Will they ever bring crowd control back?

Man I just was recently reminded of when CC was a thing, you could sleep mobs etc etc. You guys think that will ever make a comeback? I would love some more CC control elements.

CC will never be a feature while encounters are designed with pushing DPS as hard as possible within certain time limits, as well as bosses typically being immune to all CC/or gaining resistance after so many uses.

Oh man, when I played WHM I would always sleep extra mobs in "particularly difficult dungeons" like Aurum Vale back in ARR. Granted, it often failed when DPS attacked anyway despite my "DO NOT TOUCH THESE YOU NINNY" macro icons These days I'm not sure how feasible that is because the AoE DPS is insane. People don't really fight monsters one-by-one in higher content. But I did like being able to help with crowd control as a healer.

I doubt it.

They'd have to make mobs have massive party damage for it to actually matter, which would lead to people getting mad at those who don't use it. I don't agree that they shouldn't exist for that reason, but usually CC and interrupt mechanics are taken out because a lot of people don't bother to put stuff on their hotbars if it doesn't heal or do damage which in-turn causes arguments and frustration when those things become required.

MMOs now-days tend to only incorporate that stuff on the highest difficulty settings if at all and if those mechanics are seen in easier content you can usually just outright ignore them.

There's also the go-go-go speed running culture that would clash with, and since speed running and race against the clock is the new cool way to do difficulty, I doubt we'll ever see CC heavy content again. In any game, not just FF.

Crowd control, in this? Most players can barely figure out how to do simple stuff like stack for doritos, read their friggen skill tool tips, or use enmity reduction tools. You want CC back in THIS!? Hahahahahah....

Oh wait, you serious, let me laugh even harder.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA...

Ah...you funny.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Man I just was recently reminded of when CC was a thing, you could sleep mobs etc etc. You guys think that will ever make a comeback? I would love some more CC control elements.

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I remember the good ole days in Everquest where an enchanter in your party was vital just for crowd control. It was fun mesmerizing the hordes of mobs so your party could pick off each mob one at a time. I also remember once in a while some caster would cast a area wide aoe and wake them up too. Wiping just to start over clearing a dungeon again. haha. Those were the days!

Holy is all the crowd control you need/want. But if you're on PLD and don't have a WHM and you're scared, feel free to start shield bashing /shrug

I would love it, but it'd likely have to be an element of savage raids or extreme primals. As has been said, people are gonna whine if they're expected to CC stuff in casual content.

I think they will create something else to fill this gap.
Im very exited about new expansion. I know many here in forum complain about everything new but im sure many will have fun, learn new things are good, besides every mmo they make changes, and im sure developers never change something to get worst.
they removing some spells to create new better ones.

RDM's Tether actually did save my life two times these last days in dungeons. Bind all these mobs when taking the aggro back after the tank died, and run far away to get out of harm's way !

It did save my life in eureka several times too. Did all of your group except you died ? No matter, bind all these mobs, run out of range enough to desaggro them, and then come back to VerRaise and save everyone instead of wiping and everyone begging for a rez in shout chat !

Even though it is not as old as "the good old days in Everquest" it was kind of fun too. Soon, thanks to the "tether is useless delete it from the game pls" people, i guess that all will be left is to blame the healer and the tank for the wipes.

don't seem like yall played 1.0 or 2.0, it was the only way to make it through a dungeon. Especially Haukke Manor pulled more then one maid and guaranteed wipe. Over the years the toughness of the dudgeons have gone from chuck norris to barney.

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Originally Posted by NekoGato

don't seem like yall played 1.0 or 2.0, it was the only way to make it through a dungeon. Especially Haukke Manor pulled more then one maid and guaranteed wipe. Over the years the toughness of the dudgeons have gone from chuck norris to barney.

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Pretty much this. When CC isn't needed, it falls out of disuse. When its needed it becomes commonplace.

When I played Everquest it was quite common due to adds being very deadly. Early WoW (2004-2008) had CC as well. FFXIV 2.0 from what I saw required sleep and slows to be used in some cases. Players can be pretty derpy went it comes to PUGs, but they will adapt and be capable of the bare basics needed to progress. If CC is required in the form of sleep, stop, or bind, they will use it. They will adapt.

I'd love a modern MMO that had a real CC class like my EverQuest enchanter. Sadly most only have a token if they have any at all. I did enjoy way back in ARR how it was commonplace to sleep or repose the big dragon on the second boss fight in Brayflox so the party could focus down the little one. And some mobs in Haukke as well. There was no mass pulling because that was suicide when we were all at that low ilevel. I still keep Repose on my hot bar in case of some random usage.

I also still have my repose on my hotbar as well, I used it every now and then while doing some quests on my way to 70 where some mobs actually hit decently hard on me, but outside of that, I havn't used it in dungeons ever since 50 was the level cap, I even made a macro for my repose where it would put a bind marker on the mob, say a few words, and then sleep it, I've always thought having plenty of CC in the game (providing there's also ways to resist against it properly as a player) makes it a lot more entertaining, instead of everything just dealing damage.

During my experience leveling BLM, I have given up on using CC. There is simply no point to it when other players will attack the CC'd mob anyway

Still remember sleeping the boss in brayflox longstop, which help relief the stress of heal and tank, those days are gone.
The ridiculous AOE dmg we could dash out, the way too generous il sync turning everything non Savage faceroll

I don't think I played this game with a CC; I do recall having a tank putting A / B / C or other icons like 1 / 2 / 3 telling us what mob to kill first; but again he just took the hits. However, this makes me very reminiscent of FFXI during a Dynamis Event in Windurst, and on my little black mage, we would Sleepga I >> Sleepga II all the mobs, making sure we took the boss down before getting wiped by trash... even though the trash in FFXI was literally an impossible to gauge mob nonetheless lol.

But it would be neat to add a DNG or Raid like that where SE gives certain classes CC abilities, maybe a "Sleeping Shot" to Bard, give BLM "Sleepga" just for a DNG to keep enemies asleep. Even if its something simple like having to fight three bosses and the goal is to keep them asleep, while we take a boss down at a time.

CC hasn't been a thing for bosses since A3S barring stun and even that bosses are immune due to what happens to ifrit hm, this is their problem if they are useful are they mandatory? looking at Shadowbringers they could make them mandatory due to tank's access to them but would ranged jobs be better using them questions start to crop up

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

CC hasn't been a thing for bosses since A3S barring stun and even that bosses are immune due to what happens to ifrit hm, this is their problem if they are useful are they mandatory? looking at Shadowbringers they could make them mandatory due to tank's access to them but would ranged jobs be better using them questions start to crop up

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I recently was running some older content and stunned a boss when it was doing an aoe, the DPS was suprised, they said they never seen a tank stun a boss before.

I laughed, I then cried. I still use stun every single pull, and sometimes I catch myself just attempting to stun out of reflex.

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Originally Posted by OrangeCrystarium

CC will never be a feature while encounters are designed with pushing DPS as hard as possible within certain time limits, as well as bosses typically being immune to all CC/or gaining resistance after so many uses.

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A3s and A6s were both hard dps checks and still had crowd control. I don't see the connection, high raid dps requirement doesn't mean that you can't have mechanics were you need to slow/stun/bind/sleep stuff.

Nope.

Modern games have no idea how to design around it, work it into kits, or have combat be anything but FACESMASHMASHBUTTONS with near-instant out of combat regen afterwards.

The changes to AE's and removal of a significant chunk of resource management is telling that 14 is going in that direction.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

I recently was running some older content and stunned a boss when it was doing an aoe, the DPS was suprised, they said they never seen a tank stun a boss before.

I laughed, I then cried. I still use stun every single pull, and sometimes I catch myself just attempting to stun out of reflex.

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The Devs could make them useful again most likely raid settings since every CC in ShB seems to be between tank/healers with Dps having a mixture so they have the opportunity to make them relevant whether they will or not who knows.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

A3s and A6s were both hard dps checks and still had crowd control. I don't see the connection, high raid dps requirement doesn't mean that you can't have mechanics were you need to slow/stun/bind/sleep stuff.

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Oh yea i forgot you had to silence a robot in A6S my memory is fuzzy now XD

Crowd control CAN have a little bit of use in Eureka, if you can communicate to your teammates to abide by it.

Also of a small note, I will say that chain stunning mobs in Eureka has saved my butt as a tank loads of times as the mobs there hit like trucks, though this probably isn't what most people mean by crowd control.

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Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

Crowd control CAN have a little bit of use in Eureka, if you can communicate to your teammates to abide by it.

Also of a small note, I will say that chain stunning mobs in Eureka has saved my butt as a tank loads of times as the mobs there hit like trucks, though this probably isn't what most people mean by crowd control.

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Thats just efficient tanking.

Crowd control is stuff like Mez, sheep, sleep, sap, fear, ect. Stuff that makes parts of pulls just derdle about until you want to engage them). MMO's now just assume you're going to ae things down and not worry about it. It used to be a pretty big thing when trash was a challenge, and you had to have set orders to burn things down and oh god dont let that mage come unmez'd until everything else is dead or its going to suck really bad.

Crowd Control was important in FFXI too. Tanks could not withstand being hit by more than 1 or 2 things at a time, so you had to sleep/bind the others and pick them off. In XIV, tanks are so hardy and have so many cooldowns and self heals that they can (and do) tank all the things. In XI, tanks would be hit for 15-20% of their HP every auto attack, good luck tanking a crowd.

