Edit: Updated 27/04/19
* Added Radiant Shield back in as Ruby Carbuncle's utility skill.
So I wanted to follow up on my previous thoughts about Summoners and include some other things. Also see my Pet AI Rework Suggestion which I believe could aid with a more pet-focused Summoner design.
The driving force of this idea is to attempt to encapture more of the classic feeling of a Summoner, where you bring out this powerful summon that aids you. Whilst trying to maintain some of the core gameplay that is seen with the current iteration.
Skill/Trait changes:
* Egi summons gained through the quests at level 30, 35 and 45 are replaced with Demi summons.
* As such, quest text and models used in cutscenes are replaced with "Demi-" and the new Demi models, which will now more closely resemble the Primals they're based off.
* Demi models default size should be about 40-50% the size of the actual Primal.
* /summonsize small command will make the Demi's about 30-40% larger than the current Egi's.
* /summonsize large command will make Demi's about 70-80% the size of the actual Primal.
* Carbuncles are now the default, always out pets. They are available in three flavours - Emerald, Topaz and Ruby. Ruby Carbuncle is unlocked at level 30. With the Summon III skill icon being updated to reflect that.
* Rouse becomes upgraded by Dreadwyrm Trance and the effect of DWT now upgrades your Ruin III into Burning Strike/Rock Buster/Wind Blade/Wyrmwave depending on which pet is currently active in addition to Rouse's normal effect.
* Enhanced Enkindle trait replaced by Enhanced Trance making Ruin IV upgrade procs reduce the CD on Dreadwyrm Trance by 5 seconds.
* Enkindle now has a 90s CD.
* Sustain is now a trait that causes your pet to continuously regenerate life.
* Physick now scales based on INT for Summoners.
Pet skill changes:
* All pets now have an auto attack (As referenced in my AI thread)
* Pets Reuse timers are now based on your own. With their primary skills now being cast when you use certain skills.
Emerald Carbuncle:
* Gust is now instant cast and used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma
* Downburst no longer has a CD and is now used when you cast Tri-Bind
Topaz Carbuncle:
* Gouge is now used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma
* Shining Topaz no longer has a CD and is now used when you cast Tri-Bind
* Curl now also generates a shield for all party members equal to 15% of their maximum HP.
Ruby Carbuncle:
* Primary ST skill is "Searing Slash" - Deals a two fold attack with potency 45. It is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma
* Primary AoE skill is "Ruby Cyclone" - Deals a four fold attack with potency 20 to all nearby targets. It is used when you cast Tri-Bind
* CC skill is "Cauterize" - Deals damage with potency of 80 and silences the target for 1s. 30s CD.
* Utility skill is "Radiant Shield" - Delivers an attack with a potency of 50 every time damage is suffered. Additional Effect: Increases target's physical damage taken by 2%
Demi-Ifrit:
* Primary ST skill is "Incinerate", causing high damage in a cone in front of him. It is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma
* Primary AoE skill is "Eruption", it is used when you cast Tri-Bind
* Upon casting Ruin IV he will cast a Radiant Plume on the target.
* Enkindle causes him to use Hellfire dealing massive AoE damage.
Demi-Titan
* Primary skill is "Landslide", which is a line AoE attack (No knockback though) that is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma
* Primary AoE skill is "Weight of the Land" which is used when you cast Tri-Bind.
* Upon casting Ruin IV he will use Mountain Buster on the target.
* Enkindle causes him to use Earthen Fury dealing massive AoE damage.
Demi-Garuda
* Primary ST skill is "Friction" which deals damage to the target and enemies around them, it is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma
* Primary AoE skill is "Great Tornado" which is used when you cast Tri-Bind
* Upon casting Ruin IV she will use Slipstream on the target, which is a line AoE skill that also stuns targets hit.
* Enkindle causes her to use Aerial Blast which deals massive AoE damage and also sends out a group of Razor Plumes which fly into enemies hit by Aerial Blast and explode dealing additional damage.
Demi-Bahamut
* Primary ST skill is "Wyrmwave" and is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma
* Primary AoE skill is "Akh Morn" and is used when you cast Tri-Bind
* Enkindle causes him to use "Megaflare" whichdestroys the planetdeals massive damage to the target and nearby enemies.
Aetherflow Changes:
* Consuming Aether causes a stack of Aethertrail Attunement.
* At 3 stacks of Aethertrail Attunement, the summon skill for your active pet is upgraded and when used will summon a Demi-Primal of the relevant type (Emerald > Garuda, Topaz > Titan, Ruby > Ifrit)
* After each Primal Summon you gain a stack of Dreadwyrm Aether. 3 stacks of Dreadwyrm Aether are consumed to summon Demi-Bahamut. (This delays Bahamut usage by 1 Aetherflow CD, but is made up for by each Aetherflow CD dealing more damage via Demi-Summons). Dreadwyrm Aether persists through death.
Demi-Summoner Idea
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04-25-2019, 05:00 AMKaliseDemi-Summoner Idea
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04-25-2019, 06:06 AMRollout
I would honestly prefer it if there were ONE Carbuncle summon. We really don't need a tank summon after ARR, since the damage you output is so high that Titan-egi can't even hold aggro. Just make it a single Carbuncle we summon and we can change what type it is with a glamour option. Then just make us change that Carbuncle into Demi-Ifrit, Demi-Titan and Demi-Garuda with different button presses, and make all three of them just be damage dealers.
Carbuncle can use ranged attacks and strives to stick by you. You hit "Summon Demi-Ifrit" and Carbuncle turns into Demi-Ifrit and does his charge, getting into melee range and laying into the enemies automatically with the moves it would use, like the conal fire breath and standard swipes. After forty seconds, he turns back into Carbuncle, then you quickly hit "Summon Demi-Titan," who, lacking any sort of charge-like move, needs to be in melee range to hit, but since Carbuncle is in melee range from the Demi-Ifrit phase, he's in a good position. Another forty seconds pass, and Demi-Titan turns back into Carbuncle, but you hit "Summon Demi-Garuda," who then does her classic jump, showering the area with Feather Rain, rejoining your side and attacking from a range.
That's forty seconds in total for all three, 40 x 3 = 120, which is two minutes, lining up to summon Demi-Bahamut perfectly. -
04-25-2019, 06:25 AMKaliseThat's not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
If you go full burst with Ruin III > Tri-Disaster > Fester to open, before he's got in range at all. Then yeah, you pull off him.
Otherwise, it's not too bad. I use Titan-Egi in Eureka quite a lot, he tanks stuff just fine (It's just a PITA to keep spamming Sustain all the time and having crappy Physick be crappy for self sustain >.>)
Of course, Demi-Bahamut wrecks his ability to tank by disabling him and wiping his enmity... But you can play around that and use Bahamut as a finisher for targets.
I feel that such a thing would limit SMN, especially given that Carbuncles can be utilized to bring utility - Such as the case in this idea where Emerald provides Magic Resistance debuff making it ideal for Caster/PLD compositions. Topaz provides defense for the party via a Shield (Which will also be able to generate LB gauge) making it a nice thing to pull out for Progression raiding and for particularly potent AoE attacks. Ruby provides in this case a Direct Hit boost which is a more universal damage boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
Isn't that kind of boring?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
Also, basically, just Bard?
Like, I toyed with the idea of having to summon each of the 3 to get Bahamut... But in the end it just kept feeling too similar to Bard's songs which they rotate between.
I especially wanted to try and increase the synergy between Summon and Summoner, hence having iconic Primal skills couple with your own attacks (Also, to bypass any dodgy AI) -
04-25-2019, 06:36 AMRolloutEureka is about the only place I would think to use Titan-egi, but that isn't how you should balance the game. If anything, I use Ifrit-egi or Garuda-egi in open world to kill the mob faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I feel like making three different Carbuncle all with different types of utility would result in either one of two things... the class being too strong due to overabundant utility or people only using one type of Carbuncle, because it provides the most rDPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Yeah, and Bard is FUN to play. I'm not saying that Summoner isn't fun, but I strongly feel like Summoner doesn't feel like a Summoner, outside of summoning Demi-Bahamut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I want the class to FEEL like a Summoner, even if it ends up playing similarly to Bard in some ways.
Though, when I was discussing the similar idea I had with my friends and static members, I also suggested they remove the DoTs from Summoner and give them more Summon-focused abilities, then give Scholar Bio III and Miasma III. Because then it would make sense for Miasma II to be on Scholar, but Summoner gets Miasma III????? But that's just my personal opinion on the matter. -
04-25-2019, 06:57 AMKaliseHaving a tank is also useful in other areas of the game. Heck, I relied upon him to do the job quests. He's also useful while doing FATEs solo, doing PotD/HoH etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
Basically, Titan-Egi being a tank is actually useful if you're not just doing Duties in parties and aren't at end-of expansion gear.
You do realise that the current Egi's have different utilities right? With Garuda providing the same 10% magic resistance debuff as Emerald Carbuncle and Ifrit providing Radiant Shield which is a physical damage increase debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
With them being pretty close in effectiveness.
This neither makes SMN too strong because of overabundant utility, nor makes people only use one type of Carbuncle.
So you want to make Summoner feel more like Summoner by making it Bard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
I could get into the DoTs debate, but I tried to leave most of the core gameplay of current SMN intact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
This meant keeping DoTs and skills like Fester, Bane and Tri-Disaster.
Since, honestly, the core gameplay of SMN isn't bad. Build into burst phases with DWT and then get ultra-burst phase with Demi-Bahamut.
Which is why I tried to recreate DWT phases but in a more "Summoner"-y style, where your burst phases are instead summoning Demi-Primals to come and blow stuff up for a short while. With the end reward ending up being the big bad Bahamut to come and deal huge damage.
With in-between burst phases being the standard DoT and utility management while building into the next burst phase. -
04-25-2019, 07:07 AMRolloutThere would obviously need to be some adjustments for the job quests to make it work. I admittedly don't remember many of the pre-SB job quests, so I don't remember how much you need Topaz/Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
If you're doing enough damage thanks to the summons, then you won't even need a tank. And if it's something that's so strong that you'd need a tank, then it's probably something you shouldn't be soloing in the first place, no? FFXIV is an MMO, after all, so ask your fellow player for a hand.
Yes, I'm aware and the community has mostly decided that Ifrit on Sic is just better, with high end players using Garuda and toggling Sic to get her to use Contagion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I want to make Summoner feel more like a Summoner by making the Summons the primary focus, yes. Though the theme of the rotation might be the same, they could add abilities to the Summoner to empower the Demi-summons or command them to use their other attacks as oGCDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
As I said, I don't think Summoner, at the base level as a job, is a bad concept. Rather, it just doesn't FEEL like a Summoner, it feels like a DoT mage that has a pet. I only feel like a summoner every two minutes, when I bring out Demi-Bahamut. Hell, half the time, I'm not even that concerned with my pet, since they're immune to most AoE damage, outside of any tankbusters that have splash damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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04-25-2019, 07:51 AMKaliseThat's terrible logic for balancing stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
If you use that logic you can remove all offensive skills from WHM's and then claim "It's an MMO, get someone else to help you!"
As it stands, Topaz Carbuncle/Titan-Egi exist in the game. They're useful to the players who find uses for them.
Removing them because YOU simply want to make Summons boring, seems silly.
Well... You just disproved your own point... Garuda with Contagion management is the highest rDPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
Ifrit is better if you don't utilize Contagion well, or at all.
That's 2 distinct summons to use. Compared to what? "Putting the focus onto Summons" by actively removing choice of summons and making new Demi's be auto-attack bots?
At least Bard's songs have impacts on your actual rotation when you use them. With WP getting you to use Pitch Perfect when it stacks up and with MB giving you the Bloodletter/Rain of Death resets.
It sounds like your suggesting that "Demi-Summons" become basically like Army's Paeon, ever BRD's least favourite song because it's simply a passive boost to damage (Not even particularly good comparatively to other Songs too)
Or... They could not make Summons auto-attack bots?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
You know... Like in my suggestion? Which has the focus on Summons, including 3 basic Summons to utilize between summoning Demi's. Which has room to keep them having their other attacks as well as adding in new ones to activate (Much like how we make Bahamut use Akh Morn currently)
Well... That's literally the point that I was trying to address with my idea in my Original Post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollout
I recommend you check it out.
It does everything you're looking for.
It puts the focus onto Summons.
It enables you to empower your Summons (Via Rouse which is tied into Dreadwyrm Trance as well as Enkindle which is on a lower CD)
It lets you tell your summons to use abilities (Via use of your own abilities, mitigating the low potencies on your own skills by having the rest of the potency brought by your summons)
It lets you feel like a Summoner more frequently, by letting you summon a Demi every minute and Bahamut every 3 minutes (Meaning a total of 4 Demi's per 3 minutes) - Without having this "Perma-Demi" style that would devalue the impact of summoning a Demi-Primal to the equivalent of a BRD swapping songs. -
04-25-2019, 05:23 PMJandor
So just to check I read everything right.
- You have your base pet.
- You can upgrade to a bigger 'demi' pet at 3 stacks.
- DWT is now a cooldown that changes your filler spell to a primal themed one.
- 3 demi summons unlocks Bahamut.
I'd personally prefer to keep the default egi (with carbuncle glam option) and have them upgrade into the bigger demi versions, I'm also iffy on giving commands through your own abilities, the pet switching to AoE when you do would be ok but in general I prefer to give proper commands.
Other than that, seems pretty solid to me. Sort of similar to my own ideas I've posted in the past :o. -
04-26-2019, 07:22 AMGrimoire-M
It seems solid to me. I’ll mirror the carbuncle complaint too. Not because I dislike Carbuncles, but because this progression directly conflicts with the ARR and HW summoner quest lines. You’ll have to go with the Demi-egi route as a result. To clarify, I mean Demi-egi during the DWT window, regular egi during the interim.
The direct hit buff on Ifrit is also problematic. Part of what keeps the current Contagion and Radiant shield in line is that the debuffs are mutually exclusive. Because of that and their respective damage contributions Garuda’s contagion is allowed to be stronger. Ifrit’s direct hit buff is strong enough to beat that iteration of contagion due to being universally applicable. I understand the pet auto attacks attempt to address this somewhat but you’d have to make Garuda’s potencies equal or stronger in some cases to balance it out. A better approach would be to stick to the current phys/magic split.
Beyond that I wonder about filler and the aetherflow lockouts still as they weren’t addressed but given you’re trying to emulate Bahamut I assume that’s the intent. I do agree that the pets need distinct filler, so some idea of what you had in mind after the DWT window would be appreciated too. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to put forward some ideas there. And it gets at some of what Rollout’s after (different things to do based on your pet) without being a Bard clone. -
04-27-2019, 10:34 PMKaliseThe general idea is to make the main "Filler" skills be used via your own abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
Meanwhile, other skills, such as the Carbuncle's CC/Utility skills being used as its own skill.
Though, for the Demi's I've not (Yet) added any non-filler skill outside of their Enkindle moves. Though, I'm still considering a change to Enkindle so as to make it so that you can more freely decide to Enkindle on all your Demi's... Perhaps if it was made a Deathflare style "Finisher" for the summon duration...
But generally, the things that will be auto-cast while you're spamming your rotation, are just the things that you'd never command your pet to use anyway.
I guess you missed literally the first 2 points in the original post...Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
True... I went back and re-implemented Radiant Shield. It's possible that Ruby Carbuncle could also take a slight potency hit or Emerald get a potency buff too, given that Ruby is designed in a way to proc more Ruin IV's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Outside of the DWT window... It'd play the exact same way as it does now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Which is the point of how I've addressed things, which is to make overall gameplay remain similar, but just more "Summoner" themed.
Any further changes to Summoner, would be independent of this suggestion - Such as adding in new skills that work off your summon, altering the DoTs in some way, adding new skills to use in between Ruin spam etc.
These things can always be addressed in standard gameplay designs (Such as level 70-80 skills and 5.0 combat system rework)
Outside of this fact, there is one other change to "DWT" windows, which is well, the reworked DWT itself. As an independent CD with CDR from Ruin IV procs... It would be something to manage.
I might perhaps try and put some more thought into its mechanical function to make it a more interesting maintenance buff (Sort of like how Blood of the Dragon and Huton are maintained through gameplay rather than just re-applying the CD skill) - Perhaps with more emphasis on working with your summon(s) -
04-28-2019, 03:53 PMGrimoire-MI didn't. The Carbuncles, while nice, are intended to be replaced by the Egi as part of the SMN questline. Their abilities see potency upgrades to reflect their enhanced power baseline. We literally gain the Aether to summon Ifrit, and then replace Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle's vessels with Titan and Garuda respectively. Your cutscene retcon is not a good solution to this when players undergoing these quests are going to expect to actually see the Egi all the time, and you imply that you want to update the Demi-primal models to better represent the primals during DWT anyways in points 2 and 3, so there's no real reason to change the Egi as they currently are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Beyond that I'm fine with this. I've discussed my other problems with your thoughts on SMN and Arcanist in the other thread too, if you're interested in that. I think it might be a good idea to bring some of that information into a separate thread, but the relevant beats on why SMN has to keep what it has now would be useful here. -
04-28-2019, 05:05 PMKalisePlease, if you're going to write fanfiction, keep it out of actual discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Nowhere in the lore are Egi's relevant to Carbuncles and our ability to summon them.
The only "Upgrade" is a mechanical one to just simply remove the ability to summon Carbuncles and "Replace" the Summon I and Summon II skills with Garuda-Egi and Titan-Egi. -
04-29-2019, 05:06 AMGrimoire-MIt's not fanfiction, that's actually what happened. Ludonarrative is still narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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04-29-2019, 06:39 AMKaliseIt is fanfiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Unless you can show me where in the quests, at any point, from level 30+ when you're doing Summoner job quests, your ability to summon Carbuncles is referenced.
