What is the Caster Role for 5.0 Going Forward and Where is balance?

With the introduction of Stormsblood, we layed a foundation for actual Role responsibilities and strengths. To me, these responsibilities and strengths in 4.0 were:

Tanks- Tanks have a very controlling role set, focused on interrupts, damage reduction and enmity management.

Healers- healer role skills are transitional from the old class system and were already considered part of their toolkit. They provide the main mp restore of the class, access to instant cast and a party wide defense buff.


Melee- Close combat physical DPS have a sturdier role set with a focus on helping their fellow melee/physical party members.


Ranged Physical- BRD and MCH have very supportive role actions. Access to enfeeblements, party wide resource regain and a physical defensive buff for the tank. As a whole most of their skills work their intended purpose. Their role is supporting everyone with resources and tanks with defensive utility.

Ranged Magical- Casters are supportive towards their healers, helping to mitigate magical damage and provide MP to their healers or bard. They are glass cannons and have heavy access to enmity management.

Breaking down how I feel the roles have changed focusing on their role skills and common utility:

Tanks, I feel stayed true to their role completely from STB to SHB. Arm's length has added a duality in its use, antiknockback for raid situations to complement gap closers, and a 20% slow for trash.

Healers traded protect for players having higher natural HP. More role skills moved from WHM to share via repose.

Ranged Physical moved towards more controlled AOE mitigation. They lost their ability to help with recovering TP after death (which is now irrelevant) and powerful MP sustain. MP is taking a hit this expansion from the loss of this skill alone. They still have their enfeeblements for possible raid contributions (y tho) and a working interrupt. Best of all they have an antiknocback this time around too. Its also nice for accidental aggro pulls in trash.

Melee have pretty much stayed the same. The removal of TP and Emnity cleaned their role skills down to 7. Crutch was removed, ( a neat idea, but not frequent enough or rewarding to use) focusing melee more on its own survival with feint for physical mitigation.

Casters are where it changed the most for me. We went from supporting the healer with manashift/Erase/Apocastasis to melee level focus on itself, while providing no self healing/mitigation tools. Down to 4 role skills, compared to tanks and other roles at 7 and 6 each respectively. We bring addle, just as melee brings feint. Black mage can't even use Lucid, so it essentially has 3 role skills.

Is Progression vs Farm a viable class balance?

Casters can also be broken down into two groups:

Those who are True Damage Dealers:
Black Mage

Those who can Raise:
Red Mage
Summoner

With the two distinctions we have this maximum upper tier Damage Dealer with two smaller safety net classes. This safety net balance does not exist in any other role. Balancing Each other role is "Personal DPS + DPS Raid Utility vs Personal DPS + DPS Raid Utility" and "Defensive Support/Self Mitigation vs Defensive Support/Self Mitigation" with each role having an answer for these balances. ["Shield Samba vs Tactician vs Troubadour" as an example.]

How can the caster role exist and be balanced when it can be divided into Progression tier Caster, Flexible Caster and Farm Caster? This again, isn't an issue with any other role.

With the MP changes, SMN and Red Mage are in a much less powerful position in terms of raiding. Refresh isn't there to help with deaths. SMN and RDM (especially for its easy dualcast access) are both punished for the capability to raise even when its not in use, just because its there. [This time around SMN/RDM are much closer than they were in StB relative to BLM, with SMN probably needing a slight DPS buff to compete with a 2 melee, 1 ranged Embolden. This is fine, so long as Personal DPS vs RDPS is balanced out, between the two classes.] Over Buffing SMN/RDM though would put BLM in a "Why should I try hard to be the best possible DPS, when I can do just a little less and have much more control over deaths." Its a bad situation.

Support and Consequences:

Raise in general just does not feel good. It is powerful and it gives us something to be useful, but by doing it, we are again, doing what no other DPS class does, lowering our DPS in support of the party, when our DPS is the focus of our class. We have little mitigation/support, especially compared to STB caster, but have a direct punishment for death amongst our party.

Leveling Dancer with Shield Samba and Curing Waltz really helped me to appreciate its class design, if only in flavor. A Dancer's job is to deal a lower portion of damage than the other ranged physical classes, making up most of their DPS via their RDPS contributions. Curing Waltz's main use in my eyes, isn't about Raid wide healing so much as it is about making sure your DPS partner stays alive and healthy. Esprit and their RDPS create a direct incentive to look out for your partner's well being, stacking on them specifically as probably the most mobile class in game, to trigger a decentish heal for yourself and your partner.

Just wanna hear general thoughts and opinions on where people feel RDM/SMN/BLM would be balanced/if they are balanced or what changes would need to be made to balance them. I didn't mention any specific changes (I don't think.) Also, do you feel casters have any truly defining role qualities anymore? I feel like in general, we are moving to a more selfish playstyle amongst all roles, and it just happened to hit casters especially hard. We can't be both the iconic highest DPS role in the game, while also being the safety net [In my opinion at least.]

One thing casters do bring is Res Utility, and this is a role that I feel is defined by casters but that Black Mage breaks because "lore," or some other similarly weak excuse. Res utility is pretty valuable unless your team is always perfect enough to never die, and if they gave BLM a res (make it a thunder spell on a 1m cooldown, instant cast, cost no mana or all mana, and name it defibrillator, and that should be balanced enough) and Casters would have their role clearly defined as "We clean up your mistakes." Which is what they kind of are, but not black mage.

This is kind of the weird thing with the roles. Melee DPS all have a defined role that shares between them outside of support, ranged DPS all have a defined role shared between them outside of support. Tanks, healers, same thing. Black mage is kind of the odd man out because it doesn't provide the unique thing other casters do.

There's also the weirdness of a couple supports innately hurting you for certain compositions, E.G. Red Mage hurts having more than 1 caster DPS, Monk flat out doesn't help caster DPS, and these inconsistencies are strange to have when the devs wanted to help break metas, not reinforce them.

If they were to redefine casters, I'd say it should be around res utility, just give BLM a very weak res for large mistakes, and possibly re-add refresh or mana shift and let casters support healers again directly.

I'm of opposite mind to Tanarok. No DPS should ever be focused around an ability to heal, and in essence that is what raise is: a 25% HP heal that can only target incapacitated party members. Instead, casters should be focused on having overwhelming power: to quote Zyneste, glass cannons. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I play spellcasters, my goal is to be a destructive force of nature and not a back-up healer. IMO, SMN raise and RDM raise should be shackled or outright removed from the game, and both their damage potentials raised to compensate.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I'm of opposite mind to Tanarok. No DPS should ever be focused around an ability to heal, and in essence that is what raise is: a 25% HP heal that can only target incapacitated party members. Instead, casters should be focused on having overwhelming power: to quote Zyneste, glass cannons. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I play spellcasters, my goal is to be a destructive force of nature and not a back-up healer. IMO, SMN raise and RDM raise should be shackled or outright removed from the game, and both their damage potentials raised to compensate.

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I'm 100% with this sentiment. Imagine if MNKs and NINs had nerfed dps because they had a melee version of rescue. After progression, it would almost never be used, but the dps tax would always be paid for that ability, even when farming. SAMs and DRGs would be the only desirable melees when progression is over. Melees would rightfully throw a fit.

Raise and casters is just as terrible feeling and kind of ridiculous to me. Why do casters have a progression caster and a farm caster? Why do no other roles have this separation (now that AST got wrecked)? Raise and its dps tax is why. Removing the dps tax would make BLMs obsolete. Giving infinite MP BLMs raise would blow SMN and RDM out of the water entirely. Removing raise as a caster ability, though, would only serve to elevate SMN and RDM.

Simple choice, really.

Res utility isn't a caster thing though.

Res was a SMN thing because it was an Arcanist thing, because of SCH.
RDM has a res, because it's a Red Mage.
BLM came before both of them.

If we get a fourth caster, it shouldn't, and there's no reason why it should, have a res.

But I'm fine with it being this way.

Physical Ranged DPS have a gradient of utility, from MCH having least, to DNC having most.
A similar paradigm for casters works well too, BLM least, RDM most.

I'd rather play a job than a role. I see no reason why Caster need all be glass cannons or all support-DPS. I prefer the variety we have, and would even like to see that variety expanded upon.

As it stands, Role Actions still muddle that diversity, making it sort of trip over itself when on one extreme or the other, but the value of Role Actions, if their capacities were just accounted for, is almost nill.
Just remove their bloat and give higher base MP regeneration, more ways to counterattack interrupts, more immediate and reliable ways to deal with brief but sustained forced movement (still varying Caster to Caster), and their own utilities into the class kits themselves.

Voila, no more role identity confusion. You're quite simply a BLM, a RDM, or a SMN. Where party utility exists for these it is noticeable, cohesive, and strong, but comes at cost of dps as not to make it obligatory to balance downward from.

First and foremost a Caster's role is to DPS, always. I don't think you can try and lump what they do other than what role actions they have. SE has taken a tiered approach to each job in that role starting with pure dps then flowing down with the more utilities it adds. Basically caster have Addle that would define that role. Physical Ranged DPS has a defensive buff and debuffs; Stun, heavy, interrupt. Melee have stun and lower damage debuff.

Many think BLM should get a raise to finish fleshing out caster as a utility of that role but it does take away from RDMs claim to fame.

Lastly SE defines "Magical ranged DPS attack foes using a variety of arcane arts. Movement is restricted by casting times, but they excel at inflicting high burst damage."

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'd rather play a job than a role. I see no reason why Caster need all be glass cannons or all support-DPS. I prefer the variety we have, and would even like to see that variety expanded upon.

As it stands, Role Actions still muddle that diversity, making it sort of trip over itself when on one extreme or the other, but the value of Role Actions, if their capacities were just accounted for, is almost nill.
Just remove their bloat and give higher base MP regeneration, more ways to counterattack interrupts, more immediate and reliable ways to deal with brief but sustained forced movement (still varying Caster to Caster), and their own utilities into the class kits themselves.

