SAM is undertuned again.

To start, here's the hard data:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1045
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1046

There's nothing wrong with BLM having higher DPS than SAM. It's harder to play; it should be a bit ahead. And MCH should absolutely be third in line, but given their mobility and utility advantage they should definitely be behind SAM by a bit more than they are. After that is where things get silly.

Monk and Dragoon both have AOE party buffs that make them desirable. They're behind us by about 1-2% personal DPS and have AOE damage buffs. DRG is clearly significantly stronger than monk given that they have better utility and they're so close behind MNK.

Ultimately, I think everything from and including monk needs higher personal DPS. I realize there's going to be some variability from fight to fight, but I feel confident that the same old lolSAM trend is emerging.

I'd prefer to see straight potency buffs over a rework of anything but Shoha which probably shouldn't exist in its current form. Shoha just ensures that fights which have significant downtime periods will skew SAM while those without it will cause us to suffer.

I think they should take the Shoha animation and have it play on Tsubame-Gaeshi if you double up a midare, add a ton of extra DPS and some recast delay so I can actually watch the animation for once (I haven't seen it all the way through yet because it works horribly as an OGCD), and I'll be a happy camper.

We need Hagakure.

For a second there I thought you were serious o_ô

Only melee thats undertuned right now is Ninja, Dragoon is way to strong for how easy it is to play though.

Not sure if its samurai that is undertuned or if its machinist that is overpowered but one thing for 100% sure is that Shôha is pathetic and absolutely need a massive buff/rework.
We knew before ShB release that is was a useless skill and they left it intact...

So let me get this straight:
You get a shôha stack per meditation proc, it takes 5 procs to get shôha to full power wich will pretty much NEVER happen and on top of that there is a 30 secs TIMER on your shôha stacks? for a 500 potency attack? ARE YOU MAD?

I've seen it mentioned many times but they should rework it so that you simply get a shôha stack when you use Midare Setsugekka and NO TIMER ON IT.
Use Midare 5 times and you get your full power shôha. Or maybe a shôha stack per Hissatsu Seigan used... idk
And obviously it needs far better potency. As it stand right now it's just laughable honestly...

Yep. I'm afraid SAM and SMN are the new ShB clown jobs until SE doesn't decide to do something about it.

The game is too easy as is. Buffing almost everyone is a bad suggestion. Better would be nerfing the top ones.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Yep. I'm afraid SAM and SMN are the new ShB clown jobs until SE doesn't decide to do something about it.

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Tfw it's the two jobs I'm leveling right now.

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Originally Posted by Nanami_Naniwa

For a second there I thought you were serious o_ô

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Friend, the reason SAM is expected to have such higher DPS than other jobs is because it's what's called a "Selfish DPS" as in, it basically adds nothing of value in terms of buffs or utility AT ALL to the party. It has to actually do enough more damage than the others to be viable to bring this job without these things. Then it fits a perfectly fine niche role as a "buff receiver" who can do a lot with the buffs other jobs give it.

Being only slightly stronger than the other Melee DPSes who all bring good utility ain't it, fam.

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Originally Posted by snipski

Only melee thats undertuned right now is Ninja, Dragoon is way to strong for how easy it is to play though.

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This is a silly argument...,

Given almost every job now is easy to play lol.

I’ve tried plenty of jobs and I’m NGL, they play smooth as hell. They’re not mechanically difficult at all

Granted I haven’t tried all, and there’s claimed to be 1 or 2 are pretty complex. But I’d honestly say the difficulty between most jobs right now are pretty even.

to try say Dancer Bard SAM or jobs like this are harder to play then dragoon is crazyness realistically, even SE Admit they're simplifying jobs, this is to allow People access to it and content by taking the Curve away from Jobs and Putting in the content. i've played Machinist bard i played SAM i played Dragoon, none of them i found particularly Difficult to realistically pick up and get the Idea of the goal.

maybe Summoner is as complicated as they say, maybe Ninja is also , i hear they offer a great depth of complexity to really maximise, however, 2 Jobs out of the 14 which exist Do not set a bar of "difficulty among DPS". so lets not throw around the "its too easy to be that effective" card, because it could be proclaimed to majority of the jobs currently. People not to leave this concept of "my job is harder then yours".. because the only thing that makes a Job hard is what u specifically suffer at doing.

for example, i've at a point mained almost every DPS Job within the same expansion, and i'll be serious.

