I've witnessed a lot of stress and complaints regarding hunts over the past few weeks, especially in regards to the world visiting system.
As a dedicated spawner who loves to socialize and isn't particularly bothered by missing hunts(Even my own spawns) I have to say I have been having a fun time and deeply enjoy the world visit system.
Despite my personal feelings, I am genuinely sympathetic to those that wish to partake in Hunts but feel unable to or can't derive enjoyment from them as they are now.
Granted, I think a lot of people are fighting the wrong battle here; by blaming Wanderers and the seamless implementation of the world visit system.
The real issue is players completely overpowering limited mobs from older areas of the game, enabling them to be soloed within a few minutes.
World visiting may increase the odds of encountering selfish or even antagonistic players, but hunts have been a sensitive area of the game for a long time now.
Limiting or removing World visit will still leave a server prone to quick pulls or stealth kills if even one player doesn't care about organizing hunts as a healthy community effort.
With the current state of affairs regarding Hunts being quite problematic with the sheer power players have access to now, I dread how dire the gameplay of the Hunt could become when Shadow Bringers launches.
With an overwhelming mass of Level 80 players decked out in ILVL 500 gear. older hunts would easily be subject to obliteration.
Even if every community coordinated perfectly in harmony - I would still feel all hunts should have some BITE to them.
I started playing this game seriously during the release of Storm Blood, and on my favorite memories was the grand and epic scale of a swarm of heroes taking down a world boss that was truly imposing...even if was ultimately a zerg.
The current rice, supply and Demand of Time Worn Wyvernskin maps(The only means of spawning a specific S rank) should provide plenty of evidence that hunts are active content that promotes cooperation.
Please, let them evolve into something greater.
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05-18-2019, 01:39 AMTranquilmelody7Please consider revising the Hunt system and / or buffing Elite Marks
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05-18-2019, 01:58 AMShougun
I don't think it would be fair to buff the low level monsters to the power of the latest expansion, since then it's pretty much taking content away from people who are living in those expansions, and messes with that wonder of coming across a monster and thinking you could get a group together to take it. From level 50 guy going around seeing a rank A and maybe soloing it (duo/trio more likely), having a party together for an S rank, from that and definitely doing it to a level 50 guy getting rofl stomped so hard it strips their echo. :D
I had thought of a system to hopefully disseminate the train into smaller pieces (ideally a few groups run around trying to find and spawn them and at a lower pressure many other groups run around and find their remains to fight a sort of avatar created by your echo).
Perhaps you can add bite back into lower tier NMs with a mechanic added onto what I was thinking before (nms leave remains on death). Here there is a new item, some sort of void aether perhaps a void incense burner - when used at the remains it will create the fight anew much stronger than before (maybe slightly stronger than current tier S- leveled up and made more aggressive and the rewards items will be the original + current tier S rank monsters). Like a Dark Souls bonfire mechanic, I guess. Can fiddle with the mechanics and rewards to make it fit, like it's public and changes the zone weather and takes 15 minutes to complete infusion but is even longer and stronger with better rewards (only can be infused once of course), or down to a BCNM fight balanced to be really hard to a group of players (rather than alliance).
System (missing what I just added above) sort of described here:
But on the many train issues.. Something I was considering compiling into another thread.. (theme on open world), but.. I've been thinking after reading all the "early pull" vs wait for the "community to overload the map" posts that perhaps we can fell some of those issues in a system like:
When an A or S rank dies they collapse to the ground in a large heap (corpse). These corpse will last for a certain amount of time till they pass, or are interacted with (some % amount of time they decay before respawn is up).
Now when you kill a hunt live you will gain one extra roll chance, that roll can be for either items, tomes, or seals. This bonus roll may have a slightly modified loot table for balance like you get 40 Mendacity and the bonus roll went tomes which then nets you a bonus 20 Mendacity, but still it's something note worthy. Then the monster will fall to the ground on your screen and fancily fade away like a classic FF boss (pyrefly like effect).
