This was quite recent when I was just talking with people in the Balance Discord today, and I didn't even begin to think about how they're changing things until now.
It might be old news, but I think I have an idea of what they actually have in mind for changing the Healing Paradigm that apparently is mostly DPS(which is what optimized players should still be doing. Not saying DPSing is a bad thing, but it's something most people should do so they aren't standing there doing nothing unless long-term plans require more MP at a certain point).
WHM
As much as people have been saying that Afflatus Heals are just pretty bad and "more of the same"(which it is) I've had someone remind me of how WHM got kicked out of prog early on into Stormblood after Deltascape because of the constant AST buffs SE was giving them. What I realized was that WHM is now back in Prog in regards to how it was used back then. I think this is a good thing and doesn't make WHM so undesirable in groups since you have something to fall back on in case shit hits the fan considering they literally have the best MP economy with Thin Air right now, and Lucid being the CD for every healer to recover MP at a set rate.
The Afflatus Skillset, however, when used in place of your MP-based heals, gives you mileage towards Afflatus Misery and helps mitigate the DPS loss that you're getting from using a heal on GCD, and being Instant makes WHM able to weave freely Assize so there shouldn't be too many clipping problems now.
AST
AST...has gone through a lot of changes. Plenty of people on the forums already hate that they're taking away the complexity of the cards, as well as Spread and Royal Road that were used for planning ahead in fights. Considering that they were reduced to Melee or Ranged Buffs, people wanted their diversity back; but let us remember before why balance was literally thrown out the window: AST's constant buffing, and SCH never being knocked down off its high horse as king of raid healing.
With the Shadowbringers iteration, AST has a new skillset that requires them to draw 3 different Seals for their new skill, Divination, which is a 5% Raid-wide Damage buff if you draw all three seals. How they obtain seals is by playing the correct card that corresponds to that seal. Given that it is a 1/3rd chance of obtaining any type of seal per draw, that's why you have Sleeve Draw to make a sort of "burst" in your buffing. However, since you're trying to obtain a new seal each time and don't want to mess up your seal combo, you have Minor Arcana to eat up your cards if it's the wrong type of Seal. This creates a mini-game of drawing cards every 30s(with a burst every 3m) to attempt to get all three different seals for Divination.
Another fun thing is that Redraw is getting 3 Charges. This means that If you're trying to get the right seal, you can simply use it as a mulligan to find the card you need for Divination. While this does seem boring, this keeps AST busy as much as it does now, especially when it's also using Horoscope to enhance its healing potential in case things get hairy. Since its Healing isn't polarizing WHM through Sects anymore, it makes healers feel a bit more balanced in regards to how they all play around each other.
SCH
Now, for the best class of just about every expansion for last: Scholar. I had to take a long look at Scholar's kit to understand what the developers were going for, especially in regards to how they were to approach the problem that SCH caused for both AST/WHM; The Fairy, as well as SCH's Critlo Spread Combo which was heavily used ever since inception of Deployment Tactics.
How they did this was changing how Shields worked. Adlo now has a buff on a Crit called Catalyze, which adds Shield equal to 100% of the HP Restored. The fix to the Spread Combo was to reduce SCH's contribution to the raid by preventing raid-wide damage(which it can still do, but not as stupidly strong as they are currently, being able to stop a Savage Delta Attack in O11S with no use of LB Gauge). This still incentivizes Deployment Tactics' main use, which is to put it on a Tank that has Convalescence/Nature's Minne on them, and then spread it to the party; but now it isn't basically a 200% Crit Shield based on the healing done for the entire raid, but 225% for the target since Catalyze is not able to be spread across the entire raid.
As for the Fairy, a few adjustments had to be done so that pet jobs weren't so difficult to play for the newer players, but not so infuriating when you try to queue something and they just...cast whatever they're doing, and then do what you ask them to. The fixes to the summons and their casts being Instant helped alleviate A LOT of issues that the Pet System had in its previous iterations, however not a lot of people are happy to see Selene basically be a "skin" for Eos.
In my opinion, I want to think that the developers were having a difficult time creating unique decisions between Eos and Selene, given the fact that Selene's kit wasn't even close to competitive with Eos while also not overpowering the Fairy to where it was in Heavensward; this way, people can have both Eos and Selene which are tied into SCH's storyline and open up their options in both adjusting SCH's contributions and the Fairy's contributions.
Now from what I've read on the forums in regards to SCH's Aetherflow, people have been wanting a DPS ability that would allow them to dump excess Aetherflow. I used to be one of the people who wanted Energy Drain back(without MP Recovery) so that SCH could do its job again, but I then thought: "What if you're supposed to use those with Ruin II, which is 200 potency in Shadowbringers?" That opened up a whole new world of possibilities, and considering the 60s CD and how just about every confident tank under the sun has the "pull everything" mentality, SCH will probably use up those Aetherflows rather quick on Excog, Lustrate, Indomitability, or Sacred Soil(which has a Regen Effect to be competitive vs. Asylum). This also translates into how they will gain their gauge, and in turn allow them to use Fey Union for whatever duration they want; but in general I don't think that SCH needs Energy Drain back as much as people THINK they should have it back because of MP issues that people have foreseen because of DPS constraints.
While on the topic of DPS, Art of War has also been a topic of discussion, and how there's a demand for its MP Cost to go down due to it being 800/10,000 MP for an AoE spell. Generally I think it comes in line with the likes of Holy, but a lot of what SCH did before was abuse Miasma II for oGCDs instead of Ruin II. With the removal of Miasma II, SCH will still be able to weave for a decent potency once they learn Ruin II while also not having to worry about DoTs being their main damage next to Broil. Art of War is there to replace the damage that Miasma II would have done, but make it instant. It balances out with the rest of the kit since Aetherflow can be used for just about anything in 60s(and generally can be used to replace Physicks you'd otherwise be casting or Fey Blessing) and in regards to the overlying MP Issue that people exacerbate, that's why they made Aetherflow more focused on healing aspects in the first place and the trait Quickened Aetherflow synergizes with that rather well, potentially allowing you to have more resources earlier than you'd think once you've used up those stacks.
As for how the Fairy will act, we'll have to see how it works out when Early Access begins since we don't have control over her anymore. It's at least simplified better so that pets aren't a pain in the butt and die to Kefka's Hyperdrive(RIP Fairy) or don't listen.
End Word
For those who read this far, I'm willing to take criticism...which I feel may be overwhelmingly negative considering the nature of the Healer Forum right now, but I'm looking to be constructive. Even if Shadowbringers is 9 days away, just the thought provoking idea in the design is great and completely changes everything about how the game is played at an optimal level compared to how we currently play it now(which is DPS everything, try to always use Stacks on Energy Drain if not needed for anything else, Spread Balance, etc.). I can't wait to see how things unravel when we get the patch notes for Shadowbringers.
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06-20-2019, 08:09 AMHyperiusUltimaI just had an enlightenment regarding Healers in Shadowbringers
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06-20-2019, 08:47 AMDeceptusIn this regard the developers took absolutely, 100% the laziest way out they could.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
Instead of balancing the two fairies and giving them more of an identity (Selene the buff or debuff fairy?) They just made her a reskin of Eos.
That would be like telling Summoners, "Well, Titan is useless now so it's going to be a reskin of Ifrit. You get a melee pet and a ranged pet in Garuda. Hope you like it!" -
06-20-2019, 08:52 AMHyperiusUltimaWell, when you're attempting to design unique decisions, it kinda comes down to not preference, but which is better overall in an optimized setting. Sure, people have run Selene and succeeded before, but they've locked their progression with the Fairy because of the Healer Balance that kept getting worse as SCH kept getting powercrept into supremacy. Even if they had to make it a skin, as I said before they now allow them breathing room to expand on the Fairy in later expansions, should they wish to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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06-20-2019, 08:57 AMSebazyThe thing is, these changes alone do nothing to suggest that anything is changing here. Rather that the act of DPSing is just being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, namely AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
As for the changes individually:
Regarding WHM, it's strength in Deltascape was the combination of Thin Air being incredible and SCH being in the worst state any healer's been this side of AST. It was a perfectly solid progression option in Sigmascape as well. Alphascape kind of turned the tables with the encounters suiting AST and it's recent buff spree rather nicely.