I picked up every one of them faster then Dragoon, i litterally Suck at Dragoon, i couldnt even Survive the fight long enough to get its Opener executed before dying, even though i had Picked up Monk and Ninja and done the same mechanics. Its a shame because i came to this game BECAUSE of dragoon, but i litterally cant play the thing to save my life.

FFXIV apart from 1 or 2 jobs Realistically come to Muscle Memory, Its just learning a Opener.. learning a Rotation/Priority list its not hard, hence why alot of people in SB proclaimed Summoner was Easymode even tho new players to the job Found it so complicated and punishing to pull off, the games Job System is built to be Easy for a Experienced Player and be initituve enough to give a New player the aid it needs to learn that job. when every job in the game is simplified each expansion to introduce New players into it, ofcourse people who are older to the game will find them easymode, ur suspose to.

Its just as Simple as that, the problem is, people cling to "difficult" Jobs to avoid this stigma of "your job is Easymode"... while they sit on a Job which is Just as Easy to play. jobs arent made to be difficult, the content is. the difficulty doesnt come from repeating the Exact same set up for the 500th time today.

SAM is in a very tough spot because of this, especially with the resistance down debuffs being gone. It's highlighting how it absolutely needs something to stand up when the other 3 melees offer more.

MNK with Brotherhood and Mantra, DRG with Litany and Eye, and NIN with the godlike Trick Attack.

All having their own dots, while not as amazing as Higanbana are naturally part of their rotation and don't need a cashout for their gauge to use.

I leveled up SAM as my first dps to 80 in SHB and I do like how fun it is, but the removal of Hagakure (a staple I loved using in 4.0) and the addition of the absolutely bizarre Shoha don't help it's case. Not every fight is going to have the downtime to maximize on Shoha and also with the meditation stacks being on a timer doesn't even help it in the long run. You're looking at best maybe 200 extra potency (3 ticks) off an OGCD which is nice but I feel we should gradually earn these stacks through other means.

Hell even if Seigan would add a stack on for landing it, I think even that would be nice to add on.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Snipped

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I totally agree. Its actually at the point for me with NIN that the complexity of the job just isn't worth the reward, since as it is currently, NIN is pretty undertuned (TA doesn't come close to making-up the low damage output NIN current does in a EX's). If I'm going to be putting out about as much dps as a job that doesn't require 15 fingers to play, why am I putting myself through all this effort to master a job when its still going to be less useful than everything else? Give me the easier rotation/job and let me contribute more.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

MNK with Brotherhood and Mantra, DRG with Litany and Eye, and NIN with the godlike Trick Attack.

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Even with TA, you still do less dps with a NIN in your party because their dps is so obscenely low atm, that you more than make-up for the dps gap by just taking a higher dps job.

IN a party with a NIN and a party that replaced their NIN with a SAM, the party with the SAM will do more dps.

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Originally Posted by BigBossCL

I totally agree. Its actually at the point for me with NIN that the complexity of the job just isn't worth the reward, since as it is currently, NIN is pretty undertuned (TA doesn't come close to making-up the low damage output NIN current does in a EX's). If I'm going to be putting out about as much dps as a job that doesn't require 15 fingers to play, why am I putting myself through all this effort to master a job when its still going to be less useful than everything else? Give me the easier rotation/job and let me contribute more.

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I don’t think that’s entirely true, I mean if we reallly break it down.

If u look at logs, the problem here is you have to remember the utility is being pushed into the pure dps. Which means the ninjas dps will look even lower as it isn’t being padded at all.

And I think ninjas are what logging at a max of 9.5k odd and averaging around 9k.

If you think the highest damage is 13k and that’s on a padded BLM it prolly means BLM can do like 11.5k dps without any buffs

Ninjas 2.5k dps behind in dps begins for giving the entire raid burst windows. Logs show numbers, but they’re showing numbers under variations of padding and not true personal dps.

And you have to remember that sadly difficulty of your job doesn’t contribute to balance. All jobs have to be balanced in what they are reguardless of the difficulty to play it. A mmorpg would never be successful on that sort of design realistically.

If u ask me TA shoulda been deleted and ninja should have gotten a few utility buffs and became a midway dps/utility being around bard levels of dps. But I guess they didn’t wanna do that.

But that aside.

In reality the ninjas Rdps is pretty strong and your above dancer PDPS by quite a margin and when comparing actual dps between.job to job the numbers aren’t huge.

Logs don’t show it but it won’t ever show that, look at dragoon and bard in SB their dps looked abysmal on logs.

It’s because the dps are being padded by players picking ninja and more and able to fit their bursts into those windows bolstering their dps.

Brotherhood is on a much shorter CD than Litany while Dragon Sight is a meager 5% on a single target every 120s. Dragoon is, frankly, where it should be. If they were to nerf it, you run the risk of Dragoon serving no purpose.

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Originally Posted by BigBossCL

I totally agree. Its actually at the point for me with NIN that the complexity of the job just isn't worth the reward, since as it is currently, NIN is pretty undertuned (TA doesn't come close to making-up the low damage output NIN current does in a EX's). If I'm going to be putting out about as much dps as a job that doesn't require 15 fingers to play, why am I putting myself through all this effort to master a job when its still going to be less useful than everything else? Give me the easier rotation/job and let me contribute more.

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I never saw myself supporting this but recently, I have been leaning closer to them nerfing Trick Attack and buffing Ninja's potencies. The sheer amount of work required just doesn't justify the reward anymore. Ninjas have to jump through hoops for their rotation, need to line up Trick timings and get stuck on LB duty. And for what? Crap damage.

Granted, I do actually like a lot of what Ninja got this expansion. Too bad the implementation of it seems... lackluster to put it mildly. Bushin is extremely underwhelming, Meisui suggests they want us to convert Suitons into more Bhav yet that's proven to be a DPS loss half the time and we're now forced to double weave which causes tons of clipping. It really feels like Ninja had a good conceptual design but they flubbed on the execution.

My suggestion would be to rework Shoha into a Hagakure-like ability. Have it consume Sen for an oGCD attack with potency based off how many Sen you spend. Give it a decent cooldown and potency. This would give SAM that flexibility that Hagakure gave while adding damage that isn't for niche situations like current Shoha.

Another idea is to have ticks of Higanbana have a chance to give stacks for Shoha instead of meditate. This is similar to the soul voice of bard.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Brotherhood is on a much shorter CD than Litany while Dragon Sight is a meager 5% on a single target every 120s. Dragoon is, frankly, where it should be. If they were to nerf it, you run the risk of Dragoon serving no purpose.



I never saw myself supporting this but recently, I have been leaning closer to them nerfing Trick Attack and buffing Ninja's potencies. The sheer amount of work required just doesn't justify the reward anymore. Ninjas have to jump through hoops for their rotation, need to line up Trick timings and get stuck on LB duty. And for what? Crap damage.

Granted, I do actually like a lot of what Ninja got this expansion. Too bad the implementation of it seems... lackluster to put it mildly. Bushin is extremely underwhelming, Meisui suggests they want us to convert Suitons into more Bhav yet that's proven to be a DPS loss half the time and we're now forced to double weave which causes tons of clipping. It really feels like Ninja had a good conceptual design but they flubbed on the execution.

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Tbh if they nerfed it’s damage slightly and deleted Litney it’d be fine.

We are aware ninjas do over 11k dps right? O.o if you look up the top ninjas, they are only 2k dps behind the highest BLM in the game... if u look them up, the averager and maximum numbers put Ninja 2k DPS below BLM which is the highest DPS. they really arent as bad as people are saying i think there is some sorta exaggeration used, in SB Ninja was Defintly Not within 2k DPS of the Pure BLM jobs. i think most of the problem is, SE have done as much as they can now to remove 60 second burst windows.. which has Innately nerfed TA.

imho, they need a New type of utility to offer, Remove TA and Introduce some Mechanics which hold more weight in a Raid enviroment.

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Originally Posted by Snowborn

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1045
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1046

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75th percentile means nothing, but your talking about an aggregate difference of 60 to 150 rdps total. Sams are fine buff nin and dnc.

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Originally Posted by Veshiro

My suggestion would be to rework Shoha into a Hagakure-like ability. Have it consume Sen for an oGCD attack with potency based off how many Sen you spend. Give it a decent cooldown and potency. This would give SAM that flexibility that Hagakure gave while adding damage that isn't for niche situations like current Shoha.

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Now that's an awesome idea!
Something like that would be nice:
1 Sen = 250 potency
2 Sen = 500 potency
3 Sen = 750 potency
CD = 60 sec

That's just an exemple, i don't know what potency/cd it should have to be balanced but anyway, anything would be better than our current Shôha...

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Originally Posted by Veshiro

Another idea is to have ticks of Higanbana have a chance to give stacks for Shoha instead of meditate. This is similar to the soul voice of bard.

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Cool idea too! It could even motivate people to actually use double Higanbana to make Shôha proc faster!

Alright so right now there's 4 very cool idea i've seen to rework Shôha:
- Midare Setsugekka give a Shôha stack (no timer)
- Hissatsu Seigan give a Shôha stack (no timer)
- Hagakure effect on Shôha, consumme sen to attack
- Shôha proc with higanbana, like bard dots do

Hope these ideas get to the dev team. Shôha in its current state is 100% unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by BigBossCL

Even with TA, you still do less dps with a NIN in your party because their dps is so obscenely low atm, that you more than make-up for the dps gap by just taking a higher dps job.

IN a party with a NIN and a party that replaced their NIN with a SAM, the party with the SAM will do more dps.

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I know personal DPS for NIN is low but I thought makes up for that by providing the best rDPS through TA. I mean we're talking a 10% damage increase for 10 seconds that would line up with most people's burst phase.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Tbh if they nerfed it’s damage slightly and deleted Litney it’d be fine.

We are aware ninjas do over 11k dps right? O.o if you look up the top ninjas, they are only 2k dps behind the highest BLM in the game... if u look them up, the averager and maximum numbers put Ninja 2k DPS below BLM which is the highest DPS. they really arent as bad as people are saying i think there is some sorta exaggeration used, in SB Ninja was Defintly Not within 2k DPS of the Pure BLM jobs. i think most of the problem is, SE have done as much as they can now to remove 60 second burst windows.. which has Innately nerfed TA.

imho, they need a New type of utility to offer, Remove TA and Introduce some Mechanics which hold more weight in a Raid enviroment.

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... wha? If, for whatever reason Litany were deleted, why would Dragoon then be nerfed? That destroys the whole job. Dragoon would be downright worthless in this scenario. They don't need a nerf currently, and especially not if Litany were removed. That would essentially make them a Samurai.

As for Ninja. You need to look at the parse itself. Those top ranked Ninjas are being padded up the wall. The 100th was given literally every buff the party had; Spire, Bole, Dragon Sight, Dancer buffs; everything. This is why you typically look at the averages because it helps filter out padded runs.

I feel like both Meditate and Shoha should be reworked. Both are far too situational for a lvl 60 and 80 skill respectively. Like, it's stuff you would expect as side filler that is rarely used (which would still be bad mind you). It just seems like an idea that sounded cool but doesn't really work well in practice. If we were just to adjust the values to make it solidly viable, Meditate should last for 5 seconds and give 20 Kenki per second and have Shota do 200 potency per tick (1000 at max). At that point, 5 seconds for both 100 Kenki and a 1000 potency attack would make it worthwhile to actually use regularly. Considering Samurai has 0 utility, bumping their damage by making two bad abilities worthwhile would really just be killing two birds with one stone.

meanwhile playing SMN is like playing high APM starcraft and does trash can DPS yet you are here complaining about SAM XDD

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Originally Posted by adamswagem

meanwhile playing SMN is like playing high APM starcraft and does trash can DPS yet you are here complaining about SAM XDD

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To be fair, both are in a crappy spot.

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Originally Posted by adamswagem

meanwhile playing SMN is like playing high APM starcraft and does trash can DPS yet you are here complaining about SAM XDD

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Actually, I already responded about SMN in which I said that if the DPS didn't go up with the increased difficulty to optimize the class in 5.0 that potency should be adjusted. I also suggested a couple QoL things to make it easier to manage. It's fine if they want us to be more busy, but I think an increase in DPS should follow such a change, certainly not a decrease. However, I think Samurai, and some other classes too, could use some adjustments as well. I do think Ninja and Dancer aren't outputting enough personal dps currently for example even in respect to their raid utility. I think all four classes could use about a 10% (give or take) increase in damage output if potency was the only thing to be adjusted.

Been with SAM with various EX clears. No problems at all. And some of the logs are high because of dancer.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

... wha? If, for whatever reason Litany were deleted, why would Dragoon then be nerfed? That destroys the whole job. Dragoon would be downright worthless in this scenario. They don't need a nerf currently, and especially not if Litany were removed. That would essentially make them a Samurai.

As for Ninja. You need to look at the parse itself. Those top ranked Ninjas are being padded up the wall. The 100th was given literally every buff the party had; Spire, Bole, Dragon Sight, Dancer buffs; everything. This is why you typically look at the averages because it helps filter out padded runs.

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U believe dragoon doesn’t need a nerf?

It holds powerful utility. With like 4th highest dps. It litterally renders multiple other jobs worthless

It should not be doing 12k+ dps with good utility.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

You believe dragoon doesn’t need a nerf?

It holds powerful utility. With like 4th highest dps. It literally renders multiple other jobs worthless

It should not be doing 12k+ dps with good utility.

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Problem is that you suggested they remove their utility and nerf it both, which would indeed make Dragoon pointless. They can either nerf it or remove its utility, but not both. Not to mention that nerfs are no fun, unless a job is truly, entirely overperforming, it feels better to bring underperforming ones up to par instead of doing the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

U believe dragoon doesn’t need a nerf?

It holds powerful utility. With like 4th highest dps. It litterally renders multiple other jobs worthless

It should not be doing 12k+ dps with good utility.

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As Vallerie noted, you wanted both a nerf to their pDPS and the removal of the only raid utility they have. What does the job offer at this point? It has no utility but would be far weaker than Samurai, Machinist or Blach Mage; the "selfish" DPS jobs.

That being said, no, I do not believe Dragoon needs a nerf in either category. Brotherhood is a powerful utility. In fact, Monk itself does slightly higher damage than Dragoon. So why, pray tell, should the latter be brought down lower? Furthermore, what jobs does it render "worthless"? Monk's lack of popularity is entirely the fault of bad design; Ninja is in a similar bind due to the sheer amount of clipping it has, and Samurai could use a damage buff. None of the melee problems are Dragoon related. It just happens to be the one job they got right out the gate—likely because very little actually changed.

I said so earlier but it bears repeating. Dragoon is no longer than utility king it was once. It has a single buff on a three minute CD. This essentially makes it Monk; a high damaging melee DPS with some utility. And before someone mentions Dragon Sight. 5% ever two minutes is laughably weak. Imagine current Astro using only one card every two minutes and you'd still have a stronger buff than Dragon Sight. The 5% is a little bonus for an ability that is ultimately meant for you.

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Originally Posted by Vallerie

Problem is that you suggested they remove their utility and nerf it both, which would indeed make Dragoon pointless. They can either nerf it or remove its utility, but not both. Not to mention that nerfs are no fun, unless a job is truly, entirely overperforming, it feels better to bring underperforming ones up to par instead of doing the opposite.

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I meant or, not and.

Either they’re utility or a small damage nerf. Didn’t reliese I had written and.

I’d agree with the second statement. If it wasn’t the fact sooooo many jobs would have to be readjusted for it to work and that would create a power leap.

Because not only would SAM and Machinist have to be buffed but BLM would have to also be buffed to measure.

Once you have done this suddenly the gap between the top and bottom are far too wide causing every job to have to a buff.

This creates a environment where ur not adjusting meta slightly but one thing flying under the radar would cause a entire meta shift on a raid release.

Buffing sub par jobs are fine when more then one thing is imbalanced. Dragoons position on the dps board is litterally warranting SAMs irreverence is fine except machinist is ment to match them meaning they will also require a equal buff. Which then puts them too close to BLM

Dragoon balancing without nerfs would require a litteral dps bracket change.

Take the logs and stats with a grain of salt since it's just entry EX fight and also they are padded to hell between DNC and AST buff.

SAM is indeed under-tuned but i think the worst offender is the fact the Devs decided to turn us into another DRG with no utility with how kneecapped our freedom is now. We no longer have the freedom to choose whatever SKS we want and instead have to focus on specific sks tier in order to keep our main attack lined up or we're at risk of loosing a good chunk of damage, add to that the removal of Hagakure and we lost our ability to reset our sen and adapt on the need (along with a small nerf with a longer cd).

But it's just things we'll have to deal with, at the moment SAM just need 2 thing:
•A straight bump of 3-4% to our damage to keep us in close range of the BLM dps, which is where we should stand at. The DNC buff pretty much show that with a damage buff close to the 5% the DNC give, we're at the strength we should have as a selfish melee DPS and it keep with what the dev wanted of SAM, a hard hitting focused dps.
•The 2nd thing is the rework of Shoha, into a skill that either use Kenki or sen in order to be used or copy the concept of Stardiver and make it only use-able during Meikyo. Regardless of how its done, Shoha need a severe re-work as its use is fairly limited to 1 or 2 time per fight. Some will say you can use it more often but unless you're forced out of Enpi range, Enpi remain a better use of our time (you'd have to idle for 6s if you're unlucky with the first tick to match the damage of 1 Enpi and you'll rarely sit idle for that long for now )

Nerfing the other DPS is somewhat pointless and is never a healthy path to take unless the current buff are way too overpowered and break the balance of the jobs. What is needed is a balancing of the classes to be the role their supposed to be, DRG is in perfect position as it's not meant to be the top DPS but should still be able to fork out good damages while it bring some utility, same goes for MNK, it should be slightly above DRG as it's the fast punchy boi but can loose DPS if its forced out of positional due to mechanic; let's not forget that, they may hit hard but, as it was shown with the titania dummy hp (drg dummy having near 2M hp), is that they're expected to drop positional and by doing so loosing DPS in favor of mechanic. The current DPS stats "ranking" reflect that, the only problem is that SAM is way too close of the other melee DPS, when it should be ahead by a decent margin to validate its use over the others as we lack utility.

sorry if it's kind of a mess to read, been doing back and forth to it while being busy with RL

As someone who relies heavily on Hagakure, it hurts. Ikishoten is nice, but it is nowhere a replacement. Hagakura have a very important feature for me aside from converting kenki. IT RESETS SENS!!!!!!!! I use it to avoid having to waste midare when I need aoe instead. Now, there's no way to reset my sens :(

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

As someone who relies heavily on Hagakure, it hurts. Ikishoten is nice, but it is nowhere a replacement. Hagakura have a very important feature for me aside from converting kenki. IT RESETS SENS!!!!!!!! I use it to avoid having to waste midare when I need aoe instead. Now, there's no way to reset my sens :(

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agree with you. I hope they give us hagakure back honestly, even if it gives 0 kenki i'd take the ability to reset sen.
Casual samurais may not miss hagakure because they didnt use it in the first place but high level samurai definitely needs it!

Make shoha like 200 potency per sen up to 600 potency 3 sen with ogcd 30s. What you guys think?

More like drg is overtuned into oblivion, actually impressed they were able to design a job like drg and shaft sam all expac long, kinda like what they did with monk during hw. Strange how history tends to repeat itself?

I've adapted pretty well to the loss of Hagakure. It does feel a lot more restrictive, but I've been able to adapt my buffs, meikyos, etc, to match up without too much issue.

Shoha is terrible, though. I'm able to use it twice on Titanita ex, for a whole 1000 potency total, but before I can even cast it, I have to waste time reapplying my buffs after the down time, which can eat up the last 30 seconds fast, especially if you've got your more powerful buffs and abilities taking priority.

I think Sam is in a good spot and doesn't really need a huge buff, but we should be closer to BLM than what we are, though I know some of those numbers are skewed because DNC always choose BLM over me as a partner, inflating their numbers even more.

I agree that samurai could use some potency buffs. Close that gap between blm and sam. And slightly widen that gap between mnk and sam. Also, shoha rework/buff plz :)

Is it just me, or does Kaiten not affect Tsubame-Gaeshi?
Midare seems to be doing either the same or more damage than Kaeshi with Kaiten <_<....
With crits it's like a 10k+ difference, it's really weird...

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Is it just me, or does Kaiten not affect Tsubame-Gaeshi?
Midare seems to be doing either the same or more damage than Kaeshi with Kaiten <_<....
With crits it's like a 10k+ difference, it's really weird...

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Tool tips actually say you cannot use Kaiten with T-G. It will only work on Iajutsu if you're using a Sen related move.

Dancer is roughly a 10% dps increase for the partner. Nobody is doing 12k without being a dance partner.