IF you didn't get to be part of the fight, didn't get credit that is or weren't there, the boss collapses to the ground when killed and stays there. This includes people who weren't in the zone when the monster died. When you approach the corpse it will give you some immersive sort of dialog that gives you a hint at how long ago it died and will allow you to use your Echo power to attempt to generate a "like" fight (you may also optionally clean it up, from your client side, just in case it is blocking a quest objective or something). These fights will shatter with the classic FF transition (or screen swirl) and you'll be in an arena of some sort (like a BCNM from FFXI), where you will fight and be rewarded according to the monster strength. The monster will decay in three tiers (thirds), each one equally split in time, each tier will take away one roll reward (first stage all rolls remain except the fresh bonus mini roll, second stage items no longer drop, last stage only seals drop and not tomes). The monster will also become weaker at each step. These tiers can also be part of the immersive tip at how old the body is, like lets say since Rank A take about 4 to 6 hours to respawn the body will decay fully an hour at least before respawn. So if it says the remains are fresh then you know it's in the first third of the ~4-5 hour decay period, while the most decayed form (last third) would be about an hour or less until gone (and then about another hour or so till respawn). After fighting the remains in an echo fight they will disappear (or at least you can't spam fight them).
The strength of an echo fought NM will be lesser than in the open even at the first tier, and you may opt for weaker forms even when it's still a fresh body. So you can get the normal 3 rolls for a while after death, and it'll take about a 4 person party not being silly but not as hard as it would be in the open (or a very skilled over geared player, and probably only certain jobs with strong self sustain). While the most decayed variant that only drops seals (which you can opt for even if still fresh) could be solo'd on any job, so long as you actually press your buttons and not eat all the orange. Achievements would bet set to require fresh or alive (to not make it too cheesy to get).
If you've already killed the NM alive and someone in you party comes in late to the zone / joins late they can still start the BCNM (personal fight) but the player who earned the fresh reward will get rolls for the lower tier seals and tomes only (so poetics and allied seals instead). If they normally drop poetics and allied seals then they drop GC instead. Such that it's not a waste of your time to stick around and help out stragglers even though you got in fast and got the credit. Or consider any other reward, perhaps free teleports for the next 15 to 30 minutes or some other blessing/buff.
This could mean a lot for people who have slower machines and can't get into zones fast enough or can't handle too many players up at once, those that feel stressed that it's just not worth their time until they spend real money to upgrade (I think these issues exacerbate on larger servers, I hear on small servers it's not as bad sometimes). This also means that while you might lose out on an extra small roll (which is quite nice) you didn't miss out on the majority if still on good time, so people who pull early are fine to do so. There WILL still be people complaining about early pulls but I believe with a system like this that the community at large would feel it's not an issue anymore and the community fights would be a lot shorter and more one sided.
This system also allows players to sort of recreate the kill times on hunts and begin to actively hunt them, so hiding the info in a super active group is not as much of a thing anymore (sometimes a group silently kills the whole list and then no one knows if they're up soon or not). There will still be some vagueness though, like if the corpse decays you can guess it'll respawn in about an hour or two tops for A ranks but for S ranks it'd probably be two to six hours. Not sure about the special FATE NMs... perhaps they don't get included in this system, or they decay in 30 minutes to an hour after death even though they have very long respawns (not sure about them).
Beyond, I think, killing a lot of the momentum / salt mines of early pulls vs waiting for way too many people (that some don't get credit because too many), and beyond lower expansion NMs being mowed down before people who could use that content can play them, or small servers being hit by waves of big server groups (server hoping).., beyond that I also think the system could be neat because these epic monsters leave a footprint in the game world. You can be a new person to the game and come upon this great corpse and just wonder.. what.. what happened here? Then you touch it.. and it beckons you to a challenging fight (assuming new person in lower gear). I believe that might be interesting.