I don't think players as a group are patient enough for that kind of planning anymore - the plan is to pull as many mobs as they physically can before hitting a locked door.

Any mob that's difficult enough to actually require CC would cause undue stress on the healer specifically and no one else.
They might be able to find a place for CC in solo content and challenges though.

I just content myself with kicking and sweeping mobs as melee for interrupts, but that mostly only works in older content it seems.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

In XI, tanks would be hit for 15-20% of their HP every auto attack, good luck tanking a crowd.

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FFXI was intense. I loved how BRD was set up, and when I healed I'd count NIN shadows so I could Flash while they recast. I don't think many people would have the patience for one-mob pulls these days though.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Man I just was recently reminded of when CC was a thing, you could sleep mobs etc etc. You guys think that will ever make a comeback? I would love some more CC control elements.

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enter Eureka and CC to your hearts content.

The biggest issue is coordinating CC actions with your party. It's not so bad in niche situations where you need to Silence or Stun a certain enemy (i.e. some savage content) because usually players know how to handle these kinds of mechs, but in causal content it can be kinda difficult. You cast Sleep or Bind on a group of enemies to help kill them, nope one of your teammates wants to hit them thus removing the effect. CC can be fun but it's just not fit for purpose in casual content, tends to suit PvP environments more.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

The biggest issue is coordinating CC actions with your party. It's not so bad in niche situations where you need to Silence or Stun a certain enemy (i.e. some savage content) because usually players know how to handle these kinds of mechs, but in causal content it can be kinda difficult. You cast Sleep or Bind on a group of enemies to help kill them, nope one of your teammates wants to hit them thus removing the effect. CC can be fun but it's just not fit for purpose in casual content, tends to suit PvP environments more.

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I've observed this to be false.

If noobs on an EQ progression server can play a chanter properly. Applying CC in FFXIV would be easy.

We don't need to CC here. In fact tanks can not only survive every mob hitting them from a pulled group, but 2-3 or more groups. Because of that, CC has no function here. But if the mobs hit harder or had effects that could cause issues, then CC would be used more commonly.

I get it. Our experiences in PUGs make it seem like people are dumb. They're not. they're complacent. That's why they make mistakes. They do the minimum to complete the content. If the minimum has them doing CC, they WILL do it. They will still get through stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

snip.

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Well this isn't EQ so what they do there (or any other game) cannot always be adapted over so easily. It's common to say something is "easy" to apply, but then if it was it would have been done already, and that goes for many things in FFXIV, (which some people often seem to claim is easy to do but this isn't a thread for making comparisons).

Basically CC offers close to nothing other than a small degree of mastery over enemy positioning (in certain situations), that's it. If something can be handled with damage as opposed to control effects, players are going to go for the former because that's what reigns supreme in this game, damage. Even now the bare minimal CC is done only if a mech requires or otherwise if it can be skipped, players will do that.

I don't see the point of CC, it just slows dungeons down for zero gain, dungeon trash is already boring but to have to CC means you will need to single pack pull. CC is not hard and all it takes is a marker to stop people from hitting the CCed mob, people complain about players waking mobs up is because the mobs are not marked because no one expects or needs a CC. Also not every class has a CC so it'll cause certain classes to be favored over others.

I think interrupts is a much more active way to increase difficulty and interactivity, something like Seiryu's Ad phase where you need to coordinate the interrupts.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Well this isn't EQ so what they do there (or any other game) cannot always be adapted over so easily. It's common to say something is "easy" to apply, but then if it was it would have been done already, and that goes for many things in FFXIV, (which some people often seem to claim is easy to do but this isn't a thread for making comparisons).

Basically CC offers close to nothing other than a small degree of mastery over enemy positioning (in certain situations), that's it. If something can be handled with damage as opposed to control effects, players are going to go for the former because that's what reigns supreme in this game, damage. Even now the bare minimal CC is done only if a mech requires or otherwise if it can be skipped, players will do that.

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I've observed it in THIS game. We used to sleep adds. In dungeons like Dzaemel Darkhold, Haukke Manor, and Brayflox's. Leveling dungeons, in the duty finder, with PUGs. Back when our gear wasn't so great on average and potency of abilities were a bit lower.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I've observed this to be false.

If noobs on an EQ progression server can play a chanter properly. Applying CC in FFXIV would be easy.

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To be fair, part of that is because the consequences for NOT playing an enchanter properly are pretty severe. And non-enchanter group members also very quickly find out why it's a bad idea to break a mez. We used to Sleep/Repose in earlier ARR because we didn't have the ilevel to cheese those mechanics. Just like you did NOT hit a mezzed mob in EQ, you did NOT wake up the big dragon in Brayflox. Because the consequences for doing so when that tactic was popular were severe enough to serve as a deterrent.

