Removing TP

Why is TP being removed? From a lore standpoint it makes sense, non magic classes use tactical points and magic classes use magic points. I still dont understand that we are still catering to people who get "confused" by having too many things to reference. Every class switching to just MP makes no sense. Why not make it a UI feature to switch the MP/TP bar depending on what class you are on, why is that so hard? I know some classes use both but thats an easy fix, all there skills will use either TP or MP.

Its just a minor complaint but I thought it was an odd choice to have it removed completely.

Because honestly, it doesn't matter what stat they use. This may be better depending on how else they change the system up. Reserving judgement until then.

we never needed tp to begin with it was a ff11 unique thing that got carried over for no reason.

There is really only one class I can think of that will be negatively impacted by this(unless they MASSIVELY reduce the costs). And that's RDM.

Wouldn't PLD also suffer a little as well? Maybe DRK, too?

What? They are? ... Hmm my poor Pally...

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Originally Posted by Avatre

There is really only one class I can think of that will be negatively impacted by this(unless they MASSIVELY reduce the costs). And that's RDM.

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Not just red mage paladin, dark knight, and bard use both as well.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Wouldn't PLD also suffer a little as well? Maybe DRK, too?

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Fair point...I kind of forgot about them when I head about the combining. PLD to the least degree, DRK and RDM will be affected the most.

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Originally Posted by Tsubaki75

Not just red mage paladin, dark knight, and bard use both as well.

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And the list of things I forgot about grows. xD

Dont think bard will be that affected, the only skill still using mp is foe's and you could just replace that with a fixed time buff instead of using mp. since change mp use is that high no potion or mp recovery is high enough to significantly increase its run tim

BRD, PLD, DRK use TP/MP.

TP was a nonissue. Every melee has Goad, tp costs across the board have been reduced, ranged has Tactician for free, heavy TP cost actions like Fracture are gone, and Sprint is free.

It's less about why was TP removed, but why was it still in Stormblood?

Don't really care as long as the re-design means you still effectively can do as much with your char now as before. Primarily affects DRK, PLD and BRD anyway. You don't need TP as an abstract representation of a melee job's ability to carry out actions and, besides, many jobs, like SAM or MNK, weave a lot of aether into their abilities, so I don't think it's even that silly from a lore standpoint - but again abstracted game mechanics don't necessarily need a lore grounding, per se.

TP only ever mattered in AoE. You couldn't ever run out of TP against a single target enemy, really. Not when using any class that's actually TP user. Red Mage could run out though.

And together with methods of recovering TP that numerous classes had, that means that TP was a non-issue in any party that knew what they're doing and was not lagging behind on gear.

With this change however there is a question how will weaponskills work. If they will use MP, we run into an issue of them simply running out of juice. That means that failures (aka deaths) will be that far more destructive to the parties chances.
However, there is an alternative. These skills no longer using any resources at all.

Maybe only the AoE skills like Overpower will use MP to still be limited. Maybe not even they will, with the developers embracing the fact that there is nothing wrong with people pulling from wall to wall and melting everything at once with an AoE barrage. Right now it was restricted to well-geared parties, while the poorly geared parties would run out of TP long before the enemies are dead. Especially if some members don't AoE for whatever ridiculous excuse they may have. That causes a huge, unnecessary gap between players that are lucky with party...and those that are unlucky. By removing the cost to weaponskill AoE's that disappears since even one AoE user will be able to speed up the fight noticeably.

Even now, if you properly manage your resources, casters are unlikely to run out of mana. So sustenance is reasonable to expect from non-casters as well, after all. I for one would be very much for this change if that was the case.

TP served next to no purpose in Stormblood outside AoE situations. Even dying you could usually power through without bothering with Invigoration or Tactician. It's less to do with dumbing down and more they simply didn't need two gauges when one does so little.

Millennials and Gen Zs are simpleminded people. There is your reason about why every game is getting streamlined :)

< Millennial

I keep thinking of Dark souls when they mentioned "consolidating TP and MP". The stamina bar in that game is one way I think it could work. Each action uses a certain amount and other factors affected the regen and length of the bar allowing the player to have more actions within a given limit. It allowed for very inclusive gameplay where one stat or equipment could make the difference between you getting three 2h-GS swing vs two 2h-GS swings before bottoming out. It could work in the same way in FFXIV since the TP bar is essentially a very, very slow version of it.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Millennials and Gen Zs are simpleminded people. There is your reason about why every game is getting streamlined :)

< Millennial

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Then how come my Grandma still can't work her VCR?

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Why is TP being removed? From a lore standpoint it makes sense, non magic classes use tactical points and magic classes use magic points. I still dont understand that we are still catering to people who get "confused" by having too many things to reference. Every class switching to just MP makes no sense. Why not make it a UI feature to switch the MP/TP bar depending on what class you are on, why is that so hard? I know some classes use both but thats an easy fix, all there skills will use either TP or MP.

Its just a minor complaint but I thought it was an odd choice to have it removed completely.

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TP and MP effectively behave the same anyway.

In Lore I would have thought it would be aether.

For classes that use both they just need to rework the costs of spells. We also dont know what this class rework could be. It might just be the removal of base class like they have wanted to do for a good while, or more drastic.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

we never needed tp to begin with it was a ff11 unique thing that got carried over for no reason.

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It got carried over because the original concept for the battle system was gonna be an extension of the revamped system they did at the end of 1.23. where you actually had to build TP in order to do ya powerful combos which would have made combat a lot more tactical and less button spammy. In a sense of do you do your combo when you get to 1000TP or keep building to 3,000TP for a bigger burst of your combos later kinda sense...

https://media.wired.com/photos/59327...s/ffxiv_20.jpg

Skills in 1.23 felt alot more powerfull and had more weight because of this. where with the current system nothing carries any weight or feels like it packs a punch. it's just spam buttons to keep up some flashy lights and sparkles on your autoattacks. nothing feel special or powerful.

to this day i wish they'd go back to that system. was so much better and felt so much more powerfull when you did combos

I don't really think it's a big deal for them to remove it and just give people MP across the board. Does seem like a rather pointless change though.

TP to me always seemed like one of those XI concepts that should have stood with it. iirc, TP was a gauge that filled up in order to use weapon skills. In FFXIV, your weapon skills are readily available assuming you have the TP and the gcd isn't ticking. They're hindered by the gcd and animations, so I never really understood why they had to cost anything at all. This was even made more so in SB, when each job got it's own gauge, which typically gate a job's more divine abilities.

I don't play enough jobs to know which ones will be affected by the change, but I don't see how it could be negative unless perhaps TP restrictions is what prevents breaking the job.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

to this day i wish they'd go back to that system. was so much better and felt so much more powerfull when you did combos

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This might be just me, but that system just felt like the ATB system on active. Not saying that's a bad thing as I still play games with an ATB system. I am just not sure it's 'with the times' so to speak as far as today's mmos go.

My point was more coming from job identity, and lore. Guess that isnt something most care about anymore. I enjoy when classes have there own version of things. I mean some games even give each class there own resource all together. Maybe with 5.0 we will see more of that. Like all the gauges we have now.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

My point was more coming from job identity, and lore. Guess that isnt something most care about anymore. I enjoy when classes have there own version of things. I mean some games even give each class there own resource all together. Maybe with 5.0 we will see more of that. Like all the gauges we have now.

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I'm right there with you, making every class (especially the new gunblade class) use MP is just weird to me.
I'm hoping that maybe when you switch jobs, your resource bar will act like the appropriate resource like WoW has it.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

My point was more coming from job identity, and lore. Guess that isnt something most care about anymore. I enjoy when classes have there own version of things. I mean some games even give each class there own resource all together. Maybe with 5.0 we will see more of that. Like all the gauges we have now.

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From a lore perspective, TP should never exist and HP should be used for physical actions. Physical strength is what you use up during heavy activity. That's why it's possible to overwork yourself to the point of dying. So we're already scratching that assumption off.

If we'll put a different take on it and assume that the energy expenditure of these skills is not large enough compared to the physical prowess of the character over a course of a single dungeon/raid/whatever, then we come to a point where weaponskills costing nothing (because the demand on the body is negligible) but time (cooldowns) is lore-wise more correct.

You are either able to use tactics or not. There is no case where your tactical prowess is lowered, except when you are sick, drunk, drugged or otherwise impaired mentally. That's what pacifism is there for. Cleverness and cunningness simply are never spent on use.

Also MP represents all sorts of resources. It represents hate for Dark Knight, for example. It basically represents "metaphysical points" rather than "mana points". If something is not physical strength, then it's metaphysical. So MP still fits.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

My point was more coming from job identity, and lore. Guess that isnt something most care about anymore. I enjoy when classes have there own version of things. I mean some games even give each class there own resource all together. Maybe with 5.0 we will see more of that. Like all the gauges we have now.

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I support such things as well, and welcomed the concept of job gauges in SB. Losing the TP gauge doesn't take away as far as this goes as it is a global resource for all jobs, even the ones who don't use it at all. But yes, perhaps with 5.0 there will be things they add to both identity and lore for all our jobs.

Most likely to clean up gauges. Melees never needed to look at their mp. Casters and healers have tp become irrelevant since sprint's overhaul. I see it along the same sort of update as pruning all the elemental resistances from our character menus, except this is actually all up in your UI. Reserving further judgment until more information's out.

It could be that current TP requiring jobs will still need resource to use such actions but it will be built in to their respective job gauges instead.

It hasn't really had a purpose except to explicitly cause imbalance since it was changed from the Stamina bar. At best, ARR Monk was the exception, as it had significantly more TP-costly and TP-inexpensive options, and Fracture was not yet mandatory for the majority of SkS breakpoints, nor removed as it was later.

Apart from the above Monk exception, its historical uses are few and purely punitive:

• To nerf access to Sprint for physical classes only.
• To nerf sustainable AoE for physical classes only.
• To reduce the general sustainability of physical class combat.
• To nerf Skill Speed.

Even if we were to give Sprint back a drain cost, making it more punishing but also more flexible, it'd still make no sense for it to apply solely to TP. A combined SP or Stamina Points or whatever would make far more sense as it'd affect jobs evenly.

The changes should be insignificant here. There are only three jobs that actually include resources in their gameplay beyond the common sense of their ability usage (healers) or obvious limiters (resurrection spells, be it on healers or SMN and RDM), PLD, DRK, and BLM.

BLM won't be changed whatsoever as it never had any TP interaction anyways.
PLD will at most see its MP recovery slowed during melee rotations or TE, less punished during Flash, and accelerated during true downtime.
DRK will at most see its MP recovery slowed during melee rotations and accelerated during true downtime, almost as if the old Darkside drain cost ticked per (physical) action rather than every 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

It got carried over because the original concept for the battle system was gonna be an extension of the revamped system they did at the end of 1.23. where you actually had to build TP in order to do ya powerful combos which would have made combat a lot more tactical and less button spammy. In a sense of do you do your combo when you get to 1000TP or keep building to 3,000TP for a bigger burst of your combos later kinda sense...

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Perhaps with a fundamental revision of that system what you're describing could have happened, but 1.23 was as far from tactical as you could possibly get.

Outside of reactives like Haymaker, there were only two actual TP costs in 1.23, either 1000 or 1500, due to the way the combo system worked.

As a Yoshida-era 1.x class/job, you had two options:

• You opened with your 1500 TP skill, which then gave your 2500 and 3000-TP skill for free, then alternated to your 1000 skill that gave the 2000 and other 3000 skill for free, then back but with the 3000 skill still on cooldown, then back again but with your other 3000 skill on cooldown; repeat.
• You opened with your 1000 TP skill, which then gave the 2000 and other 3000 skill for free, then alternated to your 1500 skill that gave the 2500 and other 3000 skill for free, then back but with the 3000 skill still on cooldown, then back again but with your other 3000 skill on cooldown; repeat.

That was literally it.

If you delayed in using your opening combo, you'd risk losing uses over the fight for literally no benefit. If you held onto TP, you'd waste time that could have been spent cooling a mid-combo ability, which in turn potentially cost you bridge and finisher uses over a fight. The combo conditions lasted long enough that if, on immediate use, the bridge would fade before your finisher could refresh from its cooldown, another combo would get you there in time anyways.

Yoshida had already removed any skill-chain like bonuses afforded by Battle Regimen, so there were no damage bonus windows. You used your skill-buff skill on a particular ability and on very few jobs alternated which it'd be applied to if the added use within a fight afforded you more potency than waiting for the stronger skill.

There was no tactical complexity whatsoever outside of maybe Fists of Wind and Keen Flurry on Monk (both then a CD reduction, meaning they could shake up your combo alternations very slightly if stacked). For everyone else, you solely alternated between combo one and combo two for as many GCDs as each would last. Anything else cost you performance.

Were the actions weighty? Yes. Did the system have the capacity to allow for rotational complexity? No. Was it more thoughtful? No. It had and has never been more braindead. For most fights, even Tanaka's systems had more to them.

That's not to say I wouldn't like a system that would have the depth you're describing, but... 1.23 was the antithesis of that, not its shining example.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Why is TP being removed? From a lore standpoint it makes sense, non magic classes use tactical points and magic classes use magic points. I still dont understand that we are still catering to people who get "confused" by having too many things to reference. Every class switching to just MP makes no sense. Why not make it a UI feature to switch the MP/TP bar depending on what class you are on, why is that so hard? I know some classes use both but thats an easy fix, all there skills will use either TP or MP.

Its just a minor complaint but I thought it was an odd choice to have it removed completely.

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Because it's a useless variable that takes up 25% of the frequent status updates. TP should have disappeared with 1.x when we moved away from the turn-based combat that was more tactical than action.

What if when they remove TP, actions that take TP simply wont take anything any more? You'll just have the GCD to worry about. Then they can remove Goad and Invigorate. You might say well then why don't they just remove MP... to which the only answer I have is so healers cant heal indefinitely.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Fair point...I kind of forgot about them when I head about the combining. PLD to the least degree, DRK and RDM will be affected the most.



And the list of things I forgot about grows. xD

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PLD Clemency is very useful, it can save yourself, your healers & dps, so your team won't wipe.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

It got carried over because the original concept for the battle system was gonna be an extension of the revamped system they did at the end of 1.23. where you actually had to build TP in order to do ya powerful combos which would have made combat a lot more tactical and less button spammy. In a sense of do you do your combo when you get to 1000TP or keep building to 3,000TP for a bigger burst of your combos later kinda sense...

https://media.wired.com/photos/59327...s/ffxiv_20.jpg

Skills in 1.23 felt alot more powerfull and had more weight because of this. where with the current system nothing carries any weight or feels like it packs a punch. it's just spam buttons to keep up some flashy lights and sparkles on your autoattacks. nothing feel special or powerful.

to this day i wish they'd go back to that system. was so much better and felt so much more powerfull when you did combos

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I like the old system too, you can use Cure on undead, use ICE on Ifrit, every skill is unique.
now they are only use for combo, all you need to do is press 123, every job, on every single enemy, from 2.0 to 4.0... LOL
if you like doing combos you can do it in 1.2x too,

Yes the maps，ui in 1.0 are suck, but there are many things:
gameplays, content designs, open world, quest quality, community, sense of adventure & immersion, player interaction, good memories, etc, in 2.0 are inferior to 1.2x

New =/= always better
It's like Sangokushi 12 & 13 for example, the graphics are prettier, but the gameplay is a lot worse than before, feels like a web game or adobe flash game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Perhaps with a fundamental revision of that system what you're describing could have happened, but 1.23 was as far from tactical as you could possibly get.

Outside of reactives like Haymaker, there were only two actual TP costs in 1.23, either 1000 or 1500, due to the way the combo system worked.

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there was a bit more to it than just TP. you had other elements such as incaspaicaitions and the then removed regimen system wehch they could have revised. but the incapacitations where still there. do you dragon kick from a bosses flank for increased damage or do you do it from the front or rear. slightly less damage but the possibility to break a bosses tail or head or some such. which could then make the rest of an encounter easier. break chimeras tail for example and now he cant tail swipe your party for the rest of the fight... bust a bosses arm and now his power punch is a lot more manageable..

there were also benefits to stockpiling tp. while it may have resulted in less dps over the course of an encouter it would allow for burstier spikes which proved usefull for many groups in things like garuda. with adds. untill such things as the blm exploits were discovered at least allowing the adds to be largely ignored. so it did have a trade off a little less damage over time for a little more damage when it was needed..

was it perfect no but it's something they could definitely have built upon and wouldhave been much more interesting than just do thesame static rotation every time regardless of what your fighting.

I don't remember hearing that they were removing TP

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Originally Posted by Krokov

I don't remember hearing that they were removing TP

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It was in the keynote yesterday. All jobs will use MP and TP will be removed

I must not of been listening :-o, Well this is gonna be different. Not too different though.

They are "consolidating TP and MP into one single ressource" was their take on it.
But completly removing everything related to TP is actually better than trying to balance that new ressources with TP using GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

They are "consolidating TP and MP into one single ressource" was their take on it.
But completly removing everything related to TP is actually better than trying to balance that new ressources with TP using GCDs.

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They are consolidating it all into MP, yes they talked about a new bar with seeing shields and stuff so ill just have to wait until 5.0 to see.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because it's a useless variable that takes up 25% of the frequent status updates. TP should have disappeared with 1.x when we moved away from the turn-based combat that was more tactical than action.

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They should have kept the more tactical combat instead of going for an "action" combat, and TP wasnt useless, they could have easily made it more important for the classes/jobs that used it. Just like MP is for magic based classes/jobs

So now, PLD and DRK will have MP weapon skills...including one that...gives MP back ?
And Blood Weapon will reduce our WS-MP cost, while giving back MP ?

And I hope Requiescat will be adjusted because it will be hard to keep our MP above 80% if the "physical" rotation still uses them.

Right now, it feels very strange to me :confused: