Now that SMN have Bahamut can we have the others?

Since Summoners now have a proper Bahamut Summon, can we please have a proper Garuda, Ifrit, and Titan Summon and perhaps finally add the missing traditional summons Ramuh, Shiva, and Leviathan. (Cough Alexander would be nice too at LV80)

Reserved for a idea.

We need all primals as demi versions. A real summoner can summon all/almost all the summons, this is how it's always been in FF. Just let us select from a list (similar to role actions list).


It's about time they let me summon Byakko or Tsukuyomi

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

It's about time they let me summon Byakko or Tsukuyomi

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These are two great examples for why they probably won't do that - Tsukuyomi - and Shiva - were only summoned into host bodies, we don't know if they can be summoned on their own, same goes for Susano. Now, Susano at least was said to be a Primal, but Byakko isn't. There's no lore reason for us to be able to summon him. And it's this nitpicking - you can summon this but can't summon that for some arbitrary reason - why they're not going to give us more.

I want Warring Triad egis. Even if just as glamours. Turn Titan into Sephirot, Garuda into Sophia, and Ifrit into Zurvan.

And while it'd never happen, maybe Demi-Shinryuu as a glamour for Demi-Bahamut?

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

These are two great examples for why they probably won't do that - Tsukuyomi - and Shiva - were only summoned into host bodies, we don't know if they can be summoned on their own, same goes for Susano. Now, Susano at least was said to be a Primal, but Byakko isn't. There's no lore reason for us to be able to summon him. And it's this nitpicking - you can summon this but can't summon that for some arbitrary reason - why they're not going to give us more.

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It doesn't matter how a primal was summoned, as long as the Summoner was "bathed" in the Primals Aether. Granted how one gets bathed might be "changing" since we've seen more NPCs get closer to Primals.

As for the summons we should have access to, we first need to finish the main 6, so they need to add Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva Egis, and adjust it so all 6 are viable if unique or able to swap into a specific role, Caster/Tank/Melee. The next thing is to figure out what Primals could replace Bahamut, the main one being Alexander at the moment. We need more summons true, but we can't have an over abundance. Besides Summoners initial quirks, the main issue is the player base wanted to finish the summon set they were expecting, and were told/teased at getting. Truthfully, if SE had just adjusted the issues and given us the other 3 Primals, "everyone" would be satisfied, and getting other Primals would just feel like a bonus.

But in the end, while getting more Primals would be great, there has to be a limit, not saying the 3 others are that limit but they are at least needed.

After two expansions worth of moving away from it and into Bahamut-mage, they're not going to back down from it. Two things are likely at this point, imo:

1. We won't be getting new summons. If anything, we'll get more glamours, only unlike the Carbuncles they should be "role" locked (I mean, I'm down with anything, really, this approach just means they have less to animate per egi. For the Carbuncles it was a non-issue since it's the same sprite, different colors).
Expected sets: Shiva/Ramuh/Levi. Shiva in sword+shield form can be the tank, Ramuh is the caster, Levi is the melee. Also, Warring Triad. Sophia is caster, Zurvan is melee, Sephirot is tank.

2. HW's SMN storyline was basically us getting the Dreadwyrm trance, which is tightly tied to Demi Bahamut. As a result, I think chances of them giving us Demi glamours is nill.

They really should just make "skins" for every summon type. SE just has to swap some art assets instead of making new summons entirely and players get their new primal glamours. Everybody's a winner.

Say; Ifrit is a melee summon, Garuda is a caster, Titan is a tank and Bahamut is the Big Freaking Summon™.

Melee - Leviathan, Ravana, Zurvan
Caster - Shiva, Ramuh, Sophia, Lakshmi
Tank - Moggle Mog, Bismarck, Sephirot, Susano
BFS - Alexander, Odin, Shinryu

All I can think of off the top of my head.

It's not a proper Bahamut summon, it's about 1/16th the size of the real thing, just like all the other summons.

The reason I'm against all of this "add ALL THE PRIMALS" stuff is that it is WAY too much work on the devs for just one single job. And if other jobs don't get all of that special treatment, then no job should, including SMN. I would rather them spend time on balancing all the jobs instead of putting weeks into making SMN "look cooler" for a specific group of people. SMN isn't broken. It doesn't need a fix.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

The reason I'm against all of this "add ALL THE PRIMALS" stuff is that it is WAY too much work on the devs for just one single job.

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Some of them are already in the game, though. Ramuh's Arbiters are basically the egi model, and the boss of the level 70 Summoner job quest uses Sephirot-egis. I think Leviathan was datamined at one point, too, but I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Some of them are already in the game, though. Ramuh's Arbiters are basically the egi model, and the boss of the level 70 Summoner job quest uses Sephirot-egis. I think Leviathan was datamined at one point, too, but I could be wrong.

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Then they can just make them glamours like the carbuncles if they have to. There is no reason why they should have to make each one full-fledged pets with their own unique attacks as they'd even have to rebalance everything. Way too much work. Heck. Even egi glamours are too much work. I don't see SCHs getting new Faerie glamours. I don't see MCHs getting new turret glamours. Again, why should SMN get all this love and work put into them just for aesthetics? Think in SEs shoes.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

We need all primals as demi versions. A real summoner can summon all/almost all the summons, this is how it's always been in FF. Just let us select from a list (similar to role actions list).


It's about time they let me summon Byakko or Tsukuyomi

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Byakko isn't a Primal, though.

Personally I'm not asking for anything but glamours. I don't see the need for more entirely unique egis, especially since everyone would just figure out which one does the most DPS with the fewest headaches and ignore the rest anyway.

As for why this one job over any other.....why not? It's a speculation thread, we're not writing petitions or bombarding SE with demands or anything. There's nothing wrong with discussing things we'd like to see.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

These are two great examples for why they probably won't do that - Tsukuyomi - and Shiva - were only summoned into host bodies, we don't know if they can be summoned on their own, same goes for Susano. Now, Susano at least was said to be a Primal, but Byakko isn't. There's no lore reason for us to be able to summon him. And it's this nitpicking - you can summon this but can't summon that for some arbitrary reason - why they're not going to give us more.

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Just do something something the job tutor girl learns new techniques by studying auracite, enables us to summon the shapes of any things in our memories. But all primals up to SB is probably asking too much for the near future. More ARR stuff is fine for a start.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I want Warring Triad egis. Even if just as glamours. Turn Titan into Sephirot, Garuda into Sophia, and Ifrit into Zurvan.

And while it'd never happen, maybe Demi-Shinryuu as a glamour for Demi-Bahamut?

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This sounds like a change that could be made fairly easily given that Sephirot uses Earth, Sophia uses Wind, and Zurvan uses Fire. There are also already Sephirot-egi in-game, too.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

As for why this one job over any other.....why not?

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Because it would require Yoshi's team to use a lot(maybe even a ton) of their very limited resources on a single job and leaving the other 12 jobs with scraps or nothing. And all in the name of "I won't accept what SMN is, I want it to look cooler". You can't see what's wrong about all of this?

And yes this is just one thread within a sea of demands over the years by pretty much the same group of people who keep saying SMN isn't made correctly because of egis. Despite Yoshida already saying FFXIV's SMN is it's own unique SMN, people refuse to accept it.

Again, I wouldn't throw a fit if SMN got more egis because they have already been teased for a long, long time. But that should be it with SMN-love.

They invest a shit-ton of time into Perform. There's a debate to be had about cost vs. effect for either system (Perform vs. SMN glamours), but it's not like they haven't invested in "just the one job" before. And Perform keeps getting updates.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

They invest a shit-ton of time into Perform. There's a debate to be had about cost vs. effect for either system (Perform vs. SMN glamours), but it's not like they haven't invested in "just the one job" before. And Perform keeps getting updates.

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And I hate Perform. And I'm a BRD main. Perform is even a bigger waste of time than.. well anything. Only 0.001% of players use that. Luckily though, it is Soken and his team who create Perform since it's all musical. It doesn't use resources from the battle team.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I want Warring Triad egis. Even if just as glamours. Turn Titan into Sephirot, Garuda into Sophia, and Ifrit into Zurvan.

And while it'd never happen, maybe Demi-Shinryuu as a glamour for Demi-Bahamut?

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

This sounds like a change that could be made fairly easily given that Sephirot uses Earth, Sophia uses Wind, and Zurvan uses Fire. There are also already Sephirot-egi in-game, too.

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I would enjoy doing quest battle against those egis similar to how the old ones were acquired, which upgrades summ1 to soph, summ2 to seph, summ3 to zurv (but let's us use the glam system to revert them to garuda titan ifrit carby)

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

And I hate Perform. And I'm a BRD main. Perform is even a bigger waste of time than.. well anything. Only 0.001% of players use that. Luckily though, it is Soken and his team who create Perform since it's all musical. It doesn't use resources from the battle team.

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Instead the battle team makes Ultimate fights, which the majority of the player base will never complete.

I sort of figured that Shiva would count as any summon because she has her whole stances system in the actual fight: she has sword and shield for tanking, the ice rod for casting... what she lacks is melee, but you could just use the sword only, or the bow for that.

Adding new full-capability egis would only amount to bloat, but the glamours for Shiva/Ramuh/Leviathan should have been up and running years ago.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Instead the battle team makes Ultimate fights, which the majority of the player base will never complete.

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This. If we want to go with how many players play what, we could remove tanks from the game, I feel like. But this game likes to cater to niches, and regardless of how one feels about any certain job-exclusive content, the fact remains that it's there.
I don't think we're getting new summons, and anyone who's hoping for it should really lower their expectations. But egi glamours are whole different ball-game where they don't have to add new battle logic, just animations. Plus it's one of those things they dug themselves a hole by promising, so there's also that.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

They invest a shit-ton of time into Perform. There's a debate to be had about cost vs. effect for either system (Perform vs. SMN glamours), but it's not like they haven't invested in "just the one job" before. And Perform keeps getting updates.

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Perform wasn't really done for Bard's sake though, by dev accounts Perform was developed more or less to see whether they could, and then when they realized they could implement it, decided it worked best as a job action for the song-playing class.

Even if they do decide to look into doing more stuff with primals, there's no guarantee they'd bolt it onto the Summoner class as opposed to some other game mechanic. Just take a look at magicite finding its way into HoH.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Instead the battle team makes Ultimate fights, which the majority of the player base will never complete.

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One of the battle teams worked on Ultimate. One team worked on Binding Coils Ultimate and another team worked on Ultima Ultimate (and from how it sounds, it seems to just be one person who is designing all of the mechanics and such, since they seem to take all the credit). Only new things going into Ultimate are mechanics (mostly reused, some new) some attacks (most are reused. Some are new) and a stage.

it really makes you marvel at FFXI more when you realize FFXI could give you full size versions of carby, ifrit, garuda, titan, fenrir, ramuh, and diabolos. A game that worked on a ps2.

Idk what new egis would even add, only titan really has any extra role that removing the egi and putting the abilities on the hotbar wouldn't be ok.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

These are two great examples for why they probably won't do that - Tsukuyomi - and Shiva - were only summoned into host bodies, we don't know if they can be summoned on their own, same goes for Susano. Now, Susano at least was said to be a Primal, but Byakko isn't. There's no lore reason for us to be able to summon him. And it's this nitpicking - you can summon this but can't summon that for some arbitrary reason - why they're not going to give us more.

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Basic primal lore says they would be summonable without a host body. The summoner in question just needs a defined appearance in mind during the summoning.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Basic primal lore says they would be summonable without a host body. The summoner in question just needs a defined appearance in mind during the summoning.

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Tsukuyoki began fading when Yotsuyu's determination/grief wavered despite there being enough crystals for her to power up after the adds phase. I'm not saying they can't go "well yeah but you can still summon an egi if you wanted", just that they have a good case of also saying "but those are too complicated" and hiding behind it.

Moot point either way though, Byakko and whatever other Four Lords we'll fight still cement the point I was trying to make.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Basic primal lore says they would be summonable without a host body. The summoner in question just needs a defined appearance in mind during the summoning.

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I don't think so... Shiva was only able to be summoned because Ysayle believed she was the reincarnation Shiva (and if we summon Shiva, then it's disrespecting both Hraesvelgr and Ysayle). The other one I don't think can even be summoned at all unless we have that mirror (and honestly, why would anyone want to summon a heartless monster?). That's just the full forms, though.

So what you're saying is that it's impossible for literally anyone else to summon either Shiva/Tsukiyomi, even though the basic rules of primal summoning dictate otherwise? Sure they would more than likely look different to the incarnations we've already seen, but it isn't completely outside of the realms of possibility.

My reply earlier was directed at the comment about us not knowing if it's possible to summon without a host body, when everything we've learned about primals indicates otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I don't think so... Shiva was only able to be summoned because Ysayle believed she was the reincarnation Shiva (and if we summon Shiva, then it's disrespecting both Hraesvelgr and Ysayle). The other one I don't think can even be summoned at all unless we have that mirror (and honestly, why would anyone want to summon a heartless monster?). That's just the full forms, though.

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A primal is merely a thought manifested. The mirror for Tsukuyomi or the host for both of those and Thordan...Those are irrelevant.

Thordan wanted to become primal, that's why he BECAME the primal. He didn't want to summon one.
Ysayle wanted to soothe the grief of Hraesvelg and was willing to offer herself for that cause. That's why she turned into Shiva.
And "Tsuyu" became Tsukuyomi because she wanted to take revenge personally and the mirror simply was a focus to direct her to the goal.

If someone else wanted to summon Shiva, but not want to become her, it would succeed. Shiva so summoned would also be however the summoner made it to be. Like the quest with Titan summoned by the young kobolt. His grief made Titan, the protector of kobolds, harm kobolds...and try to wreck even more destruction onto many more kobolds. That's because they are not creatures per se...Just the thoughts of what one believes in given form and power by the crystals, with their nature twisting those wishes to suck the land dry of ether.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

A primal is merely a thought manifested. The mirror for Tsukuyomi or the host for both of those and Thordan...Those are irrelevant.

Thordan wanted to become primal, that's why he BECAME the primal. He didn't want to summon one.
Ysayle wanted to soothe the grief of Hraesvelg and was willing to offer herself for that cause. That's why she turned into Shiva.
And "Tsuyu" became Tsukuyomi because she wanted to take revenge personally and the mirror simply was a focus to direct her to the goal.

If someone else wanted to summon Shiva, but not want to become her, it would succeed. Shiva so summoned would also be however the summoner made it to be. Like the quest with Titan summoned by the young kobolt. His grief made Titan, the protector of kobolds, harm kobolds...and try to wreck even more destruction onto many more kobolds. That's because they are not creatures per se...Just the thoughts of what one believes in given form and power by the crystals, with their nature twisting those wishes to suck the land dry of ether.

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Agreed, who says we can't see the spirit of Ysayle in a quest or one of her followers who teach us to summon shiva. This is a game anything is possible. And it's time that the other summons actually look like summons, sure bahamut got some complaints but overall everyone is happy with him. I think we should aim for the original 6 first since they relate to summoner so deeply, then perhaps add more glamours like a tsukuyomi glamour for shiva, and alexander glamour for bahamut.

Actually thinking about it, I would really love to see Ysayle come back as a spirit to offer us a shiva trial to obtain her similar to how we obtain ramuh in FF9 that was pretty epic.

If bard could get so much love, I think summoner could get a little loving too, heck if you want you can even sell some primal glamours in the cash shop, but the ARR elemental primals and bahamut should definitely be a free part of the job.

Asking for more distinct egis is a waste of time. Even with three, there's one never used, and another used 90% of the time. Any new one added would either be obsolete out of the box, or become the new always-use egi, sending the rest to the bench.

Better to focus on adding new egi glamours, a request much more likely to receive attention. Development time for adding a new model that performs existing abilities is a lot less than creating a whole new egi with new abilities that need to be tested and balanced.

That said, the fact that we got a bunch Carbuncles for our original batch - all of which have the same animations, many of which were already created thanks to the ACN class - makes me fearful that that is all we'll ever see. If, after such a long delay, they were only able to come up with ONE new egi model, it bodes ill for our prospects of seeing any more.

If SMN were to get anything dealing with the other summons, it should be akin to classic FF summoning. Meaning you summon the egi (preferably bahamut-egi sized) for a single attack, and then it leaves. If they wanted just 3, the Warring Triad would be absolutely perfect. If 4, add in Shinryu-egi.

bards get to play real music..

give us summoners something too, .. let us glamour our eggis with minions of our choice xD

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If SMN were to get anything dealing with the other summons, it should be akin to classic FF summoning. Meaning you summon the egi (preferably bahamut-egi sized) for a single attack, and then it leaves. If they wanted just 3, the Warring Triad would be absolutely perfect. If 4, add in Shinryu-egi.

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The single attack summon should be like using the Magicite in HoH.

I would actually prefer to have the glamours and accompanying animations instead, since the trinity of egis is pretty much balanced for all intended purposes. Like if you switch Garuda to a Ramuh egi all attack animations will have a thunder animation. What would be cool is if they introduced Alexander "Judgement Trance" to complement Bahamut "Dreadwyrm Trance". I imagine it's auto attacks would be aoes and it's final move Divine Judgment would be a larger aoe with no split damage. Bahamut for single target and Alexander for mobs.

I'd much rather see SE fix the clunky phase based rotation SMN's kit currently uses rather than add more egis. If they want to do the latter I agree they should be glamours. Probably as micro-transactions too, if people really want them so badly. But imo it's such a low priority compared to fixing how SMN operates now. Seriously, there are so many QoL issues that it's insane. DWT's changes in 4.1 were a bandaid and everyone knows it.

Grimoire, you overstate the overall clunk and are favouring a derail of this thread in favour of pushing a personal agenda rather than keeping to the topic. We aren't 4.0 SMN and by the look of things per your suggestions, I'm skeptical that you actively play the job in its current form. The only points I can consider agreeing on is pertaining to how the Enhanced Enkindle trait with Further Ruin procs is poor design and Aether stack clunk in general, however, these have been complaints shared by many since SB was very first released.

Re: OP I am excited about the possibilities of where Demi-Eikons will lead us in the future as Bahamut was certainly a step in the right direction for that feel of what is Summoner. However, people tend to be splintered in how they feel about carrying on further down the Dreadwyrm bias vs cultivating other kinds of Primal aether in favour of bringing forth others. I'd love to see a variety and it's neat what they've shown with the magicite unleashing Primal Rage from our own WoL's memories, but I also have no qualms if design, later on, goes down the path of Demi-Bahamut even getting a trait for Lohs Daih, channeling that raw Meracydian pain and becoming Golden. That form is one amazing character model, it's so much more detailed and pretty than the standard Bahamut Prime variant for Demi.