Could do some other goofy things with the corpses like a relic / monster hunter weapon / armor quest or new trophy system (approach the beast with appropriate tool (maybe even have DoL do something to it lol) and bring home raw material that a crafter can turn into something nice to put up).
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4980963 -
05-18-2019, 02:12 AMFable
They should change S Ranks to NM hidden fates, then we wouldn't have to worry about people missing out because of level since it would sync everyone down. 50 for ARR, 60 for HW, etc
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05-18-2019, 02:14 AMPanTone
They have increased HP and Defense of S Ranks in the past, would be nice to see another boost.
Or maybe some kind of HP system similar to FATE NMs (like, x amount of ppl in the area = x amount of NM HP)?
Also perhaps an implementation of a /anon status to alleviate the crazy amount of stalking that occurs for those that are spawning S Ranks.
Thanks OP for saying something! <3 -
05-18-2019, 03:37 AMSolisLucisCaelum
I might be echoing more or less what tranquil is saying, and I do actually agree with Shogun's post that something different should be done with Hunt Marks.
I do believe it is important to emphasize the stress and complaints that have been going around. Ever since the World Visit System was added, sure, we have been able to kill a lot more hunt marks than ever before!
But it doesn't come without a lot of chaos due to the actions of only a few. We as a community have been told before that The Hunt isn't meant to be a community activity, that it is an open-world mob and is designed to be interacted with in any way. However, over time a vast majority of players have really come to enjoy The Hunt. I and a lot of my friends have been hunting and spawning these marks for a long time.
Level 50 Rank S elite marks now have a very staggering low number of HP. Once it is engaged, it is killed within a matter of seconds sometimes. As a dedicated hunter and spawner, I think I can speak for many when I say that I also believe some change is necessary. There have been quite some players who have been talking about quitting the game, or not engaging in The Hunt anymore. There are instances where those who do not contribute to The Hunt take it upon themselves to take advantage of others' efforts, specifically to make it so that a majority of people can not partake in the hunts.
Blacklisting is a method of deterrence to players like that, as we are told. However, placing another player on your Blacklist does not disallow them to see what you are doing, or where you are going, or what you say in any Chat channel. They are still able to view your character name in Player Search, or their Friend List. What I mentioned prior to this passage is what leads to lots of others missing out on The Hunt. Not everyone has the time to already be partaking in the spawning, and scouting of the mark, and already be in the zone. Even then, there are instances where even those who executed the trigger of the spawn do not make it to the Hunt; instead those who somehow already know where it is before those actively spawning and looking, go to it before anybody else and engage it while others able to do too much damage thus overpowering the mark, kill it too quickly.
I believe we as a community understand that The Hunt is not something taken as top priority, as there are many other facets of the game we all enjoy! But seeing as though I and many others do not want anyone to stop taking enjoyment from hunts, I request that you take into consideration revising some aspects of The Hunt, possibly even changing how Blacklist works. I think increasing the HP of a lot of these marks, or implementing some sort of level syncing system, similar to that of FATEs or Notorious Monsters from The Diadem or Eureka, would be a tremendous step and maybe all we would need as a community to enjoy The Hunt more than ever before. Thank you for taking the time to read this. -
05-18-2019, 03:48 AMDrWho2010
i think if you are thinking of quitting the game over hunts, then byeeeeeeeeeee felicia.
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05-18-2019, 04:18 AMVnolanGive a man a fish yada yada yada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7
Absolutely. The system itself was flawed from inception, what needs to hap-Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7
Never mind lol. Thought you were serious about feeling there were issues with the hunt. You just want everyone on the server to be able to get credit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7
Better idea: An opt-in system that will automatically teleport players to any hunt when it spawns and will even pull them from duties. The system will also perform rotations for the players since doing anything more than reading a relay seems to be beyond them.
Cross World Visits Are Ruining Hunts
Proposal to Improve the Hunt System / ハントシステムを改善するための提案
Cross World Visitation is Hurting Hunts
Regarding cross-world visiting and Hunts.
A/S rank Hunts need a level sync like fates
Possible solution to cross world hunt madness
SE should say they're looking into allowing only one or two parties to get credit from a hunt. It would put a stop to the entitlement real quick. -
05-18-2019, 04:31 AMLiam_HarperNo need to be rude, the Hunt (particularly S rank Hunting) has become a daily activity for thousands of players. It's perfectly reasonable to feel unsure about playing a game that wrecks the activity you spend the most time on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWho2010
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05-18-2019, 04:52 AMAlucard135Let's be honest here, it's very rare that you miss an S rank that you spawned and you were still in the map. The majority of the complaints are from those that just wait for calls from LS to teleport to the S rank. Now I'm not saying that waiting for others is wrong or anything. But it's not the intended way that SE designed them to be. Hunts have the same rules applied to them as any other mob. If they were intended to be a server fight, they would have been made into FATEs like Ixion, Odin, etc. So nothing can be done to trolls that early pull it except black listing them or kicking them from hunt LS. If someone really doesn't want to miss on S ranks, their best choice is to help spawn them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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05-18-2019, 05:06 AMJeeqbitThis. People should stop blaming wanderers, and focus on trying to get SE to make hunts die slower in the face of a large crowd, however they go about achieving this. Perhaps they could make them FATEs and apply a temporary invincibility buff upon pulling similar to the one we experience in Praetorium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7
They also could allow more CWLS so we can more effectively share hunts with people on other worlds, reducing that guilty feeling when we can't get the message to them successfully that we're killing their hunts. I understand hunts aren't "theirs" but many of us wanderers still feel guilty when we can't get the message to them regardless.
They wouldn't be able to solo it in any reasonable timeframe at-level and buffing its health wouldn't change that fact. In practice that level 50 person will get a group of 70s who will group with them and help them get credit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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05-18-2019, 05:13 AMShougunIf we're talking about A ranks then yeah they could, especially if they got two members. Buffing it's HP so that it doesn't evaporate from level 80s is.. that's a HUGEEEEEEEEE hp difference. Went from a 5 minute fight (with ~2-3 people at level, which imo is very reasonable) to waste of your time unless you find the train. And SE has said these aren't meant to be 400 people monsters. To note some rank A have mechanics that make solo a lot more painful though.. lol, but I remember killing a few ~2 level higher than the NM (Rank A) early in HW and it didn't take very long (and when I had help it was much faster, and imo more fun than in the train (zerg is boring imo)). Also done it at level in small groups fairly quickly but I figured to mention solo'ing since you said it would take too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
S ranks are a bit if we're talking about those though (not something you could small party at level). Like the FATE idea suggested for only S ranks, I think that could help get more people in on it though that comes at it's own issues.
Doesn't have to be what I want of course (obviously lol) but I'd love for something to change and I feel like at this point SE probably needs some change (because cross server killing is a bit ridiculous in terms of opportunity value, all the NMs multiple times over in a line if things go well XD).Quote:
Originally Posted by SolisLucisCaelum
I feel that the FATE change would be the simplest and fastest change but we already know that making them a FATE wont quell the issues entirely just a few minor points at the cost of some other new ones, I feel its like the placard fix for housing system- helpful and adds a different sort of stress but doesn't address the core problem (the issue made different/possibly lesser but many core problems still exist). Still, cheap and quick to implement is a commendable value to have lol.
Also FATE'ing only S ranks would still miss a lot of the points OP and others have bring up with the current hunt system. While I think rank S could work in FATE (though it sadly takes them off low party or high gear solo, which is kind of interesting thing to do) I don't think rank A should ever be considered for that as it would take them off the solo list for players and small at level groups who just happen to walk across one, which I feel like takes away some of that exciting open worldness of an NM. FATE'ing a rank S will in a some amount do that as well since before it could be a party of 55s or something but now that the boss balanced to 45 level 80's synced down so it's going to have some goliath god level hp. I guess I just see FATE as the way to pile way too many people into the room, promoting and exacerbating the other issues that people will have (and at a point making the FATE have trouble keeping up yet people will want it to be stronger every time lol) and is clearly (as they've said) not what people were meant to be doing with them (not that I think players HAVE to play the way SE intends, just that I think the system itself has a number of issues).
For the more classic hunt problems was why my suggestion was trying to create a split where the hunters (those who find monsters and spawn them) are rewarded more and have a bit of an intense race between each other while the NM killers (train/just want to kill big stuff in the open) / want the rewards can still come around in their little groups later and take part in the system too. While giving more of that "stumbling upon something" feeling (because you approach these epic remains and could potentially challenge them), protecting servers from being stripped (your little server, meet the balmung NM train lol), and give hunters basic info so trackers become less of "they killed it in secret hwo dare they, lets black list them"- if they missed the race one time they can join in the next time with the info the corpse gives them (rough in game timer support). But to address that people want old hunts (level 50 ones) to still be hard is why I thought we could perhaps get them to be bonfire'd (bonfire aesthetic if anyone remembers from Dark Souls), such that a group of level 80s could come up to the corpse of a rank S NM and revive them into something terrifying and maybe with new rewards. But you could change the bonfire style system into something more public if people really wanted like each week there was a new set of puzzle challenges. Llike how people had to figure out how to spawn S ranks, completing one gives you a new set with a slight time delay to promote many timezone benefits (up to a max # of super NMs a week). These taking you all over the place and once completed would allow you to go to the site of an NM (remains) and fill it with corrupted energy (perhaps lore wise there is too much void energy around so we use the NMs as a vessel to purge it). To make it more public feeling this method causes all the zones around it to ring and do a sort of reverberation effect on the screen for a few seconds, the zone with the NM gains a void weather (different Odin weather type) and after ~5-10 minutes it spawns ready to delete people (scaled to the current max level, amount of people in zone, and to the current highest non-savage ilvl at the time). -
05-18-2019, 05:23 AMRaldo
Hi. Person-who-doesn't-give-a-shit-about-hunts here. Just popping in to say please leave A ranks alone (most people are talking about S ranks, so I just wanted to mention it). I quite like being able to solo the older ones. They are a pleasant surprise when traipsing through old zones.
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05-18-2019, 05:35 AMJeeqbitI'm not sure if it would present certain issues, but they could remove respawn times and make hunts pure RNG. It's because of respawn times that we have trackers. Relaying would become moot and no world could complain wanderers "sniped" their hunt because it can be spawned again immediately - if they go and put the work into it. If they could all spawn at any time for real, people would just get a group together when they have time and actually work for it. They could focus on spawning the same hunt repeatedly or different ones depending on what they enjoy or whether their goal is to farm something like the tiger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
You would get scenarios where people would spawn Nunyunuwi and Senmurv far less often, but that would make those that want the area S achievements have to put in the work to spawn it themselves. -
05-18-2019, 05:57 AMMsMisatoI don't do enough hunts, but the times I was able to do it, it was interesting. The other times, it would be found S rank here and 10 seconds later its gone because lets face, people what to kill it and move on and I can't blame them.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanTone
Freaking Steel Reign Fate is a good example of how maybe S possible A hunts should be. Still an impressive fate that messes up Tanks and DPS. No soloing that fate or small grouping that you need folks to bring him down. From what I understand Odin goes up a level each time he is beat essentially making him more difficult and goes down a level when he can't be beat so from what I read/heard. Maybe that is how S hunts should be treated somewhat? -
05-18-2019, 07:26 AMPanToneYeh, it would be fun to see S Ranks become a FATE! All the S Ranks have mechanics that not many ever get to witness.Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMisato
But let's be real here, that is a ton of development time. On top of that, the server-wide FATEs are always a complete mess when there are a ton of people involved. Ixion, Odin and Behemoth brought the Sargatanas server to its knees back when the content was fresh. Just imagine that at every S Rank, lol - because there are so many hungry for the tiger and title.