I've said it before, but IMHO the WHM changes are mostly pretty solid. The problem is that they once again play into the feeling that the WHM job is forever an expansion behind, a sentiment reinforced by the fact the headline additions to our 5.0 kit is simply fixes for our 4.0 additions. Great work SE..... =/
On AST, this is the job I'm actually quietly concerned for the most. It's base kit is fine. I don't like most of the card changes but I guess I understand why they did it (And the new sleeve draw is a monumental improvement). However the E3 tooltips for many of their oGCDs were alarmingly bad and most critically, the skill ceiling and rewards for advanced play took a hammering with the loss of Time Dilation and Collective Opposition. Anyone who proudly proclaims that AST was purely about fishing for balance can frankly go spin on my globe. An AST playing at the top level would be trying to align as much stuff as possible with their CO. Extending an AoE balance, Cleric Stance, a Regen and ideally even CU was the gold standard to aim for and it could be very tricky to pull off if you weren't in a group that was running like clockwork. That entire facet of the class has been wiped out with this change and it'll only be worse off for it.
For SCH, again, the skill ceiling was the biggest loss here. But it's also worth noting that the job simply won't flow with the same pace that it did before. The loss of oGCDs coupled with the loss of APM from fairy micro management is another step back.
On a positive note, it's interesting to see a few healing up abilities seemingly reverting back to boosting non spell based heals though. I can see WHM/SCH/MNK being a nigh obligatory combination to counter the loss of VIT melds for early progression if the tooltips shown so far are to be believed.
Again, whilst I agree with your sentiment that the changes certainly aren't all bad. I'm still curious as to how you feel that these things change the whole DPS is everything angle of high end play. WHM's additions basically give them back some of the DPS they would have lost when forced to move. AST's changes literally change their previously somewhat flexible card system into something that is literally only DPS additions. It's only really SCH that's taken a hit in this department by way of the loss of their DPS oGCDs and the removal of any incentive to play hot potato with Aetherflow charges.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
And completely agreed with Deceptus's opening comment.
My biggest take away from 5.0's grand healer rebalancing is that it just feels lazy, rushed and half-baked. Note, I'll be the first to acknowledge that SE's job design team is anything but lazy IMHO, they are just massively overworked/understaffed. -
06-20-2019, 09:35 AMIlenyaQuote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
Oh boy do I hope this is the case, because if it's anything like previous, I would literally use *maybe* two Aetherflow on healing in large pulls before (Excog, and if needed, Lustrate. If not, ED), the Third usually on Bane. I really doubt there will be a whole lot different this expansion that'll change that.
Frankly, however, we do need something to use an aetherflow stack on the occasions we don't need to heal and Aetherflow is back up. I thought something simple, like a skill that just gives 20 gauge for an Aetherflow stack, or maybe just a trait on the skill that says "If any Aetherflow stacks remain when this skill is used, gain X Fey Gauge." Just something for those moments when you don't need all 3 stacks in a minute, but don't want to be wasting potential. -
06-20-2019, 09:59 AMHyperiusUltimaOne thing I've always considered to be good about complexity is that it creates engagement and focus; but AST had the balance issue of having too much to handle and use while having a 1.5s cast time, which was unheard of til' they got it in Stormblood just so that the flow of the job can do better. You know what that did? Kicked WHM out of a majority of high-end raid groups, and causing the peer pressure of "We need you to play AST because it's better than WHM", which basing on fact is fine, but festering that kind of environment isn't healthy for the community as a whole, especially to those that are actually just getting into doing Extreme Trials or Savage Raids. Even though meeting DPS Checks is the goal post, forcing someone to change to something they are foreign to doesn't help. With the reduction to AST's utilities(Damage Increase, MP Recovery, TP Recovery, Crit Rate, Damage Reduction, Haste from Stormblood) it puts them in a place where they aren't a necessity since all they do now is raise overall damage with cards and also have decent healing despite people not liking how some of them are looking to be used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
That's really all WHM was: A Progression option which honestly is the best it could be given both SCH/AST are more complex than WHM is by a certain degree of gameplay, along with the MP Management that comes with it if you're going hard for parse. Also, Alphascape was around when AST got its 1.5s Malefic Buff for fluency, which as a design decision should've been spread to WHM, who didn't have one at the time. Having the capability to have a .5s of GCD to use an oGCD was a significant advantage that could not be overlooked when people were looking for a healer and solidified it in the meta(again).Quote:
Regarding WHM, it's strength in Deltascape was the combination of Thin Air being incredible and SCH being in the worst state any healer's been this side of AST. It was a perfectly solid progression option in Sigmascape as well. Alphascape kind of turned the tables with the encounters suiting AST and it's recent buff spree rather nicely.
As much as it sounds, I can understand the issues that WHM currently has; however, do remember that AST had to keep getting constant buffs in Heavensward: Why? Because they were too weak for the Savage content to even be considered viable. In Midas they got some screen time, but by Creator they were dominant. The same pattern has followed us in Stormblood as well, and the powercreep from Earthly Star also makes it substantially stronger than Assize in regards to freeing up healing for DPS due to its ludicrous potency with Giant Dominance and its base healing kit being NEARLY IDENTICAL to WHM outside of a few gimmicks. The same happened with SCH here in Stormblood too when they first hit the job with the nerf hammer, given it was dominant for all of Heavensward because of Shields; that's changed so that Critlo Spread isn't the strongest option anymore. They got better healing AND better tools in the form of Chain Strat, which solidified it as the best healer in the game next to having the fairy. The same result, different scenario happened because of powercreep alone; oh, and let's not forget them not touching WHM all expansion until 4.5 despite the outcry and massive amounts of feedback regarding Lilies and their extreme redundancy.Quote:
The problem is that they once again play into the feeling that the WHM job is forever an expansion behind, a sentiment reinforced by the fact the headline additions to our 5.0 kit is simply fixes for our 4.0 additions.
Time Dilation extension of Regens was definitely a factor because they were mainly used on the tank to extend damage time outside of oGCD healing with ED or other sources; Regen couldn't even match up to that from WHM to make a fair comparison, but using Time Dilation to also extend buffs was a major factor in their giant rDPS that was shown on FFLogs that eventually led to them overpowering WHM as the stats kept increasing over patches. Same goes for abusing CO, which was insanely good to have given it's just a 10s extension of every buff under the sun.Quote:
However the E3 tooltips for many of their oGCDs were alarmingly bad and most critically, the skill ceiling and rewards for advanced play took a hammering with the loss of Time Dilation and Collective Opposition. Anyone who proudly proclaims that AST was purely about fishing for balance can frankly go spin on my globe. An AST playing at the top level would be trying to align as much stuff as possible with their CO. Extending an AoE balance, Cleric Stance, a Regen and ideally even CU was the gold standard to aim for and it could be very tricky to pull off if you weren't in a group that was running like clockwork. That entire facet of the class has been wiped out with this change and it'll only be worse off for it.
The Fairy was already problematic for newer players to begin with because the pet system had quirks to it that were counter-intuitive. You can ask the SMNs regarding how their egi won't respond when they want Contagion... It made more sense just to give SCH the buttons to press rather than have it in a 'pet queue' system that relied on you either macroing the hell out of it or have your fairy cast X Skill too late and have your party die. As for the skill ceiling, it got reduced some, but it's still there because it's now about how you manage your MP overall between DPS and Healing. SCH has the advantage of Aetherflow, but they still have to make decisions on WHAT they're going to use those stacks on.Quote:
For SCH, again, the skill ceiling was the biggest loss here. But it's also worth noting that the job simply won't flow with the same pace that it did before. The loss of oGCDs coupled with the loss of APM from fairy micro management is another step back.
I acknowledge the same with their design team, but it's already been shown on the forums just how ridiculously they're in need of new blood to help open some doors when it comes to job balance. There's even a thread for it I believe you or someone started.Quote:
I'm still curious as to how you feel that these things change the whole DPS is everything angle of high end play. WHM's additions basically give them back some of the DPS they would have lost when forced to move. AST's changes literally change their previously somewhat flexible card system into something that is literally only DPS additions. It's only really SCH that's taken a hit in this department by way of the loss of their DPS oGCDs and the removal of any incentive to play hot potato with Aetherflow charges.
And completely agreed with Deceptus's opening comment.
My biggest take away from 5.0's grand healer rebalancing is that it just feels lazy, rushed and half-baked. Note, I'll be the first to acknowledge that SE's job design team is anything but lazy IMHO, they are just massively overworked/understaffed.
As for how I feel about the DPS on the high-end for Healers? I think I can understand why Yoshida agreed to these changes. He wants to lower the large % of DPSing we're doing and increase the healing amount so that the healers feel like they get to heal something for once, compared to how we're just sitting here right now spamming the same spell over and over and using oGCDs every place we can to heal, along with the peer pressure that the imbalance presents on its own. It's a portion of why a lot of people also jumped ship from WHM to AST in a single patch. There are better solutions, but in general we need to see the in-game calculations done first before we even begin to open that can of worms so as to confirm whether healing has increased or is the same(I'm not entirely sure on Titania because that was using pre-sets at E3).
On an additional note, AST's card system wasn't necessarily flexible outside of knowing what your damage cards(Spear, Balance, Arrow) were and your resource/utility cards(Bole, Ewer, Spire) were, with the Spire being nigh useless unless you are in heavy AoE situations along with Ewer sometimes getting use for yourself, your co-healer, or your BRD(Foes). Bole was really, really situational given how Tanks can rotate CDs and it's really only just to help mitigate fluff damage. Even then, only 4 cards were actually useful for Royal Road: Spear, Arrow, Ewer, and Spire. AoE and Duration Extension were big plays to make, especially if considering applying Time Dilation or setting up a combo with CO for a huge raid potency increase, while 1.5x effects weren't very useful except in very niche situations where you'd need Ewer or Spire. -
06-21-2019, 12:24 AMIlenyaI am unsure if it was the case for Summoners, but at some point over the patch cycle SE made it so that telling the Faerie to use anything would make it instantly stop anything it was doing to use the ability. I never had to spam click to trigger the skills after that. We got our quality of life faerie change that you are saying was an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
Also, our aetherflow options are heal, AoE heal, delayed heal, and shield with regen. I don't really actually find that to be much of a variety. -
06-21-2019, 02:57 AMSublimeIbanezThe faerie skills were changed to abilities outside of embrace. I don't have to spam click them or interrupt their embrace cast by moving them or putting them on steady to force them to do what I want anymore, which is amazing. I mean there are a few select times where "maybe" I misclicked or "maybe" she just didn't want to whispering dawn, but yeah....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
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06-21-2019, 03:37 AMKaliseTo be honest... While SCH is copying SMN in getting a new Demi summon (Seraph), they could have also copied SMN in having summons being instant.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
In fact, instant cast summons makes way more sense for SCH than it does for SMN. Since SMN is 99.99% of the time Ifrit 24/7 with Garuda being used for Dungeons because AoE for mass pulls while lulTitan remains lulTitan.
Meanwhile, even with the current Fairies, SCH can actually get some use from swapping between them. Like, I've used Selene a bunch in Eureka because instant, AoE Esuna is quite useful. For example when fighting Dux in Pyros multiple people often get hit by Shock and get paralyzed. Or farming for things like Luigi/Penny and the trash apply that massive damage Poison to the tank.
All they had to do was alter Silent Dusk (Since CC is worthless...) and Fey Wind (Since they want to tone down rDPS boosts) for other niche utilities and then people could easily swap between the 2 forms during a fight to access different utility skills.
Since, trying to make them "Equally good" is not needed if you don't have to sit through a cast to swap. Especially when their actions are on 60/120s CD's so having them constantly at your side isn't necessary (Both have the same Embrace skill)
Just a matter of dividing up SCH's utility between the 2 Fairies and you're good to go.
Though, instead they just deleted a bunch of SCH's skills and copied Demi's from SMN (Would have been way more interesting to have just Lily and swap between Eos/Selene. Heck, you could have even had some other alterations, such as Selene shielding with Embrace/Fey Union while Eos healed like normal. Especially given that Seraph is literally just Lily but with more potency...) -
06-21-2019, 04:37 AMGrimGaleProblem is, what happens when you have Aetherflow comming out of CD and you still have Aetherflow stacks. Remember, using aetherflow stacks grants fairy gauge which will be necessary for Consolation, Fairy Veil and Fairy Tether. If SCH's game play revolves around building Fairy Gauge (FG) then not using all stacks on CD is basically playing suboptimally, since you are not bulding as much resource as you could be. Indomitability, Excogitation and Sacred Soil all have CDs so Lustrate is the only heal that you can *spend* on demand- Are we really going to overheal to get that FG up? Seems counter intuitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
While I don't advocate specifically for Energy Drain to be back, I'd love to have a skill to at least get some use of aetherflow stacks when no healing is needed. Doesn't need to be a Dps or even an MP restoring skill. It could simply be something that gives you extra FG- 20 instead of the normal 10.
Or if you want to focus on healing, how about this?
Fairy Charge- Charges your Fairy with your aether, granting it's next Pet Action/Embrace an increase of potency of X- Grants 20 Fairy gauge.
That'd make up for both the loss of ED and Rouse -
06-21-2019, 12:21 PMDiznypKC
Sebazy for Healer President. Sign the petition below.
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06-21-2019, 09:06 PMBrandedblade
Something I came to the realization of for scholar is that one of the intentions of the skill culling was to give our tools a clear and distinct purpose. Whereas certain skills in the old toolkit where...not so well designed. Miasma II, for example, was a skill intended to be our aoe filler, however, with its total potency being higher then Ruin II, it usurped Ruin II's functionality as your mobility and weaving tool in single target settings.
This was addressed in ShB with the potency buff on Ruin II to make it comparable to Miasma II's old potency (I'm fully aware that the 200 potency is not until level 72, however iirc dont all the ranks of Broil mastery increase Ruin II's potency by some amount) and Art of War was added, with it being stronger upfront then Miasma II was at the cost of being weaker overall then Miasma II, and by extension, weaker then Ruin II. This overall design change gives the two abilities a clear and distinct function.
While I understand that some people love the additional challenge of optimizing things like Miasma II, their ultimately seem to he wonky design elements that while streamlined, are ultimately more approachable and healthier for future design. -
06-22-2019, 03:01 AMForteNightshadeAstro was never a necessity. They just made things easier in a tier designed to the antithesis of White Mage's gameplay. The solution would have been to give White Mage some utility (Hi, Bravery/Cheer) in lieu of even more healing and destroying the complexity Scholar and Astro had. And therein lies the rub for a lot of people. While Scholar escaped only singed and with a stellar heal kit intact, Astro lost more than just their eyebrows. This took away options for people who enjoy the healer role but want something beyond the simplicity of your basic healer. Take the DPS for a moment. You have a variety of options ranging from the easier side of things (Red Mage, Samurai) all the way to the more complex (Ninja, Summoner). It gave people options based on what they fancied. Now all three healers look to be a different shade of vanilla. Ironically, it may not even solve the underlining problem. White Mage still lacks any utility. If Astro's now gimped cards pull enough ahead... we'll be right back where we started.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
It just seems a bit... odd. The issue here was clearly Balance yet instead of changing it to something else, they made every card a crappier version of now old Balance. And encouraged padding one player, because that has zero chance of creating a meta. Nope. Never.
If I were to guess, they lack inspiration. It does not help, they seem unwilling to yield from their vision of healers focusing on healing despite the game simply not encouraging that playstyle. Perhaps we'll be surprised come next week, but Yoshida already said Eden will follow the Creator difficulty. The last time we heard that, well, it spawned Alte Roite and Catastrophe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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06-22-2019, 02:24 PMLynesse
I think some of these changes are in response to common complaints healers have about tanks not cycling their CDs properly.
Tanks lose some CDs. Healers get more redundancy. The balance of power here shifts more towards healers, and it's harder for everyone to mess up overall, but it's totally understandable that healers don't feel rewarded after tanks were given so many new DPS toys. -
06-22-2019, 03:30 PMFtailWhat happened to Astro was terrible, but Scholar got completely butchered. SCH DPS was amazingly fun to play at least in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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06-22-2019, 08:15 PMBrandedbladeWhile the fun is a matter of personal opinion, outside of ED, most of our dps toolkit was just fluff and extra busywork. I understand the argument of "Complexity=fun" but...isnt it more efficient overall to have your dot be one stronger instead of two weaker dots, one of which has a really awkward duration that slows down the number of other casts you're doing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftail
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06-22-2019, 10:31 PMAurturiaAs much as anything else its the feeling of being told "No, you're playing wrong" and having our toys taken away. For me synching down to a pre bane level is just painful, applying my dot's one at a time like a commoner. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
But really though i liked the idea of being a combat oriented medic, poisons and contagions were my best weapons. The idea of being forced into a "pure healer" role is like telling me i have to be a certain kind of character, and i dont like that. -
06-23-2019, 01:08 AMDeceptusWould be understandable if so many mess ups didn't result in one shot deaths. But SE relies on those too much IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynesse
Problem its, it's not a potency increase. It's a potency lossQuote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
SB: Miasma (230 pot) and Bio II (350 Pot) = 580 pot
Low level: Miasma (300 pot) and Bio 1 (240) = 540 pot (screwed up the math earlier)
Shadowbringers: Bio = 240 pot (unchanged)
Shadowbringers: Bio 2 = 500 pot
So in low level content you're losing 230 potency on dots and in mid level content you're losing 80 potency on dots
Yes ruin 2 and broil are buffed, but how stupid is it in low level content that your instant cast spell does more than your filler?
From lvl 38 to 54 your best filler spell is what is supposed to be your mid mana, instant cast, movement spell. -
06-23-2019, 02:10 AMBrandedbladeMiasma: 20 potency on cast and 35 potency over 24 seconds:300 total potency (20+(30x8))Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Pre ShB Bio II: 35 potency damage over 30 seconds (total potency 350)
Total dot potency: 650
ShB Bio II: 50 potency damage over 30 seconds. (Total potency 500)
Difference: -150 potency
However: Miasma costs a gcd, with it gone, that is replaced with a cast of Broil II.
Broil II pre SHB: 230 potency
Broil II post Shb: 260
12 gcds in 30 seconds assuming 2.5 second gcd
Sb rotation: M, Bio, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, M, B, B
ShB rotation: B, Bio, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B
Miasma Total Potency
300+20+30=350
Broil II Total Potency:
Pre ShB: 230x9= 2070
Post SHB: 260x11= 2860
Bio II total potency:
Pre ShB: 350
Post SHB: 500
Pre ShB: 350+ 350+ 2070=2770
Post ShB: 2860+ 500= 3360
Assuming no clipping/ogcd use, ShB rotation is ahead by 590 due to not needing to cast Miasma.
Without clipping the gcd, the best chance to weave would be the bio II cast, so assuming we add an Energy Drain and a Shadow flare there...
2770 + 150 + 250= 3170
Alternatively you can use swiftcast to gain a weave space and an extra energy drain
3170 +150= 3320
Finally, replacing one of the Broil IIs with a Miasma II
3320-30=3290 +150 = 3440
3440- 3360 = 80
Unless you spend all your aetherflow on ED in this 30 second window, you are dealing more potency in that time frame with the SHB rotation. I admit their are other factors, such as using Dissapation. But I'm trying to assume an average 30 second scenario
To be honest, our potencies at lower levels are irrelevant to me considering that the healers are not the only ones who suffer from this issue. But the potency differences in a single target setting are nowhere near as severe as you think at current levels and beyond.
Considering the fact that Ruin II gains its potency with each rank of Broil Mastery at that level range Ruin II will also have 100 potency. And while on a pure potency basis AoW will be stronger, this is bad use of your MP and inefficient for single targets. -
06-23-2019, 03:01 AMDeceptusYeah, I screwed up the math on that initial Miasma II thought it was 6 ticks instead of 8 for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
However, all of this math and theorycrafting you did assumes you're playing at max rank and not synced down into any content which is what I addressed also. Late game will be fine, but pre- lvl 54 is going to suck. You seemed to conveniently ignore all of that topic.
Just like what happened in SB when they changed a bunch of skills and didn't re-do any of the lower content. MCH and DRK were clunky as all hell pre-70 and still are to this day. -
06-23-2019, 03:36 AMBrandedbladeAn extra 60 potency would not have proven my point wrong. You only out damage the shb rotation if you use your aetherflow. So the loss of potency is nowhere near as bad as you seem to think it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
And so? It's a given that while leveling you will not have your full toolkit therefore there will be some clunkyness. Its already dull and boring content to begin with regardless of how much damage your spells do or how many buttons you press. While your numbers are gonna be lower pre bio II, the extra potency on Bio II (an extra 25 potency per tick for 250 extra total potency) makes up for the difference. Not as much as you'd like but it's still extra damage. And the extra Ruin casts would still close the damage gap more. -
06-23-2019, 09:03 AMLynesseI agree! I'm glad someone else has said it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
This all plays into encounter design. SE has trouble challenging us by simply doing damage because we all abuse how scripted everything is. Rather than make everything more dynamic, they introduced a lot of one-shot mechanics. Keeping it scripted makes it easier to program, easier to balance, and more accessible overall since winning a fight is based more on memorization than a player's moment-to-moment decisions.
It makes it more accessible while also making it feel harder to the player because of things coming out of nowhere and-- "whoops, I died."
It's very manipulative game design.
Healers can be balanced better when they abandon this design model. -
06-23-2019, 09:26 AMguardinno, they made the healers darn near perfect. you just want something to black knight and cry about. you arent a dev dont act like one. play the class and the new content first and see how it flows. right now this tiny vocal niche community is out of hand about things beyond their limited knowledge and understandingQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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06-23-2019, 10:09 AMIlenyaWere you here for Stormblood's launch? Because this excuse is rather tired. We have tooltips, we have ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE for some people, but that's just not enough. Except we figured out issues for Stormblood with less information (Did we have something like the Titania fight back before Stormblood even?) and yet healers as a whole were absolutely right on numerous issues. Healers as a whole are not people guessing about things. We are capable of actually thinking about changes and making informed opinions based on what we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by guardin
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06-23-2019, 12:44 PMBrandedblade
Another interesting observation I've noticed is the fact that while healers had their aoe rotations nerfed, it also came alongside the fact that dps and tanks had their aoe rotations improved. While a certain someone here would cry "Double Standards" at this, it honestly makes sense to me that if healers are meant to be the role who's supposed do the least damage that they also wouldn't be the best at aoeing either.
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06-23-2019, 12:51 PMMintnHoney
Healers had AoE rotations?
j/k. I suppose that, at the very least, Scholar did.
But I don't agree with the removal of the actions being justified, due to trying to make them "not the best at aoeing." They were never the best. They were just better than those who totally lacked fundamental AOE capability. It's part of what would make Scholar unique, at least amongst the healers. -
06-23-2019, 12:58 PMIlenyaEh, you could argue ARR WHM was the best at AoE damage at the time. As it stands, my issue is less the changing of our AoEs and more the fact that they made SCH and WHM even less interesting than it was before, while giving every other job new AoE stuff, if I am remembering correctly. Maybe not SAM.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
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06-23-2019, 08:42 PMDeceptusHealers were never the best at aoe trash pulls. They were better than dps who refused to use their own aoe properly. Unless spamming 140 potency Holy and 100 potency Miasma 2 is somehow better than every other aoe the DPS has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
And yeah, I'll call a double standard out when I see it because you love to say what "should be". Tanks have traditionally been low damage just like healers are but the same rules don't apply to them. -
06-23-2019, 09:21 PMBrandedbladeDouble standard this double standard that, I get it you arent happy with the changes but unfortunately the developers have a specific idea in mind and its too soon for the feedback about it to be reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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06-23-2019, 10:18 PMKnoahlIgnore this Brandedblade guy, he has started spouting nonsense in an attempt to "argue" a baseless point, he is annoying to read, instead of acknowledging points he just ignores them and says "you are just complaining". Deceptus is not the one giving evidenceless points and has always made wonderful arguements toward why the new healers won't feel enjoyable this expansion, as someone else who has played years of healer on FF I relate strongly to her points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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06-24-2019, 01:09 AMBrandedbladeIgnore this Knoahl guy, all he does is cry about the game is regressive. And I've been giving my evidence and thoughts as well thank you very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoahl
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06-24-2019, 04:14 AMLokiIt's not like SE has never done some mistakes in the past...nooooo never ^^'Quote:
Originally Posted by guardin
I don't understand how some people can be so blind concerning those healers changes, everyone can have his opinion but it's like driving towards a wall and say "hmmm i haven't tested my airbag but i'm sure all those engineers know their work, i should survive :D "
Devs are humans you know.
https://i.gifer.com/origin/43/4381ce...8ce81_w200.gif
/ironic -
06-24-2019, 04:36 AMWaxSw"You're not a dev to act like one" True, he/she isnt but neither are you so stop telling people who have legit complains to STFU because you dont like anyone to criticize your beloved game. This is a forum and we are supossed to give feedback, your white knight attitude doesnt belong here specially when you call the majority of this forum "tiny vocal niche community" and say that them have "limited knowledge and understanding" when youre the only one who looks like doesnt understand anything, attitudes like that are the ones that destroy games so if you think that by doing what youre doing you're helping the game, grow up and think again.Quote:
Originally Posted by guardin