Like I posted in the other thread, even the level 30 job quest, when you are first directed to Y'mhitra, she does not recognize you as anything other than someone whom has fought Ifrit.
Just like the Summoners you go on to train, also have no background in being Arcanists.
Throughout the job quests, there is no reference to your ability to summon anything other than the Egi summons and in fact, the "Summoner" summonings are considered unique (Thus, require a Soul Crystal) and not at all based around merely upgrading your Carbuncles.
Literally the only thing that references the ability to summon Egi and Carbuncles, is the (Non-canon) side quest for Egi-Glamours, where it's noted that since Egi are literally just summons made out of Primal aether, that you can thus mould them into any particular form you wish (With the only other form player character know, being Carbuncles). But again, as a side-quest, this is considered non-canon in addition, it's merely making a note that you can change the shape of Egi summons, not that you're "Upgrading" or "Empowering" your regular Carbuncle summons.
Unless you're next going to tell me that SCH's Fairies are "Upgrades" to Carbuncles, because "Ludonarrative is still narrative".
No, like you mentioned previously, Fairies are independent of Carbuncles, anyone with the right predication can summon a Fairy from a soul crystal.
The same is true with Egi. Egi's do not require the ability to summon Carbuncles. They just need someone with the right predication and location to initially summon it and then bind it to their will, with help of a soul crystal.
"Upgrading" of the Carbuncles is merely just gameplay because, at the time these jobs were created, classes "Evolving" into jobs was a thing. It's also why Arcanist itself is completely unlike literally any of its previous iterations in any Final Fantasy game whatsoever. Since, it was relegated to being a build up class for SCH and SMN jobs.
So, until you can provide proof, within the actual lore of the game (Which does not include "Ludonarrative" because there are PLENTY of things that are done purely for gameplay reasons which are non-canon) that Summoner requires knowledge of Arcanist's ability to summon Carbuncles in order to summon Egi, then this idea you have is pure fanfiction and thus has no bearing on actual discussions regarding lore. -
04-29-2019, 12:02 PMGrimoire-MHow about I do you one better and show you that Summoners are Arcanists and Scholars are (for all intents and purposes according to Canon lore as you've decreed it) their own kind of mage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
From your own quote of Y'mhitra in that level 30 job quest (which i've verified for myself already):
Note that phrase "arcane practitioners". What does that refer to? Well, the most obvious option is Arcanists. They wield Arcanima, after all. "Arcane" is the root word Arcanima and Arcanist are both derived from too, which has linguistic significance here, and continues to be repeated elsewhere in the Summoner Questline (Such as by Principia when we first attain him during the level 60 Stormblood Quest, I'm combing further through for examples of this). There would be no reason to use the word "arcane" to describe them if they weren't supposed to be Arcanists. It's not any other kind of magic that they're using. We even have the Allagans linked to aetherochemical processes later on in the Summoner Quest line, implying that they're magical scientists, something that does fit under Arcanists in the lore, given they're primarily magical researchers and many are also tacticians. Hell even the Egi themselves are referred to as "Arcane" entities by Y'mhitra (specifically during the Level 58 Quest, where she also explains why we can't summon the other primal Egi and has us undergo "Trance" instead).Quote:
We salvaged from the ruins a set of ancient texts describing the existence of a sect of Allagan mages known as “summoners.” These were arcane practitioners said to have the ability to siphon the essences of the primals and manifest this stolen energy as a biddable ally known as an “egi.”
Scholars, by contrast, are specifically referred to as Nymian Mages and are considered to be doctors off the battlefield and are given the role of field tacticians on it. Unlike that one 'arcane practitioner' line (where in the SMN job quests from that point onward they refer to those Allagan mages as Summoners, and only bring up the arcane when talking about the details of the actual magic they use), it's stated multiple times in the Scholar quests that they are mages of Nym. It's intentionally more broad. However, we know that they're definitively not Conjurers (This is explicitly called out in the level 65 quest), or Thaumaturges thanks to those classes and Scholar's respective historical roles in the War of the Magi, which in turn rules out White, Black, and Red Mages. What does that leave? Probably Arcanima, as there's clearly no connection from them to Astrologian either, but for all intents and purposes, we could treat them as their own kind of mage if SE wanted to.
Want proof? Watch this video of the initial parts of the scholar quest line (i'm avoiding his commentary here as it's not in the text). You'll note repeatedly there are references to Nymian Mages, not Arcanists. They do mention Arcanima, but only on the context of the player's skills. In the level 30 quest that Alka Zolka specifically calls upon an "exceptional Arcanist" so that we, the player, can lend our insight into magical research regarding Nym, something he lacks any understanding of as a marauder. Which again makes sense, as Arcanima is basically programming magic, and in the general scope of Arcanist's lore, they're treated broadly as researchers, tacticians, and scientists that all have expertise in various fields of magical theory, so Alka Zolka of course calls upon one for research and we can even assume that is likely what the Scholars were using. However, it's not explicitly stated here that Scholars did use Arcanima. Alka Zolka only brings it up in the context of noting our own expertise relative to his.
However it's also noted that the Fairy is a familiar bound to the Scholar Soulcrystal in order to preserve Nym's magical knowledge. In the level 35 quest Alka Zolka concludes that the reason you haven't learned anything (beyond Adloquium) from her is because she's forgotten almost all of it due to being inactive for roughly 1500 years since the era where the War of the Magi took place. The fact you've only recently attuned to one another (which happens basically just by you handling the soul crystal in the level 30 cutscene, as she's drawing out the remnant aether from the battle you had before to appear temporarily) means she can't pull out those memories out in order to help you learn anything. Alka Zolka assigns the player tasks to begin conducting experiments in an attempt to help her remember that knowledge, and thus pass it on to you, while he tries to decipher his texts to find anything. The result? He often finds general knowledge of their history, but he doesn't uncover any new spells. The reason we're using Arcanist abilities at all on Scholar at that point is because the Fairy literally can't teach us anything else. It's a case of them being the best fit for the scenario, and SE intentionally left the option to split them off later if they so chose to.
But yes, I don't have a basis for my carbuncle theory, beyond that literally Egi and Fairies occupy the same space as them mechanically and in terms of their respective job's lore they serve a similar purpose as a Carbuncle does to an Arcanist which they are given a direct link to, so I'll drop that. It seems obvious to me that the same base mechanic of creating an independent artificial entity for all three would be required or at least useful as a bridge to learning to evoke their respective pets but that isn't confirmed in lore. And they're all alike in that once brought out they have independent wills.
The only one that's directly shown to be different however is the Fairy, in that she's bound to the soulcrystal, something we definitively can say is not true of the carbuncles or the Egi. Fairies are stated to be familiars, who notably have long-term memories, which presumably is helped by the soulcrystal containing and preserving those memories. We do know that she at least requires a portion of our aether in order to summon her (this is specifically noted in the level 68 scholar quest), or at least a source to draw from, which is true of the Carbuncles and Egi. It is implied but not stated that in the first Scholar cutscene she appears in that she may have been using the remnant aether of that battle to show herself, but regardless of whether that was the source or not, she was only able to do so temporarily until we accepted her soul crystal from Alka Zolka afterword. She does have her own will too, otherwise that scene and many others don't work. We don't control her like we do the Egi. She serves us, but can act against our wishes without breaking our bond with her, which happens a few times in the Scholar questline.
While the Summoner Soulcrystal similarly contains memories of their art and thus has its use in their processes, you definitively require primal essence in order actually to summon an Egi using their methods. I assume not having a soulcrystal would similarly end in disaster for them because I think that was part of the plot point for that rogue ARR Summoner we had to put down to begin with, but we know for a fact you cannot summon any sort of Egi without first defeating a primal, then you must defeat the Egi you create from their essence in the appropriate conditions in order to 'tame' them. It's akin to domesticating a wild animal, which does also appear to be true of the carbuncles, though they're more akin to pets (otherwise the running joke about Tataru being unable to control hers doesn't work).
For Demi-Bahamut we know we needed to master Dreadwyrm Trance and Akh Morn in order to summon him, as that represented us learning to control and use his aether before we could even attempt summon him properly. I believe this had something to do with him being a far stronger primal than the usual Beast tribes but I don't recall the exact details, as Sari and Prin basically handed him to us as a reward for passing their tests. Apart from that, the minimum requirements appear to be the same as Egi (Know how to Summon, defeated the relevant primal), and it seems we have full control of him from the get go as well, and that along with being temporary we can say are likely features of Demi-summoning in particular.
Once thing I did note while looking at the scholar quest more closely (to ensure there's no more mentions of Arcanima beyond that video I linked), is that while the Fairy's memories bring out the core Scholar spells and Sacred Soil, that only lasts up until 50, from which the tonberries take over as your teachers from there onward. Which I forgot, admittedly. Notably though Surito Carito does explicitly teach you Lustrate, Indomitability and Dissipation in the level 50, 52, and 60 job quests you attain them respectively, both of the core healing Aetherflow abilities of Scholar and one of the tools that interacts with it. Everything else you learn in that period isn't explicitly from anyone. This doesn't override the idea that the Fairy and the Scholar soulcrystal are the ultimate source of the Scholarly arts, but it does lend credence to the idea that those abilities in particular are likely arcanima if we go by the same logic I was using for Carbuncles earlier, though again it isn't stated that they or any other abilities are when I looked at those quests. Excog is learned via level up and isn't referenced in Stormblood's questline as the quests are intentionally staggered differently to your ability progression there so that they're no longer locked to one another, aside from the capstone quest, where Lilac (the fairy in the Soulcrystal we wind up finding in the stormblood quests) is the one who teaches us Fey Union/Aetherpact. This is only stated during the text for unlocking Fey Union however, and to me that's even less 'Canon' than the Egi Glamours would be.
I do still think that Shadowbringers will confirm it one way or the other whether there's ever going to be a split off between both jobs however, with the default assumption being both stay tied to Arcanist, of course. Any lore they add to Scholar and Summoner on the First has the benefit of being from a separate world with different history, so it would be strange if they didn't confirm or even explore how Arcanima developed differently along the way in their respective job quests. I'd like it if they did more direct call outs to Arcanima too, to put things to rest, as it were. -
04-29-2019, 05:19 PMJandorYou don't have to have defeated Bahamut in order to channel or summon him. If I recall correctly the excuse used is that basically everyone in Eorzea got a good soaking of Bahamut tainted aether during the Calamity. He also left his mark on aether streams all across the continent, which can be used as fuel for Bahamut related shenanigans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Which does raise questions regarding the far east now that I think about it. -
04-29-2019, 10:42 PMKaliseI thought it was due to the fact that we literally bathed in Bahamuts concentrated aether as the reasoning as to how we were able to unlock Dreadwyrm Trance that meant it was simple enough to acquire the ability to summon Demi-Bahamut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
Though, it does leave some unanswered questions... Such as the whole thing around when Y'mhitra mentions:
Quote:
And as I struggled to unravel the ancient knowledge of the tomestones, I unlocked a good many mysteries...including the reason why you were unable to call forth Ramuh-Egi.
When you summon an avatar, you draw upon your body's reservoir of aether to grant life and form to what is known as an arcane entity─that much we already knew.
I had, however, overlooked the simple fact that our aetheric reserves are finite─thus the magnitude of egi that you are able to summon is limited by the extent of your own life force. Simply put, if the egi is too powerful, then the summoning fails...
Thus... The whole matter of, if Ramuh-Egi was too powerful for us to summon because of the limitations of our on aether... Then why can we summon Demi-Bahamut with no problems at all (Which is both a Demi and thus more powerful than an Egi AND also BAHAMUT the 10,000 yalm tall planet destroying, Calamity-inducing King of Dragons...)?
Unless it's meant to imply that our mastery over the Dreadwyrm Trance, where we infuse ourselves with Bahamuts aether, is bolstering our aetheric reserves to allow for such massive increases in power of our summons (Thus, we should be able to go back to Mor Dhona and summon Ramuh-Egi and tame him)
Oh this will be fun...Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
It refers to Math.
Arcane = Math.
It is the in-game way that ARC, SMN and SCH utilize their books to cast spells. Their books contain mathematical formulae that they direct aether through in order to do things like cast spells or summon entities.
It matters not the type of summon, or the name of the civilization devised/wrote the original formula, the end result is put aether through formula = spell happens.
For Arcanist, this is limited. Apparently, Eorzea doesn't have much in the way of mathematicians. Thus only simple Carbuncles can be summoned and the basic spells can be used (Ruin, Bio, Miasma, Physick etc.)
For Scholar, the Nymian Scholars of old spent a lot of time researching formulae as well as devising strategies. This lead to developing arcanima known as Fairies, which were useful for aiding the Marauders that made up the footsoldiers of the Nymian military, allowing the Scholars themselves to devote their attention to tactics and strategy.
For Summoner, the Allag Summoners of old devised a way to use the power of Eikons to create arcanima known as Egi and later Demi. However, given the more technological nature of the civilization, it ended up being essentially a primitive form of Computer Science, with later Summoning practices (After the whole "Lets murder all the Summoners" thing) being directed more at Aetherochemical research, utilizing machines to perform the complex formulae necessary to do incredibly advanced magicks at an inhuman speed, including (As noted with the SB job quests) cloning as well as being able to be incredibly efficient with aether (Allowing multiple summons simultaneously). Though, as noted by Prin, Sari initially didn't like Aetherochemical summoning, as it was prone to errors (In addition to at the time, wanting the teachings of Summoning to be passed down to future generations more easily than could be done via Tomestones - Hence why Prin is a book) but he kind of flipped out when his students were all murdered...
As such, Arcanist, Scholar and Summoner all use math to cast their spells. None of them rely on each other to function. With Scholar and Summoner taking different paths, where one is more focused on tactics and strategies and thus likely more physics based in its mathematics while the other is more akin to computer science and utilizing outside sources of aether (From Eikons (Or Primals as it happens))
They are similar in the same way that Arcanist, and Red Mage are similar, as they use their own aether to power their spells and thus are limited by their own capacity (With whatchamacallit from the RDM job quests looking to bypass that, much like Allags did when they devised Summoning. Where RDM dude used aether from other people and Allags used aether from Primals) but different in that their spells are wholly different.
Interestingly enough, Bard could also be considered math based too. Given that songs and music are literally just complex mathematical formulae and archery is merely simplegeometry(Stupid Hanzo) physics (Draw weight x Draw length = Velocity). Though they don't create any arcanima... Yet...
While on the flip side, Machinist approaches the same things as Scholars. Being mindful of tactics and strategy and the like (It's heavily noted in the job quests for MCH that because everyone keeps going on strike every 2 minutes that they need to use strategy to beat their opponents, be they Dragons or Knights). Thus, it's likely that if Ishgard ever becomes highly advanced in knowledge, the Machinist job will likely end up becoming some sort of Scholar/Summoner hybrid. Using technology to employ tactics and stratagem with extreme precision and power. Whether or not they will devise their own arcanima or just rely on physical automatons is up in the air though... -
04-30-2019, 12:44 AMJandorI can't really remember, it's been a while. I was basically under the impression that all the Bahamut related stuff is using external sources of aether, specifically aether that Bahamut left a mark on, which in Eorzea at least is pretty much all of it to some degree or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I got the impression that because egi are manifested primarily from our internal aether stores they essentially cap out based on your reserves. We get three because we're the WoL, other people might cap out at two, or even one.
The egi aether cap feels more like more 'excuse lore' than anything else though, it barely makes any sense, you only ever summon one at a time anyway.
How does having the option of one, two, three, etc in reserve make any difference? Are the currently unsummoned ones always draining our aether to a small degree? Titan-egi just forever sat in our soul like a big orange aether capping dead weight? -
04-30-2019, 01:07 AMKaliseI don't believe the option does, more so than the strength of the Egi itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
Like, we couldn't get Ramuh-Egi, not because we already learned how to summon Ifrit/Titan/Garuda, but because Ramuh-Egi is simply more powerful than either of those 3 and thus needs a larger amount of aether to summon and us, even being the WoL, don't have enough (Or at least, didn't at the time)
Well, Dreadwyrm Trance is merely changing how the aether is used. Basically, instead of directing it into created entity, such as an Egi, it is instead turned inwardly to enhance yourself. (I assume this is how Ysayle was able to become Shiva without the need of a bunch of crystals like typical Primal summons, directing the aether inwards being vastly more efficient)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
As noted by Y'mhitra:
"Rather than attempt to summon a separate, physical manifestation of certain egi, the most accomplished mages discovered that far less aether was required to infuse themselves with the essence of a primal's power."
Why Bahamut's aether? Because apparently Y'mhitra believes in "Go big or go home" (That and we had to face down an Ascian...). It also is somewhat convenient due to how much of Eorzea was splashed with his Aether during the Calamity so we didn't have to battle him to be able to use it (We just needed to go to the Cartineau Flats where it was "Steeped in Bahamut's energies" to initiate the Trance)
But yeah... Apparently, making a summon is not particularly efficient use of aether.
Though, with Demi-Bahamut, we literally get no lore about how we can summon it.
Literally all that is stated is:
PRINCIPIA
An unexpected development which you handled with exceptional grace, Mistress. And now, at long last, I can finally bequeath to you the highest secrets of summoning! Pray step forward!
YMHITRA
What a momentous occasion! The wisdom of the last of Allag's master summoners is yours!
Like... Great. But how?
How do I now randomly have the ability to summon Demi-Bahamut when previously I couldn't even manage a simple Ramuh-Egi? -
04-30-2019, 07:09 AMDyvid
K, so I think you need to take lore with a grain of salt. The gameplay is always developed first, always. After that they write the lore to fill in the gaps. In HW they wanted to focus more on the Summoner, not pet and didn't know how to add a fourth pet. They added Dreadwing Trace at the gameplay then wrote the reasoning after the fact.