Changes to Meditation, Tornado Kick, and Other Actions for 5.0 Monk

This post mostly relates to my previous post and written guide on the 5.0 monk TK rotation. Much as I love this version of the class, it needs quite a few tweaks to feel complete, both for TK and Non-TK users of various skill levels.

I believe these suggestions will get the job done without needing too much of a redesign. As you can see, there’s quite a lot of reasoning behind each suggestion, but I tried to make the main points stand out at least. So grab a snack and a drink, cause it’s gonna be a long one!

1. Change Meditation to an ability similar to Dancer’s Standard Step (in that it needs to be used on the GCD), but give it an added effect that excludes it from the 6SS recast timer.

I believe this change will give 6SS a more obvious use in the form of consistent chakra buildup, whether it’s running from a boss to deal with a fight mechanic or in the middle of a GCD rotation. While I understand and agree with the increased GCD of 6SS (it’s a formless, omni-direction GCD with roughly the same power as 2 GCDs), the inability to do anything afterwards for four seconds is nothing short of terrifying to most monks. Even when the best use of 6SS is to weave in oGCDs during the cooldown (TK, FoF, RoF, Pots, etc), there usually aren’t enough oGCDs to fill in the gap at times, leaving at least 2 awkward seconds of doing nothing (with the exception of using Anatman). Giving monks an option to build up more FC uses during this downtime would help make up for the loss of Internal Release, Steel Peak, and Howling Fist. What’s more, it would retain monk’s identity of always being active, something I’ve loved about the class since 3.0. If anything else, this is the change I feel is absolutely necessary.

2. Increase the base potency of Tornado Kick to 380-400 and increase the potency to 430-450 when under GL4.

Quite frankly, it makes no sense that a move that uses up the most important monk resource, one that takes a decent amount of effort to build and maintain, does far less damage than two GCDs and an oGCD whose resources are much easier to build in comparison. Not only that, but now monks have an extra stack of GL to build and yet this move retains the same potency. It’s not hard to see why most monks have forsaken the TK rotation.

3. Allow for monks to hold up to 10 Chakra stacks (which can be shown by adding a “2” in each slot similar to how charge skills work) in order to deal with chakra overflow from “Deep Meditation” and “Brotherhood”. The current function where Meditation changes to Forbidden Chakra at 5 stacks should remain as is.

There’s not much I need to explain as I’m fairly certain all monks can agree with me on this one. Not only would you be able to save FC until for important buff windows, you’ll ultimately gain even more uses over the course of a fight, which would be another way to account for the loss of IR. Having Meditation still change to FC after 5 stacks is take class balance into account and prevent button bloat.

4. Change the GL refresh of 6SS to “generates GL when under one or less stacks” and add the effect of “increases potency to 450 when at GL3 or GL4”.

If the increased damage doesn’t encourage more usage of 6SS among the monk community, the GL gain sure will. I just feel like this move should do more damage given extended GCD timer and have a much better effect befitting of a max level move. Even though the current potency is comparable to the immediate damage of 2 GCDs, the only combination it currently exceeds is a [Dragon kick+Twin Snakes] or a [Twin Snakes+Demolish] combo. A non-buffed [Bootshine+Twin Snakes] and [Twin Snakes+Snap Punch] evens out and anything that’s paired with True Strike or a Leaden Bootshine exceeds it outright.

As for the GL stack under 1 GL effect, aside from making sure that Anatman doesn’t get thrown under the bus, the current GL refresh it’s actually far less useful than it seems (in fact, I’ve only ever viewed it as slightly convenient in the open world areas). Since 3.0, when it comes to refreshing GL for brief moments of downtime, the best way to do this has always been to manipulate your usage of Form Shift so that you’re in Coerl form right as the boss is targetable again and considering the current GCD extension of 6SS, this remains to be true. Even if the change to Meditation idea from above were implemented, the form counter still counts down normally even after using 6SS, so if timed incorrectly, you’ll end up losing your stance and hurting your dps, possibly almost as badly as losing GL. For longer periods of downtime (specifically add phase transitions in the EX primals), while a well timed 6SS can lead to a perfectly timed Earth’s Reply, if one ever truly feels that they’re in danger of losing GL, their first instinct is to use Anatman to hold their stacks or use TK on the last add and then use Anatman (which works even at zero GL so long as you’re in combat) to regain all their stacks before the boss is targetable again. The current refresh doesn’t even help in dungeons because there tends to be quite a distance from one mob to the next, even when pulling big groups. Finally, there’s the mid-combo 6SS usage, which is done after Twin Snakes/True strike and is usually followed up by TK, thereby making the refresh pointless. And the 6SS that comes soon after that is followed by Anatman, which already refreshes GL and builds even more stacks! As much as I love this move, I understand why other monks find it underwhelming as it currently is.

5. Lower Anatman’s cooldown to 45 seconds.

As a current user of the TK rotation, this would be greatly appreciated. The most obvious reason is that it would line up perfectly at the end of the RoF+BH windows. However, what’s not so obvious is the amount of planning that goes into using Anatman during a fight. Currently, on multiple occasions, the best time to use Anatman happens right when an important fight mechanic is about to occur. During this time, you’re forced to hold off on a TK for around 15-20secs, which can effectively throw off Anatman’s timing with your preferred buff windows or cause you to lose a use altogether. A slightly shorter CD on Anatman would give a bit more leeway for TK usage mid-fight and, for non-TK rotation users, make it even easier to maintain GL!

6. Make Elixir Field a charged move with two stacks, increase shoulder tackle to three stacks, or both. Also give Tornado Kick the added effect of reducing the cooldown timer of the charged skills by 15 seconds.

Admittedly, I included this as a quick fix option, even though it’s plainly clear that I ripped this from MCH. I’ve seen that some monks are really upset over the lack of extra buttons to push in between GCDs due to the loss of Steel Peak and Howling Fist, so I felt that this would have something of a band-aid effect.

And that’s everything! Sorry if it took a while to get through it all. It’s still early in the release of ShB, so I’m really hoping that some of these changes can be implemented by the time Eden Savage comes out. Either way, I still find monk very satisfying to play and contrary to popular belief, the TK rotation is still very much alive!

So talk about it! Ask me questions, call me crazy, anything to get this noticed by the devs! They say they listen, so let’s give some constructive criticism!

Tornado Kick's potency is 420. The current shown is a bug. You can test this yourself by comparing damage to SSS. It still doesn't fix the issue. It's a move that eats all stacks of GL. The trade off must be worth the time invested which is at minimum 4 WS and a 2 minute skill, or 12 WS now. The only way to balance this and have it still eat GL is give it a potency of 700-1000. That is massive for a class that is usually running +40% damage but it's the only way for it to be balanced and worth using on a regular basis.

Anatman having a cooldown more than 10 seconds honestly doesn't make sense. It's only use is to maintain GL, it doesn't generate it as fast as WS except for a server tick exploit, and is generally clunky to use. It should have a low cooldown and gotten thirty levels earlier.

Chakra has always been clunky and more so since removing IR. The whole system needs to be reworked.

Adding more charges to the few oGCD we have doesn't fix Mnk's core issues. It has no directions, and the core systems are clunky and hard to use.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

Tornado Kick's potency is 420. The current shown is a bug. You can test this yourself by comparing damage to SSS. It still doesn't fix the issue. It's a move that eats all stacks of GL. The trade off must be worth the time invested which is at minimum 4 WS and a 2 minute skill, or 12 WS now. The only way to balance this and have it still eat GL is give it a potency of 700-1000. That is massive for a class that is usually running +40% damage but it's the only way for it to be balanced and worth using on a regular basis.

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You know, I'd actually seen this mentioned in another forum and tested it just now. You're right, even under GL3, TK does slightly more damage than 6SS. That's actually pretty interesting as it means the calculations for TK openers I figured out were actually lower than they were supposed to be! Still, I don't think it needs that much of a potency boost since you can use it very frequently and regain GL stacks with PB or a 6SS+Anatman combo after Snap/Demo.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

Anatman having a cooldown more than 10 seconds honestly doesn't make sense. It's only use is to maintain GL, it doesn't generate it as fast as WS except for a server tick exploit, and is generally clunky to use. It should have a low cooldown and gotten thirty levels earlier.

Chakra has always been clunky and more so since removing IR. The whole system needs to be reworked.

Adding more charges to the few oGCD we have doesn't fix Mnk's core issues. It has no directions, and the core systems are clunky and hard to use.

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Given how Anatman can be used in a 5.0 TK rotation (which comes down to using 6SS+TK->FoF, filling in the CD with other oGCDs, followed by Snap/Demo, then 6SS+Anatman), if it were shorter than 45 seconds, you could span a huge number of TKs.

I don't think Chakra needs to be reworked entirely. Just needs a way to deal with chakra overflow. More Chakra uses can come in 6.0

Yeah, I really don't know if adding charges to EF or ST would help at all. I was just trying to please the community from what I've seen.

I really don't understand why Tornado Kick has to eat our GL, I desperately want to use it because it's like one of our few attacks that doesn't look boring but it's as if the devs don't want us to use it <_<.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

2. Increase the base potency of Tornado Kick to 380-400 and increase the potency to 430-450 when under GL4.

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After finding out the true potency of Tornado Kick is 430, it doesn't need as much of a boost as I original thought. I would still like a potency increase under GL4 though.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

5. Lower Anatman’s cooldown to 45 seconds.

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I still think this would be a nice buff, but with the edits to 5.0 TK Rotations I recently made, the current CD is actually fine so long as you know how to line it up with other raid buffs.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

4. Change the GL refresh of 6SS to “generates GL when under one or less stacks” and add the effect of “increases potency to 450 when at GL3 or GL4”.

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I wonder if, instead of the potency, 6SS kept its current GL refresh and refreshed the duration on the current form would work when balancing the classes. That would knock out another issue with using it at least.

Whoo! Still two weeks to go till they implement the rest of the battle changes! Here's hoping the suggestions here reach the devs! ;)

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

1. Change Meditation to an ability similar to Dancer’s Standard Step (in that it needs to be used on the GCD), but give it an added effect that excludes it from the 6SS recast timer.

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Still a pretty solid adjustment, though I hope Meditation is immediately usable after 6SS instead of going through another GCD cycle afterwards. Need to be able to get in 2-3 Meditation charges for this to be a solid adjustment. Everything else I'm (somewhat) ok whether they implement it or not, but this needs to be a thing in order to make 6SS a solid lv 80 move. :cool:

So a friend of mine came up with an interesting idea for Tornado Kick changes. While I'm happy with the new Tackle Mastery, I was still a bit disappointed to see the elemental tackles get removed. So what if monks were given a "Tornado Kick Mastery" trait that gave them elemental Tornado Kicks similar to their tackles in SB? Their effects could be this:

Earth Tornado Kick: Does AoE damage.
Fire Tornado Kick: Does more damage.
Wind Tornado Kick: Same potency, but only takes 3 GL stacks, leaving you at GL1.

ETK being for AoE aside, even though most players will go for more damage whenever possible, I feel like the choice between a FTK and WTK would still take a bit of thought because, while one does more damage, the other allows you to get right back into GL3 more quickly. So it comes down to "Big Damage" vs "Sustained Damage".

That said, I'm pretty sure such a change doesn't have a chance of being picked up before patch 5.05 and I will still gladly just take a flat potency increase on TK just as quickly, but it is an interesting thought in my opinion.

Stances need to be gone, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by KanameYuuki

Stances need to be gone, plain and simple.

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this^. i have a lot of problems with monk, so much so i dropped it as my second main, and stances being just one reason.
going 42 levels with fow only to move a little bit faster until 76 is... hmm.

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Originally Posted by KanameYuuki

Stances need to be gone, plain and simple.

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Why do they need to be gone though? Aside from FoE only being used in panic situations, I find myself switching between FoF and FoW all the time in my rotation. Never really had a problem with them and it keeps me on my toes (mind you, I'm saying this as a TK rotation user).

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Why do they need to be gone though? Aside from FoE only being used in panic situations, I find myself switching between FoF and FoW all the time in my rotation. Never really had a problem with them and it keeps me on my toes (mind you, I'm saying this as a TK rotation user).

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They serve no purpose besides the illusion of choice and depth, at the very least SE realized that making Riddles entirely independent from them, only to then proceed to lock GL 4 to FoW, I do hope they keep FoW walk speed as a trait or something, so useful for repositioning, specially since we lack a disengage.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Why do they need to be gone though? Aside from FoE only being used in panic situations, I find myself switching between FoF and FoW all the time in my rotation. Never really had a problem with them and it keeps me on my toes (mind you, I'm saying this as a TK rotation user).

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Because as Yuuki said, the Fist stances are an illusion of choice. You should only ever be in Fists of Wind because Greased Lightning 4 is a bigger DPS gain over Fists of Fire outside of building up to GL4 and throwing out a Six Sided Star and a Tornado Kick at the end of the fight.

This is the same problem they've always had, there's one dominant fist stance you should use for Maximum damage outside of extremely niche situations (Brink of Death/Weakness nuking your HP pool in Heavensward meant it was sometimes worth using Fists of Earth for example, but otherwise it was Fire all day every day). Unless there's a fundamental change in the way fist Stances are designed and there's actual reasons to cycle through them rather than just picking one and sitting in it, they're better off going away completely.

Pre-4.2 that might have been the case, but I just don't see it that way now. You clearly want to be in FoW most of the time, but if you want to end a burst window with a big attack, you switch to FoF before doing a 6SS+TK combo (since buffs are multiplicative), then stay in FoF as you build back up to GL4 (mind you, this is only something you'll do if you have Anatman off CD). And then there's FoE for panic situations and while not ideal, they do happen.

I can see them being pointless if you never try and use 6SS+TK mid-combat, but it's a very different story if you do.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Pre-4.2 that might have been the case, but I just don't see it that way now. You clearly want to be in FoW most of the time, but if you want to end a burst window with a big attack, you switch to FoF before doing a 6SS+TK combo (since buffs are multiplicative), then stay in FoF as you build back up to GL4 (mind you, this is only something you'll do if you have Anatman off CD). And then there's FoE for panic situations and while not ideal, they do happen.

I can see them being pointless if you never try and use 6SS+TK mid-combat, but it's a very different story if you do.

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Doing Six Sided Star and Tornado Kick mid combat is also a damage loss.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Doing Six Sided Star and Tornado Kick mid combat is also a damage loss.

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It's not a dps loss so long as you do it with the proper timing, which should only be after a Twin/TS and Anatman is off CD. It is pretty high risk though, in that you only want to do so during the tail end of a buff window. Also really want either TK or 6SS to crit/dh. Those 3 seconds of downtime during a 6SS+Anatman combo really hurt... ^^;

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

It's not a dps loss so long as you do it with the proper timing, which should only be after a Twin/TS and Anatman is off CD. It is pretty high risk though, in that you only want to do so during the tail end of a buff window. Also really want either TK or 6SS to crit/dh. Those 3 seconds of downtime during a 6SS+Anatman combo really hurt... ^^;

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It's not a dps gain either, so why even do it? Do people really miss TK rotation that much?

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Originally Posted by Takiwaki

It's not a dps gain either, so why even do it? Do people really miss TK rotation that much?

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Some people, like myself, do. It's just so much more enjoyable than doing the same 3 hit rotation over and over, but you're not quite sure if you're actually doing decent damage. I actually switched to Sam in 4.4 because of this. Then when I went back to monk and started using the TK rotation, it breathed new life into the class for me and was much more enjoyable, timing when to pop RoF or IR so you could get a TK off right at the end of those buff windows and it just hits for a lot.

Doing a bit more experimenting, I've found that it's probably better to hold Anatman for you RoF windows, since it's now in the same place PB was for SB, so you can use 6SS+TK at the end of all those, which makes the falloff from the following 6SS+Anatman combo less punishing. Then you adjust the PB rotation depending on the party comp.

I will agree with you that executing the TK rotation was very enjoyable compared to what it is now and I miss using the ability more. However, unless they give us a new way to instantly gain a stack using Tornado Kick mid rotation is not viable right now.

I can see Tornado Kick receiving a rework as it goes against every ability they gave us this expansion. It is currently only used right before a long transition and as the very last button you press. That leaves it at only 2-3 times used in an entire fight which is really bad.

I guess my point here is sure, you can do what you like and have more fun this way. However you would be doing better numbers overall by not using TK mid rotation right now.

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Originally Posted by Kazer

I will agree with you that executing the TK rotation was very enjoyable compared to what it is now and I miss using the ability more. However, unless they give us a new way to instantly gain a stack using Tornado Kick mid rotation is not viable right now.

I can see Tornado Kick receiving a rework as it goes against every ability they gave us this expansion. It is currently only used right before a long transition and as the very last button you press. That leaves it at only 2-3 times used in an entire fight which is really bad.

I guess my point here is sure, you can do what you like and have more fun this way. However you would be doing better numbers overall by not using TK mid rotation right now.

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But that's the thing, the way to gain GL stacks now isn't that much different than in SB. In SB, you'd either use PB to get back GL stacks after RoF window and/or you'd use Wind Tackle right after a Coeurl stance move to put yourself at 2 GL stacks. Now, you can still use PB to get all you stack backs (though you have to balance that with using it to spam LF Bootshine if you have a Nin in the party) and in place of using Wind Tackle after a Coeurl stance move, you use 6SS+Anatman to gain one extra stack, then keep your GCD rolling to gain the third stack naturally. It's literally the same in that regard.

The main difference now is GL4, which is why I initially said that TK should do more damage at GL4 or, if they gave TK the elemental treatment, a Wind TK could leave you with 1 stack of GL so you can instantly get to GL3 two GCDs later and three more to get to GL4 again (considering that GL4 and GL3+FoF give roughly the same damage buff, though the latter is technically more, you wouldn't really lose too much, if any, damage within those 3 GCDs to get back to GL4 again).

I understand the reasoning and technicality of what you're trying to do but I still dont recommend it. The key difference here is wind tackle gave an instant GL stack in an off global state. SSS into Anatman after TK causes you to lose two GL4 buffed globals, a properly timed fully buffed demo refresh, and possibly up to two auto attacks.

If we give you the best case scenario where you refreshed demo the cycle before the TS/True that leads into the TK > Snap > SSS (Anatman), it just does not add up. I only did some quick napkin math but if you add up the potencies leading up to the demo refresh which will happen 3 gcd after your SSS downtime (dont forget the damage bonus from GL stacks on each attack) yours falls short.

Not only would you possibly miss two auto attacks under GL4 (you cant auto attack during anatman) your demo refresh there would be under GL2 instead of GL3/4 which is a loss. We can say a different scenario but then you would refresh demo where? After the TK would be bad and having to do a later refresh again to overwrite it when you maybe reach GL 3 again would still fall short. Now my math may not be 100% as it was done quickly, but the weaker demo refresh and the two possible GL4 buffed gcd & autos missed closes the gap of throwing the TK out there.

This just is not recommended to do right now unless we get a different skill that gives us an instant GL stack or a big maybe, if anatman always gave a stack instantly, then you would secure 2 stacks during the SSS before your gcd was ready again.

I personally want to see a riddle of wind, which under FoF or FoE would grant 30s of GL4 or under FoW let tornado kick used for free. Making fist switching more of a choice than a requirement.

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Originally Posted by Kazer

I understand the reasoning and technicality of what you're trying to do but I still dont recommend it. The key difference here is wind tackle gave an instant GL stack. SSS into Anatman after TK causes you to lose two GL4 buffed globals, a properly timed fully buffed demo refresh, and possibly up to two auto attacks.

If we give you the best case scenario where you refreshed demo the cycle before the TS/True that leads into the TK > Snap > SSS (Anatman), it just does not add up. I only did some quick napkin math but if you add up the potencies leading up to the demo refresh which will happen 3 gcd after your SSS downtime (dont forget the damage bonus from GL stacks on each attack) yours falls short.

Not only would you possibly miss two auto attacks under GL4 (you cant auto attack during anatman) your demo refresh there would be under GL2 instead of GL3/4 which is a loss. We can say a different scenario but then you would refresh demo where? After the TK would be bad and having to do a later refresh again to overwrite it when you maybe reach GL 3 again would still fall short. Now my math may not be 100% as it was done quickly, but the weaker demo refresh and the two possible GL4 buffed gcd & autos missed closes the gap of throwing the TK out there.

This just is not recommended to do right now unless we get a different skill that gives us an instant GL stack or a big maybe, if anatman always gave a stack instantly, then you would secure 2 stacks during the SSS before your gcd was ready again.

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Using TK in general involves risk, even during SB. I still had those same issues of not getting demo under all the GL buffs back then since every situation wasn't ideal. Hell, even with this scenario, before we even get to a buffed demo, I know for a fact that you'll only get a LF Boot under GL2 very often. And I've actually had the chance to recently test the numbers and yes, if the 6SS+TK hits normally, it just barely fills in the gap from the 6SS+Anatman, meaning for there to be any kind of dps increase, the first combo needs crit/dh procs. That said, I've yet to test the numbers when using that same combo at the end of a RoF window, which would cause both moves to hit much harder even without the crit/dh procs (not to mention, that's one of the only times you were supposed to use TK in SB anyway). Essentially, the key to this is for 6SS+TK to hit as hard as possible for it to be any kind of gain, which has always been the case.

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Originally Posted by samurailargo

I personally want to see a riddle of wind, which under FoF or FoE would grant 30s of GL4 or under FoW let tornado kick used for free. Making fist switching more of a choice than a requirement.

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Huh. Not a bad idea, considering class mechanics like that exist. (A.K.A DRKs TBN).

Didn't you say you didn't want to tie your logs to your rotation because it would remove your credibility. That's a huge red flag, even you know this TK rotation is a dumpster fire when it comes to actually performing well, and with all the luck in the world and perfect timing you'll at best break even with the actual, optimal rotation. I don't mind you doing this, you do you, but spreading misinformation and hooking other players into this nonsense is just horrific. Why would you do that?

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Originally Posted by Carstien

Didn't you say you didn't want to tie your logs to your rotation because it would remove your credibility. That's a huge red flag, even you know this TK rotation is a dumpster fire when it comes to actually performing well, and with all the luck in the world and perfect timing you'll at best break even with the actual, optimal rotation. I don't mind you doing this, you do you, but spreading misinformation and hooking other players into this nonsense is just horrific. Why would you do that?

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The reason I didn't attach logs is because I don't really care about parse runs for relatively casual content (i.e EX trials and normal raids). I don't use any food or pots, and have only melded my gear with level 6 Materia. I'm even still running around with 430 boots. I'm saving all of those important resources for Savage content.

Another reason is because most people generally don't take the time to break logs down bit by bit. I'm honestly never even remotely impressed with high parses as the first thing I look at is party comp and buffs and sure enough, those high parses are padded. Thankfully, fflogs has a handy feature that shows raid dps, which you can use to find out a person's actual dps if you take away all the raid buffs.

I can admit to the rotation having a lot of flaws in the beginning when I first posted the TK guide. All the change logs say as much. However, I state in the beginning very clearly that a lot of my conclusions are based on simple calculations and that people with better tools should experiment to see how the rotation works out. I'd probably have been able to find all the problems in the beginning if I had tools to do so, however my options are limited as I play on a PS4. I also can't even remotely compare my rotation to others to see how it can be improved when a majority of people are just spamming the same 6 GCDs over and over, so I couldn't tell where the best place to use 6SS+TK would be or how many stacks I should gain when using 6SS+Anatman. I probably should have tried asking someone to help parse my rotation sooner, but it's pretty inconvenient to rip someone away for who knows how long to try a different rotation when there's an entire community just spamming the same 6 GCDs.

I apologize if this sounds whiny, but after two weeks since posting this guide, I've gotten a few people tell me "No, no, this won't work, no!" over and over, but never once has anyone tried it out and experimented to see what the flaws are, and gotten back to me on ways it could be improved. It's just been me going in, playing the game, trying out the rotation, figuring out what feels off and what could work better, and then updating what I've written so that the info is there for people to try out and experiment with. But when a majority of people don't want to try experimenting and would rather leave it up to a handful of people who find one way and stick to it, there's not much in the way of improving or making the class more fun to play.

People have already done the math though, you were told it doesn't work. I applaud your attempts to inject TK back into a viable rotation but the truth of it is, it doesn't work. You really think people haven't tried to fit it in? You think you're the only one? People with all those tools you're missing have tried, have looked over the data and concluded it's a no go with current monk. Oh, and despite what you say your reason is, me saying you didn't add them because of credibility is a direct quote from you. It's what you said. Don't backtrack.

Seems like we'll have to wait till 5.1 or 5.2 for SE to fix the issues with monk and the rest of the classes, lol. I really like a lot of the changes though. RoF is really good now and RoE is just amazing. The only one that I don't like is the GL refresh on Form Shift.

This change is clearly a poorly applied band-aid to the legions of players complaining about monk. It's only ever good in dungeons and honestly, I find it rather annoying that I have to spam form shift over and over. The more problematic thing about the Form Shift GL Refresh is that it completely shafted the GL refresh of RoE and Anatman, let alone 6SS. It can also trick people into not using TK in situations where it would be a dps gain (a prime example of this is E1 right before the add phase. The time it takes for the adds to hit the ground is so long that you can gain 3 or 4 stacks of GL with Anatman before you have to move). People might not like me for saying this, but I really hope SE removes Form Shifts GL refresh in future patches. I know making the class more fun for casual players is important, but from what I've seen with monk suggestions, people just don't want to deal with the intricacies of the class (even after SE made it a lot easier to keep up GL) and just want it to play like other classes while still keeping its crazy damage.

On another note, after messing with the class more and updating my 5.0 TK Rotation guide, I think the only real change SE needs to make to monk (besides getting rid of Form Shift's GL refresh) is to have 6SS give a stack of GL and for Meditation to be except from the 6SS CD timer. Add those and the class is solid.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Seems like we'll have to wait till 5.1 or 5.2 for SE to fix the issues with monk and the rest of the classes, lol. I really like a lot of the changes though. RoF is really good now and RoE is just amazing. The only one that I don't like is the GL refresh on Form Shift.

This change is clearly a poorly applied band-aid to the legions of players complaining about monk. It's only ever good in dungeons and honestly, I find it rather annoying that I have to spam form shift over and over. The more problematic thing about the Form Shift GL Refresh is that it completely shafted the GL refresh of RoE and Anatman, let alone 6SS. It can also trick people into not using TK in situations where it would be a dps gain (a prime example of this is E1 right before the add phase. The time it takes for the adds to hit the ground is so long that you can gain 3 or 4 stacks of GL with Anatman before you have to move). People might not like me for saying this, but I really hope SE removes Form Shifts GL refresh in future patches. I know making the class more fun for casual players is important, but from what I've seen with monk suggestions, people just don't want to deal with the intricacies of the class (even after SE made it a lot easier to keep up GL) and just want it to play like other classes while still keeping its crazy damage.

On another note, after messing with the class more and updating my 5.0 TK Rotation guide, I think the only real change SE needs to make to monk (besides getting rid of Form Shift's GL refresh) is to have 6SS give a stack of GL and for Meditation to be except from the 6SS CD timer. Add those and the class is solid.

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The Formshift change is one of the best changes Monk has ever received and if they had made the change going into Shadowbringers, redundant skills like Anatman wouldn’t have been implemented, Riddle of Earth could have been pruned or reworked into something a little less OP than a 30 second true North, and Six Sided Star could have had a different design instead of a 5th niche Greased Lightning management skill. TK’s use case hasn’t changed and anyone with the awareness to Formshift during down phases where they have control will have the awareness to at least try and TK before phases where they don’t.

Form Shift is unequivocally a good change, it gives Monk the basic buff upkeep ability other jobs have and it should be the foundation for reworking the rest of its kit.

They can't undo the form shift change now. It simply can't happen 90% of Mnk's will riot. It's what Mnk has needed for a long time. The simple fact is TK is almost never useful. Unless it gets a massive potency buff, destroying your 20% attack buff will never be a good trade off for a skill that does only slightly more than a majority of your attacks. The investment to build GL is simply too great. The only time it is useful is when you're ending a fight or there is a transition will you physically can not move for more then 15 seconds.

Mnk does need more to do but I would hope they would get more creative with it. Some ideas is changing weaponskills or giving bonus attacks based off weaponskill order creating combo attacks for different situations. I think this would be in the right direction to not focus on a constant build/break of GL, and still make Mnk feel fast and unique. It's likely at this point SSS and Anatman will be changed or replaced in a later update.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

They can't undo the form shift change now. It simply can't happen 90% of Mnk's will riot. It's what Mnk has needed for a long time. The simple fact is TK is almost never useful. Unless it gets a massive potency buff, destroying your 20% attack buff will never be a good trade off for a skill that does only slightly more than a majority of your attacks. The investment to build GL is simply too great. The only time it is useful is when you're ending a fight or there is a transition will you physically can not move for more then 15 seconds.

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Wow... I like how people still swear to heaven and back how 6SS and TK are virtually useless despite me writing an extensive guide on how to use them mid-rotation. I know not everyone has to time to look through a 33 page doc, but to not even want to go into the game and try hitting the dummy for a few minutes to compare rotations is astonishing...

Well, the main reason why we wouldn't want 6SS and TK is just how they are in their current state: Greased Lightning Management. One's used to refresh to maximum (though sometimes, the delay when using it makes it not refresh anyways) and to dump our stacks for a moderately powerful oGCD.

The Form Shift change allowing shifting from Coeurl -> Opo-opo was something that would've made Monk fantastically better for the past two expansions; to get rid of this change after just implementing it would all but sow chaos. That being said, we now have too much GL management in our kit. Riddle of Earth, TK, SSS, and Anatman are all now even more niche than they were to use, except Riddle of Earth which now gives 30 seconds True North, which I'd argue is the main use of this Ability now. Perfect Balance for the Opener and Form Shift for the upkeep are all we need.

While I did like the TK rotation, the one you propose doesn't incredibly impact DPS like it did before, and relying on Anatman as its crutch for generating GL mid-fight is very risky and reliant on server ticks, as well as not being used for its intended purpose, something that Devs really don't like, hence why we no longer have the TK rotation.

It's not that people don't necessarily want SSS and TK, just not their current form. But an overhaul is yet another expansion away and there's no guarantee that the class will progress, just like how Monks waited from SB to ShB. What I want to see happen is Greased Lightning stacks not be used as a resource. It is our core mechanic, not a resource pool, that is what Chakras are for. To have two independent "resource" pools might just be what the devs are being torn upon.

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Originally Posted by Xaert

The Form Shift change allowing shifting from Coeurl -> Opo-opo was something that would've made Monk fantastically better for the past two expansions; to get rid of this change after just implementing it would all but sow chaos. That being said, we now have too much GL management in our kit. Riddle of Earth, TK, SSS, and Anatman are all now even more niche than they were to use, except Riddle of Earth which now gives 30 seconds True North, which I'd argue is the main use of this Ability now. Perfect Balance for the Opener and Form Shift for the upkeep are all we need.

While I did like the TK rotation, the one you propose doesn't incredibly impact DPS like it did before, and relying on Anatman as its crutch for generating GL mid-fight is very risky and reliant on server ticks, as well as not being used for its intended purpose, something that Devs really don't like, hence why we no longer have the TK rotation.

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I did pick up on being able to start attacking the boss in Opo-Opo stance, but I've yet to see a reason to do since you usually want to start with a Demo on the boss after a long disconnect (mainly E3s). Only reason I can think of for doing so is if you have the LF buff up, but that's a 30 sec buff that's unlikely to wear by the time the boss becomes targetable again.

Using Anatman mid-fight really isn't that risky since you're only standing still for up to 3 seconds for a single stack. I guarantee that if you use 6SS+Anatman back to back quickly, you will always get a stack of GL. This is, of course, if you can find the time to do so, and I admit, you won't always be able to. As of writing this, I wasn't able to find a decent place to use it during the Cycle attacks of E2s and you absolutely can't use it during the panto phase of E3s (You can actually do it before the Tidal Wave mechanics, but you have to delay the 6SS+Anatman combo a couple of GCDs). It's not like you have to stick to using TK at the end of every RoF window. If the fight doesn't allow it, the fight doesn't allow it. Simple as that.

I actually think the devs actually support the TK rotation, since 6SS and Anatman seem to be used for just that purpose (and if they made 6SS give you a GL stack, it'd be amazing). As someone who doesn't double-weave unless it's absolutely necessary, I wasn't a fan of how I had to keep going with my rotation in SB when using Wind Tackle/RoW and being forced to either clip a GCD or do a True Strike while not in FoF. And from what I've seen and heard, other than the LB gain exploitations (which they touched upon during live letters), the devs don't punish players just because they use a game mechanic in a way that's not intended. For example, it was actually stated from Yoshi-P himself that the dev team didn't think about the tank LB strat for Byakko EX, but didn't patch it so that it couldn't be done because they didn't want to punish players for figuring that out.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Wow... I like how people still swear to heaven and back how 6SS and TK are virtually useless despite me writing an extensive guide on how to use them mid-rotation. I know not everyone has to time to look through a 33 page doc, but to not even want to go into the game and try hitting the dummy for a few minutes to compare rotations is astonishing...

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A guide that people have thoroughly debunked because they'd already tested using Six Sided Star and Tornado Kick rotationally and found it to be a damage loss outside of the extremely niche uses that people ascribe.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Using Anatman mid-fight really isn't that risky since you're only standing still for up to 3 seconds for a single stack. I guarantee that if you use 6SS+Anatman back to back quickly, you will always get a stack of GL. This is, of course, if you can find the time to do so, and I admit, you won't always be able to. As of writing this, I wasn't able to find a decent place to use it during the Cycle attacks of E2s and you absolutely can't use it during the panto phase of E3s (You can actually do it before the Tidal Wave mechanics, but you have to delay the 6SS+Anatman combo a couple of GCDs). It's not like you have to stick to using TK at the end of every RoF window. If the fight doesn't allow it, the fight doesn't allow it. Simple as that.

I actually think the devs actually support the TK rotation, since 6SS and Anatman seem to be used for just that purpose (and if they made 6SS give you a GL stack, it'd be amazing). As someone who doesn't double-weave unless it's absolutely necessary, I wasn't a fan of how I had to keep going with my rotation in SB when using Wind Tackle/RoW and being forced to either clip a GCD or do a True Strike while not in FoF. And from what I've seen and heard, other than the LB gain exploitations (which they touched upon during live letters), the devs don't punish players just because they use a game mechanic in a way that's not intended. For example, it was actually stated from Yoshi-P himself that the dev team didn't think about the tank LB strat for Byakko EX, but didn't patch it so that it couldn't be done because they didn't want to punish players for figuring that out.

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I'm not trying to disprove the efficacy of the Anatman/SSS efficacy within those hyper niche situations where it is a DPS increase, I'm trying to tell you the lack of practicality of it is its own downfall. The devs aren't going to punish players for using certain skills outside of their specified uses. It's not like they handed out bans for people employing the TK rotation, but the simple fact that they made the TK rotation unviable post-SB is more than clear that they didn't like the TK rotation, otherwise a good portion of Monk's new skills would expand upon that rotation, evolving it from being the most optimal rotation found by the playerbase into the normal rotation. Anatman being risky is attributed to being reliant on server ticks, where the closer to the tick you are, the higher your DPS will be instead of just standing still for those 3 seconds. Any rotation that can't be employed with absolute certainty at the time required shouldn't be normalized. When I heard the Anatman rotation was the most optimal rotation, I decided I'd let my sub run out and wait for the future until Monk didn't need such a rotation for optimal DPS. Little did I know 5.05 would change Monk.

As for the Form Shift change, I left out the crucial detail where it refreshed Greased Lightning going from Coeurl -> Opo-opo, that's my bad, since that's why I mentioned it. This is the biggest game changer for Monk currently and in the future.

Personally, I just don't see the payout for using this rotation, though using TK for a damage increase would be nice. However, I also equally would not like to use SSS, for clunkiness and not-so-short GCD or Anatman. Anatman would've been much bigger had we not gotten the Form Shift change, but this change is just too critical to not use. With this, GL management is complete and as such we should practically never be losing GL in any situation that's not right before the target dying with no subsequent targets. If the rotation was more black and white, per say, a boss that always has no positionals and/or is stationary a fantastic portion of the time, I think many more people would be accepting of this rendition of the rotation.

I guess my rebuttal is: If using this and losing GL4 only does increased damage in these rare situations, why just not use it and maintain GL with our new tool if it isn't make or break? "If we can, we should"?

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Originally Posted by Xaert

I guess my rebuttal is: If using this and losing GL4 only does increased damage in these rare situations, why just not use it and maintain GL with our new tool if it isn't make or break? "If we can, we should"?

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I think the bit that's getting to me (which it shouldn't since this is the internet) is when people keep saying that 6SS, TK, and Anatman can only be used in niche situations when they can easily be implemented in the regular rotation. That said, it's really a choice of play style. Not using TK is a lot simpler and does consistent dps while using TK does roughly the same amount of damage, but can be potentially higher if 6SS and/or TK crit (since both moves are more potent than a LF Bootshine), though you do have to know a fight inside and out to find the perfect times to use it mid-combat. It's just really satisfying when you see a crit for 37-40k and a dcrit for 48-50k on a monk, which is why I'm a die-hard fan of using TK as much as possible. :cool: