How much tenacity should have a tank for savage?

Hi, I want to know how much tenacity should have a tank? (in my case Pld).

Since I'm Ot most of the time for those savage (currently in Kefka progress), not sure if it's worth it to have a high tenacity or should I invert in another Stat like direct hit?

Current tenacity: 1542

Whatever's on the highest ilvl gear you're using is fine.

There is no 'correct' amount of tenacity. It offers pretty miniscule defensive gaines at the expense of some dps. You dont need any tenacity to complete raids. People did this stuff in ilv 250 gear. Just grab the highest ilvl gear you can, and when you have more than one option (or melding) get direct hit, crit, and Det. You can pretty much ignore Ten and SS whenever it comes up.

Ten is more of a defensive placebo than anything.

I want to say Ten is maybe worst than the old substrat it supposed to replace.
Tenacity is almost useless, even with the crafted stuff at the beginning of the new savages, you can play your tank well without any of Ten.
If you really want to worry about a stat in tank, use Crit. You'll do more damage, the fight will be shorter, and shorter a fight is, less error you can make.

In defense of tenacity, ever notice how the tanks of world first sigma and world first UwU stacked loads of it? :thinking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azerhan

I want to say Ten is maybe worst than the old substrat it supposed to replace.

---

You realise that Tenacity replaced Parry, right? The fact that Tenacity increases dps already makes it better than Parry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

In defense of tenacity, ever notice how the tanks of world first sigma and world first UwU stacked loads of it? :thinking:

---

Because world first groups used Tenacity to offset being below to intended iLvl for the later Sigmascape floors, and because there's a lot of damage going out in Ultimate fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nezerius

Because world first groups used Tenacity to offset being below to intended iLvl for the later Sigmascape floors, and because there's a lot of damage going out in Ultimate fights.

---

My point is simply to point out that tenacity is a perfectly good stat to meld, and it has shown its usefulness. It's not a placebo, and it's not the worst stat out there. Is it the best? No, but it's not a bad choice either.

I have like 800 in BIS so...it doesn't matter really. I mean I cleared 5 & 6 IN 340 bis(1100 ten i believe) day 1 so again it doesn't really matter. Just take whatever is highest ilvl. Meld it if you like, it honestly doesnt make a noticeable difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

My point is simply to point out that tenacity is a perfectly good stat to meld, and it has shown its usefulness. It's not a placebo, and it's not the worst stat out there. Is it the best? No, but it's not a bad choice either.

---

Actually, it isn't. And virtually every tank guide advises against melding it. Tenacity builds only occurred in Deltascape and promptly fall off come Sigma. They aren't remotely a thing in Ultimate. To quote Emiin,

Quote:

---

Tenacity is currently regarded as a progression stat, in a similar vein to Grit usage - helpful on occasion, but not enough to warrant future use. Most discussions revolve around a simple statement - Tenacity is iffy on gear, but awful melded. Don’t go out of your way looking for it.

---

Basically, you only consider it for WF prog. And even in that scenario, only ever if it's presented with another favorable stat. For example, PLD wouldn't touch a Ten/SkS piece unless they're upgrading their left side from i350 to i370. And even in this very niche scenario, a good number of tanks still don't really bother with it. Tenacity has more or less become an, "Eh, at least it isn't Parry," stat.

For the OP, PLD BiS can be found in this guide. Focus primarily on your ilvl while progressing, though for specific melds, you want Direct Hit on everything if you only play Paladin.

Alright, thank you so much for all your comments, I will look to that guide.

Just wanna add a quick note/ If you can't afford Crit / DHit / Det materias, melding Tenacity is better than nothing.

And a full set melded with Crit is like 100 DPS max above a full Ten-melded set. So Ten not as good as the other substats, but it's not useless either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megguido

Just wanna add a quick note/ If you can't afford Crit / DHit / Det materias, melding Tenacity is better than nothing.

And a full set melded with Crit is like 100 DPS max above a full Ten-melded set. So Ten not as good as the other substats, but it's not useless either.

---

I will agree with this. The defense provided by tenacity is a non-factor, but it's not half-bad as a poverty/interim meld due to how cheap it is.

You want to keep that as low as possible without sacrificing ilvl

Now if only they would increase its scaling slightly so it would be better or on par with DH we would actually have a desired tank stat as desired when it was implemented. How they have not increased its scaling by this point to negate tank use of DH is beyond me.

Well I´m not really good with talk stats. But my point of veiw tenacity will never be as useful as crit,dh, det and ss. Reason is tenacity same as vit and def. If game system set up like you need X tenacity+ X VIT+ X DEF+ Mitigation CD for survive tankbuster then those stats will be very useful. However we all know game so well so long we use Mitigation CD we will survive it with minium requirement ilvl.

If SE want people to use tenacity more
1. Buff it as good as crit,dh,det and ss. (did SE said remove DH from tank before)?
2. Remove crit,dh,det or ss from tank
3. Make it to requirement for survive tankbuster.
4. Just remove it from meld.

[QUOTE=Nezerius;4736591]You realise that Tenacity replaced Parry, right? The fact that Tenacity increases dps already makes it better than Parry.


By that I mean Parry was known to be bad, and anybody noticed it out after some time playing tank. With Ten, you've a lot of user, as the OP, think that it's good.
But it's not, at least for "normal" player. And even for the bests players, it's not really interresting after a month.

The base tenacity the gear provides is more than enough. You shouldnt have to meld tenacity for any content in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azerhan

By that I mean Parry was known to be bad, and anybody noticed it out after some time playing tank. With Ten, you've a lot of user, as the OP, think that it's good.
But it's not, at least for "normal" player. And even for the bests players, it's not really interresting after a month.

---

I think misunderstood something. Tenacity is not worse than parry in general, but worse in physical defense.

I don't remember the exact numbers, so here an example:
If you've got x Tenacity, you get 5% mitigation.
If you've got x Parry, you get +50% parry rate - roughly about 10% physical mitigation.

BUT, if we take into account that DRK lost its parry procs, Tenacity mitigates every kind of damage, increases your own healing on yourself (I still don't know whether this is intentional or not) and on top of that, it increases your damage-output by roughly 3/4 of Determination's value - Tenacity becomes a way better stat than Parry.

(+1% damage for +217 Tenacity points or +167 Determination points. See this list for reference!)

Tenacity is not bad by any means. It's just that DPS is meta, and you build your mitigation/heals around your maximised DPS, not vice versa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

I think misunderstood something. Tenacity is not worse than parry in general, but worse in physical defense.

I don't remember the exact numbers, so here an example:
If you've got x Tenacity, you get 5% mitigation.
If you've got x Parry, you get +50% parry rate - roughly about 10% physical mitigation.

BUT, if we take into account that DRK lost its parry procs, Tenacity mitigates every kind of damage, increases your own healing on yourself (I still don't know whether this is intentional or not) and on top of that, it increases your damage-output by roughly 3/4 of Determination's value - Tenacity becomes a way better stat than Parry.

(+1% damage for +217 Tenacity points or +167 Determination points. See this list for reference!)

Tenacity is not bad by any means. It's just that DPS is meta, and you build your mitigation/heals around your maximised DPS, not vice versa.

---

If you had 50% parry rate from Parry, you'd probably have close to 10-15% damage reduction from Tenacity.

At current rates, you get around 5% damage reduction from tenacity at what, +1100? No way that's worth +30% Parry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

If you had 50% parry rate from Parry, you'd probably have close to 10-15% damage reduction from Tenacity.

At current rates, you get around 5% damage reduction from tenacity at what, +1100? No way that's worth +30% Parry.

---

If you'd get 10-15% mitigation from Tenacity and just 50% parry rate from the same amount of Parry, then Tenacity would have been overall better.

When SB started, there was a post claiming that Tenacity is worse than Parry for defense/mitigation - a "tank" stat. And I just said in my last post, I don't remember the numbers.

Keep in mind that a parry works on non-crit physical attacks only, and a parry reduces the damage by 20% - always!
So, +30% parry rate are roughly about 6% mitigation on physical attacks, and if it's true that parry did mitigate more damage, then yes, Tenacity could be around 5% then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Stuff about parry/ten.

---

There are a lot of reasons why this doesnt quite line up. The early posts on tenacity did not have the sample size needed to parse out the 1% mitigation per 200 tenacity. People tossed on some Ten gear, got hit by some mobs and couldnt really 'see' a difference and many claimed it was broken/did nothing. That was found to be untrue over time.

* Tenacity is a flat % damage reduction. It works similar to crit in this regard. Low amounts of crit are not very useful. High amounts of crit is VERY powerful. The more you have the better it gets. Mitigating 3% damage with tenacity is pretty laughable. Mitigating 90% of damage with tenacity is OP as fudge.

* Parry was the opposite. At infinity amount of parry you had 100% parry rate which was only 20% reduction (phy only) mitigation. Compare this to infinity tenacity. You are literally invincible with 100% mitigation. However at lower levels you saw ok-ish gains from parry.

Ten was introduced at a stat reset lv 70, so we can never compare heavensward parry rates with stormblood tenacity because the numbers of secondary stats was reset and inflated so there is no 1 to 1 comparison anymore.

Parry had more notable returns defensively at low ammounts, but fell off hard AND had zero offensive capability (HW Drk was more impacted by using parry abilities than actually gearing parry). But even this bonus was watered down by all 3 tanks. Raw intuition made parry 100% useless for 20/90 seconds. Pld shield blocks reduced parry blocks. Drk's Dark Dance reduced the value of parry by giving free parry rate boosts on a high uptime, low CD ability.

Parry had no offense, the gains it had were watered down by bad synergy with shields and parry abilities. Tenacity is a far more consistent defensive ability that doesnt penalize you offensively the way parry did, and has some potential to be useful in progression and late in the expansion cycle because it scales better. The same way that at 4.0 direct hit was the best for nearly every class, but as we have more and more stats, crit is overtaking it class by class over time.

200 Ten is 1% mitigation. People can currently stack about 2000 (after the 364 base) so you can walk around with 10% mitigation at all times. That is the same as about a 50% parry rate, but it applies to EVERYTHING. You did not reach 50% parry rates from gear alone in the past, especially with all the neutering of shields and parry based CDs. Ten is flat out better defensively and offensively. With another Ilvl patch to 390 coming up soon, that 10% mitigation will only go up to 12-13%. This is of course if you go all in on Ten, which is not advised, but you can definitely see why this can be useful for undergeared progression. Tanks that take 10%+ less damage lets you survive things you are woefully undergeared for. But for the 99.9% of players that are NOT world 1st prog people that is entirely unneeded.

Ten was a giant step up from parry in every respect and now a much less damning stat for a defensive build, but ultimately still not recommended over traditional offensive stats baring bleeding edge progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

Even more stuff about Ten/Parry

---

I checked again where the rumors about Tenacity being worse than Parry came from. And you are right, people either didn't see the effect of Tenacity and/or claimed that Parry could provide up to +60% parry rate which simply isn't true.

According to this research I melded to 1187 parry for sh*ts & science a full parry melded gear increased the parry rate to roughly 40% up from 10% base parry rate.
That's just about 6% physical mitigation bonus (+30% rate on a 20% mitigation parry) which is even worse than "meh".

*As this "research" and I have already mentioned parry didn't (and still doesn't) mitigate crit-hits. Which means that even with increased parry rate you were still below the "promised" rate because crit-hits have higher priority than parry or block.

*Tenacity, on the other hand, mitigates all kind of damage, not just magical and physical damage, but also reduces the damage when parried or blocked, even crits, and it adds up with other defensive CDs. In addition to this, the mitigiation bonus actually at least TWICE as good as parry ever was. You mentioned the mitigation bonus of Tenacity with 390-400 being around 12-13%. If I can foresightful determine the max. amount of this stat, and compare them to the bonus with the sheet list from my last post, I get the same result. This means grants double the mitigation bonus of parry (still physical only).

Back to the point that Tenacity materia is pretty cheap compared to Determination or DH/Crit, yet still grants 3/4 of their damage bonus, AND helps you surviving better even by a little, it is indeed THE tank stat to go for.
*If you'd have about 4k DPS with a Crit/DH/Det build, you'd do just 30-40 DPS less with Ten ONLY. In the end, if you guys don't do any speed kill runs, you probably wouldn't even notice a difference!

seriously, I don't notice the dps difference with ten med and crit/dh meld ether.....

The average difference is small, but Crit/DH spikes higher, so if you care about FFLogs you go with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Back to the point that Tenacity materia is pretty cheap compared to Determination or DH/Crit, yet still grants 3/4 of their damage bonus, AND helps you surviving better even by a little, it is indeed THE tank stat to go for.
!

---

Now hold your horses, just because tenacity isn't bad doesn't mean it's the best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Now hold your horses, just because tenacity isn't bad doesn't mean it's the best.

---

I mean, she said Tank stat. Not Discount Samurai stat.

It's just kind of a silly question. There isn't really a debate between no tenacity and 2000+ tenacity. Most BiS builds still have 800ish tenacity. So at most you are getting an additional 5-6% mitigation right now. How much mileage you get out of that 5% depends on content. It's not much on the low end of savage, a little more worth on the high end of savage and in ultimate where tanks are taking 3-5 million in total damage. You don't need to "have" any tenacity for savage, but you will have some regardless because it's on our gear. More if you want it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I mean, she said Tank stat. Not Discount Samurai stat.

---

Discount samurai? Last I checked, DPS tanks were useful and desirable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Now hold your horses, just because tenacity isn't bad doesn't mean it's the best.

---

It's best for tanks, but I am blue DPS anyway, so I am not going for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

It's best for tanks, but I am blue DPS anyway, so I am not going for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

Yeah I'm not sure what this tank thing you're talking about is, but I'm having a hard time queuing up for dungeons because nobody plays blue or green DPS.