And so it continues, even from the community team...

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Originally Posted by Ridrina

Greetings,

Thank you all for submitting so many questions so far!

As we mentioned in 5.01 patch notes, we’re planning to make further job adjustments in the upcoming Patch 5.05 next week.

We’d appreciate if you could send in your job-related questions after trying out the changes from Patch 5.05. Thanks again, and enjoy Shadowbringers!

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Don't ask questions/give feedback-- it's only media tour/not max level/raids soon/savage soon/adjustments soon... When do we get to ask questions and get answers ever-- let alone in a time relevant fashion? The fact they even had to make this statement goes to show how many questions were asked and how popular some of them must have been. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the timing of the questions being taken, the patch and the live letter makes it seem rather convenient to avoid being asked role/job related questions.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Don't ask questions/give feedback-- it's only media tour/not max level/raids soon/savage soon/adjustments soon... When do we get to ask questions and get answers ever-- let alone in a time relevant fashion? The fact they even had to make this statement goes to show how many questions were asked and how popular some of them must have been. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the timing of the questions being taken, the patch and the live letter makes it seem rather convenient to avoid being asked role/job related questions.

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At least, based on what I can see, the live letter will be after the patch. I for one will be trying out the changes ASAP and posting questions afterwards. TBH even if they change everything back that needs to be changed back, I’ll still want them to talk about healers. Something went very wrong in 5.0, and that should be acknowledged so they can avoid it happening again. “What have you learned from the reception to the 5.0 healer changes and how will this change the way you approach healer changes in the future?” Is one I’d like answered.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

At least, based on what I can see, the live letter will be after the patch. I for one will be trying out the changes ASAP and posting questions afterwards. TBH even if they change everything back that needs to be changed back, I’ll still want them to talk about healers. Something went very wrong in 5.0, and that should be acknowledged so they can avoid it happening again. “What have you learned from the reception to the 5.0 healer changes and how will this change the way you approach healer changes in the future?” Is one I’d like answered.

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That's fine and all, but... how will we know when we can ask questions for the next live letter? How do we know that more changes won't be incomming for a patch around that live letter so we can't ask questions again? How long do we need to wait before we're even able to ask a question to the dev team and have it be considered-- heaven forbid answered in a timely fashion-- before they just randomly make changes like a game of Pin the Tail on the Donkey?

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

That's fine and all, but... how will we know when we can ask questions for the next live letter? How do we know that more changes won't be incomming for a patch around that live letter so we can't ask questions again? How long do we need to wait before we're even able to ask a question to the dev team and have it be considered-- heaven forbid answered in a timely fashion-- before they just randomly make changes like a game of Pin the Tail on the Donkey?

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There’s a full week after the next patch before the live letter, based on the dates I’ve been told (patch on July 30th. Live letter August 7th). I assumed we’d still be able to submit questions for this letter, just after the patch.

I'm not ready to be outraged at this quite yet. I did ask a few questions regarding healers (and some other jobs) in the thread, and for all I know these questions could be resolved in a few days before the live letter actually arrives. If these issues are fixed, then there are no reason to ask the questions that I asked. I'm hoping that there are some pretty sizable changes coming with the savage patch. If there isn't, them I am more than ready to get angry at the devs over this. They've been uncharacteristically silent these past several weeks (including the time where all we had were media tour screenshots); in the previous two expansions there has been a lot more that they have said regarding player reactions to changes.

I'm worried the changes wont be enough, but be bandade fixes. Potency buffs and that's it. Astro was my main class and ShB completely ruined it.

The only positive thing about that message is that they see all the questions about healers, but like I said I think sadly they are simple bandage fixes

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Originally Posted by Lagomorph

They've been uncharacteristically silent these past several weeks (including the time where all we had were media tour screenshots); in the previous two expansions there has been a lot more that they have said regarding player reactions to changes.

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That's because in the past two expansions, a lot of the negatively-received changes were over DPS Jobs. I'm firmly convinced the Scholar fixes in early Stormblood were only because they realized they couldn't finalize the Arcanist split and they got too ambitious, so they rolled some of it back and threw in some Potency changes while not fixing any of the real problems.

They're far more adept at brushing off Healer concerns (look at the White Mage megathread in Stormblood) than they are the other two Roles.

We're supposed to be good little healbots that don't ask questions or get upset, because this is the expansion of "Healer Balance" and if they don't get them "balanced" according to their vision, we're not going to get a new Healing Job.

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Originally Posted by TonberiScholar

That's because in the past two expansions, a lot of the negatively-received changes were over DPS Jobs. I'm firmly convinced the Scholar fixes in early Stormblood were only because they realized they couldn't finalize the Arcanist split and they got too ambitious, so they rolled some of it back and threw in some Potency changes while not fixing any of the real problems.

They're far more adept at brushing off Healer concerns (look at the White Mage megathread in Stormblood) than they are the other two Roles.

We're supposed to be good little healbots that don't ask questions or get upset, because this is the expansion of "Healer Balance" and if they don't get them "balanced" according to their vision, we're not going to get a new Healing Job.

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It's not just the healers though. There are many unhappy monks, dark knights, summoners, and bards right now, among other jobs. They're just fewer in number than the upset healers. The cynic in me would be inclined to agree that the devs just ignore healers, but I think I can manage to be hopeful for another few days. If they screw it up again, I guess it's time to reinstall WoW.

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Originally Posted by Lagomorph

It's not just the healers though. There are many unhappy monks, dark knights, summoners, and bards right now, among other jobs. They're just fewer in number than the upset healers. The cynic in me would be inclined to agree that the devs just ignore healers, but I think I can manage to be hopeful for another few days. If they screw it up again, I guess it's time to reinstall WoW.

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I'd be willing to bet the non-Healer Jobs get the lion's share of the responses when they do finally start talking about the Job changes.

But at this point I basically have a cynic and a worse cynic, one on each shoulder, so hopefully I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by TonberiScholar

That's because in the past two expansions, a lot of the negatively-received changes were over DPS Jobs. I'm firmly convinced the Scholar fixes in early Stormblood were only because they realized they couldn't finalize the Arcanist split and they got too ambitious, so they rolled some of it back and threw in some Potency changes while not fixing any of the real problems.

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I think we had different experiences... ARR into HW there was the Aetherflow 20 to 10% and changes to lustrate, HW there was backlash over AST and lack of healing potency and then over the 20% balance and constant Nocturnal shield and SCH shields comparison the over writing of shields between AST and SCH. The stone skin removal, cleric stance changes, healers losing individual skill removals ummm give me back leeches and all off the cross class actions. Into SB SCH changes Miasma, bane, aero etcetc WHM Lilly and the constant churn on healers skills and changes. Look at the mess over confession stacks... there were and are some very unhappy healers.

So it wasn't just DPS negativity there were hundred of posts defining how miffed we were.

Then i hope the question thread will remain open beyond the patch going live or i will find this very shady >_>

I mean, it doesn't make any sense to ask questions about job balance, that won't be answered until after the next major job balancing patch...

But yeah, must be a conspiracy.

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Originally Posted by TonberiScholar

I'd be willing to bet the non-Healer Jobs get the lion's share of the responses when they do finally start talking about the Job changes.

But at this point I basically have a cynic and a worse cynic, one on each shoulder, so hopefully I'm wrong.

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I mean, during the ShB press tour there were 96 questions asked and only 4 of them were about healers and those 4 were fluff questions.

Unless SE are planning on dropping reworks and fundamental changes rather than tweaks to abilities, then I think there's plenty of feedback ready to give. These changes would have to be pretty significant to satisfy the negative feedback on the least satisfied jobs. However, SE don't tend to do such significant changes until new expansions. The complaints aren't things resolvable by simple tweaks, but rather to how certain jobs play. Whilst Shadowbringers has surprised me in many ways, because they've done such a remarkable job with it so far and the job changes are where it was lacking. I am hoping that SE are "ahah, we have another unexpected surprise for you, big job changes you'll love".

But I am kinda sceptical given past experience, EG: they recognised many of the reasons people hated the state of MNK and showed recognition of where those problems were, Yoshi P even went on record at a live letter saying he hopes people try MNK because he thinks they'll love their changes and actually changed very little about what people were complaining about and MNK's are almost as dissatisfied as healers.

I think this liveletter is a good opportunity to not ask about the healer changes but ask why there's been such a lack of communication over it. Feel free to go there and upvote + post your variation of this : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5104486

Hopefully the healer community can get enough traction that we get this answered.

it literally says ask questions after trying out the changes so same day.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I think this liveletter is a good opportunity to not ask about the healer changes but ask why there's been such a lack of communication over it. Feel free to go there and upvote + post your variation of this : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5104486

Hopefully the healer community can get enough traction that we get this answered.

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Yeah cause once again it doesnt matter what happens to WHM as long as SCH and AST get thier shinies back and you wonder why WHM mains cease to care about what AST and SCH want We've dealt with the same basic thing you guys have been complaining about since day 1 even when we asked for it be made more exciting all we got was more heals poorly implimented lilies and diminishing return AoE but heaven forfend anything should be done to make WHM just as engaging as the others nope. All three healers need to be viable and fun and engaging to play not just one or two or the constant rebalancing will never end.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

it literally says ask questions after trying out the changes so same day.



Yeah cause once again it doesnt matter what happens to WHM as long as SCH and AST get thier shinies back and you wonder why WHM mains cease to care about what AST and SCH want We've dealt with the same basic thing you guys have been complaining about since day 1 even when we asked for it be made more exciting all we got was more heals poorly implimented lilies and diminishing return AoE but heaven forfend anything should be done to make WHM just as engaging as the others nope. All three healers need to be viable and fun and engaging to play not just one or two or the constant rebalancing will never end.

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Indeed, I think all healers, all classes/jobs even, should be fun from the get-go as I found arcanist/scholar. Only started coming here after the 5.0 changes to sch and I really feel you if this kind of playstyle is what whm have had all these years.

Now is the chance to get some answers, post your questions in the LL thread and ask for what you think might be an engaging addition or change to your favorite job(s).

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Originally Posted by Sloprano

Now is the chance to get some answers, post your questions in the LL thread and ask for what you think might be an engaging addition or change to your favorite job(s).

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They specifically asked not to provide any feedback on skills since they already probably finalized 5.05 changes and want the feedback on their changes, not the current skill set. I'm afraid any such questions will be outright ignored until 5.05 hits.

At this point, changes don't mean anything if it's just numbers. People's problems aren't with the numbers. The problem is with how the class plays. This was the problem with Monk that they ignored when the Stormblood's .05 patch hit and I feel like this is going to continue to be the problem for healers when 5.05 comes around. You could increase the potency of all their skills and it would still bad because they aren't looking at numbers.

Even if a decent question gets asked which it won't since they are handpicked you'd get a blanket statement like "we'll look into it".

Which says nothing.

If they do anything it'll be small adjustments.

Maybe next xpac.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

They specifically asked not to provide any feedback on skills since they already probably finalized 5.05 changes and want the feedback on their changes, not the current skill set. I'm afraid any such questions will be outright ignored until 5.05 hits.

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Whilst I'd normally say "that's reasonable" to that. But if the question relates to something that has nothing to do with the changes they make, then it's still a valid question. I just don't see them making fundamental changes that are needed in a patch, especially so early but if they make me eat my words and surprise me on this, I'll be happy and be less of a naysayer in future. But they've never done the big changes in patch, only expansions.

What the changes may address is things like the disparity between AST's ability to heal and SCH/WHM's abilities to heal as there is a bad there and this can be changed with tweaks.
What changes I doubt they'd address is how the 3 healers play in content, why people are saying they're bored or don't like playing healers anymore.

I hope people can word their feedback carefully and specifically. Engaging is not exactly equal to fun. the current AST is engaging AF. Have to manage cards, mirror arcana, and seals in between healing and dpsing. Have to heal extra more due to weaker healing potency. I could manage in dungeon, but I'm pretty sure I won't in any post 80 high end duty content. More importantly, it's not fun.

It seemed to me like there are going to be some ‘major’ adjustments to jobs rather than just base potency adjustments. So they’re asking for players to hold on feedback until they play the jobs with this ‘adjusted’ playstyle compared to now.

Not saying this is what’s really happening, just how I saw it.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Whilst I'd normally say "that's reasonable" to that. But if the question relates to something that has nothing to do with the changes they make, then it's still a valid question. I just don't see them making fundamental changes that are needed in a patch, especially so early but if they make me eat my words and surprise me on this, I'll be happy and be less of a naysayer in future. But they've never done the big changes in patch, only expansions.

What the changes may address is things like the disparity between AST's ability to heal and SCH/WHM's abilities to heal as there is a bad there and this can be changed with tweaks.
What changes I doubt they'd address is how the 3 healers play in content, why people are saying they're bored or don't like playing healers anymore.

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I wouldn't quite say 'never.'

I remember 4.0 and what they did to us (Scholars) then, and they did fix it in 4.05 (arguably, even went to far and made us a bit too powerful). I'll at least give them that shot....I mean, what's two more days, right?

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

I wouldn't quite say 'never.'

I remember 4.0 and what they did to us (Scholars) then, and they did fix it in 4.05 (arguably, even went to far and made us a bit too powerful). I'll at least give them that shot....I mean, what's two more days, right?

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4.05 tweaked abilities so timers and potencies were better as well as adjusting range of certain abilities, rather than fundamental changes to how the job plays. That kind of thing ties with what I said for my expectations, except my comment used what AST needed that they'd likely tweak as an example.

But SE has historically only left the fundamental changes or made any needed reworks at the point of expansion. EG by the end of Stormblood MCH had all the right balance and numbers and in terms of balance and DPS it was in a good place, but why people hated it and complained was never addressed until ShB because it needed some pretty fundamental changes for people to enjoy it. I feel that is where we are with healers. Whilst I accept there is the very slim chance SE make an exception to the rule, but given a long history of playing this game and issues certain jobs have had during that time, I've yet to see any exception to the rule.


It's not that I don't think they won't fix issues. It's more I don't think the kind of fixes that come in patches would be enough. If healers are well balanced, it's not going to address the majority of the complaints coming out of the healer forums.

That said, I am happy if SE make me eat my own words and surprise us and say "here are some major reworks to healing that address your complaints" because then I win. WHM has already waited years for it, MCH waited a whole expansion, BRD waited a whole expansion, MNK is now 2 expansions in with core complaints about how the job plays not being address (and were led to believe they were), PLD got their's after an expansion, SCH being OP has been something since HW and IMO what has led to it being boring. To boot, with healers, it seems there is little communication going around in regards to them.
So you can see why I am sceptical.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Yeah cause once again it doesnt matter what happens to WHM as long as SCH and AST get thier shinies back and you wonder why WHM mains cease to care about what AST and SCH want

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Except SCH and AST mains pointed out that WHM was going to end up with far less options and that Lilies were a terrible system back before Stormblood launched. They didn't listen to us, either. We just got told "wait until _____".

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...49#post5101449

Yet White Mages have been complaining about SCH since ARR and have been complaining about both of them since AST was buffed to be non-terrible back in the period between 3.07 and 3.4.

None of you ever stuck up for any changes to any Healer besides your own. It's okay, we don't expect you to now.

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Originally Posted by TonberiScholar

Except SCH and AST mains pointed out that WHM was going to end up with far less options and that Lilies were a terrible system back before Stormblood launched. They didn't listen to us, either. We just got told "wait until _____".

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...49#post5101449

Yet White Mages have been complaining about SCH since ARR and have been complaining about both of them since AST was buffed to be non-terrible back in the period between 3.07 and 3.4.

None of you ever stuck up for any changes to any Healer besides your own. It's okay, we don't expect you to now.

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Considering how overpowered and meta-warping Scholar has been for the last half decade, I'd say Scholars have been doing pretty well without cheerleaders from the WHM camp.

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Originally Posted by TonberiScholar

Except SCH and AST mains pointed out that WHM was going to end up with far less options and that Lilies were a terrible system back before Stormblood launched. They didn't listen to us, either. We just got told "wait until _____".

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...49#post5101449

Yet White Mages have been complaining about SCH since ARR and have been complaining about both of them since AST was buffed to be non-terrible back in the period between 3.07 and 3.4.

None of you ever stuck up for any changes to any Healer besides your own. It's okay, we don't expect you to now.

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I think all three need to be engaging and fun but yeah keep in delusion land where you all are on your own.
SCH and AST had the benefit of being stupidly overcompensated in SB And SCH was stupidly good in HW oh and ARR as well I guess you just dont remember that ipso facto either.

I don't recall WHMs complaining much about SCH in ARR, seeing how they worked so well together back then. The most complaints I saw were whms complaining about being 'nerfed' in 2.1 (it wasn't a big nerf), funny they undid the main change of that patch now in 5.0 by turning MedII back into a 100pot/15s instead of 50pot/30s.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Considering how overpowered and meta-warping Scholar has been for the last half decade, I'd say Scholars have been doing pretty well without cheerleaders from the WHM camp.

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Contrary to common belief, sch's guaranteed raid spot wasn't because of it being overpowered. It was/is because noct ast is terrible and SE has no clue how to fix it. Sch's role in the raid isn't just the "shield healer," but noct ast is basically just a nerfed white mage with shields instead of regens.

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Originally Posted by Kayokane

I don't recall WHMs complaining much about SCH in ARR, seeing how they worked so well together back then. The most complaints I saw were whms complaining about being 'nerfed' in 2.1 (it wasn't a big nerf), funny they undid the main change of that patch now in 5.0 by turning MedII back into a 100pot/15s instead of 50pot/30s.

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It was pretty much since Heavensward if I recall that WHM's started complaining about SCH. Hey, I've been a Scholar asking for an evolution of ARR Scholar. My cohealer is a WHM and she started back in ARR too and the jobs complimented each other so well back then. I think the biggest problem is that Scholar's weakness was that it wasn't very good at "pure" heals, but that was never a problem for people who knew how to play the job. Heavensward patched that "issue" though I never saw it as an issue, I was doing end game without it being a problem at all, I just had to learn to better utilise my toolkit to be efficient. Now add that efficiency with the ability to get people's health up rather quickly then you've got a SCH with a reasonable amount of downtime to throw in more DPS and be a stronger healer overall. WHM's identity was as the healiest healer with SCH being the preventative healer, but both are kinda moot if SCH can heal reasonable well too because there becomes a threshold where being the "healiest" is meaningless.


Annoyingly too they designed AST around that relationship, which would have worked if they didn't also make said relationship redundant and meaningless.

I didn't really see a benefit for Scholar to be OP, because I think it is the path that kinda led me to stop enjoying it (it wasn't as bad in HW, but it worsened in SB I feel). I mean it had its novelty for a bit, but I feel our handicap was not only needed for us to be balanced with White Mage, but also for the job to be more interesting from a heal perspective. As nowadays as a SCH I just need to spam heals, I don't have to be smart like I used to in ARR or make decisions about how I utilise my spells like I used to in ARR.

And also with my co-healer being a WHM I have some empathy for how it has been for them for a while. I used to be in the camp of "maybe they'll fix it in a patch" or when announcements were made "maybe it's not as bad as it sounds". But I gave up after she tried SB's version of WHM because her cynicism was not ill-placed. What they did to AST & SCH this time around is what they've gradually done to WHM. Seemingly rather than fixing WHM they broke the other healing jobs instead.


As a result, these were my proposed Scholar changes just before ShB to hopefully be an evolution of how it was in ARR: https://1drv.ms/w/s!ArdJeaZPjXMEhO9B...2WITw?e=De0All