Hello fellow tanks! So I have a question\discussion id like to have. So I have just started this game about a month or 2 ago so I'm still learning things. But I was wondering if it was normal for DPS when running general dungeons, to pull bosses and trash before the tank? I play WOW for a long time and that always irritated me as it does here but I'm newer so idk if it's a normal thing that I just don't know about or not. Thanks everyone!
Discussion on tanking
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07-22-2018, 11:08 AMStrykr512Discussion on tanking
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07-22-2018, 11:11 AMJoven
Nope, that's just the DPS being impatient. Just sit back and let them die before continuing.
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07-22-2018, 11:15 AMStrykr512Oh good lol. That's what I do. It just has happened so often I was thinking it was something I was doing wrong lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
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07-22-2018, 11:20 AMJovenDepending on what dungeon you're running most people you meet in the duty finder have been through it several times and are anxious to get it done. Don't fret too much about it, you aren't doing anything wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strykr512
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07-22-2018, 01:21 PMRongway
It's not always impatience. Some jobs have buffs or stacks that need time to ramp up. If we wait too long between pulls, those stacks fall off and our attacks lose potency and need to be built back up again.
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07-22-2018, 01:43 PMJovenIt doesn't take all that long to build up stacks of Greased Lightning, after all it is designed to be self-perpetuating. I do agree that having all your stacks fall off all at once is kinda lame. It should drop one stack at a time. That being said though, if you feel like keeping your stacks is worth risking getting overwhelmed then have fun with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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07-22-2018, 01:50 PMJoven(Dang no edit on mobile....)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
I wanted to add that even SAM's rotation is designed to speed into its buffs so you're good after only two rotations. -
07-22-2018, 02:16 PMHierro
As a team player, my best interest lies with the DPS themselves. If they're ready, then great it's time to pull and start tanking! Speaking frankly, within your leveling dungeons and average casual duty finder setting, there isn't anything a tank needs to wait for.
Just suck it up and voke and establish hate if your DPS pulls first. -
07-22-2018, 03:42 PMJovenI'd have to disagree. The tanks should be the ones to set the pace for a run. I might not like speed runs, but if the tank can hold the hate then I'll do my best to keep up. If they want to take it slow that's OK too. DPS is just way to squishy to go running ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Ultimately it comes down to communication (which I've found sorely lacking in dungeons since I've been back). Let the party know your level of comfort in how fast you want the run to go and get their input. -
07-22-2018, 04:18 PMKabooaThe wall to wall pull lets them know exactly what I'm planning and expecting to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
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07-22-2018, 04:22 PMStrykr512Well the healer is also part of the team. Do tend to be squishy so now the healer has to make up for that. On top of that, the tank may not need to wait for anything for themselves but what if one of the other DPS needs to regen Mana for a sec or the healer? Before they get a sentence out the dps is already pulling. I feel if a dps wants to play tank, then they should que for tank. Otherwise go their role and wait till tank pullsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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07-22-2018, 04:40 PMRaverCore
Realistically it depends on how much you pull and how long you wait for each pull. In my opinion, ultimately it’s down to the healer in how much you can pull in terms of packs of mobs and how comfortable the healer is in healing efficiently. Whenever I’m tanking I look at the healers “Search info” before I do big pulls to see how experienced the healer is at healing by viewing their current level and other healing classes. And I occasionally ask the healer for permission to do big pulls. But in the case of dps pulling without your consent is stupid and you should just let them die. You’re trying to tank and dps is pulling mobs on purpose, just let them die for not playing their role correctly. It’s ok for me for magic dps to pull the boss ONLY because of their valid reasons for the class. Now the situation if the dps start trash talking may be three things; One: Failing to get aggro and maintaining it for long periods of time, Two: Failing to avoid or not avoiding aoe attacks and three: Not playing your class correctly and using your traits incorrectly. I hope this can help, and this based on my experience with all three tank classes fully leveled and played in dungeons,alliance raids,raids and trials.
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07-22-2018, 05:12 PMJovenAs long as you're not the type to get upset if the healer is inexperienced and unable to keep up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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07-22-2018, 05:57 PMHierroLet's be realistic here for a moment. If a DPS pulls first, then they won't be taking much damage to begin with. In a leveling dungeon, I don't see any real reason to expect a raid wide being followed up, which means all that's needed for said pulling-DPS to be okay is a regen from the healer. One GCD, wow! Mana really isn't an issue either since lucid dreaming's a thing too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strykr512
Do you want to get the dungeon done in a timely manner, or do you want to be "right" and let the DPS die to assert some arbitrary mindset and in the proccess take even longer? -
07-22-2018, 07:14 PMEkimmakIf I specifically say "Do not pull that until we kill this mob", then I reserve the right to let a DPS die to a mob. Because there's a reason I just specified not to pull it, I know that it's going to spawn 10 different mobs, and I want the current mob dead before we deal with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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07-22-2018, 09:56 PMSelvokaz
Why do we need to stance dance, if the instances are built around each role doing their particular job. If Dev wants us to tank and gives us the tools to tank, why do people expect the tank to then help out the DPS if DPS has all the tools they need to DPS? Isnt the fact that the Tanks ability to tank is already interwoven with his ability to DPS? I can't speak to much for the paladin and warrior, as my levels in them aren't that high, but from what I've seen in DrK they don't need to or shouldn't have to switch between turning grit on and off. I would like to see a tank particularly Dark Knight maybe not need to turn off its "Tank Stance" and more of its abilities gaining benefit from him being in that stance overall like how Bloodspiller does.
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07-22-2018, 10:40 PMSatarn
Often times the dps/healers who pull ahead of you are simply more experienced players, likely tank mains, who do it because they see the party is capable of handling big pulls just fine and you're doing single pulls, slowing everybody down for no reason.
Outside of very rare situations, this game doesn't really have any strong trash mobs that need to be CCd or focused down, so it is in your best interest as a newbie tank to learn how much to pull in each part of every dungeon and how to peace your cds for said pulls. If you're doing your pulls right then people won't be pulling ahead. If you don't know yet how to pull and people grab extra mobs - don't be a princess and just get the mobs off of them. The whole "you pull you tank" mentality usually just wastes everybody's time. You're here to make the run as smooth and comfy for your group as possible, that's your job as a tank.
One extra tip though - don't stop for a bit after pulling and then run to next group or start next pull before the mobs are dead. Former will often make people waste their placeable heals and AoE, while the later doesn't let people take advantage of the few tics of out of combat TP/MP ragen(which usually takes care of any healer mp issues btw, so long as you actually let them get out of combat). -
07-23-2018, 03:18 AMJoven^ this is what I mean by impatience: instead of communicating or just letting someone run at a level they're comfortable with you'd rather just let people do whatever they want. Not everything has to be a speed run and not everyone plays the same way. Making a run go as smooth as possible is the PARTY'S job not just the tank's, they just set the pace. Cooperation and communication are important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
As long as the tank holds the hate and I'm not constantly having to save the healer I don't care how long a run takes. -
07-23-2018, 05:47 AMSatarnWhich is why you non-verbally communicate to your newbie tank that your group can handle more mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
No, you got it backwards here. Tank keeps enemy attention and positions everything so others can do their own jobs comfortably, that's the core of the role. The run's pace is set by the entire party and what they can handle, not tank's desire to either speedrun or skip around and pick flowers. And yes, that also means not AoE pulling when you realize the group isn't up to snuff.Quote:
Making a run go as smooth as possible is the PARTY'S job not just the tank's, they just set the pace.
If you're fine with people doing bare minimum and never learning anything that's your business. I would rather take the chance to teach them something and help them become a better tank. In fact part of learning for me back when I started, was when somebody pulled ahead of me and I realized we could handle that extra pack just fine.Quote:
As long as the tank holds the hate and I'm not constantly having to save the healer I don't care how long a run takes.
Telling newbies that they're the ones that "set the pace" and "if people don't adjust to you just let them die" or other crap might seem "nice" to you, but in reality is doing them disservice. Sometimes people will want to do things different than you want them, and you can either throw a useless fit or try to adjust and do your job best you can and learn from the experience. -
07-23-2018, 07:46 AMCanadaneNah if a monk is running ahead of me to keep his stacks, more power to him. I'll probably even comm him in the end because he knows his job and knows its priorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
It's also a sign that I'm going too slow as a tank lol.
Too many people think the tank has to pull, when in fact all the tank has to do is hold things and do damage to them while not dying.
Just because the tank isn't the first one to hit the thing doesn't mean the tank is unable to complete their role. Maximum damage while holding things and not dying. -
07-23-2018, 07:54 AMJovenWhy does it always have to be "non-verbal"? Is it really so hard to put into Party Chat: "hey, I think we can handle more on the next pull"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
Every dungeon I've ever run went fast or slow depending on the tank. I've seen tanks try to speed run even though they had no idea what they were doing and I've seen tanks take it slow even though they could hold all the hate in the world. That's what I mean by the tank sets the pace. A bad tank can set back a run a lot worse than bad DPS.Quote:
No, you got it backwards here. Tank keeps enemy attention and positions everything so others can do their own jobs comfortably, that's the core of the role. The run's pace is set by the entire party and what they can handle, not tank's desire to either speedrun or skip around and pick flowers. And yes, that also means not AoE pulling when you realize the group isn't up to snuff.
People learn differently. Just because you're fine with someone running ahead and pulling for you doesn't mean everyone is. Personally I watch every tank I follow to see how they do it and every one has a different way of doing things. This whole "let's throw everyone into the deep end and let them figure it out for themselves instead of taking some time to actually teach them" mentality is why I don't even attempt raid content.Quote:
If you're fine with people doing bare minimum and never learning anything that's your business. I would rather take the chance to teach them something and help them become a better tank. In fact part of learning for me back when I started, was when somebody pulled ahead of me and I realized we could handle that extra pack just fine.
Telling newbies that they're the ones that "set the pace" and "if people don't adjust to you just let them die" or other crap might seem "nice" to you, but in reality is doing them disservice. Sometimes people will want to do things different than you want them, and you can either throw a useless fit or try to adjust and do your job best you can and learn from the experience.
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07-23-2018, 09:52 AMStrykr512
I don't mind I guess a DPS pulling entirely. Like if a black mage pulls a group but they are so good that even if they were to "tank" an enemy or 2, they can burn them down so fast that they don't take much damage. My real issue is the majority of DPS roles who decide to pull, gain the aggro for a sec then run around like an idiot making it really difficult to regain aggro. Then because they didn't do much to gain aggro, I have the healer trying to heal the tank AND the DPS who pulled, therefore gaining more aggro and pulling an enemy or 2, so then I also have to rush and try and grab them too. In my personal case, the healer isn't too bad cuz most of the time my healer is my girlfriend who's sitting right next to me. But if I run solo, the healer will also run around like an idiot making things twice as hard. This is why I feel that the tank should be the one who pulls. And like what's been being said this whole time, if the group thinks tank can pull bigger, just put it in chat. Communicate. That way if the tank feels comfortable he can and communicate that, or if he doesn't feel comfortable he can communicate that as well. This whole mindset of "I'm.a team player but tank needs to suck it up" is very contradictory to all arguments. Communication would basically fix most issues like this I think.
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07-23-2018, 10:51 AMCanadane
For the majority of the time you WILL be the one that pulls.
It's not extremely common to see DPS pull unless you are unnaturally slow at your pulls. THen you may see it more often.
If you're taking what's considered to be an acceptable pace, then you'd only see it if a player needs to keep their stacks, and they'd likely do it because they're rather skilled and know how to handle it, or accidentally and they derp around and run in a panic. Again, you won't see it very often. Accidents happen and higher skilled players are few and far between in roulettes. -
07-23-2018, 09:20 PMaqskerorokero
Dps jobs have a hp bar too, if they can run fast and pull, then mobs will be dead before killing them, don't bother. Beside ppl love the "high risk high reward", want to speed run? then risk.... if you are keeping mobs packed together everything will be ok.
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07-23-2018, 09:39 PMHazmick
Usually if the healer says "Can we pull more/go faster" then I'll oblige, but if a DPS just dashes ahead then I won't go out of my way to help them. I'm not a slow tank, but I'm absolutely going to take it at my own pace. I also oblige if someone asks to take it slower because they're new/inexperienced with their job. We all have to help each other enjoy the content.
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07-23-2018, 10:04 PMFytaynYou're making the assumption here that this DPS is competent at playing in a group. Some players only comprehend how their Job plays when solo so they are trying to keep stacks/mechanics up without understanding how Tanking and Healing work; they are doing it intentionally but idiotically. Others might be used to a certain pace because they usually run with skilled and well-geared Tanks and Healers; they are also doing it intentionally but not adjusting to their group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
And that's assuming the DPS isn't having difficulty playing their Job. I've had DPS trying to pull more and more, or complaining about pacing, when the damage output of the party isn't high enough to support it. My suspicion is that these players are used to the pace they can keep as good Tanks or Healers but can't play their DPS very well. Sometimes the DPS or Healer are simply under-geared and pulling large or fast isn't a good idea. Alternately I've had a two Monk party (or equivalent) ask to pull large groups when the AoE damage output is not enough to justify it. That's less a lack of skill and more of a problem with understanding the difference between a Job's single-target and AoE damage output.
Going back to the top: no, I would not just let them die. I'd use that "communication" some people are demanding to tell them to stop in party chat, maybe even explaining why, and offering to let the DPS or Healer to give me a reason otherwise. This is done quickly while pulling a group because it shouldn't need more than two messages per party member. If they have a good reason I'll try things their way. If there's no good points raised, not "go faster" or "my friends are faster than this", I'll expect them to follow my pacing. After that I will let them die if they pull because they gave me no reason to change pace. They were warned. -
07-24-2018, 03:15 PMmarich7
I’ve been tanking for the last two months since I’ve returned to the game and it’s really fun. I wish I had done so sooner. Communication is all but nonexistent compared to when I first started playing and impatience is extremely annoying and a bit oxymoronic in an rpg imo, but I try not to let those things stop me from enjoying my experience, and I focus on playing the role as intended. That’s my advice. Focus on playing the role as intended. If the dps wants to “help” let em. Just practice snatching enmity from em at the last second. It’s fun. Just take your time, learn to play the role and learn the dung for next time.
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07-24-2018, 03:44 PMMegguido
Letting a DPS die because they pulled one mob ahead of you is a bit harsh. Better ask them to stop, then if they don't care about doing the tank's job, let them do the tank job and turn DPS stance on. But now imagine you're a close to BiS DPS, heavily outgearing the dungeon (ilvl 330 is required for the Compass, guess what happens if you go in at ilvl 370) and just doing the daily roulette to cap tomes. A BLM or SMN at ilvl 370 litterally melts the packs, and it's just frustrating to have AoEs that powerful when the tank only picks up mobs one by one.
Also, it kinda depends on the tank, but a DPS won't just die because you decide it. The healer can keep him alive or not. It can be hard in leveling dungeons (non-tanks will have a hard time tanking Bardam's for example), but in lvl 70 dungeon an overgeared DPS can easily tank everything.
In the end, it boils down to communication. DPS can spend 5 seconds to write "can you pull more please ?", or tank "my gear is shit, don't wanna pull too much" so we avoid silly mistakes, and it makes it smoother for everyone.
Everyone wants to pull wall-to-wall ? Then they might be ready to AoE DPS.
Healer's not confident enough to keep you alive ? Pull less, or manage your cooldowns better (e.g. Hallowed Ground on a big pull is always nice !) -
07-25-2018, 05:01 AMAana
Two sides of the coin. If DPS are pulling in front of you once in a blue moon, whatever. It happens. If they do it once no biggie. If they keep doing it ask them to stop. If they dont, they can enjoy the floor.
However, if this situation happens to you on a regular basis, then you might need to consider a look in the mirror. Are you are just moving excessively slowly? Blowing your entire CD suite for a lame set of trash mobs then waiting for them before pulling?
If DPS seem to ALWAYS be pulling then you are probably just being really, really slow. If it happens once in a blue moon, then you are fine and just got a randomly impatient player. Just make sure you arent the one holding the group up. -
07-25-2018, 05:20 AMTouchandFeelTo expand on this, I have ended up in DF groups with tanks that would literally just stop and wait upwards of 10 to 15 seconds before pulling every single individual group of mobs. I have had tanks that do this and spend the wait time slowly marking every single mob in the group first. I've even had tanks that sit and wait AND then do a countdown or ready check before going ... for ... every ... single ... pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aana
While I didn't jump ahead and start pulling, I definitely let them know that they could just pull and that what they were doing was excessive and greatly slowing down the run.
While some where receptive, many were extremely stubborn and convinced they knew what they were doing and that it was fine.
Please, please, please don't be one of those tanks. -
07-25-2018, 07:53 AMGemina
"Own your aggro".
Those were the words given to me by my tanking senpai a little ways back. He was not very sympathetic when I told him about getting trolled in 50/60 roulette when the DPS purposely pulled ahead of me knowing I was a budding tank. He literally told me I can choose to cry about it, or get better, faster, and stronger and "Make the DPS know who's the HBIC". I chose the latter.
Granted, a DPS who pulls ahead of the tank better know what they're doing, but I feel it is never a tanks job to let an AWOL DPS player eat dirt. This serves to lengthen the run even more so than it does teach that player a lesson. If someone is taking damage, you need to protect them. That is YOUR role. "Own your aggro" -
07-25-2018, 08:41 AMSiegrandWhile I still think that people who pull instead of waiting for the tank to are assholes, I like that methodology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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07-25-2018, 11:21 AMGeminaOh believe me, I am far from excusing these players from poor etiquette. However, intent of the DPS is important. I will even say there are rare cases where it might be best to let them die if they pull early. An example would be where if they pull when the party's resources are depleted, which will lead to a sure wipe if everyone attacks. One death is far better than four. Again though, this is an extremely rare situation, and would suggest the DPS player has no idea what they're doing, or they are trolling. Either way: dead, and possibly booted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegrand
A DPS pulling before the tank will likely not intend to tank the mobs they pull. They will expect the tank to take the aggro off of them. If the tank is experienced, which the DPS players should be able to gauge before pulling ahead of them, it won't be a problem, and the run will go faster. Some tanks are even thankful for this. However, if the tank is inexperienced, it can really bring the run down, and also make the tank feel inadequate.
Experienced players who are very adaptable are quite rare in DF. Because of this, it is generally just good practice to let the tank pull at their leisure save the case where they stand around for minutes on end with their heads in the clouds. I find it best to go into DF with an expectation no higher than the bare minimum. Especially as a DPS. It would be really awesome if we all operated under the mindset, "How can I be the best help to this group?" rather than, "I hope these effers don't slow me down." -
07-26-2018, 10:25 AMAppleJinx
Good tanks can identify what the party is capable of and set the pace based on said assessment. If a trash packs dies fast then there's no reason to take 200 years between pulls. On the contrary, if trash packs are dying slowly due to bad dps players then there's no reason to pull big and you can go slower than usual or you can kick the baddies from your party in order to not sour your own experience. Basically all this comes with experience and if you never step out of your comfort zone and experiment then you will never get better.
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07-27-2018, 03:59 PMMahoSenshi
Dunno. If DPS is pulling ahead of you, its either "muh stacks!" - so its ok to pull ahead (just grab aggro back), or tank is too slow.
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07-27-2018, 05:15 PMDriskusThis is one of the biggest ones that get me. I don't mind if its a low level dungeon where the DPS might not have AoE yet, or where the tank doesn't have their stance. I will usually just DoT everything and if I end up tanking as the healer, oh well, the mobs do basically zero damage anyway. In high level dungeons where everybody has AoE and tank stances are a thing, it doesn't make sense at all to single target everything. If I see it in a higher level dungeon (50+), I'll usually throw out some Holy spam to see if they get the hint once their enemy list goes all green/yellow instead of all red. Some do, but some still keep single targeting and marking everything. I've ended up tanking all of Baelsar's Wall minus the bosses on WHM because of a tank like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
Also the ones that sit and wait for everybody to be at absolute max HP, MP and TP before pulling a boss. Bonus points if they sit there and wait on the healer's shield buff to wear off before pulling. Like why? Divine Benison isn't going to pull aggro like that... -
08-15-2018, 05:04 PMSamRFTanks usually have to go first but I would disagree with letting the DPS die. In most cases when this happens, the DPS is well geared and is able to take a few blows (at some lower levels they might even last longer than the tank). In most cases no one will die and the dungeon will go even faster cause they can continue their combo. Yes it might be a douchy thing to do as DPS but it's not worth slowing the dungeon down since no one is dying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
You bear no responsibility on that impatient DPS dying but it's imo pointless to sit back and let them die, just do your best to keep everyone alive in whatever circumstances, that's the tank mentality you should be going for (and put out as much damage as you can for high end content). -
08-15-2018, 05:29 PMLubu_Mykonoit's nice to shirk an impatient DPS that is pulling constantly, but in general pub roulettes or casual content you are better off just eating it and taking the aggro. I hate it as much as other people but if them dying then complaining then laughing at them as the healer raises them is nice it just makes the whole run awkward, not to mention a lot longer because of DPS fall off and wider chance of wiping.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamRF
I just try to eat it up and move on, there is a lot more important stuff in the game to do and worry about than DPS with stupid etiquette. If they do it with you randomly they are probably going to do it with another tank and healer again, let them make a pointless argument with them. -
08-15-2018, 06:36 PMfumofu
Just grow a thick skin and decide on how you want to play this game. You can't please everyone so don't even try, just play the way you want. The choice is yours. Especially when you're a tank or a healer and can decide who lives and who dies.
ps. and no, random players are not a team. Team can be formed only with friends and people you know.