the official art of the first WAR, the axe is drenched in blood.

I’ve literally been saying this since day 1. I think they wanted to release ARR with a new class and they literally just copy pasted WoW warlock. Pet classes in MMOs are usually “evil” classes like warlocks or necromancers. I think they got lazy, looked at the fact that none of the classes use poisons and bam. I’m fine with DoTs, but poisons feel out of place. I think it almost makes sense for scholar.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Even then, Summoner is a classic FF job, it has never ever had anything to do with DoTs. It could easily be retconned to be just a SCH thing, but SMN has never had anything to do with it.

SMN should be about summoning, which it isn't right now and has never been. Most of the damage from SMN comes from dots and ruin, which is really silly. Even more silly is Ifrit/Garuda/Titan hitting for 2k on oGCD...



WAR could have bleeds too IMO, heck even in the official art of the first WAR, the axe is drenched in blood.

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Yeah, they could remove DoTs and make the pets apply a debuff sort of like "Aetheric Disturbance" making Ruin spells hit harder and then add the missing potency of the dots to the rest of the toolkit or simply ruin because heck, even BLM Blizzard hits harder than Ruin III.

My memories of SCH and SMN quests is a bit hazy but; in terms of lore, Bio and Miasma might be explained by Scholars' past, their nations were brought low by a poison/curse that turned them into Tonberry. Studying the effects of that poison probably led them to develop poison oriented spells? There's no mention (afaik) of old SCHs and allag SMNs using poison spells, originally. ACN being the current era's closest thing to what these jobs used to be, you're working with that base and expand your arsenal with ancient techniques.
I don't mind DoTs on SMN, can't expect jobs to be the exact same thing in every FF. But the job still revolving around puny (clunky) egis, especially now that we have access to demi primals... Yikes.

Well you get them as Arcanist for a reason. They are Arcanist techniques specifically, which is why Scholar also has them. Your complaint is more that Summoner doesn't fit as a branch of the Arcanist class, which is valid. As Summoners focus more on demi-primals it makes less and less sense that we are tied to the Arcanist class, to the point where Summoner should really just be its own thing. If they really wanted to they could just replace Bio and Miasma with primal-themed equivalents, but they seem to want to make sure that link to the Arcanist class is still there, and so Bio and Miasma (along with physick) are what we have.

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Originally Posted by Sinh119

Well you get them as Arcanist for a reason. They are Arcanist techniques specifically, which is why Scholar also has them. Your complaint is more that Summoner doesn't fit as a branch of the Arcanist class, which is valid. As Summoners focus more on demi-primals it makes less and less sense that we are tied to the Arcanist class, to the point where Summoner should really just be its own thing. If they really wanted to they could just replace Bio and Miasma with primal-themed equivalents, but they seem to want to make sure that link to the Arcanist class is still there, and so Bio and Miasma (along with physick) are what we have.

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It's also worth noting that Arcanist originally was designed to support what would become the Summoner in ARR. Which is to say SMN was designed to be a WoW Warlock knockoff with its own bizarro mechanics because the devs didn't quite understand or know where they wanted the class to go and thought the Egi system was the better choice, mixed with 4 DoTs (Bio, Miasma, Bio 2, I think they had Miasma 2 as an aoe DoT, and Shadowflare, though M2 was never used ST). Plus the pets which had an awful implementation that stuck through SB only to be made into a better-but-still-bad implementation in ShB.

So the devs have been trying desperately to keep the core of the class the same (the original poison mage design of ARR) so they wouldn't need to do major edits to the class or rewrites of the lore, but in SB they hit upon the right way to implement summons in FFXIV, and in ShB pushed the class towards that.

Fast forward a bit and you can see the disjointed problem trying to salvage the core design caused. SMN stopped being a true poison mage in SB, but it's being kept because the devs don't want to change the core, which is why this is turning into a mess that doesn't fit either thematically or gameplay wise.

The lore of Arcanist was written to facilitate ARR's summoner, but it no longer fits how Summoner plays now because the current summoner is the closest to a true summoner FFXIV has ever had, while also being the furthest away from poison mage it's ever been, so the class just feels like a mess because of it.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Even then, Summoner is a classic FF job, it has never ever had anything to do with DoTs.

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Oh would you look at that:

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...play#Abilities

Level 10 and Level 26.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Arcanist controls the nearby aether to create blasting energies and summon primals by rerouting and channeling aether lines.
But, how does Miasma and Bio fit with that?

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It's pretty obvious that the Damage over Time concept was created to support the idea of a pet class. Between one DoT application and the other, the ideal Summoner would weave a lot of pet skills and multiple different summons. In the end, the team changed the concept but choose to retain the initian defining trait.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Oh would you look at that:

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...play#Abilities

Level 10 and Level 26.

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Did you even read the page you posted? Bio and Poison are BLACK MAGICS! This has nothing to do with Rydia being a Summoner, she has two classes, same as Yuna being a Summoner and a White Mage. But that doesn't mean Holy, Cure and Esuna are Summoning magics, obviously.

Just admit, the design for SMN in this game is just a poor excuse for a wow Warlock because the devs had no idea how to make a pet class work without copying it from other games, maybe because of incompetence, maybe because of time constraints.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Arcanist controls the nearby aether to create blasting energies and summon primals by rerouting and channeling aether lines.
But, how does Miasma and Bio fit with that?

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Because when it in came out 2013, SE wanted a Magic Ranged DPS that casts direct damage spells (BLM) and a Magic Ranged DPS that uses pets and DoTs (SMN). They didn't want two jobs to play exactly the same way. /thread

Being that, lorewise, the Allagan Empire basically invented Arcanima? You can probably attribute the border-line cancer esque toxins to their inhumane tendencies. I think they fit perfectly, considering this.

Yeah, it's always been strange that the visual effect of our dots are "poison" oriented.

I'd much prefer that they be primal based, like Ifrit appearing and burning the enemy before disappearing, sort of how it appears in this artwork.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170723164727

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Originally Posted by Len

Yeah, it's always been strange that the visual effect of our dots are "poison" oriented.

I'd much prefer that they be primal based, like Ifrit appearing and burning the enemy before disappearing, sort of how it appears in this artwork.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170723164727

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Even though I have never played XI, just looking at XI's SMN makes me so sad for what could have been in this game.

Just look at it: https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Summoner

Every magic comes from Summons, as it should be. The devs could have unlimited potential to do whatever they wanted with this class, instead, they copied Warlock from WoW, lmao.

I like the dot management, but I'm not a fan of the aesthetics of the snifflesmage dots, and I'm also not a fan of taking ALL of the spellcasting away from the player outside of "make summon do it for me" spells.
I wish that instead of just upgrading our dots to III versions of the ACN dots, we got two more thematic spells of channeling summon magic (rather than summoning something just to put a dot on). Maybe be able to cast a dark dot and a light dot instead.

foreshadowforeshadow

TL;DR, For me, the dot management/character actually doing damaging spells themselves isn't offensive to me, just the themeing is a bit disappointing.

It only fits so much as that it fits Arcanist and Summoners are former Arcanists.

But yeah it doesn't fit.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Even though I have never played XI, just looking at XI's SMN makes me so sad for what could have been in this game.

Just look at it: https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Summoner

Every magic comes from Summons, as it should be. The devs could have unlimited potential to do whatever they wanted with this class, instead, they copied Warlock from WoW, lmao.

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FFXI SMN was brilliant. It may not have been very effective at many points throughout the game's lifespan but the fact that you could summon a proper avatar, have them perform powerful moves, including buffs, have them tank for you, etc... it was a REAL Summoner job.

FFXIV SMN is *getting there* in terms of what it *should* be in this game, but these hangovers from ACN need to go. I predict that SE are already planning to strip away Bio, Miasma, Physick and everything else ACN related and transition the job into it's own completely unique SMN job. They could even set it to start from level 30 just to completely cut away from ACN.

We shall see.

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Originally Posted by Caliburn

FFXI SMN was brilliant. It may not have been very effective at many points throughout the game's lifespan but the fact that you could summon a proper avatar, have them perform powerful moves, including buffs, have them tank for you, etc... it was a REAL Summoner job.

FFXIV SMN is *getting there* in terms of what it *should* be in this game, but these hangovers from ACN need to go. I predict that SE are already planning to strip away Bio, Miasma, Physick and everything else ACN related and transition the job into it's own completely unique SMN job. They could even set it to start from level 30 just to completely cut away from ACN.

We shall see.

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We can hope, but there's a lot of lore they have to be willing to sacrifice, and sacrificing lore is basically a cardinal sin as far as the devs are concerned. But it needs to happen.

I'd also like for Summoner to have the book removed as a primary weapon. By all means keep the old books because they're there, but start replacing SMN with a new weapon, such as a whip, and fully separate it from Scholar at this point. SCH makes a ton of sense with having books, SMN really doesn't. And by having half as many books, they can make each book feel more unique because the designers won't be stepping on each other's toes trying to make SMN and SCH books unique. Books are already stupidly limited in terms of uniqueness because they're a very specific defined shape, so it doesn't help that 2 separate classes share the same specific weapon.

But this all hinges on the devs being willing to make the necessary sacrifice to start moving summoner along its way to where it needs to be.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Did you even read the page you posted? Bio and Poison are BLACK MAGICS! This has nothing to do with Rydia being a Summoner, she has two classes, same as Yuna being a Summoner and a White Mage. But that doesn't mean Holy, Cure and Esuna are Summoning magics, obviously.

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Ahh But you said:

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Summoner is a classic FF job, it has never ever had anything to do with DoTs.

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So here is a classic Summoner, from a village of Summoners, using poison magic, which have Damage Over Time properties.

So yeah, there is a precedent.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

We can hope, but there's a lot of lore they have to be willing to sacrifice, and sacrificing lore is basically a cardinal sin as far as the devs are concerned. But it needs to happen.

I'd also like for Summoner to have the book removed as a primary weapon. By all means keep the old books because they're there, but start replacing SMN with a new weapon, such as a whip, and fully separate it from Scholar at this point. SCH makes a ton of sense with having books, SMN really doesn't. And by having half as many books, they can make each book feel more unique because the designers won't be stepping on each other's toes trying to make SMN and SCH books unique. Books are already stupidly limited in terms of uniqueness because they're a very specific defined shape, so it doesn't help that 2 separate classes share the same specific weapon.

But this all hinges on the devs being willing to make the necessary sacrifice to start moving summoner along its way to where it needs to be.

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Whips? I'd rather they use those for beastmasters. Whips aren't very casty. :T
Books are fine imo. a good caster tool that isn't a rod or alembic (fancy rod) like they were originally.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Ahh But you said:



So here is a classic Summoner, from a village of Summoners, using poison magic, which have Damage Over Time properties.

So yeah, there is a precedent.

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It still feels lazy. One summoner in the history of the series had two spells. It was definitely laziness. Diseases and poisons go with pet classes in so many other MMOs. Every other class flows into their job. Tham flows very naturally into BLM. Gladiator flows very naturally into PLD. Arcanist does not flow well into SMN.

Black Mage is her subjob not her main.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

It still feels lazy. One summoner in the history of the series had two spells. It was definitely laziness. Diseases and poisons go with pet classes in so many other MMOs. Every other class flows into their job. Tham flows very naturally into BLM. Gladiator flows very naturally into PLD. Arcanist does not flow well into SMN.

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You're forgetting Bard lol

To be honest they should push "oGCDs and instant casts for days" as SMN's identity, but I don't think they'll ever remove DoTs just so they don't alienate the 3 or 4 people that love SMN for being a DoT-based job.
SMN was becoming less and less of a DoT-based job and more of a bursty ogcd mobile caster as expansions go but for some reason in 5.0 they went backwards.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

To be honest they should push "oGCDs and instant casts for days" as SMN's identity, but I don't think they'll ever remove DoTs just so they don't alienate the 3 or 4 people that love SMN for being a DoT-based job.
SMN was becoming less and less of a DoT-based job and more of a bursty ogcd mobile caster as expansions go but for some reason in 5.0 they went backwards.

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I don’t mind DoTs, I would just like them to not be poisons. It doesn’t fit. Make them elemental DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Ahh But you said:
So here is a classic Summoner, from a village of Summoners, using poison magic, which have Damage Over Time properties.

So yeah, there is a precedent.

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You know you're not making any sense right now, right? Again, with your same flawed reasoning, Summoners should also have white magic because Garnet/Eiko were Summoners and White Mages.

Rydia could use Poison and Bio because she also has access to Black Magic, from the same page you posted:

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She is the first dedicated Summoner in the Final Fantasy series, and also excels in casting Black Magic,

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It doesn't have anything to do with Summoning.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Did you even read the page you posted? Bio and Poison are BLACK MAGICS! This has nothing to do with Rydia being a Summoner, she has two classes, same as Yuna being a Summoner and a White Mage. But that doesn't mean Holy, Cure and Esuna are Summoning magics, obviously.

Just admit, the design for SMN in this game is just a poor excuse for a wow Warlock because the devs had no idea how to make a pet class work without copying it from other games, maybe because of incompetence, maybe because of time constraints.

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This is a opinon not a fact buddy. And it feels nothing like a warlock from world of Warcraft lol.

And for record

SHB summoner > BFA warlock. Lol,

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Originally Posted by Drayos

This is a opinon not a fact buddy. And it feels nothing like a warlock from world of Warcraft lol.

And for record

SHB summoner > BFA warlock. Lol,

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It definitely did in ARR compared to vanilla warlock (and thereabouts). The classes original design was strongly inspired by WoW's warlock and was almost exclusively a dot class that happened to do other things occasionally.

The Summoner of ShB is still being impacted by its original roots in ARR.