Why not make healers like Mercy from Overwatch?

I'll be up front that I don't play a healer as a main. I don't enjoy healing it stresses me out. Also. I loathe stance-dancing, so I never DPSed with cleric stance. I never took it. (I do DPS when I play a healer, because I get bored).

Anyways, so to the main question. Why is everyone so black and white about healers doing damage? Why can't Square-Enix give us a buff/support healer class that augments OTHER DPS to make up for the difference?

I constantly see post after post after post of people saying "I play a healer to help people," or "If I wanted to DPS--I'd play a DPS class."

So why in Hydean's name do we not have a healer class that literally buffs the DPS of other players? Something like Mercy from Overwatch. When she doesn't heal--she can increase the damage output of her party by X%.

Another thing while I'm rambling about this. Why can't they make healers more unique by exploring these options? I hated how all healers/tanks were 'stance based' when in Warcraft that's a 'single' classes' gimmick. It's not a role defining trait. What gives? Why so limited.

I bet all those people who "I just want to heal" would gladly channel some +damage buffs onto their players. Then everyone wins. Healers get to be support. DPS get to do more numbers, and things die just as fast. Why has no one considered this?

We did. It was in Heavensward and it was called Astrologian and it was awful. The only thing it could do was roll a d6 and hope for a Balance. If it got the Balance it was great, at all other times it was a subpar WHM.

"Because Dancer is buffer."

(Also, Mercy is one of the worst designed healers in any FPS game)

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Originally Posted by Callinon

We did. It was in Heavensward and it was called Astrologian and it was awful. The only thing it could do was roll a d6 and hope for a Balance. If it got the Balance it was great, at all other times it was a subpar WHM.

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Why not remove the RNG part of it? It sounds like you hate the RNG part.

Mercy from Overwatch doesn't do RNG. She channels a flat DPS buff into players. RNG shouldn't ruin a good idea.

The same Mercy that was nerfed in to the ground and where other healers are much better than what she can bring? Back to FFXIV though, I mean what you are asking for kinda already exists with Astrologian, when they are not healing then they are buffing the party and this is being emphasized again in the next expac despite the reduction in the actual buffs.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Why not remove the RNG part of it? It sounds like you hate the RNG part.

Mercy from Overwatch doesn't do RNG. She channels a flat DPS buff into players. RNG shouldn't ruin a good idea.

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That's what they're doing in Shadowbringers. Every card is a damage bonus, and then they have two more skills that increase damage. Scholars also have Chain Stratagem.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Why not remove the RNG part of it? It sounds like you hate the RNG part.

Mercy from Overwatch doesn't do RNG. She channels a flat DPS buff into players. RNG shouldn't ruin a good idea.

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Thats literally what the card changes did.

EDIT: For the most part. Theres still "rng" but its always going to be a wanted buff now

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Back to FFXIV though, I mean what you are asking for kinda already exists with Astrologian, when they are not healing then they are buffing the party and this is being emphasized again in the next expac despite the reduction in the actual buffs.

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Well good! I'd like to see a support healer, and I'd like to see it as good as the other healers. It'd be a shame if they couldn't balance them in a way that still let them be unique. Then folks who don't want to DPS have a legitimate option.

this is a terrible idea. i know you want attention cause healer hot topic but cmon healer is fine now play it in 2 weeks and enjoy

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Originally Posted by guardin

this is a terrible idea. i know you want attention cause healer hot topic but cmon healer is fine now play it in 2 weeks and enjoy

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I never see this idea come up. That's why I wanted to mention it. You say 'healer is fine,' but is it really? Or are you just being a jerk? I mean, that's such a blatant lie that I don't know the purpose other than to be a jerk. Because there's no way you can seriously believe that healers are fine, and that all complaints about them are done with?

But back to the point. I don't play a healer. I just had a cool idea I wanted to share. You can be toxic all you want, but I just wanted to share something that I haven't seen come up. We have 3 healers--they should have more options for different playstyles, right? Who doesn't want more options. And you're all out here "if it ain't don't fix it." and "It's all fixed anyways." Making me think you play healer even less than I do. Do you even play the same game?

If we want to consider something from Overwatch, then perhaps Moira's kit would be more interesting to implement in FFXIV. Absorbing aether from enemies to restore allies, and throwing little healing orbs around or placing them like a well could be pretty cool.

That would be cool! I'd just like to see more ideas that aren't so 2005. Where the DPS rotation is spam spells and dots. Gaming has come a long way since dps spells and dots, and I think there's a lot of room for innovation in healer design beyond "maybe throw some spells and dots in there when you have time."

I just greatly dislike how black and white the discussion always is with healers. Other games find lots of ways to make healers much more dynamic than pretending to be a dps mage on down time.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

I never see this idea come up. That's why I wanted to mention it. You say 'healer is fine,' but is it really? Or are you just being a jerk? I mean, that's such a blatant lie that I don't know the purpose other than to be a jerk. Because there's no way you can seriously believe that healers are fine, and that all complaints about them are done with?

But back to the point. I don't play a healer. I just had a cool idea I wanted to share. You can be toxic all you want, but I just wanted to share something that I haven't seen come up. We have 3 healers--they should have more options for different playstyles, right? Who doesn't want more options. And you're all out here "if it ain't don't fix it." and "It's all fixed anyways." Making me think you play healer even less than I do. Do you even play the same game?

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You're getting crap because you're suggesting something that's been in the game for 4 years. You don't need to play a healer to know that The Balance, The Arrow, and The Spear exist, you just need to have gotten an AST in a roulette one time.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

You're getting crap because you're suggesting something that's been in the game for 4 years. You don't need to play a healer to know that The Balance, The Arrow, and The Spear exist, you just need to have gotten an AST in a roulette one time.

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So what you're telling me is that an entire system is flawed, because it has RNG. And therefore a non-RNG system would also fail? I feel like you're missing that point. Mercy's damage buff IS NOT RNG, so why do people keep ignoring what I'm saying and commenting that AST is the same thing, but worse. Yeah, it's worse because of the RNG. Mercy doesn't have RNG.

I mean seriously, if you'd discredit any suggustion because of bad RNG--you'd might as well erase the whole game. Heck, healer DPS USED to be based somewhat on RNG, because they had a higher chance to miss with their damaging spells, but guess what? They removed the RNG aspect of hit chance.

Try not to be so short-sighted that you let the RNG aspect of a system ruin the entire system for you.

I mean, technically, what's also being suggested is not like AST, because AST cards are oGCD. While, Mercy has to choose to Heal beam, Damage Beam or use her pistol for personal damage (But 99.99% of the time, you'll be just holding M1 with Heal Beam. Due to the nature of FPS games where your target's always going to be taking some damage... Also, unlike say, Ana whom burst heals like crazy so can afford to pot shot enemies for damage, Mercy's healing beam is slow, continuous healing. Hence why she's terribly designed. She's just a trash version of TF2's Medic whom at least had overhealing building up additional health beyond 100% which was critical for screwing with Snipers)

Meaning that the suggestion would be more akin to having GCD actions that buffed damage of others. As an alternative to pressing DPS buttons. This could come in the form of buffs and debuffs.

It is an interesting position, wherein it can create some interesting gameplay between periods of healing, which doesn't rely on having to have a complex personal damage rotation.

It however, is a long shot, because:

DaNcEr Is BuFfEr

Like, everything about buffs in ShB comes down to that statement. Nerf SCH's Chain Stratagem. Gut AST's cards. Continue to not give WHM a single buff (Despite White Magic traditionally being where literally all the Buffs in the FF series have been, from Berserk to Haste to Bravery to Faith and more). Why? Because Dancer.

Ignoring the fact that Dancer has all of 3 buffs... DMG up for Partner, Crit up for Partner and DMG up for Party...

All the while, you can easily make part of healer tDPS being that they can exploit weaknesses in the enemy or embolden their allies. Having SCH apply debilitating poisons and toxins as well as using skills like Libra. Have AST have a card system that isn't RNG and isn't neutered down into "All Card Make Damage Gooder". WHM can get some of the temporary buffs that are classic to the franchise.

This need not only stop at rDPS buffs either, you can also make healing somewhat about providing utility and defensive buffs. Who wouldn't like to see Protect and Shell being variants of Palisade and Apocatastasis respectively? Having Nul/Bar skills? Float? Gain-spells?

To say nothing about utility based debuff skills like Dispel, Blind, Slow, Fog or even Sap if they thought of a way to make it functional for the games combat system...

All this, could be an alternative to the upcoming 1 Nuke, 1 DoT, 1 AoE as a way to fill time between heals.

But no, because Dancer...

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Originally Posted by Kurando

If we want to consider something from Overwatch, then perhaps Moira's kit would be more interesting to implement in FFXIV. Absorbing aether from enemies to restore allies, and throwing little healing orbs around or placing them like a well could be pretty cool.

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You... I like the way you think.

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Originally Posted by guardin

this is a terrible idea. i know you want attention cause healer hot topic but cmon healer is fine now play it in 2 weeks and enjoy

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not if you're an AST that doesn't want to be a balance bot

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Originally Posted by Callinon

We did. It was in Heavensward and it was called Astrologian and it was awful. The only thing it could do was roll a d6 and hope for a Balance. If it got the Balance it was great, at all other times it was a subpar WHM.

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except it must not have actually been awful by the time stormblood happened because it was a top healer in savage. Just because you personally don't like a mechanic in a job doesnt make it bad.

as to the OP, mostly because, the current stance is that all roles must have roughly the same capabilities, and balancing dps buffs versus dps isnt easy, since how well it performs depends on how well the team uses it.

i think its a problem, and would be better if jobs were diverse, but SE seems to want homogenization of classes.

I agree, healers should get a pistol.

I could ge t behind a healer only mount be being a set of wings.

Ah, but a Mercy that never uses her pistol is considered a "bad" Mercy still, similar to how if a healer doesn't do any dps, they are a "bad" healer.

Why don't we have a Healer like Cloud from FF7! Use a Buster Sword and equip materia, have the ability to use potions on others!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Kalise

"Because Dancer is buffer."

(Also, Mercy is one of the worst designed healers in any FPS game)

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She's no Ana, but she's far from low-skill or without moments of glory. It's just the metas she's been optimal in (Moth and then, post-nerf, Bunker) that make her feel so stale.

Extreme mobility, decent damage when swapped to, almost zero efficacy downtime (including for bonus damage). And, let's be honest, OW is every bit as much MOBA as FPS.

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

Why not remove the RNG part of it? It sounds like you hate the RNG part.

Mercy from Overwatch doesn't do RNG. She channels a flat DPS buff into players. RNG shouldn't ruin a good idea.

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This is a fair point, but the imbalance of Balance-or-Fail is far too often overstated. Not only could the other cards in fact be better balanced against it, but they could easily be reengineered to give every card decent contribution through its various indirect options (RR, MA).
The devs has just chosen, time and time again, to do neither of those things as to excuse the sudden plummet in meaningful utility afforded to healers. "We had to gut you, because no one liked RNG!"

The RNG was only a small part of the issue. Having multiple things to Draw wouldn't be a problem if each had meaningful value in itself and meaningful indirect value possible towards the goal of your choice. E.g.

• Kill the card effect cap so that Extended RR isn't near-worthless.
• Allow for proportionate re-uptake of Card durations when replacing one with the same effect. 15 seconds left on an Expanded -> 4 more seconds [(15*(.05/.2)] of the Enhanced replacing it.
• Allow Draw to continue charging in the background even as a card is readied. By the time your currently drawn card fades, the next is ready to be drawn.
• Remove the cooldown from Spread.
• Two charges on Redraw.
• Balance Expanded RR to be as little as half potency AND half duration across 8 players. Still synergizes best with CO.
• Un-nerf Enhanced RR. It now properly doubles potency.
• Royal Road no longer casts automatically. Instead, it has a no-animation (simultaneously castable) trigger; hit it before using your Card to apply it, or select a card-affected party member within their first 5 seconds of having received the card and use Royal Road to thus affect their Card, adding a further 20/30 seconds, doubling its potency, or spreading it.
• Buff the non-tank applicability of Bole, but nerf its simple percentile mitigation as not to make up to a (pre-ShB) Sentinel on demand.
• Buff Spear.
• Buff Arrow.
• Make Spire useful.
• Buff Ewer slightly, at least on self-cast.
• To compensate, remove otherwise excessive (to simultaneous healing+tDPS) oGCD heals, effectively replacing them with Minor Arcana. For their flavor, add traits or Additional Effects to Lord/Lady by the lost oGCD's same name. Lady, for instance, could take on Essential Dignity.

There, now your every Card possibility is still nearly as good as the next, shuffling wastes no Card generation time, and you can consistently bank skills.

Make a healer that buffs the DPS. Sounds like an Everquest Shaman? One of the favorite classes of many who played that game. Both for those that played the class and those that grouped with it.

Good question, I dunno why more companies don't make classes like that. Seriously, look at the game on its 20th year of development, 26th expansion, and 16 unique races and 16 unique classes and see what they did right.

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Originally Posted by Physic

except it must not have actually been awful by the time stormblood happened because it was a top healer in savage. Just because you personally don't like a mechanic in a job doesnt make it bad.

as to the OP, mostly because, the current stance is that all roles must have roughly the same capabilities, and balancing dps buffs versus dps isnt easy, since how well it performs depends on how well the team uses it.

i think its a problem, and would be better if jobs were diverse, but SE seems to want homogenization of classes.

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Reasonably sure I said Heavensward and not Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Make a healer that buffs the DPS. Sounds like an Everquest Shaman? One of the favorite classes of many who played that game. Both for those that played the class and those that grouped with it.

Good question, I dunno why more companies don't make classes like that. Seriously, look at the game on its 20th year of development, 26th expansion, and 16 unique races and 16 unique classes and see what they did right.

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That actually sounds like a Good Idea for Chemist if it ever happens. But if they want to keep Healers as MAINLY Healers, and they don't want Mandatory Meta Team Comps, then this might not happen. They might try to keep Dancer the Party Support. Hard to tell what kind of healer we would get for a 4th Heal.....

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

Why don't we have a Healer like Cloud from FF7! Use a Buster Sword and equip materia, have the ability to use potions on others!!!!!!!

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Balancing that shit would be near impossible. XD
Plus Redmage is already a Healer DPS....Almost sounds like a Concept for a Chemist to use Potions on others

You're ALL looking for the wrong solution. What FFXIV need is take a page from Wow and make tanks AND dps take damage from any and all enemies so they have to actually heal and be pro-healers. If healers had to really worry about people dying they'd have to actually learn to be great at healing. The healing ceiling isn't high enough outside of Savage raiding, that's the problem.

Where's the dungeon mob that hits dps like a truck?
Where's the dungeon mob that kills the tank in 4 hits?

I remember when Stormblood came out healing looked hella fun and tanking as well because it exposed who were the good tanks/healers and who needed to level up in that department. It didn't create a situation where dungeons couldn't be cleared but it created a situation where using ALL your tank/healer skills mattered. You actually had to spam more healing than just cureII, you needed to actually manage mp and manage your oGCDs.

So yes, make enemies more dangerous, it's fine if people die, they just need to strategize better and the healers will need to stop dpsing and use all their powerful healing skills that they're getting to their maximum potential. I just have to emphasize to the devs that just because you make healers heal more that doesn't mean that you'd be making the game stressful, you'd just be shifting the meta from dpsing all the time as a healer and throwing 1 cure here and there. Currently healers.....don't really heal, they can literally read a book and just press 1 healing button all day. The healer role needs to become a healer role again. Or just do what your'e doing with tanks and give them A LOT of support and damage skills....but tanks have that covered now so instead just focus the content on rewarding good healing, that requires enemies that will damage tanks hard and even the dps. I never get why dungeon mobs and bosses rarely if ever damage the dps, really weird.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

You're ALL looking for the wrong solution. What FFXIV need is take a page from Wow and make tanks AND dps take damage from any and all enemies so they have to actually heal and be pro-healers. If healers had to really worry about people dying they'd have to actually learn to be great at healing. The healing ceiling isn't high enough outside of Savage raiding, that's the problem.

Where's the dungeon mob that hits dps like a truck?
Where's the dungeon mob that kills the tank in 4 hits?

I remember when Stormblood came out healing looked hella fun and tanking as well because it exposed who were the good tanks/healers and who needed to level up in that department. It didn't create a situation where dungeons couldn't be cleared but it created a situation where using ALL your tank/healer skills mattered. You actually had to spam more healing than just cureII, you needed to actually manage mp and manage your oGCDs.

So yes, make enemies more dangerous, it's fine if people die, they just need to strategize better and the healers will need to stop dpsing and use all their powerful healing skills that they're getting to their maximum potential. I just have to emphasize to the devs that just because you make healers heal more that doesn't mean that you'd be making the game stressful, you'd just be shifting the meta from dpsing all the time as a healer and throwing 1 cure here and there. Currently healers.....don't really heal, they can literally read a book and just press 1 healing button all day. The healer role needs to become a healer role again. Or just do what your'e doing with tanks and give them A LOT of support and damage skills....but tanks have that covered now so instead just focus the content on rewarding good healing, that requires enemies that will damage tanks hard and even the dps. I never get why dungeon mobs and bosses rarely if ever damage the dps, really weird.

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Actually...I think this is what they are going for by making Healers ""Mostly Heal""
So I think YoshiP and team already got you Fam