So CC wouldn't be quite as easy to implement, since you need that consequence to make it a required function.

I once accidently pulled two additional mobs by backflipping (Displacement) into their range in Aurum Vale as my camera was mis-aligned and I didn't notice my Lalafell's back was actually facing 45° off-center. As the healer was struggling with the current speedrun pull I did not want to get those two foes into the crowd and figured that 20 seconds are enough as most of our enemies were almost dead.

So I cast https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m.../6b/Tether.png

which is on my hotbare since ever; voilá, they are out of comission until we are done. I thought..

For some reason, my tank is attacking them - they were just sitting 30 yalms away with the visible ring and static sparks - to mobilize them again, the mobs join the frey that is already massively in their favour and then the tank dies just a couple of seconds later. I cast Tether again to keep the foes off my allies and myself but now the length is only 10 seconds as they've been rooted by me before and so the funny running "back to the tank that just has respawned" sequence begun.. Sometimes I need the "Benny Hill Theme" on my hotbar for these situations...

So I am not sure if the design of the game or their players fail when it comes to that, but I'd like to see more CC in general. If my fellow players would not attack anything they see without checking ressources and/or general poor decision making..

Sincerely,
https://imgur.com/kXOfaq9.png

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Man I just was recently reminded of when CC was a thing, you could sleep mobs etc etc. You guys think that will ever make a comeback? I would love some more CC control elements.

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Do I think it will? No. Not at all.

Do I wish it would, especially if it comes with the surrounding repolish to make it and similar functions of play hugely compelling? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Well this isn't EQ so what they do there (or any other game) cannot always be adapted over so easily. It's common to say something is "easy" to apply, but then if it was it would have been done already, and that goes for many things in FFXIV, (which some people often seem to claim is easy to do but this isn't a thread for making comparisons).

Basically CC offers close to nothing other than a small degree of mastery over enemy positioning (in certain situations), that's it. If something can be handled with damage as opposed to control effects, players are going to go for the former because that's what reigns supreme in this game, damage. Even now the bare minimal CC is done only if a mech requires or otherwise if it can be skipped, players will do that.

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Damage works both ways. When the enemies' damage is so high that the healer can only ever afford to stream out nuke heals and may eventually exhaust their MP or that the tank can never afford not to turtle when CC isn't used, CC then becomes a competitive or even optimal damage option.

There is no fundamental issue with the concept of CC -- only tuning issues in the content into which it would be obligatory, applicable, wasteful, or anywhere in between.

I'm just saying, not that it matters, but specially now that I've ran Castrum and Prae an ungodly amount of times, it feels (felt) good to cast Sleep and Tether* on the bazillion adds and save some trouble.


*RIP Tether, you weren't as bad as people wanted to make you believe

Sleeping adds never worked, there was always someone that hit the adds even with a red X don't hit marker.
People don't even follow markers in 70 alliance so ...

CC will likely never come back to MMO's.

People complain when they can't just mash their face over the keyboard and zerg through a game.

Should it come back?

If implemented well, yes. Since it adds an increased level of depth, thought and tactics to otherwise monotonous trash that don't do anything special because they all need to be mindless zerg friendly...

This would go beyond "Just Sleep mob X and then don't hit it" since that isn't really adding much other than frustration when Zergy McZergface comes and spams his AoE's and clips the sleeping dude and wakes them up. (Or if you follow Ye Olde WoWe style, Sheep one mob, Freezing Trap another, Hex a third, Repentence a fourth, Shackle/Banish/Hibernate/Bind a race specific fifth. With potential for ghetto hard CC from like Entangling Roots on a melee dude for a 6th CC. Also with the really old school Mind Control usage to not only lock down a dangerous target but also then use them for evil to help deal with the trash pack (Such as MCing a healer mob to push out insano healing, or MCing a mage dude who'll blow up the other trash better than actual Mage players))

But stuff like silencing healers to prevent them from healing/buffing their allies. Pacifying dangerous ability based enemies. Using Stuns effectively to mitigate damage. All alongside standard interrupts as well as various forms of soft CC to mitigate damage (Such as Slow, Blind, Knockbacks > Binds *Cough*Fluid Aura*Cough* or Heavy).

It's just... This would require for them to make trash actually dangerous and interesting. As well as add enough tools to jobs to allow them to actually accomplish this.

Also, likely would also require for trash to live longer so that there's actually merit to CCing rather than tossing a handful of Flares into a pack and having them all fall over.

With the final point being, to also make these things relevant for in boss fights too, so that you don't have a ton of vestigial skills that are only relevant for trash packs (Given that we seem to be limited to like 2-3 AoE skills, this seems like an actual concern for devs. Instead of you know... Making more encounters with AoE requirements to help justify more interesting AoE rotations)

Was this game ever designed with CC in mind?
Genuine question.