So as cool and fun as it would be, I don't think it is something reasonable to ask for.
Something much easier and possible for the devs to implement is increasing the S Rank HP+Defense and creating an /anon status. -
05-18-2019, 07:54 AMMarxamThe only solution I can see to this is there was an in-game counter that determined how much above lvl players were attacking the mob and/or it drops to 50% in less than 10 seconds, it will become immune and enter enraged mode where it recovers all it's hp grows larger and scales to the people attacking it while also receiving a dmg/haste buff. Hunts will always draw ire but at least with this implementation S ranks won't melt in less that 20 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7
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05-18-2019, 11:54 AMkidalutz
Or just make the hunts in other worlds stop giving credit to wanderers
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05-18-2019, 11:57 AMAraminaThat was one of the selling points of World Visit... so... not going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidalutz
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05-18-2019, 12:24 PMkidalutzNormally I'd be in complete agreement with this. But when you get wanderers who cant even remotely try and ask what the hunt rules of a server are on a daily basis and exacerbate the situation by rubbing it into peoples faces when they ninja a hunt it makes the whole thing look bad and will likely result in just what I said. Bottom line you're in someone elses yard be respectful and you wont get people wanting to take away your shinies before others have a chance to enjoy the benefits as well. There is a reason for the statement of this is why we cant have nice things. It's because a handful of people ruined it for everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramina
Basically people just need to communicate. would be easier if there was a straight up channel for cross server communication to keep the issue down and help keep people form being angry about it. -
05-18-2019, 01:09 PMAlucard135It's not a requirement of hunts to ask what player made rules are in each server. Furthermore, those that early pull won't care the slightest what these rules are. Even if you assumed the case of no reward for hunts, they would still do it because they love the drama that starts with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidalutz
The issue is not a "world visit" issue. It's an issue of having a large number of players participating. And with large numbers comes a high probability of these trolls popping. If you're on a high populated server, you'd see this happen regularly. So the only thing you can do is either spawn the hunts yourself, or just be quick before it gets pulled. -
05-18-2019, 09:01 PMKageTokage
The thing that's making me hate the current hunting situation more then anything else is the sheer number of people using the hunt sniffer program.
They instantly relay the S ranks to everyone else using the thing (Or even just looking at certain hunt trackers that are linked to it) if they happen to be in zone when something spawns, which constantly turns things into a mad scramble to get to them before they get melted once someone pulls them.
I've legitimately had difficulty making it to a hunt before it was killed even when I was already in zone trying to spawn because of them. -
05-19-2019, 08:15 AMTranquilmelody7Some of those may be shutting down soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
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05-19-2019, 08:29 AMTranquilmelody7You may think whatever you wish of my intentions, but I think you're quite offbase in assuming SE has any desire to restrict hunt credit to smaller groups to adhere to their initial nature of design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
I'd wager it's simply a matter of resources - current expansion hunts are fine, but SE doesn't want assign time and manpower to adjust old content if they don't have to.
If enough people voice requests for changes, they may opt to do so. -
05-19-2019, 08:43 AMPaladinleedsWhat if they made it with all hunts that they have a buff. The first party to attack it are able to damage it (getting a debuff that allows them to bypass the hunt mob's 1HKO reflect buff). Anyone that attacks it after or heals/buffs anyone with the debuff gets a 1HKO applied to them. Which also completely breaks every piece of gear in their equipped slot, armory chest, inventory, saddlebag, and retainers (oof, imagine the repair costs of all THAT). There ya go, problem solved. Taking your idea and dialling it up a few notches (since with your system, people could still help kill, but wouldn't get credit, if a buff/debuff was killing them for trying to help, it'd make the hunts take longer to kill AND would also stop them trying to do it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
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05-19-2019, 09:08 AMAlucard135You thought early pulling is bad, wait till you see lightspeed pullers after this lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinleeds