Exploring Eorzea's Existing Lore

I know we're getting a lot of new stuff for Shadowbringers, which is very exciting on all counts. Honestly though I would be just as (if not more) excited in some ways to expand upon existing city states and NPC connections.

I SERIOUSLY want to see majority Duskwight, Keeper of the Moon, Hellsguard, and Plainsfolk settlements. I want additional plotlines that circle focus back to the political struggles of Gridania, Limsa Lominsa, Ul'dah, Ishgard, Doma, Ala Mhigo, and Kugane. One major issue addressed doesn't make things perfect. We have room to show protests for Beastmen rights in all three original city states but especially Limsa Lominsa. Kugane has shown that trafficking of intelligent races is practiced, and that can be examined in further detail elsewhere as well. Not everyone's fortunes in Doma or Ala Mhigo were improved by liberation, and like Asahi and Yotsuyu there are sure to be embittered Garlean loyalists scattered throughout. There are allusions to discrimination against Duskwights but this has yet to be explicitly shown in-game. The impoverished in Ul'dah remain downtrodden despite efforts at reform and it might be interesting to see if developing technology (ex. railroads such as seen in Thanalan) is at odds with elementals in Gridania. Ul'dah's ruthlessness in war against Sil'dih could also be examined or even expanded upon across the Eorzean Alliance in war against Garlemald. And Ishgard, after centuries of isolationism and bloodshed in the war with Dravania, is planting itself in the wars of Eorzea as a whole. The Warrior of Light might have their gratitude, but the Alliance itself refused to aid Ishgard. As more Ishgardians fall in battle with Garlemald while the Halonic faith struggles to recover from it might be interesting to see if there is division in public opinion and any antagonists arise because of such policies.

I don't want to just move on and forget past city states, or to abandon fleshed out NPCs like Aymeric, Estinien, Yugiri, Hien, Gosetsu, Lyse, and so on except for the odd cameo. And I'd love to see additional fleshed out NPCs outside of the immediate leaders for the original three city states.

Does anyone else feel like this? Is there any existing lore you want to see in practice? Any plot threads or questions related to established locations you'd be excited for?

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker;4894946
I [I

SERIOUSLY [/I]want to see majority Duskwight, Keeper of the Moon, Hellsguard, and Plainsfolk settlements. I

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there aren't any Keeper of the Moon settlements as such. The Keepers normally live in small family groups consisting of a couple of adult females and their children. Keeper males are typically lone wanderers.
There aren't any major Duskwight settlements either, apart from the bandit camps we see in the Black Shroud. The Duskwights used to live in the underground city of Gelmorra, but after all the Wildwood Elezens and Midlander Hyur moved out of there, there weren't enough people left to maintain Gelmorra so it is just uninhabitable ruins today. Some few have moved into Gridania, while the rest try to make a living as bandits and brigands - which gives the Duskwights a bad reputation which in turn force them to live as bandits since few people will trust them enough to employ them.

I doubt there are any major Plainsfolk settlements either, they are too mixed up with the other races - just like Dunefolk, Midlander Hyur, and Seawolf Roegadyn, none of which have any majority settlements either.

Overall Eorzea is a place where the various races mix a lot, to the point that there are very few settlements dominated by a single race.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

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I mean we could still see occasional settlements of Keepers! They're described as still having their own cultures and all. Has to come from somewhere, and we have seen multiple Seekers already. Duskwights I remember hearing about Gelmorra, but there's also this point:

"Gridanians have long perceived the Duskwight as outcasts and brigands, as many of them resort to common theft and banditry to make ends meet. Some Duskwight still dream of restoring a measure of prosperity to the fallen city of Gelmorra, reestablishing it as a settlement for their people to remedy this situation."

If this isn't legitimate my apologies, but I would seriously love to see an attempt by Duskwights to organize and re-establish themselves with their culture apart from Gridania. I think that would be a really interesting plot point, and would give some attention to them when they've felt pretty invisible in practice, and would help examine imperfections in Gridania more when at least to me they've felt a little idealized compared to other places.

I mean there's no reason why there couldn't be major Plainsfolk settlements. We haven't seen it yet but we could.

And I disagree on there not being majority settlements for other races. I think Limsa is majority Seawolf, Gridania is majority Wildwood and Midlander (to the point that it's how the Twin Adders got their name/symbolism), Ul'dah is majority Dunesfolk, Doma is majority Midlander, Ishgard is majority Wildwood, Sui-no-Sato is Raen and the Azim Steppe is Xaela. Majorities in different spots with different cultures is a thing in-game! It doesn't mean it's universally one group or anything, although this can happen as per Xaela. Ul'dah totally has significant minorities of Hellsguard, Midlanders, Seekers, and Highlanders for instance. Gridania has some Keepers in their midst and Limsa has Seekers, Midlanders, and Plainsfolk minorities. Similarly, Ishgard, Doma, and Ala Mhigo also have minorities. But I'd argue that it's possible to see a main group and cultural influence in different spots, and idk I find that interesting and would like to see it fleshed out further.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

I doubt there are any major Plainsfolk settlements either, they are too mixed up with the other races - just like Dunefolk, Midlander Hyur, and Seawolf Roegadyn, none of which have any majority settlements either.

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Thavnair would likely be the closest thing to something of a Plainsfolk homeland since they're originally islanders and Thavnair is an island nation. Then again, the flip side to that though is that all we've seen from there are Hyurs.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Thavnair would likely be the closest thing to something of a Plainsfolk homeland since they're originally islanders and Thavnair is an island nation. Then again, the flip side to that though is that all we've seen from there are Hyurs.

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Pretty sure it's the same thing with Miqo'te? It's been awhile since I reviewed their lore but I remember them being transplants to Eorzea. Though with regards to the Plains Folk I wouldn't rule anything out. We didn't see a single sign that Roegadyn were present in Doma or Hingashi prior to the expansion dropping and then BAM, it turns out Othard has them living there in abundance.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Pretty sure it's the same thing with Miqo'te? It's been awhile since I reviewed their lore but I remember them being transplants to Eorzea. Though with regards to the Plains Folk I wouldn't rule anything out. We didn't see a single sign that Roegadyn were present in Doma or Hingashi prior to the expansion dropping and then BAM, it turns out Othard has them living there in abundance.

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Yup! Honestly it was interesting that so many were Hellsguard too imo, and that Gotsetsu specifically is an Othard-specific subrace of Roegadyn but no other members of that subrace were shown. Room to examine that if SE ever feels like it too.

Eh, some of this looks like backpedaling to when were just an adventurer and not the known and trusted Warrior of Light to our leaders of their respective city-states.

Specifically, beastmen rights and protesting for them just don't make sense. 1.x showed beastmen working with the other races. What changed was the Ascians and teaching them summoning and then being enthralled by their own summons' wishes. Uh, yeah, no rights for the enthralled. We've already seen the city-states are perfectly fine with beastmen not under the influence of their patron primal deities, from the sylphs just outside of Gridanian to the beastmen quests that we can complete.

Other stuff of this is covered in the lorebooks you can buy and other things just don't make sense (like technological advancement, sure, but when you cross into another city-state without permission, that's called invasion and would be in violation of an alliance). IE: A lot of the races migrated to different areas as well as their places of origin are all mentioned in the lorebooks.

Also, Ishgard pulled out of the Alliance when the Garleans made it clear they were coming for Eorzea, as well as Gridania and Ala Mhigo entwined in their Autumn War. It's hard to want to support a nation that left of their own volition and didn't want to help its former allies (especially, as we have come to find, the Dragonsong War was of Ishgard's own creation and their leaders at the time knew it). Also, the reason the Ishgardian church is reeling is because their faith was based on their leaders' lies.

I wouldn't mind seeing former fleshed out NPCs again, but I equally don't want them to dilute the story and the main focus of each arch [read: expansion] simply for the sake of having X NPC there. Honestly, I think that's part of why Stormblood feels so lacking, especially when compared to Heavensward, is because of the constant splitting between the Far East and Ala Mhigo. We never really made a connection to Hien, Gotetsu or Lyse (we know "YDA") on the same level as someone like Aymeric, Haurchefant, Ysayle or Estinien (Yugiri is an exception as we've been in on-and-off contact with her since before the release of 3.0). It's the same way I feel about Thancred and Minfillia; Minfillia sat at the Waking Sands and called us to say go take care of that primal. Thancred was possessed for 2.x and 3.x had him running errands or being missing while 4.x had him spying on the Garleans until he was taken by whatever is going on with the Scions currently.

I feel like SE would have to meet some really high standards to revisit a lot of the things mentioned by the original poster that would still leave me feeling attached to characters like I was in 3.x. I don't really see that happening.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

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I'm kind of ://// on lorebooks exclusively, it feels like telling instead of showing. Not good form in stories, also flattens the world we can interact with in-game to a series of informed qualities.

I'm not talking enthralled beastmen either. Limsa Lominsa has some beastmen but Gridania and Ul'dah? Haven't seen 'em, and it's explicitly brought up that an exception is being made for Mamool Ja in the Blue Mage questline. Also, while the Amal'jaa of Zan'rak are totally enthralled I don't get the sense that the Kobolds, Ixal, or Sahagin are. I think it was mentioned that not all primals temper all the time? Some are more prone than others, like Lakshmi and Ifrit, and even with Leviathan my sense was that non-Sahagins were more likely to be made thralls.

I'm confused how some Gridanians being interested in foreign technology would be invasion. I'm not talking about Ul'dah invading Gridania against their will. I'm talking about there is technology in the world of Final Fantasy XIV beyond airships. It might be an interesting conflict to see different Gridanians having different opinions on what kind of lifestyle they want and how they'd like things to develop, especially with travel between city states.

I'm squinting at you a bit on the Ishgard points because it looks like you're trying to moralize this and are getting defensive. I'm talking about how different residents of Ishgard might feel, realistically. I'm not saying I personally would find them right. I'm saying it would be an interesting conflict that could continue fleshing out the world and society.

I disagree with you on Stormblood also tbh. I felt very invested in the characters and plot, although with less investment in Yugiri because I don't think as much concrete, specific, mundane characterization was shown for her. It also resonated with me having studied the impacts authoritarian regimes can have on people and what tactics they use, as well as looking at how various psychologies played out in different characters. If you want evidence to back things up I can do that for you. The thing is, I do not think you need to like things but there's a big difference between "I like/dislike X" and "X is well done/poorly done". They're not the same thing. You can like a story that is poorly done on a technical level, you can not like something well done on a technical level. I don't think there's any technical reason there would be a problem with the stuff I mentioned. If you personally just don't want it that's fine, but it's kind of weird you came to a thread where the spirit is "I hope XYZ happens what would you like to see" and went in the spirit of "I hope XYZ doesn't happen". We're both just fans with no power here. It's not a threat to you.

As one last bit, in terms of going back to "just an adventurer"? You missed me there. I'm talking about getting reminders to when things were just messes made by people. I don't think those have less value or interest than say, a massive primal, Allagan monstrosity, or Garlean warship. If anything it might ground things in further personal investment because you can see how everything effects the people in the game. Also, having these issues side-by-side grants a wider range of possible plots in this series than needing to come up with new world-ending threats bigger than Bahamut every new arc. You still have really high stakes but the tone shifts between antagonists.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that the statement Yoshi P made at one point about content like the Diadem (or was it PotD?) & ARR stuff (& how to make it "relevant again") is something they apply to lore we've "already learned": he said that they "don't focus on past content, they move on and learn for future content." I remember someone linking to it on a Eureka thread when someone was complaining about why they didn't just revamp Diadem to a 3.0 version instead of giving us Eureka.

They do a relatively decent job of tying the MSQ content into stuff you learned in the past, because they plan 5 years out, so when you learn something now that makes you go "oh!" later, that was intentional. But as for going back to revisit stuff like old races and things of that nature, I feel like they're more interested in giving us "new shinies to attract new players/keep our attention" than flesh out old content. Sometimes I even worry that Thavnair is going to be a case of "we already learned a little bit about it so people would be bored now, let's go some place new" which is sad, because I've always been interested in it.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe they've softened that stance - we've seen enemies from Lost City hard in the ShB trailer, which means a harken back to the war between Amdapor and Mhach, the War of the Magi (although given that this was the birth of a calamity and that's the whole focus of the MSQ, maybe it's a one off.)

But my gut says that whenever they feel people's interest waning, we'll just get something new, and they won't go back to the old stuff. Which is a shame.

I doubt it would be much of a stretch to shift Duskwights to being general Underdark residents beyond just Gelmorra. But, everyone knows nobody wants to spend time trapped in caves. So, getting to actually see any such underground cities would be unlikely. Besides, being so isolated, they would have the luxury of not really being involved or impacted by the goings on of the surface, further reducing the need or likelihood of ever interacting.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that the statement Yoshi P made at one point about content like the Diadem (or was it PotD?) & ARR stuff (& how to make it "relevant again") is something they apply to lore we've "already learned": he said that they "don't focus on past content, they move on and learn for future content." I remember someone linking to it on a Eureka thread when someone was complaining about why they didn't just revamp Diadem to a 3.0 version instead of giving us Eureka.

They do a relatively decent job of tying the MSQ content into stuff you learned in the past, because they plan 5 years out, so when you learn something now that makes you go "oh!" later, that was intentional. But as for going back to revisit stuff like old races and things of that nature, I feel like they're more interested in giving us "new shinies to attract new players/keep our attention" than flesh out old content. Sometimes I even worry that Thavnair is going to be a case of "we already learned a little bit about it so people would be bored now, let's go some place new" which is sad, because I've always been interested in it.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe they've softened that stance - we've seen enemies from Lost City hard in the ShB trailer, which means a harken back to the war between Amdapor and Mhach, the War of the Magi (although given that this was the birth of a calamity and that's the whole focus of the MSQ, maybe it's a one off.)

But my gut says that whenever they feel people's interest waning, we'll just get something new, and they won't go back to the old stuff. Which is a shame.

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This - they're usually always wanting to create new content. They'll almost never go back to old stuff unless they specifically make a push in that direction for some reason to make it fit into the current story.

They want you to buy the lore books if you're interested in older stuff.

I still wish each of the starter nations were given storylines like they were in FF 11. I'd even be happy with a series of sidequests or something.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

There aren't any major Duskwight settlements either, apart from the bandit camps we see in the Black Shroud. The Duskwights used to live in the underground city of Gelmorra, but after all the Wildwood Elezens and Midlander Hyur moved out of there, there weren't enough people left to maintain Gelmorra so it is just uninhabitable ruins today. Some few have moved into Gridania, while the rest try to make a living as bandits and brigands - which gives the Duskwights a bad reputation which in turn force them to live as bandits since few people will trust them enough to employ them.

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I find it very hard to believe that the entire population of Duskwights are currently either "in Gridania, or living as bandits".

It can be hard to tell the clans apart, since there's an overlap in appearances, but there are no obviously Duskwight NPCs in the city except for that one poor guy getting berated by some Wood Wailers outside the lancers' guild. (Though a few have popped up in quests - eg. the girl from the recent Valentione's event, and a Serpent officer you interact with briefly during MSQ. Also, the main antagonist from the lancer questline.)

Of course, given the general Gridanian attitude towards them, it makes sense that any living in the city are more likely to be of an "able to pass for Wildwood" appearance.

Lore is vague on where the current population of Duskwights are, and how they're living - although the bandits seem to be a minority.

The lorebook says:

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• Making their home in the deep forest caves and caverns for centuries, the Duskwight Elezen are the descendents of those who parted ways with their brethren after the founding of Gridania, choosing instead to remain in the stone-hewn chambers of Gelmorra or seek out new subterranean sanctums. Shunning the fetters of government and society, a great majority of the Duskwight keep a wide berth of the city-states, with some even resorting to brigandry as a means of survival. As a result, they are often looked upon with scorn by the citizens of Gridania, and those who have chosen to make their home in the city often suffer undue discrimination at the hands of their neighbours.
• They have long since eschewed contact with other races to pursue their own path in the shadowy seclusion of Eorzea's deep tunnels and caves.
• The customs of the subterranean city of Gelmorra are still practised by the Duskwights to this day, from architectural advances developed to stake out comfortable residences in dank, humid caves to mystical wards that serve to stave off the fury of the elementals.

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The problem is, everything we've seen of Gelmorra is in ruins, and the Duskwight archaeologists at Issom-Har are talking like that culture has been long lost to them.

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IRIELLE
...Hm? Oh, the ruins you can see down there are part of the ancient subterranean city known as Gelmorra.
For Duskwight Elezen such as ourselves, it represents a valuable and unexpected opportunity to learn more about the settlement where our ancestors once dwelled.

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ROLANDAIX
Ah, you are an adventurer, are you not? Tell me, have you any experience in the field of relic hunting? I am currently attempting to catalog all of the artifacts in this area, you see, but am finding the task rather more time-consuming than I had initially anticipated...
I am all but convinced that we stand in what was once Gelmorra's residential district. Alas, I have yet to recover a sufficiency of domestic objects to confirm my theory. Should you happen upon any such items while wandering the area, I would be most grateful if you'd bring them to me.
Back so soon? Are you quite certain you exercised the appropriate amount of care and delicacy in your search? These artifacts are hundreds of years─oh, never mind. Show me what you found.
Yes...these are most certainly examples of Gelmorran tableware. Judging by the shape and ornamentation, they appear to be cups of the kind once used to serve herbal infusions...or possibly vegetable broth. Perfect!
My work here is far from done, but this discovery brings me one tantalizing step closer to realizing my dream: the restoration of these ruins, and their reestablishment as a settlement for the Duskwight Elezen.
Gridanians have long perceived my people as outcasts and brigands, yet if we Duskwights can return a measure of prosperity to this fallen city, we would no longer need to resort to common theft or banditry in order to make ends meet. Imagine it!

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Buscarron also gives a brief explanation of them:

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BUSCARRON
I'll not have my patrons picking fights with each other over a bit of petty prejudice.
In case you didn't see, the bloke who caught the brunt of that outburst is a Duskwight Elezen. They're a people who shun cities to live in the wilds, making them no better than brigands in the eyes of many.
To be fair, the Duskwights can be an unruly lot, but they ain't so bad once you get to know them. And it don't seem right to bar a whole race of people from the Druthers for the misdeeds of a few.

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...and this is prettymuch the entirety of lore we have for them. It's quite frustrating and the facts don't really seem to line up.

One of my characters is a Duskwight, and I really don't know, literally, where he's supposed to be coming from. He isn't a bandit, and I'd like him to be a bit more linked to his culture than just "from Gridania", but there's no clear information about what that culture is. We have a few details but no big picture.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Ishgard is majority Wildwood

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More exactly, Ishgard is majority Ishgardian Elezen, a separate clan by lore, but represented in the game using predominantly Wildwood character models.

Ishgard and Gelmorra were separate populations of Elezen, and then the Gelmorrans split into Wildwood and Duskwight clans.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Thavnair would likely be the closest thing to something of a Plainsfolk homeland since they're originally islanders and Thavnair is an island nation. Then again, the flip side to that though is that all we've seen from there are Hyurs.

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That's a bit like saying Great Britain would be the closest thing to Hawaii because they're both islands...

But we do have more information about the Plainsfolk. Lalafells originated on the "south sea isles", apparently the Cieldales, and traveled to Eorzea from there. They founded the Fifth Astral Era city-states of Nym and Mhach, and the current clans are descended from those populations.

Plainsfolk are most common on Vylbrand, and still on their original islands as well.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I doubt it would be much of a stretch to shift Duskwights to being general Underdark residents beyond just Gelmorra. But, everyone knows nobody wants to spend time trapped in caves. So, getting to actually see any such underground cities would be unlikely. Besides, being so isolated, they would have the luxury of not really being involved or impacted by the goings on of the surface, further reducing the need or likelihood of ever interacting.

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The lorebook information actually makes it sound like this could be the case.

It would be pretty great if we could get to visit a place like that - really nice caves instead of dark and dingy ones. They can be amazingly beautiful.

I'm actually pretty curious about how we're going to be expanding moving forward. Except for some very minor nations like Thavnair, we don't really have much to explore anymore. We *should* be exploring Garlemald, which pretty much reveals the entire map we've been given.

There's still 2 more of the 1st Brood who have not been introduced into the story - our only source for even what their names are coming from the encyclopedia. And Meracydia itself being the "homeland" for Dragons. Dragons are aliens, so that's great. We know there are other intelligent lifeforms within our galaxy. Ala Dragons and Omega. So I *guess* we have reason to go say hi to these people. I want to say we don't have the means, but we apparently can get submarines running. So as long as we can break the atmosphere, we have the means. And apparently Dragons can break the atmosphere. So yeah. I guess we somehow have the means to travel through space. :facepalm:. Yoshi did say "maybe 7.0" for going to the moon... Great...

Then there's the New World. We don't actually have much left on our world to discover. >_>;

We haven't actually seen a full world map to know how big Meracydia and the New World are. They could be nearly as big as Aldenard for all we know and there definitely are other substantially sized continents judging from what we saw of Hydaelyn from outer space in that 3.4 cutscene on the moon.

Hingashi has also been left largely untouched outside of Kugane and could feasibly serve as a region of its own in the future.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The lorebook information actually makes it sound like this could be the case.

It would be pretty great if we could get to visit a place like that - really nice caves instead of dark and dingy ones. They can be amazingly beautiful.

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I mean, arguably, creating something of a Duskwight city shouldn't be a huge challenge. Just take something like Kugane and replace the skybox with cave background or something. Some might find it a stretch of disbelief to accept such a large cave as to house an entire city, but eh, it could still be presented well (c'mon, if we're not all already thinking it, just rip off some ideas from Menzoberranzan). Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

Every area presented thus far provides "settlements" and such in surroundings, with scattered aetherytes around for our convenience. But I do struggle a bit to imagine what they could do for that in the Underdark. Which leaves you with potentially something like Kugane, a grand city in a location (Hingashi) that you don't really get to explore.

In summation, while I'm sure there may be solutions to these problems, personal opinion is presently that a Duskwight city/civilization seems perfectly feasible, it's justifying the surroundings (or lack thereof) that provides a greater stumbling block.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

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I actually think there's a ton of potential with an underdark type setting, some even foreshadowed a bit! Substitute plants with insane fungus/mushroom/etc. forests (I remember reading that Duskwight cuisines uses mushrooms a lot IIRC?), use fauna that has insane lack of pigment and/or eyes similar to cave fish, geode aesthetics, bioluminescent lighting potentially for rule of fantasy, underground lakes and rivers, volcanic activity, could go on! And architecturally could do so much with intricate stonework and building cities into the surrounding caverns. Maybe since there's similar French influence could draw from Rococo vibes or something. Fun juxtaposition between the darkness and spookiness of caves and something very delicate and beautiful.

I'm sure there are folks who wouldn't be interested in this kind of take, but idk I'd love to see something that really experimented and pushed the concept.

Also Hell's Lid is technically subterranean area precedent, so logistically would be doable in Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

More exactly, Ishgard is majority Ishgardian Elezen, a separate clan by lore, but represented in the game using predominantly Wildwood character models.

Ishgard and Gelmorra were separate populations of Elezen, and then the Gelmorrans split into Wildwood and Duskwight clans.

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Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

IIRC that pirate dude who takes WoL to Doma was Ishgardian Duskwight and (while I might be incorrect) I thought there were wiki listings categorizing a bunch of Ishgardians as Wildwood Elezen? I read it as there are different subcultures between various groups of Wildwood Elezen similar to how ex. a Doman Midlander and an Ul'dahn Midlander might be the same subrace but have dramatically different cultures and ethnic features. Also how Yanxian Hellsguard seem to have different cultures from Eorzean Hellsguard while still both being Hellsguard.

Don't mean any of this as some kind of "gotcha", honestly confused here lol. If you don't mind, would you mind clarifying the way this breaks down for you a bit? Like are you categorizing Ishgardian Elezen as a third subrace similar to how Gosetsu is a third subrace of Roegadyn separate from Hellsguard or Seawolves?

I'm sure someone else will come along with a bigger better explanation, but as I understood it, basically Ishgard was founded (and isolated itself?) so long ago that the whole subrace thing simply doesn't entirely apply to them.

Re: cave setting, you're entirely right, there's plenty to work with. But, ultimately (I think) they'd still need to make it a point to be clear that the setting in an underground cave/tunnel system, sprawling though it may be. It can be made plenty engaging or visually interesting, but if the area is still big wide open spaces (because we gotta have our flying) and only made "underground" by using impossibly high ceilings, it'd still fall short of, at least, my own personal expectations.
Like I said, the idea of the city sounds entirely possible, with all the expected beautification. But as an entire region, with mobs and outlying settlements and outposts and everything that comes with new areas, I'd foresee a greater challenge. Not impossible, but, they may be better served by making such a place only the city that you visit for quest reasons and less an whole new civilization to explore.

Although, the more I think about it, even the cities in this game feel a little on the small/cramped side, from a player's perspective. Maybe there would be cause/reason enough to divide the entire concept into different/smaller chunks, with the "region" being the entire city cavern itself, big enough to explore all the fun corners.

Idk. I'm certainly biased on this point. Definitely read too many drow novels, so I'd have more than a few high expectations.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

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The Wildwood/Duskwight division is a strictly Gridanian/Black Shroud thing.
Due to the Elementals not liking people messing with their forest, it used to be the case that nearly everyone who lived in the Black Shroud resided in the underground city of Gelmorra. Eventually they learned to communicate with the Elementals and most moved above ground and founded Gridania. Some of the Elezen wanted to stay in Gelmorra though - they became the Duskwights, while those who created Gridania became the Wildwood.
Before they moved out of Gelmorra the Duskwight/Wildwood split simply did not exist.

By the time Gridania was created and Gelmorra mostly abandoned, the city of Ishgard had already existed for a good while, with plenty of Elezen living there who hadn't gone through the same split that happend in Gridania.

It is similar with the Roegadyn in the Far East. They are a different group from the Seawolves (who originated up in the north before moving to Limsa Lominsa) and from the Hellsguard (who are native to mountain villages around Gyr Abania)

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

We haven't actually seen a full world map to know how big Meracydia and the New World are. They could be nearly as big as Aldenard for all we know and there definitely are other substantially sized continents judging from what we saw of Hydaelyn from outer space in that 3.4 cutscene on the moon.

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It's likely they're.... well, continent-sized!

Given the writers' general reliance on real-world geography, and what we know of cultures and plants noted to originate from those places, we can judge that the New World is clearly at least North America, possibly both the Americas, and Meracydia may be a detached Africa. (Or possibly the half of it that isn't melded into southern Aldenard.)

There's also likely to be an Australia-equivalent out there somewhere. Does anyone here have the Koala Joey and/or Frilled Dragon minions? Do the descriptions say anything about where they're from?

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I mean, arguably, creating something of a Duskwight city shouldn't be a huge challenge. Just take something like Kugane and replace the skybox with cave background or something. Some might find it a stretch of disbelief to accept such a large cave as to house an entire city, but eh, it could still be presented well (c'mon, if we're not all already thinking it, just rip off some ideas from Menzoberranzan). Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

Every area presented thus far provides "settlements" and such in surroundings, with scattered aetherytes around for our convenience. But I do struggle a bit to imagine what they could do for that in the Underdark. Which leaves you with potentially something like Kugane, a grand city in a location (Hingashi) that you don't really get to explore.

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I think it could be quite doable, especially if you just had the city itself being underground, and surrounding areas outside. Could do some interesting landscapes with potholes and arches. Though I'd like to see a full cave environment too.

For the city itself, larger caverns (possibly with natural light coming in, or lit by crystals) would operate as communal areas, while smaller tunnels and dead-ends would function as "buildings" - walled off at their entrance and used as individual houses or businesses.

For a larger zone set underground, it would definitely need some wider areas where people can move freely. Perhaps some paths that are rather winding on foot, but once you can access flight it "cuts the knot" and you can travel a lot more easily.

Dzemael Darkhold is actually a decent example of what it could be like - if you took away the "dungeon crawling with monsters" thing, lit it more nicely, made it a bit more connected... there are large open spaces and an underground river that flows through it. If you go down a side passage near the start you can look out across a gap to a waterfall, and that's actually coming from the area where you fight the Ahriman boss.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I actually think there's a ton of potential with an underdark type setting, some even foreshadowed a bit! Substitute plants with insane fungus/mushroom/etc. forests (I remember reading that Duskwight cuisines uses mushrooms a lot IIRC?), use fauna that has insane lack of pigment and/or eyes similar to cave fish, geode aesthetics, bioluminescent lighting potentially for rule of fantasy, underground lakes and rivers, volcanic activity, could go on! And architecturally could do so much with intricate stonework and building cities into the surrounding caverns. Maybe since there's similar French influence could draw from Rococo vibes or something. Fun juxtaposition between the darkness and spookiness of caves and something very delicate and beautiful.

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Definitely would like to see something like this!

On your side note about Duskwight cuisine, the lorebook says they use a lot of Mun-Tuy beans, which apparently don't need sunlight. (Not sure if they're meant to be based on anything; the "soy sauce" item text says it's similar to Mun-Tuy sauce but that's the closest we get. Probably completely fictional.) No mention of mushrooms, but they'd definitely be a logical choice as well.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

IIRC that pirate dude who takes WoL to Doma was Ishgardian Duskwight and (while I might be incorrect) I thought there were wiki listings categorizing a bunch of Ishgardians as Wildwood Elezen? I read it as there are different subcultures between various groups of Wildwood Elezen similar to how ex. a Doman Midlander and an Ul'dahn Midlander might be the same subrace but have dramatically different cultures and ethnic features. Also how Yanxian Hellsguard seem to have different cultures from Eorzean Hellsguard while still both being Hellsguard.

Don't mean any of this as some kind of "gotcha", honestly confused here lol. If you don't mind, would you mind clarifying the way this breaks down for you a bit? Like are you categorizing Ishgardian Elezen as a third subrace similar to how Gosetsu is a third subrace of Roegadyn separate from Hellsguard or Seawolves?

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Yes, Ishgardians are a third sub-race of Elezen. They just don't have unique models.

Basically there are two elements to races in this game: there are the programmed character models, defined as specific races, that both player-characters and the majority of NPCs are built from - but also a lore aspect which may or may not line up with that programmed race.

At a programming level, there are only Wildwood and Duskwight Elezen. Ishgardian Elezen are a separate clan according to lore, but there's no need to create a new programmed race for them - they use Wildwood (and occasionally Duskwight) character models, but they do not fall within the actual cultural group that is Wildwood Elezen, ie. descendants of Gelmorra, a separate nation that existed alongside Ishgard.

I wouldn't put any weight on information from the wiki - it's fan-written and dependent on individual interpretation. That said, the lorebook itself is a bit wobbly on sometimes calling Ishgardian characters "Wildwood", specifically in the character 'stats' given for job quest NPCs. But in other places it's clear the terms are used separately - the best example being the racial demographics for each city. Gridania's population is (among others) 30% Wildwood Elezen and 10% Duskwight Elezen, while Ishgard is 70% Ishgardian Elezen. Also, full-prose character profiles usually mention their clan, and Ishgardians are either noted as such or just not mentioned - never labeled as Wildwood or Duskwight, as far as I can see.

There are a few Ishgardian characters that I know have Duskwight models from looking at the character data - Ysayle, Grinnaux de Dzemael (but not his grandfather, who we meet in another quest), Edmont (but not his sons), Jandelaine and his twin brother from one of the Postmoogle quests. I'm guessing it's more based on what works for individual character design, rather than any lore-intent behind it. Ysayle has that rather icy skintone, and the others use Duskwight-specific scars or markings.
Edmont is an odd one though, as he has a customised face and isn't designed with any Duskwight-specific features or colouring - although I did realise his face isn't actually unique but is modified from one of the Au Ra faces, of all things... it's pretty unmistakeable once you can see it. His moustache is part of the Au Ra face build, so maybe the colour of it is still affected by the "Clan A/Clan B" switch and needs to be set to 'Xaela' so it's black. Or maybe I'm just way off the mark and there's no real reason for it.

Re. "that pirate dude", Carvallain, he's an interesting one - but first I have to back up a few steps with a kinda-sorta-spoiler (a missable rather than 'future' plot point, which you might not have picked up on). If you join up the right dots, you can work out he's actually the long-lost son of the Count de Durendaire, who was allegedly lost at sea twenty years ago when pirates attacked the ship. (Once you are aware of that, it makes a lot of interactions with him more amusing. Tataru basically blackmailed him into taking us to Kugane by threatening to let the count know what really happened to him!)

So. House Durendaire. That distinct colouration seems to be a family trait - there's the astrologian guildmaster Jannequinard, and we see the count briefly at the end of Dragonsong. Plus their distant ancestor, who we see in the cutscene of Haldrath's knights after the Aery.

I nearly brought them up as an example in my last post, because despite their rather Duskwight-ish appearance, they're all Wildwood character models - and it's evidently an appearance trait that pre-dates both Ishgard and Gelmorra (but isn't very common in the Ishgardian population). So suppose that kind of trait gets stronger in one part of the population, particularly in that group living in the caves - perhaps it gives them some kind of advantage there.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

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!!! Eeeeey another drow fan! :D I haven't gotten to read novels for 'em (if you have any recs please let me know!) but I have done DnD research into lore using youtube vids, wikis, and so on. Find them very interesting!

On cave settings, do you think it would help somewhat to have the area surrounding the city not 100% underground/with varying depths? City itself is totally subterranean but in terms of landscape for enemy encounters you can have spots closer to the surface where rain and sunlight filter through between patches of stone occasionally, with a wider scope. Other areas going deeper could then be more claustrophobic (think similar to Tam Tara Deepcroft or Dzemael Darkhold, parts are wider but other parts get very restrictive). XD I know people love the flying mounts and all, but tbh SE could just say that as you go deeper and hit areas farther from the surface with its air currents you lose that. If there are extensive under water areas you could still use that "underwater flying" swim deal going from place to place for player convenience. It is technically one less feature for devs to need to implement/a bit less work if they wanted to do it.

Dividing into smaller chunks seems like it could potentially work too depending. Could do either a grand civilization approach or could show a collection of settlements similar to the Xaela in a way.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I'm sure someone else will come along with a bigger better explanation, but as I understood it, basically Ishgard was founded (and isolated itself?) so long ago that the whole subrace thing simply doesn't entirely apply to them.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Snipped for length

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Snipped for length

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Thank you guys so much for explaining this omg. I am a bit ??? on Hellsguard in Doma (character model-wise), and at this point am wondering if they’re technically supposed to be a separate subrace from both Gosetsu and Eorzean Hellsguard but without model differentiation to make four known subraces there or if it’s supposed to be the same as Gosetsu but SE didn’t make the models? XD Here I was figuring player options in character creator were largely what was just available in-world with a few exceptions, this is a funny reveal for me.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On your side note about Duskwight cuisine, the lorebook says they use a lot of Mun-Tuy beans, which apparently don't need sunlight.

[…]

Edmont is an odd one though, as he has a customised face and isn't designed with any Duskwight-specific features or colouring - although I did realise his face isn't actually unique but is modified from one of the Au Ra faces, of all things... it's pretty unmistakeable once you can see it. His moustache is part of the Au Ra face build, so maybe the colour of it is still affected by the "Clan A/Clan B" switch and needs to be set to 'Xaela' so it's black. Or maybe I'm just way off the mark and there's no real reason for it.

[…]

Re. "that pirate dude", Carvallain, he's an interesting one - but first I have to back up a few steps with a kinda-sorta-spoiler (a missable rather than 'future' plot point, which you might not have picked up on). If you join up the right dots, you can work out he's actually the long-lost son of the Count de Durendaire, who was allegedly lost at sea twenty years ago when pirates attacked the ship. (Once you are aware of that, it makes a lot of interactions with him more amusing. Tataru basically blackmailed him into taking us to Kugane by threatening to let the count know what really happened to him!)

[…]

So. House Durendaire. That distinct colouration seems to be a family trait - there's the astrologian guildmaster Jannequinard, and we see the count briefly at the end of Dragonsong. Plus their distant ancestor, who we see in the cutscene of Haldrath's knights after the Aery.

I nearly brought them up as an example in my last post, because despite their rather Duskwight-ish appearance, they're all Wildwood character models - and it's evidently an appearance trait that pre-dates both Ishgard and Gelmorra (but isn't very common in the Ishgardian population). So suppose that kind of trait gets stronger in one part of the population, particularly in that group living in the caves - perhaps it gives them some kind of advantage there.

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Whoop, thank you for clarifying on the beans! Misremembered there haha. Also omg yeah now that I think of it you’re right on about Edmont using Xaela design. I thought his face looked familiar but couldn’t place it. I think it was just for aesthetics and all (suspect you were looking from that angle too) but pfff imagine if it turned out Haurchefant’s whole family had a little Au Ra heritage mixed in.

Lol I did hear about Carvallain before that scene! Still funny though and appreciate the recap. :D

That is really interesting on House Durendaire though. It makes me wonder a bit about Elezen history/evolution some and if there’s still lore/civilizatons that the devs haven’t revealed yet.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's likely they're.... well, continent-sized!

Given the writers' general reliance on real-world geography, and what we know of cultures and plants noted to originate from those places, we can judge that the New World is clearly at least North America, possibly both the Americas, and Meracydia may be a detached Africa. (Or possibly the half of it that isn't melded into southern Aldenard.)

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Hydaelyn's Africa is actually Eorzea itself, or at least, very loosely anyway (Aldernard's shape is a close match for Africa, right down to Vylbrand being a mirror-flipped Madadasgar), and that it was, in 1.0 anyway, mostly a 'wild frontier' between a few pockets of civilization (this is why Eorzea to this day is still regarded as 'savage' by the European-stand-in Garleans, besides obviously parroting how ancient Rome regarded other nations other than themselves as barbarians) - albeit one where Europe has detached itself completely from Africa other than Greece and relocated to the other side of the planet and the Middle East is now an isolated island in the middle of the ocean).

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Originally Posted by Iscah

There's also likely to be an Australia-equivalent out there somewhere. Does anyone here have the Koala Joey and/or Frilled Dragon minions? Do the descriptions say anything about where they're from?

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For all intents and purposes from what we do know of Meracydia it appears to actually be Hydaelyn's Terra Australis Incognita - mysterious island continent in the far south of the planet that is a inhospitable wasteland populated by dangerous wildlife, although Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania of all places also shares some elements with modern Australia - equally hostile environment with it's inhabitants earning a reputation for being tough-as-nails and gave rise to more than a few talented soldiers - even it's national anthem 'The Measure of His Reach' shares musical (but not lyrical) similarities with Australia's national anthem. ;) (No surprises then that as an Australian myself I had Enki be Ala Mhigan by birth ;)).

I can confirm the koala joey minion at least says nothing about Meracydia (or even where on Hydaelyn it comes from for that matter) - it's description in the minion guide is just an extended joke about drop bears. ;)

The world has a lot of poential as is in terms of the lore. I’m annoyed we are going to Ilsabard so early since we still haven’t been to Thavnair, Radz-at-hanz or Bascially the entire island of Koshu where the rest of Hingashi lays and the remainder of Othard since there’s a unexplored peninsula to the north and Naxia to the south

Fun fact I just realized Hein is trying to unite Othard with Dalmasca and Naxia blessings but go denied by Hingashi’s Higher ups in Bukyo as well as Shisui.

There’s a giant covered portion of islabard to the south right next to Naxia, that may be Dalmasca and I wouldn’t be surprised if this may be our course of travel if something happened in Gyr Albania

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Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork

Yoshi did say "maybe 7.0" for going to the moon... Great...

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This is delayed, and while I know you were unenthusiastic about this bit my god I have been wanting Lunarians and seeing this I'm just going !!!!!

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I am a bit ??? on Hellsguard in Doma (character model-wise), and at this point am wondering if they’re technically supposed to be a separate subrace from both Gosetsu and Eorzean Hellsguard but without model differentiation to make four known subraces there or if it’s supposed to be the same as Gosetsu but SE didn’t make the models? XD Here I was figuring player options in character creator were largely what was just available in-world with a few exceptions, this is a funny reveal for me.

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The Doman 'Hellsguard' are presumably a separate subrace, though I figure it's possible they share ancestry - perhaps having spread along the northern mountains until they were too far apart to maintain a single culture, and this eastern group broke away and merged into non-race-specific Doman culture instead.

Gosetsu definitely complicates things though - introducing him as a visibly separate subrace and then using nothing but standard Hellsguard models for other Far Eastern Roegadyn seems like a strange decision. Doubly so as it would be quite viable for them to create a complete (non-playable) "Gosetsu's clan" using Sea Wolf models and customised skintones. There's precedent for this in the game already - specifically Curious Gorge from the WAR questline, who is canonically a Hellsguard but is programmed as a Sea Wolf NPC with an off-the-chart skintone, thus his lacking the usual Hellsguard 'beast nose'.

Though the stranger decision was having Far Eastern Roegadyn at all, or at least so prominently, while not giving Raen Au Ra a bigger role.

(If nothing else, that Confederate leader guy would have worked well as a Raen character. I've also seen someone suggest that Hien could have been Raen rather than Hyuran, which would have been interesting.)

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Also omg yeah now that I think of it you’re right on about Edmont using Xaela design. I thought his face looked familiar but couldn’t place it. I think it was just for aesthetics and all (suspect you were looking from that angle too) but pfff imagine if it turned out Haurchefant’s whole family had a little Au Ra heritage mixed in.

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I had the same thought pattern - "I'm sure it's just reusing the character model, but what if they actually had some Au Ra heritage...?"

That would go down really well in Ishgard, I'm sure. Heavens help the poor child who happens to redevelop ancestral Au Ra traits that the family didn't even know existed.

...let's just go with "recycled character model", okay?


I have to wonder which one came first though, or if the one model was designed with both purposes from the start. They were both being implemented at the same time of course. Clever double-use of assets anyway.


This does also remind me that a while back someone from my FC was saying that Aymeric had an Au Ra-ish face? Which I didn't get at the time, and still can't really see, but I guess it's possible in the same way. It would probably be face 3 with the 'hammerhead shark' horns, if it is indeed the same sort of situation.

(EDIT: Played around with Au Ra designs and... maybe. Not the same definite "yes that's him!" recognition I got when setting the other one to resemble Edmont, but it's in the general zone of looking similar. Might be a matter of finding the right settings, or could just be a result of the same artist making both characters.)

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Lol I did hear about Carvallain before that scene! Still funny though and appreciate the recap. :D

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Funny thing with that - I figured it out myself, but I'd sailed past a number of hints without picking up on them, only to catch on by noticing the family resemblance! Combined with remembering that the AST quest had alluded to a missing family member, anyway.

I'm greatly looking forward to whatever resolution we eventually get to this. At least I hope there's a resolution coming - and some more dancing around it in the meanwhile. All sorts of potential interesting interactions.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

That is really interesting on House Durendaire though. It makes me wonder a bit about Elezen history/evolution some and if there’s still lore/civilizatons that the devs haven’t revealed yet.

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There's definitely one more potential Elezen civilisation in Ilsabard - using Duskwight models, interestingly enough, though we'll have to wait and see if they're actually linked or not.

The destroyed rebel camp we briefly see at the end of 4.4 seems to have a number of Duskwights there, and one of Shadowhunter's companions is also a Duskwight.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Hydaelyn's Africa is actually Eorzea itself, or at least, very loosely anyway (Aldernard's shape is a close match for Africa, right down to Vylbrand being a mirror-flipped Madadasgar), and that it was, in 1.0 anyway, mostly a 'wild frontier' between a few pockets of civilization (this is why Eorzea to this day is still regarded as 'savage' by the European-stand-in Garleans, besides obviously parroting how ancient Rome regarded other nations other than themselves as barbarians) - albeit one where Europe has detached itself completely from Africa other than Greece and relocated to the other side of the planet and the Middle East is now an isolated island in the middle of the ocean).

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I've seen this brought up before, and I disagree. The only real support for it is the shape of the continent, which I really don't see as that close - and equating Vylbrand to Madagascar is particularly stretching too far. (It's not the same shape, it's much larger relative to the continent, and it's not in the right place.)

I actually appreciate that you can't simply look on a world map and point out the shape of Eorzea on it. Othard is far too traced from a map of Asia, mountain chains and all - except for the strange decision to cut off Russia entirely (and presumably slide it over into Ilsabard), which is why its northern coast has an odd shape and that very right-angled peninsula. It's traced from a river course, not a coastline.

Eorzea's cultures are clearly inspired by Europe, not Africa. Gridania's fairytale forests, Ul'dah's Byzantine architecture, Ishgard's medieval European architecture, dragons named after Norse mythological figures.

The climate also generally matches Europe's placement in the northern-hemisphere temperate zone, stretching into arctic north and desert south, rather than Africa's location across the tropical equator with desert on either side. (Vylbrand's patches of tropical jungle are a puzzle, and one that bothers me regardless of whether it's supposed to be equivalent to anything. It literally doesn't line up with the climate of Aldenard. Perhaps it's due to the volcano, or an ocean current warming up the area? I'm only running off high school geography lessons here, so I don't know if there's a realistic explanation for such a thing.)

The little we know of Meracydia, besides its unplaceably fantastic elements of dragons and such, is that the plants aloe and sesame originate from there. In reality both are native to Africa, not Australia.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

For all intents and purposes from what we do know of Meracydia it appears to actually be Hydaelyn's Terra Australis Incognita - mysterious island continent in the far south of the planet that is a inhospitable wasteland populated by dangerous wildlife, although Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania of all places also shares some elements with modern Australia - equally hostile environment with it's inhabitants earning a reputation for being tough-as-nails and gave rise to more than a few talented soldiers - even it's national anthem 'The Measure of His Reach' shares musical (but not lyrical) similarities with Australia's national anthem. ;) (No surprises then that as an Australian myself I had Enki be Ala Mhigan by birth ;)).

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I'm also Australian, and I disagree about Gyr Abania having Australian elements. It's too much of a stretch, just on the "reputation" of its people - you could apply that to all sorts of places, I'm sure.

As for the anthem... sure it sounds a bit like ours, but I don't know any others. Is it really "like ours" or is it just the sort of music used for an anthem? Would someone from another country perceive it as similar to their anthem?


Meracydia could have Australian elements as well, but we haven't seen any direct signs of it (other than a potential "frilled dragon" -> Meracydian dragon connection).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I can confirm the koala joey minion at least says nothing about Meracydia (or even where on Hydaelyn it comes from for that matter) - it's description in the minion guide is just an extended joke about drop bears. ;)

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Ahaha, well played, lore team.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

There’s a giant covered portion of Ilsabard to the south right next to Nagxia, that may be Dalmasca and I wouldn’t be surprised if this may be our course of travel if something happened in Gyr Abania

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Dalmasca is shown on the new section of the map recently revealed during the Ivalice raids.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Thavnair would likely be the closest thing to something of a Plainsfolk homeland since they're originally islanders and Thavnair is an island nation. Then again, the flip side to that though is that all we've seen from there are Hyurs.

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Wait a minute! Are they plainsfolk or islandfolk? I want to know whether I get White or Blue mana when I sacrifice them! D: