GIVE SCHOLAR BANE AND FIX ART OF WAR MP AND WE'LL BE FINE

GIVE SCHOLAR BANE AND FIX ART OF WAR MP AND WE'LL BE FINE!

Also please increase aetherflow MP so that you don't need us to get energy drain for mana since you're clearly trying to force us to use aetherflow for heals which I understand. But yes, please give us more ways to get MP

Even if they didn't give us bane, Miasma II would be an improvement.

M2 > 3 AoW > M2

Energy drain is very important, if not essential too

I wanna know why SE wrote the SCH lore to basically be Combat medics reliant on tactics and "poisons" but seems to just be shoving the fairy down our throat. don't get me wrong I like her and all, but you seem to be going against your own design choices. Like why is SMN still using poison spells, those should go to SCH. I mean come on you named the new DoT Biolysis for crying out loud. at the beginning SCHs had the feel of someone who uses poisons to heal, which is a real thing, now I just think I'm gonna feel like a WHM with a pet. I guess I can always eat he and regain 6 hearts.

Just remember, tactics now is either holding onto Aetherflow stacks longer than needed (No aetherflow burn) or burning it on overhealing if you still have stacks when Aetherflow is back up. Good tactics!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

I wanna know why SE wrote the SCH lore to basically be Combat medics reliant on tactics and "poisons" but seems to just be shoving the fairy down our throat. don't get me wrong I like her and all, but you seem to be going against your own design choices. Like why is SMN still using poison spells, those should go to SCH. I mean come on you named the new DoT Biolysis for crying out loud. at the beginning SCHs had the feel of someone who uses poisons to heal, which is a real thing, now I just think I'm gonna feel like a WHM with a pet. I guess I can always eat he and regain 6 hearts.

---

This this this, where is my scourge of nym spell etc I want fun spells which match our lore.

The funny thing is, I don't think Art of War would need any adjustments if we simply kept Energy Drain and Aetherflow CD reduction.

People want to seperate SCH/SMN yet when actions are removed to help do this, complaints arise of waiting then back. I'm not against returning things to SCH's arsenal but at least request for them to be made unique to the job, wasted opportunity if we can't ask for something different (even if the effect is the same/similar).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurando

People want to seperate SCH/SMN yet when actions are removed to help do this, complaints arise of waiting then back. I'm not against returning things to SCH's arsenal but at least request for them to be made unique to the job, wasted opportunity if we can't ask for something different (even if the effect is the same/similar).

---

I would really like to know where you are seeing people clamoring for a separation of SMN/SCH? Who exactly? Because everyone I know loves that connection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurando

People want to seperate SCH/SMN yet when actions are removed to help do this, complaints arise of waiting then back. I'm not against returning things to SCH's arsenal but at least request for them to be made unique to the job, wasted opportunity if we can't ask for something different (even if the effect is the same/similar).

---

It's not so much the splitting of the 2, which at this point I am all for, it's about having a natural progression, and SE is doing a horrible job with that for both SMN and SCH . Instead of adjusting things so that they have the same start but different finishes, they are trying to force them to have different starts too. And that only works if you completely separate them, which they haven't/aren't doing yet. There is no reason they cant have base skills upgrade into different ones for the jobs, and have a skill that acts one way under SMN but a different way under SCH. I mean the summon skills summoned different pets so why couldn't something like Fester act differently, or Energy Drain, or Bane. The thing is SE is not creating a new job, and even if they were, they did it with BRD and MCH. Alls SE needs to do is give SCH copies of the base spells but with different names, done, we can all be happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Endeleon

I would really like to know where you are seeing people clamoring for a separation of SMN/SCH? Who exactly? Because everyone I know loves that connection.

---

A seperation has been talked about on the forums. But it's mostly because SE stated when HW was being released, that balancing the skills was a bit tricky. But when SB released that issue was seemingly resolved. But with the ShB release it looks like they are separating them... but aren't, we wont know until the release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knoahl

This this this, where is my scourge of nym spell etc I want fun spells which match our lore.

---

YES!!! Someone understands me.

Also, please, please, make the level 80 quest be a wedding. I wont say for who, but SCH mains know, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Endeleon

I would really like to know where you are seeing people clamoring for a separation of SMN/SCH? Who exactly? Because everyone I know loves that connection.

---

There plenty of posts/threads on the forums asking for more separability between the jobs, I didn't just create this theory out of thin air. A number of balance issues stem from the jobs being linked, of course with each expac this slowly gets addressed but think how easier it would be if they were seperate to begin with.

Quote:

---

Alls SE needs to do is give SCH copies of the base spells but with different names, done, we can all be happy.

---

This is what I'm saying, I'd be fine with this. Perhaps amend the effects slightly to better represent SCH but I wouldn't want things returned and nothing done with them when there could be something unique you know.

