Can we remove Tank Stance?

Been in a few parties over the last few days where tanks weren't using their tank stance, were loosing hate, and dying without the damage resistance.

Could we just remove the stance and give them the damage resistance and enmity generation innately?

If they did that they would nerf tanks damage to match healers. Thus pushing some players to not play tank. Enmity is a group effort not just the tank. I do expect enmity generation to be buffed in 5.0 though.

Eh. Just give them the damage. Everyone wants to be a DPS now a days anyway.

Me myself I don't like to play tanks not because of the damage but because of the "lead" of the party thing.

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Originally Posted by Derio

If they did that they would nerf tanks damage to match healers. Thus pushing some players to not play tank. Enmity is a group effort not just the tank. I do expect enmity generation to be buffed in 5.0 though.

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Not to mention, removing tank stances would require reworks, as some skills require you to be in a particular stance to use them.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Eh. Just give them the damage. Everyone wants to be a DPS now a days anyway.

Me myself I don't like to play tanks not because of the damage but because of the "lead" of the party thing.

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I hate the "everyone" argument. Speak for yourself. As a tank I'm more concerned on properly keeping the aggro than on doing some more numbers. My dps is ok, but if I'm a tank, I focus on tanking. And what's with the "lead" thing? It's better to have a tank pulling rather than the DPS doing it and wiping with 2 hits.

Tanks eating dirt even with a healer stapled to them is due to lack of CD use. As for losing aggro, its a giant circus act of teamwork that goes into that for a proper run. The tank can only control their own enmity (minus shirk, but that has it's own purpose). Everyone with access to any sort of enmity reducing skill should use them when appropriate. Ninja has Shadewalker to feed enmity to the tank, and diversion to use after shadewalker is used up. Casters have Lucid Dreaming to out right cut enmity in half, but also have diversion and should be using it on pull especially. Bards have tactician and refresh that cut current enmity in half, you get the idea.

As far as tank stance damage resistance, it is only 20% for pld and drk, which is equal to Rampart. Warriors don't even get a damage resistance with their stance, but instead of 25% increase to their health pool, and 20% increased healing received. Tank stance is only typically used on trash pulls in dungeons, and on the boss pull. I don't tank in savage so I personally can't speak much on use in there but its all about cooldown use and what they and the group can handle. If I am wrong on anything I said, please let me know.

People messing up and refusing to do their job properly does not mean there's something inherently wrong with how the job is implemented. I also don't think jobs should be designed around the lowest common denominator who either cannot play their class or outright refuse to do so.

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Originally Posted by Rosentretter

I hate the "everyone" argument. Speak for yourself. As a tank I'm more concerned on properly keeping the aggro than on doing some more numbers. My dps is ok, but if I'm a tank, I focus on tanking. And what's with the "lead" thing? It's better to have a tank pulling rather than the DPS doing it and wiping with 2 hits.

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Tanks lead the party. I'm saying that's why I don't like playing them. They decide the pace of the run. In dungeons anyway. And with the "pull everything" mentality I'm not comfortable trying to keep hate on 8+ mobs. Thus I don't like playing tank. I also don't like my tanks not keeping hate or dying to a tank buster cause they refuse to use tank stance cause they don't want to impact their precious DPS.

Yeah, they're bad.

If they can't juggle the methodology behind doing it and fail at doing it, it's user error.

We don't need to redesign the class 'cuz some people are bad at it. It'd be like saying "can all DPS just have the same rotation to do DPS, because this one time I had a 900 DPS BLM in my group and..."

Perhaps I just needed to vent. Or maybe I should just suck it up and play tank instead lol. If Gunblade job is a tank I might do it... but I doubt it lol.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Perhaps I just needed to vent. Or maybe I should just suck it up and play tank instead lol. If Gunblade job is a tank I might do it... but I doubt it lol.

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Tanking is a lot easier than it looks. Even using the AOE moves (Flash/Overpower/Unleashed) 2 or 3 times while pulling big is sufficient enough to hold hate, if decently geared. And in boss fights, there are more than enough tools to comfortably tank most fights outside of tank stance after the opener. Personally, I'd actually try tanking on a serious note and do it for a while before assigning blame or suggesting reworks to the job.

If they keep aggro and survive everything thrown at them without needing Cure 2/Benefic 2/Adloquium spam, it's not really an issue...

But if they're constantly dropping aggro and dying, just "kindly remind" them to use their tank stance.

I would like to see tanks have more varied interpretations of tank stance... but I also think that's a very scary task in terms of trying to get the balance and flow right for all the fights (such that one tank doesn't get shunned more than already may happen). That way they don't feel as similar (but of course that increases the chance that there will be a more exaggerated flavor of the month/raid/patch cycle).

For shits and giggles how busted would it be if tanks stance only gated abilities and each stance had the benefits baked into the class itself. Would be funny to see though.

The tanks are fine w/ DPS and Tank stance. The problem is the healer and DPS not using their enmity reduction utilities to make sure they don't steal hate from the tanks. It's all there for people to see. The damage resistance, again the DPS and healers have utilities to reduce dmg for the tanks, but the tanks have to also use their own. A tank can survive in DPS stance throughout the fight....except if they don't use awareness, rampart for example and get hit by a crit, high dmg tank buster.

Looking at it from the duality point of view, all tanks have both, tank and damage stance, equally available after leveling. I agree with people this doesn't need change but if there was any change I might endorse the tank stance becoming the "normal without stance" but giving them damage stance that bridges the gap to their current damage stance. Sort of like DRK is now but swapped. However you'd still have the case of tanks being in damage stance all the time so it wouldn't chance that much.

I hope not, stance dancing is actually fun for some people. I was really sad when they changed Cleric Stance to a useless cool down.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

and dying without the damage resistance.

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How do you do this?


Even in Savage I don't die without tank stance, Reprisal & Rampart are the only 2 things I need on the most tankbusts.
How do you loose enmity in this day & age where you have access to Shirk?
Even in 4-man groups I tank dungeons in DPS stance, I don't die and don't loose enmity.


I guess I must be playing wrong.

Unfortunately nothing can stop bad tanks from being bad. There is a time and place to stance dance as a tank, and being at min ilvl for a dungeon with a dps in 390+ is not one of them unless you really know what you are doing. There's nothing wrong with tank stances, it's just bad under geared tanks thinking they can do what 390+ tanks do.

Nope, we cannot remove it because the fewer in number good tanks that do know how and when to use it outweigh all of bad ones put together. When I get fed up with DF tanks, I just do it meself.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

I hope not, stance dancing is actually fun for some people. I was really sad when they changed Cleric Stance to a useless cool down.

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Is it really fun, or do we just say so because it's all we know? I was also sad when I heard they were changing Cleric Stance, but the reality is that it's been a year and half now I honestly haven't missed the stance dance at all. I'm just as happy without it.


That said, I don't really mind the concept of tank stances. I just with they were implemented better. When the tank stance is the objectively wrong choice for tanking most of the time, something has gone very wrong in the design process.

I wouldn't mind losing the stances, as long as there isn't a nerf to tank damage to compensate for a passive always on defensive boost. I think the devs are a bit too stubborn with their thinking at times, which gets in the way of certain jobs/classes being more fun than they are currently.

With a bit of a rework, DRK could have been the perfect candidate for removing tank stance.
How? Via Dark Arts.

Basically, make Grit a trait, and permanent.
Buff up their HP.
Make Dark Arts consume HP.

Then they trade ‘defence’ via HP consumption, for damage via Dark Arts potencies.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

That said, I don't really mind the concept of tank stances. I just with they were implemented better. When the tank stance is the objectively wrong choice for tanking most of the time, something has gone very wrong in the design process.

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Tank stances aren't necessarily not working, it's the fight mechanics that go against it. Too much focus on DPS checks and not enough punishing tank busters or even just sustained damage, that can't just be taken head on with a decent healer.
The problem is that once you reach the healing and defense benchmarks all that's left is DPS, and the fights recognise this and push your DPS.

I would like to see tank stances on DRK, PLD gone but i do not want to make enmity a guaranteed stat for tanks like in WoW.
Tanks instead should have more options to control it over and make it a little more interesting to manage.

Dark arts could have enmity bonus for the skill and give DRK another GCD combo maybe with damage of a soul eater but with deffensive buff and deffensive enemy debuff in the second part of the combo (or just amor stats steal all together), paladin could use some extra 2 offensive cooldowns for enmity.

Innate enmity generation does not work, due to any content where there is more than 1 tank. We all know how bad a 24-man can get when tanks are fighting each other for enmity and the boss keeps spinning around or running throughout the arena. And in Savage, tank busters and swaps could cause huge problems when hate unexpectedly shifts to the off tank because both tanks are defaultly building equal threat.

I'll tell you what we really don't need: DPS stance. While there are definitely times a tank would not want to be in tank stance, there is never a time where a tank would want to be in no stance. If they're taking off tank stance, they're going to go into DPS stance, guaranteed. If DPS stance is always the default state, then why waste a button on it? There is absolutely no reason why Sword Oath and Deliverance shouldn't be Passive Traits. (Darkside is obviously a bit of a different beast.)

I'd be fine with seeing it gone and reworks done.

Currently the dps penalty in tank stance is way too huge. You literally can't leave tank stance on in Extreme upwards. Try it on the SSS dummies, you actually can't beat them in tank stance. This leads to the meta of turning it off the second you can.

On the flipside, the emnity generated by tank stance is massive. You can turn it on in dungeons, do only your dps rotation and things just stick to you. The only time you really manage emnity is out of tank stance.

Also I don't like the fact that tanks are all about a 1-4-5 emnity combo then 1-2-3 for dps and the occasional provoke or cd at set times. Tank is one class they could stray away from the standard 1-2-3 and try a more reaction-based priority system where we're actively managing resources to mitigate damage for the fight and trying to stay alive. Bosses could hit harder then too. Make it more engaging.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Been in a few parties over the last few days where tanks weren't using their tank stance, were loosing hate, and dying without the damage resistance.

Could we just remove the stance and give them the damage resistance and enmity generation innately?

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Oh I sure hope they get rid of it in 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

I'll tell you what we really don't need: DPS stance. While there are definitely times a tank would not want to be in tank stance, there is never a time where a tank would want to be in no stance. If they're taking off tank stance, they're going to go into DPS stance, guaranteed. If DPS stance is always the default state, then why waste a button on it? There is absolutely no reason why Sword Oath and Deliverance shouldn't be Passive Traits. (Darkside is obviously a bit of a different beast.)

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Agreed. Sword Oath/Deliverance should a trait, and turning on Shield Oath/Defiance should just disable it temporarily.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Agreed. Sword Oath/Deliverance should a trait, and turning on Shield Oath/Defiance should just disable it temporarily.

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Thematically I've always thought that Paladin should always be under oath, so I've wanted this for a while just for theme even (although it is also QoL).

Tank stances should be reworked or removed but not for the bad players, but how poorly the stance scale with content, right now any proper tank will spend 99,99% of the fight in dps stance and 00,01% in tank stance for the pull, agro is not a problem if you are proper geared and know how to make a strong pull even with average gear.

The primary problem with tank stances are the 25% damage penalty (the penalty inself and the skills use in such stance make all tanks lose 25% of his maximun dps) and how clunky and punishing is use to it with DRK and PLD and the extra defense it's doesn't have any significative impac outside of mass pulling and even with that if you are good enough you can turn it off to make more dps.

tank is fun
watching enemies ass is not fun
lol

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Originally Posted by Rosentretter

My dps is ok

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Originally Posted by Rosentretter

As a tank I'm more concerned on properly keeping the aggro than on doing some more numbers.

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wew

There's no advantage to having two, three or ten times as much aggro as the player in second on the list (the white bars with numbers at the bottom of job icons). The OT can provoke and then shirk the main tank, healers have lucid, casters have lucid and diversion, ranged have refresh and tactician, melee have diversion and NIN has Shadewalker and Smokescreen.

If we're talking lvl 70 content, the MT should use their hate combo once in the opener and that's it, especially if they're going to sit in tank stance. This is basic stuff. If you hear or see a tank using Rage of Halone, Butcher's Block or Power Slash and they already have a large enmity lead, they're new to tanking, they're watching TV or they're just bad.

The OT should not be using their hate combo unless they're establishing hate on an add. If a tank swap is being done, the OT will provoke, at which point, the MT will shirk them. If the OT is in tank stance or uses a hate combo while provoking, they're bad or they think the MT is bad (doesn't how to shirk).

Tanks don't go dps stance because the extra dps is needed - if that's the case the DPS in the party are bad - they go dps stance because there is no reason not to. An extra GCD from a healer every now and then if it's even needed isn't going to match the extra dps the tank puts out.

There is no stance dancing. The main tank will have tank stance on for the opening hate combo and that's it.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Tanks lead the party. I'm saying that's why I don't like playing them. They decide the pace of the run. In dungeons anyway.

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Not always. If the healer is undergeared, big pulls aren't happening. If the healer is dpsing while keeping the tank healed and the healer decides to pull more, what's the tank going to say, "Spamming one skill is too hard, please don't pull more"?

Just an aside, I feel like the tank system is flawed at least in their own concerns of when they thought of dark knight. They didn't want a blood tank because they didn't want players harming themselves, they felt it would create issues (at least one of the issues presented against blood magic). The thing is leaving tank stance is effectively harming yourself as your eHP does change. Kind of, imo, makes it seem like a blood tank is back on the table if it's okay to fiddle with your own eHP for damage (tank stance -> not).

Also implying all tank stances give defence. Warriors just get max hp and 20% heals.

I don't think they need to be removed, but I do think they need to be reworked. At the least, the damage penalty is too high.

Having tanked a little bit I can see the validity of both sides. Back in HW I didn't really understand how to use Cleric stance properly and when they removed it I was really happy. And in all honesty it was a great learning tool for me. It helped me learn how to both heal and dps to great effect. That being said. Now that I know how to properly dps and heal I do miss the old Cleric Stance. It made the overworld easier and it made dpsing in dungeons more effective.

I think instead of going for one or the other we should have some kind of medium. I think adjusting stances in general would be better than out right removing them.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Also implying all tank stances give defence. Warriors just get max hp and 20% heals.

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Well let's be fair, at contrary that DRK and PLD, WAR have equilibrium heal every 60s and inner beast spam in defiance making it being the best defensive tank in the game by a mile, so it's already overcompensated.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

That being said. Now that I know how to properly dps and heal I do miss the old Cleric Stance. It made the overworld easier and it made dpsing in dungeons more effective.

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Removing CS didn't affect healer DPS much at all. Healer damage spells now work on MND, not INT. The overall DPS is about the same, just no need to stance dance.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Well let's be fair, at contrary that DRK and PLD, WAR have equilibrium heal every 60s and inner beast spam in defiance making it being the best defensive tank in the game by a mile, so it's already overcompensated.

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Have you done Final Omega on War? I know I'm not the most optimal player but I haven't found a way to mitigate the random Target Analysis busters or short stacks without Defiance, outside of just making my healers deal with it. DRK/PLD do not require tank stance to mitigate these since they have Sheltron and TBN. "Best defensive tank by a mile" does have it's shortcomings.