Moderate Latency (150~) + Impacts of Double Weaving

After looking around the forums for DPS that is good with a high latency, these are the common responses:

SAM/BLM - Least affected
MNK - Moderately affected
RDM/DRG - Abit more moderately affected
NIN/BRD - Don't even try.
SMN/MCH - Didn't see any responses so no idea.

I'm getting into the DPS role and have raided with BRD/NIN/MNK/SAM. With 150 ping I cannot fit 2 ogcds most of the time without clipping into the next gcd.

So my questions are:
How much damage am I losing if I don't strictly follow the optimal openers and just try to spread everything out evenly (single weave everything), over the entire fight.

Second, are dragoons really that dependent on double weaving? I've looked at the CPM for DRG and it is fairly low for most fights.

Should I just play whatever class I want and single weave everything or change to a slower class like DRG/BLM? (All my friends are playing SAM already).

Don't play MCH with high ping. It will be absolutely hopeless until SE fixes the class. Not only is double weaving important, Rapid Fire will make weaving ogcds even worse.

You'll be losing a good ammount if you can't double weave. Both from cds drifting out of burst windows, and just delaying your damage output by a good margin.

Also smn is a lot of double weaving in the opener, but it doesn't have as many later on. But still a decent ammount of double weaves.

Blm may work out for you well, as the high latency will increase your ability to slide cast a bit, as long as you don't have bad packet loss as well. Bad packet loss will nuke your rotation on every job.

I'd say pick something you like that only uses single oCDs, blm/rdm for example, but still expect to be down 10% on dps even if you're perfect.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

I'd say pick something you like that only uses single oCDs, blm/rdm for example, but still expect to be down 10% on dps even if you're perfect.

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I don't think it'd be 10% bad on blm. I can't think of any points in standard opener or rotation having double weaves.

DRG's rotation is slow enough you generally won't have much issues with clipping even at a high latency, though you can more limit double weaving. That being said, you should try to play something you still enjoy. If DRG isn't your forte, you aren't going to enjoy the game as much feeling forced to play it.

I personally prefer melees that is why I wanted to ask about DRG, also the fancy moves and armor is a nice bonus too.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Not only is double weaving important, Rapid Fire will make weaving ogcds even worse.

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You're just supposed to use one oGCD between each GCD during Wildfire/Overheat, I don't see any problem with it. It's really dynamic and fun if used properly. You have to use Reassemble at the right moment when you have to use Clean Shot according to your proc during the Wildfire/Overheat window to make it worth because you can only use one oGCD and not 2. You have to take your decision quickly, that's a part of why it's fun.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

I'd say pick something you like that only uses single oCDs, blm/rdm for example, but still expect to be down 10% on dps even if you're perfect.

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Latency isn't that big of an impact on overall damage at any job. One of the best BLMs in the world said he plays at 160ms last time I asked he was asked about it.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

You're just supposed to use one oGCD between each GCD during Wildfire/Overheat, I don't see any problem with it. It's really dynamic and fun if used properly. You have to use Reassemble at the right moment when you have to use Clean Shot according to your proc during the Wildfire/Overheat window to make it worth because you can only use one oGCD and not 2. You have to take your decision quickly, that's a part of why it's fun.

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No. This is what you're supposed to do: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

And just because you're using 1 ogcd between gcds with Rapid Fire doesn't mean it's easier because of this:
- 1.5 gcd + ogcd: 1.5 - 0.75 - 0.75 = 0s room for latency
- 2.5 gcd + 2x ogcd: 2.5 - 0.75 - 2 x 0.75 = 0.25s room for latency

If double weaving is a problem (and you do need to double weave in OHWF), Rapid Fire weaves are an even bigger problem.

You want to double weave on SMN in the opener for buff alignment later on in the fight (i.e. you want to Tri-Disaster and Deathflare with personal buffs and party buffs expiring at certain points in the rotation). Double weaving becomes less important later on, but it is still more optimal to do so if possible.

MCH is the worst job to play optimally with bad ping. I have 30-40 ms server latency and I notice immediately when I get a lag spike during Wildfire. Rapid Fire results in lots of GCD clipping if you start lagging.

You generally want to avoid high APM jobs that require double weaving such as BRD/NIN if you have very high latency. Jobs with less oGCDs and slower GCDs are more manageable. BLM can be okay with higher ping, but you may get weird MP tick or Astral Fire/Umbral Ice transition issues.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

I personally prefer melees that is why I wanted to ask about DRG, also the fancy moves and armor is a nice bonus too.

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In that case, I'll pass along the Crit opener. Ideally, you want below 700 SkS but even if you venture a little above that, it shouldn't impact you too much. If you do notice a fair bit of clipping, do Diversion pre-pull and delay your second Mirage Dive. And if you don't raiding, move Jump and Geirskogul back one GCD. Should help with the clipping.

I'll agree on SMN, in that it's a bit situational. You'll see double-weaving in a lot of openers, as suggested above, whether you start with all three Festers before a short DWT while double-weaving some OGCDs between Ruin II casts or quickly burning through Aetherflow with Fester/Painflare weaves. Outside of the opener though you'll pretty much only want to single-weave, though you could maybe get away with something like Rouse+Enkindle between casts, but probably best to avoid. Also, due to the way pets process the commands, it'll be impossible to double-weave Devotion+Enkindle, so bear that in mind. Those two absolutely must be spaced out between casts.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

No. This is what you're supposed to do: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

And just because you're using 1 ogcd between gcds with Rapid Fire doesn't mean it's easier because of this:
- 1.5 gcd + ogcd: 1.5 - 0.75 - 0.75 = 0s room for latency
- 2.5 gcd + 2x ogcd: 2.5 - 0.75 - 2 x 0.75 = 0.25s room for latency

If double weaving is a problem (and you do need to double weave in OHWF), Rapid Fire weaves are an even bigger problem.

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Where did you get that one action is animation locked at 0.75sec?
The this is what i'm supposed to do leads me to a gigantic guide book, so please be more specific. "0.75" reasearch leads me to nothing, and Rapid Fire only leads me to "but since this is a shortened rotation it doesn’t actually result in further dps loss unless you have very low skill speed and lag a lot during Rapid Fire."
And laging or not doesn't change that you will still hit quicker than without Rapid Fire, so it's still a gain even with high ping. And too high ping is a loss anyway whatever the class you're playing.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

The this is what i'm supposed to do leads me to a gigantic guide book, so please be more specific.

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I linked a guide to proper rotations because you suggested that MCH only does single weaves during OHWF window, this is incorrect. You do 2x double weaves and 2-3x single weaves depending if you have Overload/Heartbreak ready. You also don't time your Reassemble on your proc, you time your procs on your Reassemble, which is always used at the same ogcd slot with the same timing. Because you "did not see any problem with it", I wanted to point out that there most definitely is a problem if you can't double weave, because you absolutely must, and that even the single weaves pose a problem most other classes don't have to worry about.

I think having the proper understanding of the class and the rotations is important before making assumptions such as yours, because they're exactly the reason why SE is unable to see the problems in their own class design and why the job is still broken after well over a year of updates to other classes.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Where did you get that one action is animation locked at 0.75sec?

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Average animation lock for most abilities is around 0.70-0.75s in good latency conditions and it's the average most commonly used in theory crafting. It has been tested time and again, and you can gather evidence about it yourself by going through video footage. I had the small equations there to back up my argument that the single weaves during Rapid Fire are worse than double weaves, because your argument seemed to rely on the point that single weaves would somehow be easier to do than double weaves, this is incorrect under Rapid Fire.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

...and Rapid Fire only leads me to "but since this is a shortened rotation it doesn’t actually result in further dps loss unless you have very low skill speed and lag a lot during Rapid Fire."

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This quote has nothing to do with Rapid Fire and more to do with the gcd uptime lost due to FT+WF double weave, which is more like a triple weave when accounting for 2 ticks of FT.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

And too high ping is a loss anyway whatever the class you're playing.

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Obviously, but MCH doesn't even require a lot of lag to become unplayable, even the smallest amount has a very large effect compared to most other classes. There's also no way to adjust the rotation to single weaves due to how tight the Wildfire and Overheat windows are, while many other jobs can.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

I don't think it'd be 10% bad on blm. I can't think of any points in standard opener or rotation having double weaves.

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It's 10% bad regardless of job/oCDs. I've tested on dummies at 110ms and 300ms, the difference was close to 15%. That didn't matter so much when people were doing 1100 dps, now it's 6k+ it's a huge gap. It takes X amount more time to send your commands, so you end up with less actions over the same time period. Doesn't matter if the actions are queued, the command still has to get to the server.

You likely had packet loss involved in that then. There are plenty of orange smn and blm that play at 250-300.

No, I did the traces, no packet loss was involved. The big difference in my latency was due to a major undersea cable cut that took over a month to be repaired. This test was a like for like - same gear, same player, same rotations, same everything bar the latency involved (how good/bad I mght be wasn't a factor). I do hear the odd anecdote about how so-and-so performs miracle dodging at 500ms, but given the pure physics of the situation, that's not happening without pre-empting. It is possible some are so good they can still pull higher tier DPS, would be interesting to see the difference if they were sub-30, because there certainly would be a difference. I also suspect some people simply don't know their actual pings, particulary if it's measure on some website, where the pings are usually between point A and point B, rather than their own connection and point B. The real question to ask is how close they are to the server, that's what really makes the difference.

It is unfortunate this game does not have a true latency (ping) monitor in game. One way to get an idea of what your ping in-game is by using Resource Monitor that is part of Microsoft Windows.


https://i.imgur.com/lxYNXx6.png


Apparently I am getting between 23 and 31 milliseconds of latency for ffxiv_dx11.exe.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

I linked a guide to proper rotations because you suggested that MCH only does single weaves during OHWF window, this is incorrect. You do 2x double weaves and 2-3x single weaves depending if you have Overload/Heartbreak ready.

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Oh, there was a misunderstanding, I've quote your part about Rapid Fire before writing my part, and I just meant there was only one oGCD between each GCD of Rapid fire during the WF/OH window, I thought it was obvious x)
On my computer with my ping, I more feel it's like 0.6 sec, that's why I'm asking if your 0.75 was official or an average thing like you said.
I'll answer later to the other points, I don't have much time rn and mainly came now to clear the misunderstanding.

So, small recap

The NO
MCH : even without the double weaving your wildfire window will be a pain. (not even concidering how messy the job is in itself)

BRD, it should be renamed "the weaver"

NIN : bad idea too because of mudra

The "opening could be hard but then its OK"
SMN DRG RDM ; they have a high amount of ogcd, however it's just during the opening. (and while it's important, if u only clip on 2-3 action on a 10min fight it won't break your dps)

The "u overall should be fine"
SAM, MNK,
They may have a bit of double weave but it's nothing you can't adapt.

The "easy"
BLM - BLM is very simple in the sens that you either weave easily, or you clip. However due to the nature of the BLM ogcd. Also the amount of double weaving is non existant if played properly. And even if not they won't occur more than once or twice in a fight.


Not sure if I missed something

SMN is double weave heavy in the opener and specific moments during the general rotation, otherwise is fine to single provided it isn't delaying cooldown timers.

While not the titled moderate 150ms, playing at 220+ms I spent a lot of time working out the general cost and differences for myself. To the person that stated 10-15% of a loss, that is a massive exaggeration. In my case, with my latency, low fps and other delay factors it's costing, at the worst case, ~4.2% of my dps potential as a SMN if all my factors were ideal.

Upcoming bard here. I play at 110ping and the only real problem i feel with double weaving is for procs. I cant preque the abilities becouse i have to wait for them to actually come up so i cant lets say use a song followed by battle voice as in the bard opener becouse it takes to long for battle voice to become usable with my ping leading to some clipping