Like what, are you going to Bane your one dot? I also don't understand why people are saying they want Energy Drain back, it would be the most useless spender out of all the healing tools we have available now. It has 50 potency less than Ruin II, so using it for movement is just not a clever move. With how broken the Soil is, you can put 2 of them down in a minute providing tanks and or the party with a 10% mitigation buff. I think it's like half a minute total. On top of that, 500 potency heal per Soil. That's 2 spenders per minute. Then you can either Indom, Excog or Lustrate. Keep in mind you can "Life Surge" two of these. It's just a stupid idea with the current set up to give Energy Drain back as it would be an almost completely useless skill.

That being said, I'm not quite sure what the purpose of Dissipate is then. Surely we won't have all the stacks on heal spenders to then refresh three stacks to spend them on healing spenders again. That's the only argument you can make for Energy Drain.
I would much rather they give us Heavensward's Shadow Flare back (and let it be independend from Soil). Or give us Miasma II on a 30 second to 1 min CD that of an OCGD aoe with drawbacks. Make it around 250 potency total. Just do something to make SCH at least a little bit interesting whe DPSing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurando

This is what I'm saying, I'd be fine with this. Perhaps amend the effects slightly to better represent SCH but I wouldn't want things returned and nothing done with them when there could be something unique you know.

---

Of all the spells we kept as well it was ruin 2 lol

I hope one day we get spells with properties similliar to virus and shadowflare etc, which mitigated the damage of big pulls in dungeons/bosses as of SB we have lost a lot of our mitigation tools. Seems to be more of a tank responsibility now. It's why I'm considering moving to tank, as most mitigation on party members/off healing seems to have gone to them while they dps which is odd. Or at least from a quick look it does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

A seperation has been talked about on the forums. But it's mostly because SE stated when HW was being released, that balancing the skills was a bit tricky. But when SB released that issue was seemingly resolved. But with the ShB release it looks like they are separating them... but aren't, we wont know until the release.

---

Considering Scholar was a downright oppressively dominant healer it was not resolved.

A big reason for this was the extra DPS coming from shadowflare and energy drain, but also the fact that Eos is basically a better regen for single target damage, the fact SCH has a lot of oGCD tools to avoid healing and to provide utility, has more damage in DOTS making it more mobile, and had around 2k extra potency per minute over the WHM, which has less utility and mobility.

Energy drain is a long term balance problem because it combined with aetherflow makes it impossible for SCH to ever have mana issues, which is problematic because with its insanely strong manaless healing, raid utility makes it a total beast. And it isn't like they really need mana restore; even without aetherflow, energy drain, or lucid a scholar can aoe heal 33 times or single target heal 22 times before ever having to pause even for a second to get mana.

The class was overtuned. This isn't really debatable. It needed to lose potency because a class with that much utility shouldn't also top potency. It needed to lose mana efficiency because mana... isn't a mechanic for scholars right now at all. It needed to lose the ability to use Eos as a superior tank regen. These things... needed to happen, because you can't realistically buff other healers to compete with scholar if it is just so good at everything that being better at one thing doesn't matter because scholar does it 'well enough' AND does everything else.

It is weird and not cool that the DPS rotation is getting simpler, though the fact they are reworking mana means that maybe aetherflow being used as an offensive tool (even if their overall potency was lowered and it didn't restore mana) would be a trap, as SCHs would be depending on it more for healing. Their thematics were also obviously hurt, and it is really incoherent they don't have an AOE DOT.

But lets not pretend that SCH was fine and should have gone into ShB as it was. I can't think of a more 'bad guy' job in terms of crowding out other jobs than SCH, besides perhaps WAR. A lot of things about SCH from SB were clearly oppressive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dezzmont

The class was overtuned. This isn't really debatable.

---

This is why we need public test servers, so we can give feedback and help them balance the game. Even if it was select people I suppose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knoahl

This is why we need public test servers, so we can give feedback and help them balance the game. Even if it was select people I suppose.

---

PTRs don't work great for MMO design. I will say it would be ideal if they had a more nimble patch philosophy of course. MMOs work better with aggressive balance patching rather than a PTR due to how their meta works and how there is a very loved culture of 'server first clears' that makes a PTR intensely undesirable. When exploring the content, mechanics, and challenges of the expansion are the main draw, PTRs really hurt the longevity of an MMO. The last thing you want is for people to clear endgame content multiple times before the expansion is even out!

I do think there are issues with how healing was done, but it just downright bugs me how many scholar players utterly do not realize that they are sorta the bad guys here. Like there is a difference between 'my rotation is simpler now and I would like to have a more complex rotation and more focus on offensive skills even if I am going to have lower DPS than WHM because its clear my job shouldn't be the top DPS healer due to its extreme utility,' which is a totally reasonable take, and "I want energy drain and shadowflare back" without thinking how badly these skills sorta mess up the entire dynamic of scholar as the tricky toolbox healer by forcing their DPS too high.

Like either Energy drain would need to have so little damage that it would not be worth it compared to using aetherflow to heal and avoid going off DPS spells, or DPS spells would need a potency nerf to make energy drain mandatory in the rotation over aetherflow healing, which is obviously not desirable a design at all when they are trying to make healing more of a focus for the healing jobs (which MANY people constantly state they want).

To me, the fact the job is a bit too simple for people's tastes is a fine criticism (though if content requires more reactive 'tactical' healing, which would probably be a good thing compared to the current meta of 'don't heal or heal a LOT as fast as you can to pass a heal check' then that may be a bit too hectic unless you go 'cat heal druid' ala that one wow patch and let a healer class heal via offensive skills to an assist target) but the statement of 'Why did you take energy drain, give it back' is somewhat... irritating. It is VERY clear why SCH lost energy drain, it was a skill that boosted the SCH's pDPS really way too high, made the primary resource of a healer irrelevant, and stopped SCHs from looking at their primary heal resource as a heal resource. Even if you don't agree that SCHs should have lost all oGCD weaving aspects (To be clear I would love it if their DOT was an OGCD with a 10 second CD and duration so OGCD weaving was still an aspect of the job without pushing their DPS to a weird place), it is really obvious Energy Drain at the very least needed to be reworked significantly and can't just be slapped back onto the job.

yeah it's one dot but it lasts for 30 seconds which is pretty good. plus bane (for smn) is free now without needing an aetherflow. It's super easy to add and it'll help aoe alot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dezzmont

I do think there are issues with how healing was done, but it just downright bugs me how many scholar players utterly do not realize that they are sorta the bad guys here.

---

SCH, has always been broken yes, it wasn't really a large issue until Astro came into the picture and it became more obvious overtime, WHM was never the "dps healer" due to accuracy requirements not really working well with how its damage works, yet now its been pushed that way its interesting how much things have changed.

TBH my personal complaint is I just want the jobs to be the ones I loved in all the other FFs I've played as a fan of the series, but I honestly think I'm expecting the wrong thing from this game after Stormblood when cross class was removed. Aesthetically we have FF, just not really mechanically I feel. maybe I'm wrong to say that.

I do agree with your points about SCH and how strong it was though, I just wish the other healers were brought up to it, that they all met the middle ground instead of them all sinking to the floor.

Beta tests are what got ARR to where it was though, so I can't agree that PTRs do not work, spoiling the story/raids is not what we need, just an environment to test the jobs, see how they work and give feedback. Not nescessarily the content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

snip

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dezzmont

snip

---

You guys don't main SCH do you.

Look I'll be the first to say that SCH was top tier, but it's place wasn't so much above WHM or AST; the parsings from the raid communities show this. Not to mention some things are more dependent on player skill over potential raw power. But it's better to raise the other jobs up instead of knocking one down. They tried this when SB released and we see how that went; it's looking like the ShB might be the same.

And on the subject of skills and DPS. SCHs MP management could have been considered broken in ARR and HW, but that was fixed in SB. And SCHs had higher MP cost for spells, justifying the continous MP gains.

As for the skills we are losing, most of them are a part of Arcanist for the SCH kit, not SMN. We aren't losing them, but Resurrection and Physick are for SCH, but SMN still has them. Energy Drain and the poison spells fit more in line with SCHs lore not SMNs. SMN rarely used ED. And as for the ED, Ruin 2 thing that was mentioned. ED is an oGCD ability, not a GCD spell like Ruin 2. So it's not the potency that's importsnt, but the weaving. Plus ED was an Aetherflow sink when they needed to be spent. The MP regen was nice, but that's not why SCH want the skill back.

Also please be aware, that SCHs only have high sustained DPS, not high burst DPS. Not to mention SCH works well because its kit is more unified than the other two healers. Plus to add insult to injury I guess. The healers have the same issue the tanks do/did. With only three, one is always guaranteed a spot. That's another reason people wanted another healer, for the balance; since four healers guarantee a spot.

Buffing is a useful tool, to be sure, but its hard to buff other classes to match SCH because the reasons SCH was strong were more it was broadly great at everything, rather than being way too amazing comparatively at something. Like SCH didn't have fantastic healing output, but the way it healed was really helpful (mostly via oGCDs or automatic functions), and so just making another healer a stronger healer doesn't matter. WHM could have its potency buffed, but you would need to buff potency a LOT to make up for how it will need to entirely stop attacking any time it wants to use a non-oGCD heal, which it has to because its oGCD heals are very strong but limited in number.

This is a classic example of why that whole 'buffs over nerfs' mentality falls apart in real game designs. Sometimes buffing other things up to match why something is overpreforming pushes your game into silly places, compared to relatively tame potency and DPS nerfs on something. That doesn't mean the way they did SCH was good, just that it was reasonable they didn't fix the problem by doing something silly like creating a 500 potency stonega or something. Like to make up the DPS shortfall while accounting for the fact WHMs may need to heal 1 in every 5 casts, you would need to add 4000 potency per minute to the WHM, which would be... a bit much and would have extreme ramifications for things like TA windows and downtime DPS, or phases where you need to do a DPS race.

Specifically, I DO agree SCH lost a bit of its identity by losing offensive weaving, and they definitely should retool something to reintroduce it back into the kit without meaningfully increasing its potency per minute. It was legitimately fun and made the class very active. WHM is rather laid back, and Astro is very reactive. Keeps playstyles on healers versatile, and they definitely homogenized offense a LOT to the point if healing isn't reactive and tactical (AKA: They just have you spam physic instead of spamming broil) I would say healing will become VERY boring.

The ARR beta was sorta a different beast, and ARR was a very unique and unprecedented thing. However, MMOs really live or die on their ability to keep content novel as long as possible, so as to maximize the time they can spend without releasing new content without making it seem like there is a 'content drought.' How would you realistically test healers on a PTR without having players throw them at raid bosses and dungeons endgame multiple times, which would essentially be releasing the expansion way early?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

Look I'll be the first to say that SCH was top tier, but it's place wasn't so much above WHM or AST; the parsings from the raid communities show this. Not to mention some things are more dependent on player skill over potential raw power. But it's better to raise the other jobs up instead of knocking one down. They tried this when SB released and we see how that went; it's looking like the ShB might be the same.

---

It is very clever that you purely focused on the fact their DPS isn't THAT much higher while ignoring the core issue that the top DPS job shouldn't also have as much utility as the SCH does. It fundamentally does not deserve to be the top DPS job because it brings many other benefits to the table (some extreme) that overshadow other healers, the fact it isn't significantly higher DPS than the other jobs isn't the point.

Again, it isn't that SCH is blowing everyone out of the water potency wise. It is that SCH is SLIGHTLY better at EVERYTHING (and significantly better at specific things) than the other healers besides raid DPS. To fix that, you need to remove a strength from the SCH, and DPS is a super obvious choice because making the SCH worse at oGCD healing doesn't... work due to the fairy existing.

As to MP: Mp costs on SCH are a joke. Seriously go in and test how much healing you can output with your MP. Like just stand and cast spells until you run out. It is 22 for Succor and Adloquium, roughly, before you have to start waiting 1-2 extra seconds per-cast, and you go infinite and mana positive on physic.

When have you ever needed to cast 22 succors or aqloquium in a row? The job, effectively, has infinite mana.

I am not saying the job needs to be utterly gutted. But heck no it did not need nor deserve energy drain, and I know of no-non SCH healer comfortable with the state of SCH. SCH is my main healer (though I don't main healer, healer is my favorite MMO role, but healing in FFXIV is... very different than healing in most MMOs) and when I play it I kinda feel gross because its so obvious how unnecessary how many tools it has. Like I don't need eye for an eye on everyone, a magic resist AOE, heal increase AOE, an AOE heal on an oGCD with no resource cost, a superior regen if I just macro correctly, the ability to instantly abort a DPS spell preemptively to use aetherflow as an emergency heal, infinite mana compared to the Astro's very limited pool, AND top DPS. Like... why?

This implication that it doesn't deserve nerfs and that at most other jobs should be buffed (How, exactly, would one go about effectively doing that without getting really wacky? It is hard to buff jobs to be competitive in an environment like FFXIV healing where your main goal is to minimize the primary point of differentiation between the jobs outside of DPS) just because Scholar's supremacy in one domain is slight is very silly and somewhat intellectually dishonest. This and the screaming 'I don't like you Yoshi' thread, really make it hard to empathize with the things that people SHOULD be sad SCH lost, like satisfying, non-complex, and non-toxic rotational weaving that should have been moved somewhere else. Like that was a major SCH theme, it was nice to basically always double cast your DOT and to double cast broil and energy drain, even though it wasn't difficult it just FELT good.

Like I WANT to feel bad for scholars who legitimately lost some job identity in terms of mechanics but the reaction of SCHs makes it really hard to not go celebrate with all the WHMs that SCH is now finally behind them in hypothetical potency over time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

You guys don't main SCH do you.

---

I main Culinarian~

About Energy Drain... I don't know if I'm just really unlucky, but I've had so many SCH co-healers (or also just reading about those) that only ever used Aetherflow for Energy Drain, even though an Indomitability would have been really, really great in some moments. But it costs MP and dps, so they don't use it.

So in that regard I'm happy that there is no dps spell that can be used with Aetherflow stacks anymore. Even though I actually really liked using Energy Drain myself.
BUT they could have made it similar to WHM lilies. If you use 3 stacks you can use an oGCD attack with a 60s cd or something like that maybe. Wouldn't help with having to use the stacks for overhealing, but I don't know any other solution to make those bad SCH help healing a little more than making Aetherflow just for healing.

I'm actually even looking forward to being able to use Indomitability and Sacred Soil and so on without having a bad conscience because I'm losing dps right now. ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

You guys don't main SCH do you.

Look I'll be the first to say that SCH was top tier, but it's place wasn't so much above WHM or AST; the parsings from the raid communities show this. Not to mention some things are more dependent on player skill over potential raw power. But it's better to raise the other jobs up instead of knocking one down. They tried this when SB released and we see how that went; it's looking like the ShB might be the same.

And on the subject of skills and DPS. SCHs MP management could have been considered broken in ARR and HW, but that was fixed in SB. And SCHs had higher MP cost for spells, justifying the continous MP gains.

As for the skills we are losing, most of them are a part of Arcanist for the SCH kit, not SMN. We aren't losing them, but Resurrection and Physick are for SCH, but SMN still has them. Energy Drain and the poison spells fit more in line with SCHs lore not SMNs. SMN rarely used ED. And as for the ED, Ruin 2 thing that was mentioned. ED is an oGCD ability, not a GCD spell like Ruin 2. So it's not the potency that's importsnt, but the weaving. Plus ED was an Aetherflow sink when they needed to be spent. The MP regen was nice, but that's not why SCH want the skill back.

Also please be aware, that SCHs only have high sustained DPS, not high burst DPS. Not to mention SCH works well because its kit is more unified than the other two healers. Plus to add insult to injury I guess. The healers have the same issue the tanks do/did. With only three, one is always guaranteed a spot. That's another reason people wanted another healer, for the balance; since four healers guarantee a spot.

---

What of your post is even directed to me? I play SCH as an offhand and currently hold the number 1 healer combined DPS in the world across all Extremes. Not much, but I do know the class in depth. Now, let's first look at what you actually have to say.
Your first paragraph has nothing to do with what I said, so I won't respond to it. Except for the fact that when you factor in Chain Strategem and Fey Wind opener and potential reopeners, SCH is way above WHM DPS wise. Not only this, but due to the nature of both AST and SCH OGCD healing in the current state, they also just bring a lot more synergy and therefore healer DPS.

As a matter of fact, nothing you said touches upon why I state that ED in SHB and the SHB toolkit would be useless. Are you certain you've quoted the correct person here? Set aside the fact that Ruin II is an OGCD that triggers the GCD, it is still the most useless spender of the stacks in SHB the way it currently stands. You don't need a sink anymore.

While we're at it, give WHM back Aero III. I'll be so upset if SCH gets Bane but WHM doesn't get Aero III back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

While we're at it, give WHM back Aero III. I'll be so upset if SCH gets Bane but WHM doesn't get Aero III back.

---

They have Assize, Holy and their aoe 900 potency nuke with diminishing returns. Asking for Aero III and getting upset if SCH gets something more than their 150 potency 800MP skill lmfao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

They have Assize, Holy and their aoe 900 potency nuke with diminishing returns. Asking for Aero III and getting upset if SCH gets something more than their 150 potency 800MP skill lmfao

---

Because this as close to balance, damage wise, as we've ever been. AST is raid utility heavy, WHM is personal damage heavy and SCH is is in-between. Asking for Bane, Energy Drain and Miasma II back is asking for the old problems to return. At most they should get Miasma II back so they have an aoe dot. But spreading their 60 potency, 30 second dot? No that's horrible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Because this as close to balance, damage wise, as we've ever been. AST is raid utility heavy, WHM is personal damage heavy and SCH is is in-between. Asking for Bane, Energy Drain and Miasma II back is asking for the old problems to return. At most they should get Miasma II back so they have an aoe dot. But spreading their 60 potency, 30 second dot? No that's horrible.

---

No it doesn't. The reasoning people want Bane or Miasmia II or Shadow Flare back is so that it isn't ass in dungeons or to spice up the rotation a little bit so it's not boring as hell. I'd also appreciate it if you could keep your WHM problems out of SCH threads. This isn't about White Mage. This topic in particular is obviously about aoe damage for SCH. WHM does not need another aoe skill on top of what it already has. It is by far the highest aoe damage healer out there and that will continue to be that way even if SCH gets a Shadowflare, Bane or Miasma II. AoE is also very seldom something one should worry about when it comes to healer balance as it's rarely relevant in savage or ultimate content. But if giving SCH some proper aoe means that WHM should get Aero III back, by all means, I'm all for it.

I don’t think either of those are worth our time. Bring shadowflare and Ed back instead

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

What of your post is even directed to me? I play SCH as an offhand and currently hold the number 1 healer combined DPS in the world across all Extremes. Not much, but I do know the class in depth. Now, let's first look at what you actually have to say.
Your first paragraph has nothing to do with what I said, so I won't respond to it. Except for the fact that when you factor in Chain Strategem and Fey Wind opener and potential reopeners, SCH is way above WHM DPS wise. Not only this, but due to the nature of both AST and SCH OGCD healing in the current state, they also just bring a lot more synergy and therefore healer DPS.

As a matter of fact, nothing you said touches upon why I state that ED in SHB and the SHB toolkit would be useless. Are you certain you've quoted the correct person here? Set aside the fact that Ruin II is an OGCD that triggers the GCD, it is still the most useless spender of the stacks in SHB the way it currently stands. You don't need a sink anymore.

---

First off, why do I need to know your "number 1 in the world"? Not saying you aren't, but why is that relevant. Second, and this is directed to the guy who quoted me prior and you for this post. I said nothing about SCHs DPS. Alls I said was they were top tier but the raid data shows us it's not a massive advantage over the other healers. And then in a later paragraph, that healers have the same problem tanks have. With only 3 healers one is always guaranteed a slot, that one just so happens to be SCH. The only thing I said about their DPS was what type it was, that's all.

And in regards to Energy Drain, I'm not sure if you are just confused, but you repeated the wrong info again. ED is an oGCD skill, and doesn't trigger the GCD. Ruin II is a GCD skill and does trigger it. Do you see the issue now. And while we don't know if we need to sink anymore, but we will because of eventual dated content, we don't even have the option. Our only choice is to over heal, which isnt good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Because this as close to balance, damage wise, as we've ever been. AST is raid utility heavy, WHM is personal damage heavy and SCH is is in-between. Asking for Bane, Energy Drain and Miasma II back is asking for the old problems to return. At most they should get Miasma II back so they have an aoe dot. But spreading their 60 potency, 30 second dot? No that's horrible.

---

absolutely ridiculous. You think that's balance? you already have lily aoe 900 potency damage plus holy that's basically free since you never run out of mana, yet scholars have 1 single aoe ability that costs more than holy while not having unlimited mana like whitemages. Scholars in dungeons will end up being absolute trash if the last build we saw doesn't receive any adjustments. whitemages are absolutely god tier for dungeons even WITH bane/shadowflare/miasma2/energy drain existing for scholar, whitemages aoe is just unmatched. Bane wont really be TOO relevant for raids anyway since mostly raids are against a single boss so it's not like scholars are suddenly going to make whitemages cry and make them feel underpowered because of bane. plus dont forget that bane has damage falloff. you're making it seem way too overpowered when it's really not LOL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dezzmont

Like I WANT to feel bad for scholars who legitimately lost some job identity in terms of mechanics but the reaction of SCHs makes it really hard to not go celebrate with all the WHMs that SCH is now finally behind them in hypothetical potency over time.



I main Culinarian~

---

What do WHM have to celebrate? They are losing a DoT and gaining nothing. WHM will still not be meta because they STILL do not have rDPS. Despite the brutal cuts, classes like DNC and NIN will still make rDPS the most valuable tool in a Job’s kit.

SCH is not the hotshot kingpin you’re trying to make it out to be. It is in for explicitly one reason- Chain Stratagem.

AST does better damage, contributes far more utility, is infinitely more flexible, is super mobile, has better regen, and has the single best buff in the game bar NONE. WHM was certainly a neglected class in that both SCH and AST were fun, strong, and flexible. WHM was the prog healer, with FAR better healing than AST or SCH.

I cannot stress enough how SE has not changed up meta with these changes, and even if they make changes in the near future that do, they do not warrant taking away SCH’s kit. If you want to nerf SCH’s potencies into the ground, fine, but at least let me have fun doing less damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inkpot

SCH is not the hotshot kingpin you’re trying to make it out to be. It is in for explicitly one reason- Chain Stratagem.

---

No. Chain Strategem is one of the laundry list of reasons why Scholar is overpowered, but it's by no means the reason. Square tried to nerf it last expansion and it didn't really work, both because they lost a bit too much and because Scholar is so unbelievably OP that being slightly underpowered feels like the end of the universe. It's been a locked slot meta-warping job basically since it was released. Square has a hard time nerfing it out of that spot because its design is the problem, not its potencies. While yes, Scholar is probably the most fluid, best designed of the three healers, it's a double-edged sword. Cut its numbers too much and it's way too hard to play with no tangible benefit. Don't cut them and it's a locked slot, way-too-good-not-to-take job.

Like Dezzmont said. It has no real weaknesses. Great damage, strong numerous off-GCDs, a fairy that contributes a heck of a lot to efficiency, HoTs, defensive and offensive utility, and group shields when the need arises. It does everything, and competently to boot. There's a reason it's been the number one best in slot healer for progression, speed killing, and every other meta in between for all three expansions. Because its kit is tailor-made for the way this game's combat system works. Encounters favor exactly the way SCH's kit works, and avoid touching its vanishingly few weaknesses unless there's major deviation from normal design.

You can't really fix that with potency tweaks. You need to either redesign WHM and AST to play like Scholar, or delete the fairy in it's current incarnation to get rid of the power imbalance.

But who am I kidding, Scholar mains are going to scream and kick and raise Cain until they go from boring but overpowered to just straight overpowered, meta-hogging powerhouses like they've always been by 5.1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

But who am I kidding, Scholar mains are going to scream and kick and raise Cain until they go from boring but overpowered to just straight overpowered, meta-hogging powerhouses like they\\'ve always been by 5.1.

---

I think we can both agree that SCH is very good and meta-centric, and deserves nerfs, but everything SCH does, AST does +1. AST’s shields are stronger, AST does more damage, AST has more utility, AST has more mobility, AST can mesh well with any other healer (unlike infamously frustrating SCH/SCH setups) and AST has more raid DPS. SCH is inferior in every way.

Your comment that SCH is designed for this game is excellent, and how shocking that a healer in a game is designed to perform well in that game. AST with its cast time changes allowing for nonstop weaving is every bit as fun, engaging, and overpowered- that comment you said yourself should highlight not only how poorly designed WHM was for its own game but also how poorly designed these coming changes are that try to make everything into WHM. And on top if this, how taking away SCH’s dots and dps tools changes nothing about the class’ superiority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

I'd also appreciate it if you could keep your WHM problems out of SCH threads. This isn't about White Mage.

---

I only bring up WHM because the most likely reasoning for this massive shift in aoe damage is because they wanted to solidify WHM as the no utility high damage job.
Now I do think they went too far, but the solution isn't to just give then everything back. Remember what happened in 4.0? SCHs complained about low aoe damage, and suddenly they were doing more aoe and single target than WHM. I don't think we need a repeat of that.

Thinking more on it, Bane will probably be fine, but I don't think they should get back Shadow Flare and Miasma II as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inkpot

I think we can both agree that SCH is very good and meta-centric, and deserves nerfs, but everything SCH does, AST does +1. AST’s shields are stronger, AST does more damage, AST has more utility, AST has more mobility, AST can mesh well with any other healer (unlike infamously frustrating SCH/SCH setups) and AST has more raid DPS. SCH is inferior in every way.

Your comment that SCH is designed for this game is excellent, and how shocking that a healer in a game is designed to perform well in that game. AST with its cast time changes allowing for nonstop weaving is every bit as fun, engaging, and overpowered- that comment you said yourself should highlight not only how poorly designed WHM was for its own game but also how poorly designed these coming changes are that try to make everything into WHM. And on top if this, how taking away SCH’s dots and dps tools changes nothing about the class’ superiority.

---

I'm not disagreeing with your central point. I'm explaining why Scholar is overpowered, and why Square has failed to nerf them in a satisfying way every time they've tried. These changes aren't going to accomplish their stated aim. The only point where I disagree is the particulars of the pecking order. Scholar dominates and defines the meta, and always has. The fairy's contribution to efficiency for both healers is way more broken than AST's cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starflake

I'd also appreciate it if you could keep your WHM problems out of SCH threads. This isn't about White Mage.

---

Hard pass on that fam. SCH changes exist purely in the context where they out preform other roles in ways that are difficult to balance outside of making SCH worse at DPS to compensate for their utility and the nature of their healing kit. A thread about the desire to add back in DPS skills to SCH needs to address they were removed specifically so that ShB could push WHM as the DPS healer.

There is definitely room for SCH to have a more complex rotation without going back into SB Scholar DPS+utility king, which is unarguably an unhealthy place for SCH to sit, but lets not pretend this is not a win for WHMs on some level now that they absolutely have the highest potency output of healers both due to SCH losing DPS tools and them obtaining Dia and Afflatus (it is absolutely not an accident that SCHs no longer can decide to DPS with their healer job gauge while WHMs now can). There are ways to make this win not come at the cost of a single button rotation (Again, a really easy way to do that would be to make the DOT an oGCD with a 10 second cooldown and duration so that SCHs still contain offensive weaving), but SCH getting hit really hard in DPS was... objectively a good thing for the game and for other healers? Like you can either nerf SCHs to have lower DPS so their focus is on their utility, or you can apply really wacky buffs to other healers that make them more omnipotent like scholar. Contrary to what people think overbuffing tends to create more homologous game states than nerfing specific aspects of specific kits doing things you don't want them to do. With the nerf you get really clear differences between the healers (DPS WHM who loses a lot of DPS to movement or healing windows, offensive utility Astro with a lot of anticipation moves that make up for poor mana efficiency, and SCH with a lot of strong moves to instantly pop off and apply defensive utility while not losing much at all to movement) whereas buffing WHM to have raid utility and DPS to match scholar even while they are moving makes everything... samey...

Now not only does WHM have a better claim on a healer slot (Because they can DPS faster) but WHM+Astro is a realistic comp as opposed to SCH being mandatory and AST close behind. You can't talk about major balance changes without the context of the balance they are seeking to obtain, and part of why SCH players crying en-mass about losing mechanical power (as opposed to losing fun aspects of the rotation, which I can 100% get behind) is so offensive is because of how absolutely deserved SCH nerfs are.

Like for real a lot of these threads have made me go "It is really bad these healer changes are happening because I want the healers who support me to be happy even if I don't enjoy how FFXIV handled healer" to "Wow SCHs are kinda crybabies huh?" There are definitely valid criticisms of the changes, don't get me wrong, but so many people are acting like it is entirely unwarranted for SCH to be worse than another healer at basically any aspect of the game, and to some extent one can lay the fact we didn't get another healer at the fact no SCH change has ever stuck because people freak out any time its brought to be in line with other healers. That clearly isn't the main reason, but if I were designing FFXIV I would seriously struggle to come up with a 4th healer with SCH absolutely HAVING to have a DPS rotation, instant cast mitigation utility, on demand mobile healing, a powerful pseudo-regen, and raid utility. Like what else would I make the hypothetical 4th healer do in a way that makes you want to play em over SCH without basically invalidating AST or WHM?

I think it is pretty agreed by everyone that the SCH changes are not ideal. So definitely they should be improved. But threads demanding revisions without understanding why, or even deliberately demanding that we ignore why by refusing to recognize other healer jobs exist, A change needed to happen are not endearing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dezzmont

snip

---

If I'm not mistaken the single target "dummy" dps delta between sch and whm isn't that noticeable. I think it's roughly where it currently is. Something like 1 maybe 2 gcds ahead per minute. Thing is whm is going to lose those gcds to sch healing kit so I don't think much has been accomplished in this department. Especially if they up healing requirements. And this is only pDPS, not accounting for CS

I'm sure someone can step in and do the math again to confirm this (or not). But I wouldn't get my hopes up that WHM is the dps healer just yet (dungeons and multi-target are another matter, and whm is clearly ahead then).

Currently WHM outputs about 6858 potency a second, using Aero 2 and 3, but not Aero 1 which is a DPS loss, including casts of stone lost to applying DOTs, in a hypothetically perfect situation.

The SCH does 5750 potency a second, not using Miasma 2 normally due to it being a DPS loss just cast normally.

However we know SCH has a final DPS output that is higher than WHM due to mobility and lesser need to use GCDs, the fact SCH can weave better (Which does not come through with this napkin healer math at all, having oGCD and instant GCD attacks is more DPS than it appears on paper). 2k above WHM in fact! The ability to trade 150 potency for a big heal has a lot of value compared to trading 250 potency.

Evaluating the new WHM we see it gains, single target, to replace aero 3 that has significantly higher (single target) potency per-cast than Aero 3. 370 vs 720 in fact, AND you lose fewer casts of Stone to Dia! SCH meanwhile LOST potency from its DOTs (600 total Potency vs the old 620, though now you get an extra broil cast just like how WHM gets another stone cast per minute.

EDIT: I made a mistake here, Lillies do not enable an oGCD healing skill, meaning that Aetherflow still maintains a big advantage in allowing oGCD heals.

Furthermore, every 90 seconds you toss out a 900 potency attack, which comes out to an extra 600 potency a minute for the WHM, while SCHs in addition to losing DOT potency lost their oGCD attacks. So now oGCD offensive casts are a WHM thing, not a SCH thing.
But the biggest change to WHM DPS is probably the fact it is going to be more mobile and better able to weave heals than it used to be. Lillies are entirely different, and give an extra 2 oGCDs to WHM to reduce its dependency on GCDs, going from 6.5 on demand serious oGCD heals (counting Plenary Indulgence as half an oGCD heal because it depends on GCD heals) to 8.5. This means the WHM will be trading Stones (Now glares) for healing less frequently, in addition to the fact the potency gap got bigger between SCH and WHM, which was the main reason why SCH had more DPS than WHM. Now the WHM has MORE oGCD healing than SCH, which was a big thing pushing SCH's DPS numbers, AND its 'platonic' DPS is higher. It is hard to see WHM not becoming the clear pDPS frontrunner of healers for single target. While Dia is a SIGNIFICANT damage upgrade to Aero 3 the fact Lillies are a pseudo Aetherflow rather than a weird recast time reduction that depends on a GCD heal is going to probably push damage even more than doubling the potency of a DoT and increasing the base attack potency by a solid 50, which are both... absolutely huge changes in of themselves.


As for AOE... well... yes they lost Aero 3, but Holy Moly I think we all know why WHM is going to stay the king of AOE healer damage (sometimes even passing some DPS roles to boot in Stormblood!) in Shadowbringers...

I'm going to assume you mean per minute and not per second. Also, it was my understanding that Afflatus skills were on the GCD and not off it? Not to mention that misery incurs a dps loss before you can profit from it.

I'll do the math again eventually just don't have time for it right now.