Voila, no more role identity confusion. You're quite simply a BLM, a RDM, or a SMN. Where party utility exists for these it is noticeable, cohesive, and strong, but comes at cost of dps as not to make it obligatory to balance downward from.

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This about sums up how I feel.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I'm of opposite mind to Tanarok. No DPS should ever be focused around an ability to heal, and in essence that is what raise is: a 25% HP heal that can only target incapacitated party members. Instead, casters should be focused on having overwhelming power: to quote Zyneste, glass cannons. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I play spellcasters, my goal is to be a destructive force of nature and not a back-up healer. IMO, SMN raise and RDM raise should be shackled or outright removed from the game, and both their damage potentials raised to compensate.

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Okay, but right now BLM doesn't have it and that's a serious consideration to have when you flat out don't have res utility on the caster DPS slot, since not having it puts a ton of pressure on the healers during prog or, on the flip side, removes a ton of pressure from healers if you happen to have a double caster group with smn/rdm.

The current situation is bad though and BLM suffers more for lack of it than it would suffer because of having it.

Also, there is not and can never be such a thing as "glass cannon" in FFXIV because of the way encounters and healing is designed. Fundamentally, every DPS is a glass cannon in the game because of this, even if some of them do more damage than others. Every DPS dies to the same things usually, they can survive the same things, the only difference is whether you have Manaward or nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Res utility isn't a caster thing though.

Res was a SMN thing because it was an Arcanist thing, because of SCH.
RDM has a res, because it's a Red Mage.
BLM came before both of them.

If we get a fourth caster, it shouldn't, and there's no reason why it should, have a res.

But I'm fine with it being this way.

Physical Ranged DPS have a gradient of utility, from MCH having least, to DNC having most.
A similar paradigm for casters works well too, BLM least, RDM most.

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No, it's a caster thing. 2 of the 3 casters have it, and Arcanist got in combat resurrections before you could even be a Scholar. The inclusion of Red Mage more or less sealed res utility being a thing on casters since they added it at a time when they were starting to remove abilities they didn't want SMN to have that was there because of scholar. So because of that, it ended up being caster utility.

Sure, you can remove it, or you can keep it, but as long as the majority of casters have it, any caster not having it is a serious balance problem and motivation against taking that class.

And the type of utility I'm talking about on ranged is Shield Samba. It's a baseline thing that all of them take that's very powerful. 2 of 3 casters have something in the same vein, the third does not.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Okay, but right now BLM doesn't have it and that's a serious consideration to have when you flat out don't have res utility on the caster DPS slot, since not having it puts a ton of pressure on the healers during prog or, on the flip side, removes a ton of pressure from healers if you happen to have a double caster group with smn/rdm.

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First let me say that removing raise from casters likewise removes this consideration. My entire point is that the caster role shouldn't be defined by healer abilities and support like raising. That's the healer's job in my opinion, plain and simple.

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The current situation is bad though and BLM suffers more for lack of it than it would suffer because of having it.

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The state of Red Mage's MP actually has my Red Mage not doing any of the raising whatsoever in EX level content right now. Both healers handle any and all raises unless both Swiftcasts are down, it's one of the healers that died, or it's both of the healers that died. The Red Mage handling any more than that runs them OoM and at the point they're OoM, they're worse than dead.

My Red Mage has actually started leveling Black Mage because, "I do less damage because I have a utility that I can't use in most practical situations. I'm a weaker Black Mage, so I might as well level Black Mage."

So as far as Black Mage suffering because it's "the caster without a raise," at the current moment (I don't know about Summoner), Red Mages are watered down Black Mages because they have the raise. Which again goes back to just getting rid of raise on casters entirely; it's not a DPS's job to have to worry about that.

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Also, there is not and can never be such a thing as "glass cannon" in FFXIV because of the way encounters and healing is designed. Fundamentally, every DPS is a glass cannon in the game because of this, even if some of them do more damage than others. Every DPS dies to the same things usually, they can survive the same things, the only difference is whether you have Manaward or nothing at all.

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You have a point... until you start telling me some of those glass cannons should do less damage because they can also repair other glass cannons in a pinch. It's not a cannon's job to fix a cannon.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Which again goes back to just getting rid of raise on casters entirely; it's not a DPS's job to have to worry about that.
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To be fair we could say this about any job in the game. PLD shouldn't be using Clemency as it's the healer's job to worry about that, or RDM/DNC/BRD shouldn't be providing heal/esuna support as again it's the healers job. A number of role actions cause several jobs to have access to the same thing, again causing toe stepping on who should or shouldn't be doing things. Granted these are not the same as Raise, but we can't be isolating certain hybrid jobs just because some other jobs can't do the same thing, they all have specific strengths to make up for shortcomings. FFXI was pretty heavy in jobs doing multiple things, should be nothing new for XIV.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

To be fair we could say this about any job in the game. PLD shouldn't be using Clemency as it's the healer's job to worry about that, or RDM/DNC/BRD shouldn't be providing heal/esuna support as again it's the healers job. A number of role actions cause several jobs to have access to the same thing, again causing toe stepping on who should or shouldn't be doing things. Granted these are not the same as Raise, but we can't be isolating certain hybrid jobs just because some other jobs can't do the same thing, they all have specific strengths to make up for shortcomings. FFXI was pretty heavy in jobs doing multiple things, should be nothing new for XIV.

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Beyond that XIV and XI are very different games, the thrust of this comes down to "These are not the same as Raise." Raise is a strong enough utility that we're even having this conversation; it goes beyond the PLD or RDM being able to sacrifice an entire GCD of damage for healing. Raise is a very specific ability; it's a single-target heal that can target incapacitated players. With casters as they are now, Taranok has a point: Black Mage is at a disadvantage being the only caster that has no access to it. With 66% of the role having it, the role is starting to get defined by it. The caster DPS role is being defined by raising, which is ostensibly a healer utility. It shouldn't be, which is my point.

Casters should be walking nuke factories, not back-up healers. Sure, part of the flavor of RDM is they're part White Mage; if that's the excuse that says they have to have raise, then whatever. Restrict it to a 60s oGCD then remove it from Summoner entirely would be an okay compromise; RDM keeps this weird niche of "It can raise real good!", do pitiful damage and never get taken into raid anyway, and the caster role can stop being defined by raising.

i agree with the OP

blm is the dps caster , it has no rez but who cares u have 2 instant rezs already every min (there is always 2 healers )
smn no clue but looks like tons of issues
rdm is the stepchild , because it can "possible" rez fast (what if isnt needed at all?) the dmg is subpar.

why would any1 bring smn or rdm when u have better options? MCH/brd bring dmg with 100% movility , dnc bring support , blm brings top dmg.

rough times for rdm smn .

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

i agree with the OP

blm is the dps caster , it has no rez but who cares u have 2 instant rezs already every min (there is always 2 healers )
smn no clue but looks like tons of issues
rdm is the stepchild , because it can "possible" rez fast (what if isnt needed at all?) the dmg is subpar.

why would any1 bring smn or rdm when u have better options? MCH/brd bring dmg with 100% movility , dnc bring support , blm brings top dmg.

rough times for rdm smn .

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In a raid scenario, BLM would have to be the "main dps" due to it's playstyle. Typically in a party without a BLM, strategy is based around melee up time with ranged DPS doing any mechanics that would allow melee to sit on boss. However that changes with BLM. BLM is at it's peak when it doesn't have to move at all, so most strategies are based around allowing the BLM to not have to move unless necessary so they wouldn't die.

With SMN/RDM, strategy does not have to change. They pretty much take care of themselves. It's why you normally don't see a SAM/MNK/BLM paired together.

I'm fine with the way rezzes work now. I think removing them would make complicated raids nearly impossible to clear. I don't think blm needs rez. Smn rezzes once a minute (ideally unless things go very wrong) and rdm is capable of keeping the party afloat as needed. If I had a dollar for every time I've saved a party from wipe on smn I'd be rich. I don't mind being there as support. FF MMO has always had some varying degrees of support and it feels to me that's part of the job.

Now, as low as rdm and smn dps are right now, it does feel super punishing to do the rez work we used to do fairly easily. Figuring out how to fix smn overall and pumping up smn and rdm dps to the proper places is what would make me the happiest. I get rdm takes a bump due to the ability to rez and embolden, but rezzing so much in pug content is taxing. I almost think rdm could use some other utility? Something that would make it more viable in savage? I'm not much of a savage player now so maybe I'm not speaking fairly. Feels like being that low in dps is just an unfair punishment. Smn needs both a dps boost and a rotation fix. We've got all kinds of problems and are not in a great spot atm. We need that fixed first before we can even look at what to do. We lost some utility overall, devotion is good but only every 3 min. Phoenix heal seems weak and we can't time the thing to be useful, which is annoying. For smn, we need to turret so much now and have so low damage to go with that it doesn't feel good. But I miss the mobility overall.

I haven't done savage content in a while, so I get that the same rule apply differently there. However, I don't believe anyone's dps should be so low it automatically bumps them from being used in a savage group setup. If so, then that's a failure on SE's part.

I have been a believer of making the raises on a long CD( 3-5 min) but instant cast for casters. That way it doesn't really impact me being a caster dps but also gives me a utility. Meant to be clutch for raising a healer or something to save the other healer mana/time. Just make it a trait past 82+ (If they don't do it this xpac, it may be too late to do such a drastic change?) Then RDM's could be given something that feels more fitting for support that benefits both prog/farm parties for them to still be desirable. Embolden Is pretty good however lacks synergy with other casters/healers. RDM's are heavily taxed on their mp currently that they can't really raise like they used to.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Okay, but right now BLM doesn't have it and that's a serious consideration to have when you flat out don't have res utility on the caster DPS slot, since not having it puts a ton of pressure on the healers during prog or, on the flip side, removes a ton of pressure from healers if you happen to have a double caster group with smn/rdm.

The current situation is bad though and BLM suffers more for lack of it than it would suffer because of having it.

Also, there is not and can never be such a thing as "glass cannon" in FFXIV because of the way encounters and healing is designed. Fundamentally, every DPS is a glass cannon in the game because of this, even if some of them do more damage than others. Every DPS dies to the same things usually, they can survive the same things, the only difference is whether you have Manaward or nothing at all.



No, it's a caster thing. 2 of the 3 casters have it, and Arcanist got in combat resurrections before you could even be a Scholar. The inclusion of Red Mage more or less sealed res utility being a thing on casters since they added it at a time when they were starting to remove abilities they didn't want SMN to have that was there because of scholar. So because of that, it ended up being caster utility.

Sure, you can remove it, or you can keep it, but as long as the majority of casters have it, any caster not having it is a serious balance problem and motivation against taking that class.

And the type of utility I'm talking about on ranged is Shield Samba. It's a baseline thing that all of them take that's very powerful. 2 of 3 casters have something in the same vein, the third does not.

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BLM is not suffering in any way. All the top EX clears have one now.
It's 'glass canon' role comes into play as a turret, rather than having less HP/defense. Which means it's vulnerability is entirely dependent on player skill.

And before RDM, there was 1 caster with a Res. It's not a caster thing.

If you give BLM a res, it's DPS gets nerfed, that's the reality.
Nerf BLM DPS and it becomes useless, because of its playstyle. THEN it will suffer as MNK/SAM will always be chosen over BLM for DPS, and SMN/RDM will always be chosen over BLM for mobility/utility.
BLM's USP right now is its high DPS.

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Originally Posted by Alym

I'm 100% with this sentiment. Imagine if MNKs and NINs had nerfed dps because they had a melee version of rescue. After progression, it would almost never be used, but the dps tax would always be paid for that ability, even when farming. SAMs and DRGs would be the only desirable melees when progression is over. Melees would rightfully throw a fit.

Raise and casters is just as terrible feeling and kind of ridiculous to me. Why do casters have a progression caster and a farm caster? Why do no other roles have this separation (now that AST got wrecked)? Raise and its dps tax is why. Removing the dps tax would make BLMs obsolete. Giving infinite MP BLMs raise would blow SMN and RDM out of the water entirely. Removing raise as a caster ability, though, would only serve to elevate SMN and RDM.

Simple choice, really.

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I mean, we say that, but by the end of SB, a top-percentile Caster of any job outperformed a top-percentile NIN for tDPS (each in their optimal compositions for their own tDPS). And for most of the expansion, SMN frequently even outperformed BLM, sometimes even in pure pDPS. Its "dps tax" was painfully overstated.

But, I too dislike the idea of "prog" vs. "farm" jobs. Our first example was of course 2.0 WAR vs. PLD, where WAR's self-healing could eventually eclipse PLD's mitigation in light, overgeared content. Across all expansions we've seen it faintly with just more lenient jobs vs. perfectly optimizable jobs (though sometimes those have been, by fluke of balance, one and the same anyways). It was subtle, but any further distinction of casters by their obligatory utility or lack thereof will only hurt the role. I like having utility, but it should come at cost enough that the "dps tax", where/if actually balanced for, has no place, such as through appropriate uptime, throughput, or resource costs when making use of that utility.

Atm BLM isnt up to par with the avarage melee or physical ranged dps. However.. we never know. Maybe its just a stats thing and having better gear coming up in coming patches will fix it a bit.. maybe a little bit help of the devs and it will all be fine.
It probably is not the best time to already talk about who needs buffs and who needs nerfs though so not gonna go further at that.

For now however BLM is pure damage with 0 utility. When we stand still 24/7, the damage is equal to dragoon/samurai (if lucky) .. however.. the moment we have to move even a cm, we get shot down to the amount of dps some good off-tanks already can manage :D
As a pure damage job, thats never a good sign :D

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

BLM is not suffering in any way. All the top EX clears have one now.
It's 'glass canon' role comes into play as a turret, rather than having less HP/defense. Which means it's vulnerability is entirely dependent on player skill.

And before RDM, there was 1 caster with a Res. It's not a caster thing.

If you give BLM a res, it's DPS gets nerfed, that's the reality.
Nerf BLM DPS and it becomes useless, because of its playstyle. THEN it will suffer as MNK/SAM will always be chosen over BLM for DPS, and SMN/RDM will always be chosen over BLM for mobility/utility.
BLM's USP right now is its high DPS.

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Its not high though atm. Not compared to the other DPS.
Thats the issue XD

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

Its not high though atm. Not compared to the other DPS.
Thats the issue XD

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So we definitely don't want to nerf BLM dps for a res then.

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

Atm BLM isnt up to par with the avarage melee or physical ranged dps. However.. we never know. Maybe its just a stats thing and having better gear coming up in coming patches will fix it a bit.. maybe a little bit help of the devs and it will all be fine.
It probably is not the best time to already talk about who needs buffs and who needs nerfs though so not gonna go further at that.

For now however BLM is pure damage with 0 utility. When we stand still 24/7, the damage is equal to dragoon/samurai (if lucky) .. however.. the moment we have to move even a cm, we get shot down to the amount of dps some good off-tanks already can manage :D
As a pure damage job, thats never a good sign :D

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BLM is consistently the highest dps in all current content among all levels of skill. IE fflogs.com. Where are you getting your numbers from?

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Originally Posted by Miskatonic

BLM is consistently the highest dps in all current content among all levels of skill. IE fflogs.com. Where are you getting your numbers from?

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Just a small nitpick, BLM only takes top spot after 70th percentile on Innocence EX, but you are mostly right, we BLMs have nothing to complain at level 80 content right now (low level BLM sucks tho) performance is great and the jobs feels just right to play.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

Just a small nitpick, BLM only takes top spot after 70th percentile on Innocence EX, but you are mostly right, we BLMs have nothing to complain at level 80 content right now (low level BLM sucks tho) performance is great and the jobs feels just right to play.

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My bad I should have clarified I was looking at both trials combined, and dungeons combined too

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

Its not high though atm. Not compared to the other DPS.
Thats the issue XD

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BLM is the DPS with far and away the highest DPS though.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

Just a small nitpick, BLM only takes top spot after 70th percentile on Innocence EX, but you are mostly right, we BLMs have nothing to complain at level 80 content right now (low level BLM sucks tho) performance is great and the jobs feels just right to play.

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Sort of irrelevant. Sub-80th percentile is, given the competitive level of fflogs, generally a failing of your ability to perform the basic duties of your job and maintaining your ABCs. If you're dying and not playing the job correctly that shouldn't really be taken into consideration for whether a job is 'good enough' in the way Timeraider is talking. There's a separate consideration for skill floors and ceilings, but saying BLM doesn't do well (ie, isn't topping other jobs by notable margins at reasonable percentiles) because you personally might not be doing well is similar to saying tanks should be nerfed because you personally are doing less dps than them in a dungeon.

BLM is currently very competitive at a farm level, and (hopefully) can continue to maintain that level going forward. it's likely to be a pain during prog but that's nothing new, and it's likely it will become the best caster when prog is over. That being said I'm not sure what the magic numbers are for SMN and RDM going forward to have similar performance. They're already better during prog, but as someone else in this thread pointed out it's not necessarily fair to pay the prog tax forever. At the same time there's a reason we can gear multiple jobs, and it's not unreasonable to prog on one job and switch to another (I personally might go MCH first then swap to BLM when we're done for example).

BLM dps is great as is. If a BLM is having trouble with a fight then that's on them. Even in random comps that don't cater to a BLM's strengths (i.e. running a MNK/SAM/DRG as the other 3 dps) BLM can pull some hefty weight on their own. Knowing the fight is more key for a BLM than arguably any other dps class due to how critical it is to minimize movement.

As for casters in general, or really any kind of "off-role" ability, I like that stuff. Making everything fit within too tight of a role confine reduces it's interest and value as a unique job. If RDM and SMN lost raise, or BRD lost it's Esuna, or DNC lost Curing Waltz, then you kill a little bit more of what makes each job different. As a DNC I like knowing that I can top off the raid after a stack aoe, and the healers I've been running with have come to appreciate that as well.

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Originally Posted by Quor

BLM dps is great as is. If a BLM is having trouble with a fight then that's on them. Even in random comps that don't cater to a BLM's strengths (i.e. running a MNK/SAM/DRG as the other 3 dps) BLM can pull some hefty weight on their own. Knowing the fight is more key for a BLM than arguably any other dps class due to how critical it is to minimize movement.

As for casters in general, or really any kind of "off-role" ability, I like that stuff. Making everything fit within too tight of a role confine reduces it's interest and value as a unique job. If RDM and SMN lost raise, or BRD lost it's Esuna, or DNC lost Curing Waltz, then you kill a little bit more of what makes each job different. As a DNC I like knowing that I can top off the raid after a stack aoe, and the healers I've been running with have come to appreciate that as well.

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Bard Esuna/prevention and DNC's Curing Waltz get to see the light of day because they are OGCD and cost nothing. Those who use them effectively are fundamentally better at their role than those who don't, but don't affect your personal DPS at all.

Raise spells cost GCDS. You have a direct disincentive to raise. You're losing DPS and who knows the healer might be getting them up as you cast your raise as well. On top of that MP is a real issue this time around. Our MP sustain is about equal to what we spend. If we raise someone, without a break in the fight well have to carry that raise burden on our MP for the whole fight.

I loved the feeling of control I had on STB RDM. 2 Mitigative tools against magical attacks. A small heal to make up for the difference of a vuln stack. Manashift to keep your healers healthy. MP that could recover fairly easily.

Now I'm down to just 1 mitigative tool against magical attacks and MP so weak I have to decide if I can afford to use Vercure during downtime to proc Dualcast.

The caster role has become pretty 1 dimensional already. Moving raise to the OGCD on a 60 second timer, would help to at least balance SMN/RDM and keep them balanced in RDPS/PDPS since you couldn't tax one more than the other since they would have the same raise potential.

Hot take: I think an effort needs to be made to flatten out the slope between casters.

No, I don't mean that every caster needs to be equal or homogenized -- go on leaving Raise out of the hands of a BLM.
But, Raising itself needs a standardized DPS value like other utilities; SMN and RDM both have access to it, but SMN suffers a lower damage penalty for having it (since it can't game Dualcast) and also brings some hefty utilities aside that massively increase its value. RDM on the other hand virtually just brings Raise and still pays a full tax for holding it, meaning its value plummets after progression. Standardizing the value of Raise means reducing this tax on RDM, which opens avenues for either higher damage or (more fittingly) even stronger utility that can retain a value throughout progression, such as En-elementing allies' weapons or hastening spells.

And what do I mean by standardizing? Well for a start, make Verraise an exception to Dualcast, so RDM isn't treated like it theoretically casts it 4 times a minute (since it shouldn't).
Perhaps reduce the penalty for healers throwing Raises as well, so that it isn't "preferable" for a DPS to spend their own MP doing so.

I also think this means BLM should have a utility in some form. At the going rate, BLM's our Magikarp, gaining all of its QoL effects late in the leveling process and gaining its value late in progression when death is a non-issue (both meaning they don't have to sit out for someone with Raise and that their value isn't 1:1 scalar to Weakness) and gear amplifies their output.
I'm not saying BLM needs to plummet in the damage rankings, but something small to stabilize their value within a group could go a long way.
Besides, throwing out curses is pretty iconic.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

1. Raising should be considered to have a damage (rDPS) value.

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This is pretty much an unworkable concept. Reason being is that while yes, you do get a damage gain from raising people (alive people do more damage than dead people after all) it's incredibly flawed.

1. While raising someone is a dps gain like trick attack, the situation you're in to make it a gain is incredibly situational (someone is dead) and is inherently a 'lose less' effect. Unlike trick where it's always good to use (you always gain), and there's more value to it the more you use it and the better your placement is, the more you use Raise the more terrible a situation you're in. The fact it gets better (substantially so) the worse your party is doing means that it's the best tool in the game under ideal (everything is terrible) circumstances. Thus, the penalty should be high to have a raise because it lets you clear when any other raid buff or utility fails you.

2. It's a tool two members of your party are required to already have. As long as deaths occur no more than twice a minute your healers can almost always get everyone up, and if the healers have it covered it's meaningless to have it. This isn't like trick where having two ninjas gives you two trick attacks, it just gives you another move you probably should never touch. In that way, having a raise is completely meaningless.

So which do you choose? Is the flexibility to raise when both healers dead the most powerful tool in the game and should thus be considered meta-defining? Should it be expensive not only in resources but also DPS? If you had a job that was as impactful as a heal LB3 on tap every minute or more should it be crushed by the weight of a tool that you should never want to use?

Do you balance Ninja's as if they don't have trick because they might never use it?

For raises I feel it's pretty evident that giving them a real value in rDPS or whatever is meaningless. When they're needed they're more powerful than any buff in the game (so clearly they should do less DPS than Dancer) but when they're not they're a powerful tool you never ever use.

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

Atm BLM isnt up to par with the avarage melee or physical ranged dps. However.. we never know. Maybe its just a stats thing and having better gear coming up in coming patches will fix it a bit.. maybe a little bit help of the devs and it will all be fine.
It probably is not the best time to already talk about who needs buffs and who needs nerfs though so not gonna go further at that.

For now however BLM is pure damage with 0 utility. When we stand still 24/7, the damage is equal to dragoon/samurai (if lucky) .. however.. the moment we have to move even a cm, we get shot down to the amount of dps some good off-tanks already can manage :D
As a pure damage job, thats never a good sign :D

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Where are you getting this data? From the site that shall not be named, 75th percentile on Titania X, BLM is heads and shoulders above the next guy (SAM). In the other primal, the second highest DPS does 88% of BLM's damage.

What metrics is BLM subpar by, especially compared to melee DPS, the strongest of which (SAM) is about a thousand on average behind it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

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I feel like the rDPS that can be provided by Raise is far too variable, and its unquantifiable value far too situational, to attach any strict pDPS cost to compensate for. You should not attach a notable dps cost to something that already requires another dps loss in order to see any use. In either case, though, its only value would be in the time or resource (MP or Swiftcast where somehow valuable outside of rezzing, itself) saved for healers, which is relatively minor. One could easily say, even, that the Raise cost for RDMs was often greater than for that of healers, if limited to a single use per minute.

Moreover, especially in regards to SMN, the "dps tax" from Raise has always been disgustingly overstated. SMN's lower pDPS relative to BLM could already be comprehensively explained by Devotion and Contagion in SB. Without a single caster, it was already competitive with BLM without needing a single Raise. With a BLM, that BLM's damage during Contagion nearly guaranteed SMN the highest tDPS of any job. I would argue that the same applies to RDM; RDM didn't fall behind other casters because it was a rez- (aka optimization-procrastination) machine, but because it was quite simply undertuned. In its optimal compositions after its buffs, however, its tDPS was no joke, its best runs falling more closely to highest tDPS contribution than any two runs by the same max percentile player of any other job (i.e. within the standard deviation of just crits from one run to another).

You put.

The raise.

Into the caster role section.

And give it a 5 minute cooldown.

Boom, done, everyone is happy, buff Summoner and Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You put.

The raise.

Into the caster role section.

And give it a 5 minute cooldown.

Boom, done, everyone is happy, buff Summoner and Red Mage.

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I mean, I'm all for nerfing Verraise (... I'm imagining the possibilities of Verraise as a multi-charge ability on a lengthy CD per charge) and possibly SMN Resurrection if it means making RDM and SMN better for the jobs they're supposed to do while still retaining the emergency tools, and I'm for giving BLM more utility so their contribution isn't solely based on their damage output, but I'm not necessarily certain this is the best route for either?

For starters it basically just takes the old issue with Erase to an extreme: It stepped on the healers' toes, making it preferable for casters to expend their cooldowns first before the healer expended MP. (Looking at the state of RDM right now, I wouldn't call that much of an improvement.)
Granting with a 5 minute cooldown you'd only get it about twice per encounter, maybe 3 if it was used early, and such a long cooldown would ideally be saved for if a healer went down or had no MP to bring up a tank, but with the way raises work it would be easy to lose the CD without clear communication of who should use what and when.

Second, it means not only taking Resurrection away from ACN (which means needing to go through the whole route of giving one to SCH that is available to them retroactively so they don't fall behind CNJ and AST in synched content, which means either finally separating SCH from ACN or making all Raises a role action), but also giving one to BLM which... doesn't really fit BLM from multiple perspectives even outside of balance. No Black Mage through the FF franchise has had a Raise ability, because the job has always been about crippling enemies and reaping selfish benefits.
Which, to be clear, I believe both of which still have highly utilitarian opportunities, particularly in the field of throwing out debuffs, or enhancing damage in a manner where the BLM reaps the most benefit.
But at its core, the express definition of "Black Magic" is "everything White Magic isn't" and vice versa. I could sooner see BLM being the only caster with an interrupt (Pain? Curse? Fog?) or getting Reflect under the pretense of a groupwide "Spikes" skill, than a Raise.

Quick reply because it ate my last one.

Erase had multiple issues that made it underwhelming. Any number of buffs to it could have fixed it. The skill did not step on any healer toes. No more than the TWP does. Clemency, which trades dps for healing is an example of stepping on Healers toes.


Black Magic isn't the opposite of white magic. They are two seperate schools of magic that have created different paths for very similar effects. Black magic focusing more on destruction and White Magic more healing. White magic still has a very powerful destructive toolkit. They both draw on ambient Aether. They both can manipulate that Aether into greater magic reserves [thin air manafont.]

Raise on BLM makes about as much sense as it does on any magical class. When 5 magic classes know raise, and typically at a low level, it can be assumed that it's a fairly simple spell that shares its roots all across the arcane.

Not saying I want BLM to receive raise, but thematically, BLM are adept in many schools of magic. A raise wouldn't break lore to me if it's a generic role ability taught to all would be mages.

I think this is the first time I've heard someone argue the problem with Erase was that it was too weak. In fact largely all the feedback I've seen about it was "bring it and Apocatastasis back".
My concern with it, which I suspect the devs shared, was that each caster was encouraged to take on some of the burden of healing in order to save healers the effort of casting Esunas for any kind of DoT. That in itself could just be argued under "utility" like Paean, until you get to a point where purging DoTs becomes the casters' job that healers pick up slack on, by way of free instant oGCD Erase always being preferable to Esuna.

I'd argue that "White Magic is capable of destruction just like Black Magic" is a gross oversimplification. For starters, while Stone, Aero and the Holy series are damaging, they're nowhere near as destructive as any Black Magical equivalents as a point -- and to make that comparison against Black Mages invites the claim that Black Mages "can" self-sustain through Manaward, but likewise, nowhere near as well as White Mages, nor the same way (White Mages beseech the Elementals for aid to make their spells cheaper, Black Mages just rip straight from the life of the land to recover their reserves faster).
In which case, the pair are quite literally Yin and Yang. Even if we argue the definition of "opposite" versus "inverse", that doesn't mean Raise is as open to the Black Mage as anyone else, especially if the Black Mage is incapable of even the most basic healing that "every other caster" has as a stepping stone. That's like skipping to surgery without knowing any first aid.

Hence "I could see BLM getting Reflect sooner than Raise," since we at least dabble in barriers.

BLM has never been better.
I did a E4 run yesterday as BLM, and managed to dodge everything while maintaining Enochian, with barely any downtime thanks to nicely timed TC/Xeno procs, and well timed Swift/Triplecast. I probably had less downtime than the melee, given all the times you have to run away from him.

So the claim that "if you have to move your damage plummets" is blatantly false.
You just need to learn to play a mobile BLM. Learn to slidecast, work out the best times to triplecast, hold onto those procs a little longer for movement phases.