WHAT?
WHY?
HOW?
and WHO?
A lot of people that were looking forward to a new healer. Welp it seems like there won't be one. So now we really wanna know.
Why not?
What happened?
How did they come to this?
and finally,
Who is to blame? The players? The design of the game? The holy trinity?
Ask Away and hopefully our questions will be answered.
6 Years without a healer?
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03-24-2019, 11:13 AMRaylazer116 Years without a healer?
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03-24-2019, 11:21 AMHuntrss
The holy trinity? Because if your going to be True to it you can't Make anything that doesn't fit it or Otherwise Limited Jobs type.
WHY? Yoshi-P said in an interview that GunBreaker came early and he went Dps because he wants to Focus on Balance with Healers (how long that will take is another issue. He has gone on Record saying White Mages need to be Pure Healers and the rest go in line to there place in The Holy Trinity " you can't work outside that line"). -
03-24-2019, 11:31 AMcrazedtoo
I know this is rhetorical, but....feel like the blame will currently lies with Ast just being a duplicate of the other two (as needed) and the design of encounters.
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03-24-2019, 03:13 PMKadrothan
With my friends, the breakdown was mostly like this.
Tanks: “Gunblades!!!”
DPS: “Oooh!! Shiny new Chakras to throw around!”
Healers: “We have to wait another 2 years? Because of balance? AGAIN??!!!?? REEEEEEE!!!”
I play healers a lot and was really disappointed by healers getting passed up... again. -
03-24-2019, 03:32 PMLozza
Given they have provided the same excuse "balance" as they did for why they weren't adding a healer in SB I have pretty much 0 faith that they will actually succeed in balancing them in SHB. We are pretty much in the same place as we were at this same time in HW leading up to SB - SCH and AST meta with WHM sidelined. Frankly I feel the gap between dps and heal output is much less this time, and when you compare healers to tanks the balance issues with healers seem reasonably small - namely utility/raid support. Unless they completely reword the identities of AST and WHM I doubt we'll be in a different position leading up to 6.0 in two years time. I also have no doubt that SE won't hesitate to bring out the "balance" excuse again after showcasing two dps for 6.0.
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03-24-2019, 04:45 PMAhrijlaken
They had 4 years to balance/fix/rework healer .... they don't have any excuse.
DPS aren't balance neither, tank aren't balance neither ... still they add new DPS and new tank. -
03-24-2019, 05:08 PMprogramcanaan
Gaia and the hammer could mean geomancer sooner than people expect. They only dragged on the subject of the hammer. Kind of a nudge nudge. Maybe it just isn't ready to show yet.
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03-24-2019, 08:06 PMYuyuka3
Omg, just shut up about this already I swear...
Better pray they actually change something this time instead of just further unbalancing things... though I have to admit, with that 'make WHM easier' quote floating around my expectations are in the negative numbers until proven wrong on that one, too. Still, no new healer is the best outcome and all the outrage about it is just plain laughable. -
03-24-2019, 08:17 PMTeraluna
I’m not buying this class balance as a reason for no new healer. Other classes don’t have perfect balance and it didn’t stop new dps/tank being added.
At the moment it’s not even three separate healers, more like two and a half as AST copy pasted WHM skills.
Come on SE get working on a battle cleric! -
03-24-2019, 08:29 PMLambdafish
The alternative is 6 years without a physical ranged DPS, and considering that we only had 2 physical ranged DPS as opposed to 3 healers, this makes sense.
Next expansion will most likely be healer and caster DPS given the numbers -
03-24-2019, 10:20 PMDeceptusThere are 6 current ranged DPS jobs. BLM/SMN/RDM/BRD/MCH/BLUQuote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
5 if you don't count BLU but will be 6 again once DNC drops. -
03-24-2019, 10:59 PMEaMett
Well to be fair and to play devils advocate here. It’s entirely possible that the “support” classes are under represented in the player base and were a priority for them. If they only wanted to release two classes that left them having to choose between tank and healer. We now know which one they picked.
Of course this is only half the story. I highly suspect they have no idea how to introduce a new healer within their self imposed constraints. And I don’t see that changing in 2 more years unless they really revamped healers this expansion -
03-25-2019, 12:16 AMGreven
I hope they will add an healer job before 6.0
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03-25-2019, 12:19 AMDualgunnerThe role action separates casters and rangers, and Yoshi P himself separates casters and rangers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
https://i.imgur.com/goE8gxb.png -
03-25-2019, 01:18 AMDarkpaw
Actually rather interesting how everyone sees this as only healer balance being the reason. When he also stated that Gunbreaker as a tank was decided early because it was difficult to break down tank classes as MT and OT with 3 so they knew they wanted to bring in a tank job so they could balance that properly as two MT and two OT. As for people saying there are 5 or 6 ranged classes, while technically accurate it is also a falsehood. You have 3 or 4 counting BLU caster DPS, and 2 physical ranged DPS, and the physical ranged DPS haven't been balanced. Ever. So a new physical ranged DPS was actually needed so they could even attempt to balance that role. Now is that a good reason for no new healer. Eh, that's debatable, and more than likely probably not.
However, that is the answer that we were given and to some degree it is also understandable. I get the frustration of no new healer for six years, but I think their reasoning has been somewhat misrepresented whether that be by the dev team themselves or perhaps a translation error, or even just the community misunderstanding their words isn't important. But it seems to me that they are trying to balance everything out with this decision and not just worry about healer balance. So the lack of a new healer isn't stating that healers still need time to be balanced even though I'm sure there are still some issues to work out. More like it's important to balance everything else out before adding in a new healer. -
03-25-2019, 02:07 AMHustensaftDPS are selected by what provides the highest raid DPS... adding DNC into the equation changes absolutely nothing about which of the three ranged physical DPS is being taken to a raid - you just have one more spec competing for one of the four damage slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpaw
You can even argue that adding a new physical DPS job adds more restriction to raid setups. MNK and RDM have physical support skills - while BLM and SMN do not - and 7 out of 10 DPS jobs deal physical damage. -
03-25-2019, 02:50 AMForgottenScholar
I think these debates are skirting the larger issue, when he refers to healer balance it prob isnt just the small area of raid balance (as for the larger community only a small % access this content regularly) and more their roles within themselves and their identifiers. WHM is supposed to be the pure healer class with the most OGCD heals, SCH is supposed to be the dps healer, DOT dps primary, with healing pet for a buffer and AST is supposed to be the buffing healing class able to change between regen or shield healer. Now in current format and to an outside player is this the case? I do not think so, not by a long shot and with attitudes always quoting the meta it is extremely hard for a new player, from maybe another MMO thats not doing well (say isnt there one made by Blizzard? lol), to find the right healing role to do.
SE has had to add a trust system (in shadowbringers) to aid in dps queue times which is an indication of diversity on the roles, balance to me might be better than adding another healer to a system that isnt clearly working, Time will clearly tell. But the most vocal of any community is usually the smallest demographic, therefore we have no idea how many of the larger communities do not like healer roles due to the current way their balance is. This has always been the case for tanks too and they are going down the route of MT OT to help with that and need 4 jobs in order to get done. -
03-25-2019, 04:18 AMGeminaThis is a discussion forum, and everyone has a right to express how they feel about the situation. If it is grating your ears/eyeballs then turn away. This is a big issue, and we're not just going to sit idly by and ignore it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuyuka3
Balance is their excuse, but it is not the true reason why we are not getting a 4th healer. We are not getting a 4th healer at least at the launch of 5.0 for a myriad of reasons. One of them is AST. The addition of this job in 3.0 really screwed things up. It showcased that they could not find a way to make a 3rd healer truly unique giving it the base skills of WHM and tossing in a card mechanic. It is now over-tuned and because it has nearly the entire base toolkit of WHM, leaving WHM out in the cold.
Role skills is another. An extremely flawed design due to an antiquated and stubborn FFXI/FFXIV 1.0 mentality of thinking such a system works in this mmo. No role has suffered from this atrocious design more than healers.
PvE content design is a third reason that has also backed them into a corner which does not allow healer A to have distinctive advantages/disadvantages in comparison to Healer B and Healer C. Since all three healers can easily meet the healing requirements, the only way to accomplish this is to diversify their DPS kits and they did a poor job with this as well; once again leaving WHM out in the cold.
Another reason: BLU. The devs made the decision to allocate time and resources into its implementation which could have been spent fixing this healer cobweb we're entangled in. This then leads to reason five: neglect. I don't know if they see the healer community as the least desirable role to play based off some BS chart or other form of figures and numbers but a decision was made to leave the healer status quo as is. See reason number three. What really sucks is that the limited job concept failed. BLU was clearly the wrong choice, and while there are some players who are fine with it, there are far more who wanted this job to be viable for duties in very much the same way the healer community wanted a 4th healer.
We already KNOW that healers are unbalanced. This isn't news to anybody. The problem are the reasons why they are unbalanced. The circumstances that have lead to the state the healer community is currently in. The dev team still has my support because I sympathize with the amount of pressure that is on them to bring satisfactory content to so many different playstyles, but things like this break down those supportive pillars due to feelings of being underappreciated.
I can't even begin to comprehend how you think not having a new healer is the best outcome of this situation when it is the outcome of an extremely bad circumventive situations the devs have put themselves in. -
03-25-2019, 04:35 AMDarkpawWell the thing is all we can do is speculate why they are not giving us another healer, and while you make a really well constructed and well reasoned argument the fact is that we don't know. All of those things you listed could very easily be the exact reasons why they decided to not give us a 4th healer. Full job role roster balance could be another. The fact is that only the development team truly knows why they made these decisions. Anything we say is just speculation and guess work, and guess work no matter how well educated is still guess work without facts we can verify.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
We know they have stated they are planning to revamp/replace the role system and I don't disagree it's unfair to healers more than any of the other roles.
I don't know that I can say that BLU is a waste. Blu and the limited system were an experiment for them and I won't condemn them for trying out new things whether they fall flat or not. It gives them ideas of new things to try in the future that could bring in something truly special in the future.
Ast I can agree that they've always had problems with balancing, and usually when it gets close to being in a decent spot it's only because WHM gets pushed out into the cold. They really need to define set parameters and boundaries between these two classes.
I don't believe this was the best outcome possible but I do think it's probably the most practical outcome they can see for now, and more than likely it probably leaves a pretty bitter taste in their mouths because they know they made a decision that alienates a section of their playerbase. We just have to hope that there's a bigger reason for it in the grand scheme of things. -
03-25-2019, 04:45 AMLambdafishI made the distinction between ranged and caster in my post, and you should know that there is a massive difference between the two types of DPS if you play the game. Regardless, I edited my comment for clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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03-25-2019, 04:49 AMLambdafishThat might be true for casual content (for queue time convenience), but for high end content the roles are indeed split up to have 2 tanks/2 healers/1 ranged/1 caster. And that's not a community thing, there are fights that require two ranged DPS, and the ranged and caster jobs are intentionally designed to not synergize with each other very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hustensaft
With that in mind, it makes sense why the Devs would want to add to the role type that is lacking. -
03-25-2019, 05:23 AMYuyuka3It's not that I disagree with you. Actually, quite the contrary. I agree on almost every point. However, the reason why I think that not getting another healer yet is the best possible solution is because I don't want them to allocate resources into figuring out what new healer to make that will only be another copy-paste job in the end. I want to actually, deeply think about the existing healers, evaluate what's wrong with the current situation, come up with a solution, and then implement said solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Unfortunately, my hope for this has since been crushed by the "make WHM more easy"-garbage comment that's floating around now, and that, believe it or not, was presented to me as something good when I first shown it yesterday. "At least they are doing something about it! Just wait and see!"
Yeah, thank you, I waited and saw pre-4.0 already, and see where it took us. I'm not gonna wait and see anymore. That comment is on the same level of bad as the "pure healer"-bullshit from pre-4.0...
Ah well. I digressed. -
03-25-2019, 06:22 AMGreywolfamakir
8 years without Jedi Knight job...
Why?
How?
When?
Who?
What?
YES, 6 years with no one new Healer.
WHO CARES? current healers (SCH/WHM/AST) will get new skills, changes and new/change mechanics...so who cares? -
03-25-2019, 06:38 AMMorbolvampireQueen6so will dps so will tanks we care because they never put us healers first they put blue mage,monster hunter, and ff15 event over us then use our unbalanced as a excuse .. when THEY COULD OF FIXED IT IN STORMBRINGERS IF THEY CARED ABOUT US HEALERS AT ALLQuote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
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03-25-2019, 08:24 AMLozzaAll jobs will be getting new skills. The combat system is getting yet another revamp and most if not all jobs are going to get big changes. How are healers special in all of this? They aren't. Healers are getting nothing that other jobs aren't getting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
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03-25-2019, 09:29 AMDarkpawTo be fair healers were not the only jobs that were screwed out of fixes in Stormblood. Machinists begged and pleaded for ages, and are now cautiously optimistic for something good to happen come May. Now that doesn't mean that there isn't real reason to be upset about there not being a new healer. There absolutely is, but this particular argument may not be the best one to put forward. 6 years without a new healer is extreme to say the least. Yes, there have been balance issues with the healers, and yes, white mages have gotten shafted pretty hardcore. If they want more time to fix it then it is what it is. I'm all for giving the Devs feed back about their design decisions, but the argument stating that it could have been fixed in Stormblood could apply to a number of things, and the MHW and FFXV crossovers most likely had no impact on the decision as money and resources are allocated for these things well in advance and not generally taken from other core design decisions. We have no indication that the crossovers or blue mage itself robbed resources away from the teams responsible for job balance in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6
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03-25-2019, 05:37 PMLozzaThe problem lies in the fact that this is the 2nd time that healers have heard this particular song. Many like myself were content with the explanation in SB, and expansion to fix the balance issues didn't seem like such a bad thing. Yet despite healer forums generally giving a lot of feedback as to how healers were unbalanced, we've ended up in exactly the same position as we were before SB launched, hearing the exact same excuse while tanks who have similar issues to healers (though rather than PLD being at the bottom pre SB, DRK is) are getting a new tank because they feel the need to balance them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpaw
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03-25-2019, 06:17 PMDamianFatale
AST is not a copy of WHM or Scholar. I admit that we share similar skills of the two, but you guys don't have the card buffs, or time extensions on regens. We do unique things.
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03-25-2019, 06:21 PMLambdafishMy biggest problem with AST is the sects. Those stances to me just read "SCH mode" and "WHM mode" which a big problem for class identity. If they removed those and reworked AST into something that deviated from SCH and WHM I think it would be a lot better received in its own right.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
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03-25-2019, 06:24 PMSebazyI'm not really sure how you can make a statement of this?Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
The core kit is absolutely a cut and paste of WHM, doubly so in Diu sect. It's GCD healing setup functions identically to WHM and until the introduction of Earthly Star, you would typically heal in almost exactly the same manner as well. -
03-25-2019, 06:48 PMCrushnight
Diurnal and nocturnal need to be reworked take away the regens and shields and replace with something like
Diurnal - AB/AH - Increase potency of card buffs on target cannot stack cannot be refreshed keep same healing potency
Nocturnal - AB/AH - Increases duration of card buffs on target cannot stack cannot be refreshed keep same healing potency
or something else ast can heal fine without needing AB/AH shields or regens ast identity is its cards so i feel the sects should reflect this and not be the current whm sect/sch sect -
03-25-2019, 06:50 PMLambdafishYeah this is what I meant, I would love these changes. Healing with cards sounds really interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
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03-25-2019, 08:17 PMMisutoraru
That’s the exact issue I have,
I always have a main in each role, AST being my main healer since HW, after level it to 70 and gearing it I start leveling SCH and WHM. I lose my initiative to level up both, they just feel the same as AST without the rng card system. The core are the same.
I was expecting a new heal role in new expansion and I always feel dancer feel to buff/debug role more than heal
I don’t want another carbon copy of existing healer with identity issue. It is not heal exclusive, back in HW release, MCH feel very similar to BRD too. -
03-26-2019, 07:04 PMReiryuu
Anyone wanna take bets that all 4 tank jobs get mounts as well this expansion? SE never seems to have problems with spending resources on tanks... =/
Hmm... I'd think it'd make a lot more sense to make the AST a HoT healer, personally. Change Benefic and Benefic II to HoTs that heal the same amount they do now but over 6 ticks (initial cast hit tick +5) give them a much shorter cast time and a slightly reduced MP cost. Then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
Diurnal Sect- Either 1) Aspected Benefic now halves the duration of the next duration, healing the same amount in 15 secs. or 2) All HoTs now heal for their full amount in half the time.
Noctournal Sect - Same 1) and 2) but with a different effect Next/All Hots become a 1 (or more?) minute duration buff that creates three healing satillites to orbit the player. When damaged (or when the target reaches a certain % of HP or lower) an orb bursts and heals for ~2/3 of what the heal would be if the spell were a direct heal like they are now.
I'm not good with numbers balance wise, so consider those just examples. This is to balance HPS (healing per second) so the longer duration buff would heal more per burst because those heals are taking longer to take effect. (double the healing, but over more time.)