selling wins

i don't really see selling wins for gil as much of a problem. i had to do it at launch when titan hm was really bad with the server load and i because i can't play controller on PS3 to save my life for twintania before PS4 came out. isn't this the very definition of RMT?

I see it on my data center's party finders all day. I reached out wondering myself how you would exchange gil cross server. I was kind of shocked that his response was paypal. how does this not get reported as RMT? i know they don't really take outside sources as evidence, but isn't this just blatant RMT?

The players name is on that picture.
You shouldn't post that, for your own accounts sake, no matter if you think a rule is being broken or not. It's not on us to decide.

Trading anything in game for anything out of the game is rmt... they dont get busted because the gms dont go beyond basic chat in their rmt investigations

As long as they don't mention real money in the game, they can get away with it. SE doesn't accept outside evidence because it can be easily tempered with.

And yeah it's fairly obvious that if they're data-center PF, it's probably not for gil...but officially, if they don't say anything about the real money, SE can't just assume that it wasn't just a mistake (after all, a "world" PF for gil would be completely legit, so a player being investigated would just claim it was datacenter-wide by accident).

:/

Just is how it is.

PS: Get another picture with the player names taken out (even if that picture wasn't yours. Download it, edit it, upload it). Mentioning names is against forum rules and SE can be super harsh with banning people sometimes.

Alright, i didn't know, i'll just distill it down to text. i rarely use this

It is RMT. SE is afraid or banning players that sell content, because those are players that will continue playing. Likewise, the people buying those runs are likely players that will stick around - and I'd be willing to bet if you have money lying around to pay for wins, you probably buy random crap from the cash-shop all the time.

I mean, this is all my speculation.

Unless we see players actively unsub with this being the main factor, I don't think SE will act on this and enforce it's own rules.

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Originally Posted by ThaiChi

Alright, i didn't know, i'll just distill it down to text. i rarely use this

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Yeah that should be fine. Even just scribbling out the name in paint or something is usually enough.
SE does what they can about rule breakers, and unfortunately, calling someone out by name here on the Lodestone is much more immediately confirmable by SE than it is about off-game RMT.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Yeah that should be fine. Even just scribbling out the name in paint or something is usually enough.
SE does what they can about rule breakers, and unfortunately, calling someone out by name here on the Lodestone is much more immediately confirmable by SE than it is about off-game RMT.

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Hold on. If they can't use discord chat as evidence, why would a discord name get anyone banned? That doesn't make much sense, I mean the argument goes both ways.

Just try to talk to them and get them to admit you need to buy something with cash and send it to them, then report them.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

Hold on. If they can't use discord chat as evidence, why would a discord name get anyone banned? That doesn't make much sense, I mean the argument goes both ways.

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It was a screenshot of Party Finder.

I assume this is in light of the recent plebbit thread about a certain world first FC from Gilgamesh selling stuff for ridiculous prices? Now were did I put that "RMT; botting; hacking; win trading - I sleep. Calling someone stupid or posting lewd mod pics on twitter - real shit" meme pic again....

It's unfortunate that they don't seem to care about this at all (Though not that surprising considering how half-hearted their efforts at curbing the botting issues are).

It should be painfully obvious that RMT is involved when you can't trade gil cross-world, plus they're trying to get you discuss it somewhere outside of the game.

well, in these cases it's not just for Gil, but real money (like 80 USD for Byakko and 1200 USD for Ultimate Ultima) and usually involves giving them access to your account to clear it for you

Considering that it's against the ToS to give your account credentials to anyone, the people buying these clears for real money are sabotaging themselves if the raiders decided to take the money and flee.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

I assume this is in light of the recent plebbit thread about a certain world first FC from Gilgamesh selling stuff for ridiculous prices? Now were did I put that "RMT; botting; hacking; win trading - I sleep. Calling someone stupid or posting lewd mod pics on twitter - real shit" meme pic again....

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World second, please ;)

Seriously though, this has been a thing for years now. I've sold content for gil going right back to Titan and yes, I've had people offer me money going as far back as SCOB (Which I refused fyi). Do I think it's a problem? I'll admit I'm not especially keen on pvp win trading but carries? It takes some clutching at straws to find any real issues that could be caused by it.

It's also kind of unfair to pin this on Elysium alone, Hardcores have selling teams, midcores have selling teams. This isn't limited to world progression raiders alone.

The fact that people could easily just decide to scam you out of your money is definitely another reason why they should be discouraging the practice.

This isn't like typical RMT where it's fully automated and difficult to keep under control, so there's really no excuse.

I have no problem if people sell primal runs for Gil. But as soon as money is involved or its about a fight where you can only win if all 8 are top thus they need to pilot the others account, they have taken it too far. Selling it for money is RMT and using another account is also against the ToS. I kinda wonder if some of those top raiders are just angry that they get one Ultimate less because it means one less money input and if they want it stay synched so they can continue to sell clears..(And no I dont mean all top raiders, but those that sell them for money)

Now I wonder if those that sell them and are in the world race are just doing it to get money instead of doing it for the challenge?

And selling PVP ranks is bad for the rest of us because that are less people that can get to the top thus less people that can try to get the mounts in the normal legal way..

So, I noticed this just showed up recently: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...d5018ee8fc7b01

Between the reddit post about people selling UwU clears, JP bloggers bringing up the reddit post, and this post being made, I doubt it's a coincidence.

Of course, this doesn't actually mean anything is going to change, considering how they decided to be less transparent about the number of bans being issued for botting after people complained on a large scale, yet none of the regulars on my server have been touched still, and the number of bots has actually gone up significantly instead.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

World second, please ;)

Seriously though, this has been a thing for years now. I've sold content for gil going right back to Titan and yes, I've had people offer me money going as far back as SCOB (Which I refused fyi). Do I think it's a problem? I'll admit I'm not especially keen on pvp win trading but carries? It takes some clutching at straws to find any real issues that could be caused by it.

It's also kind of unfair to pin this on Elysium alone, Hardcores have selling teams, midcores have selling teams. This isn't limited to world progression raiders alone.

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The real issue is not selling run for Gils, but selling runs for real money, wich is against the TOS

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...d5018ee8fc7b01 Dated June 18, 2018.

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We would like to remind our players that any actions relating to the trading of real money for in-game benefits or services (commonly referred to as “RMT”) are prohibited under the Terms of Service.

We will take stringent disciplinary action against any accounts we confirm are involved in RMT, up to and including a permanent ban for infringing accounts. Players should take care to steer clear of any activity that violates the Terms of Service.

Should you witness actions related to RMT, such as advertisements within the game leading to external services via Say, Shout, Tell, and Yell, you can report them by right clicking the character name in the chat log and selecting the menu [Report] -> [Report RMT Activity].

To report RMT related actions outside of chat, you can visit the [Support Desk] menu, select [Contact Us] and [Report Cheating] for the Special Task Force team to investigate.

We appreciate the continued effort of our community to help us make FINAL FANTASY XIV a better place for everyone to enjoy.

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"To report RMT related actions outside of chat, you can visit the [Support Desk] menu, select [Contact Us] and [Report Cheating] for the Special Task Force team to investigate."

SO they would investigate if Paypal is involved or even Reddit (with screen as evidence)?

They've already stated that they accept absolutely no third-party evidence due to fears that it could be altered.

Though honestly, that's probably one of the main reasons why almost nobody ever gets banned for illicit activity.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Now I wonder if those that sell them and are in the world race are just doing it to get money instead of doing it for the challenge?

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I’ll debunk this tangent right now. I’ve raided with a good portion of the world first team over the years and I can promise you first hand that they are not in this for the money. If they were, there are frankly far better options for players of their talent and motivation. The progression raid scene is upset about the lack of a third Ultimate because it means we face another massive raid content lull akin to the end of HW. But that’s a topic for another thread.

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Originally Posted by Celef

The real issue is not selling run for Gils, but selling runs for real money, wich is against the TOS

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So I assume you’ll be just as up in arms when we get a thread about all those naughty TOS breaking Bards using perform to play content protected under copyright?

There’s no denying that the rules are there in black and white, but let’s not lose sight of the simple fact that they are interpreted in many different shades of grey by all levels of the playerbase. Anywhere from the aforementioned performing bard, through those using mods for their tumblr screenshots and onwards to those using various parsers, screencapture and other such software hooking into the client in some manner. Even those using colourful language amongst their trusted friends. Alas, it’s not for us to decide where the line is between bending and abusing the rules.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

So I assume you’ll be just as up in arms when we get a thread about all those naughty TOS breaking Bards using perform to play content protected under copyright?

There’s no denying that the rules are there in black and white, but let’s not lose sight of the simple fact that they are interpreted in many different shades of grey by all levels of the playerbase. Anywhere from the aforementioned performing bard, through those using mods for their tumblr screenshots and onwards to those using various parsers, screencapture and other such software hooking into the client in some manner. Even those using colourful language amongst their trusted friends. Alas, it’s not for us to decide where the line is between bending and abusing the rules.

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You sound pretty biased. Likening this issue with bards playing copyright music is such a strawman argument, you are really showing your hand.

Tos breaking is tos breaking right? ;)

My point is, berate them if you think it’s immoral or such. But playing the TOS card is a bit silly

Also silly is not being able to show who said individual is because you will get banned.
Clearly these people are crooks and when they get peoples real money would most likely not even give you a clear run of whatever content.
Maybe i am just Iron Fist but it reminds me of the law where i live, minors if they commit any crime cannot have their name mentioned which is obsurd

I find it strange how people are fine with run selling for gil but not rl cash. Especially considering most people who could pay with gil anyway are probably buying that gil to begin with. Selling runs in general is a problem because it poisons the well (duty completed party finders) but the fault lies with the buyers not the sellers. It isn't really that big a deal though honestly. 90% of the community can't be bothered to raid so if some guy pays some group to clear for him in an attempt to seem cool then how does it hurt most of the community that doesn't care to begin with. RMT in most games is extremely destructive to the playerbase and that game's economy but in this game that just isn't the case. At worst gil buying influences the crafter wars but most crafters involved make more gil than the gil sellers do anyway. I don't think run selling is anywhere near as destructive and it's just the hot topic for this week for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Tos breaking is tos breaking right? ;)

My point is, berate them if you think it’s immoral or such. But playing the TOS card is a bit silly

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Engaging in RMT activity for $1200 USD is not the same as a young teenage boy playing a cover of Carly Rae Jepsen, "Call Me Maybe."

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Originally Posted by Endeleon

You sound pretty biased. Likening this issue with bards playing copyright music is such a strawman argument, you are really showing your hand.

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Not really. Breaking ToS is breaking it. Just because you are againts people selling content for gil, doesnt mean what you do with your bard instrument is ''legal'' in the game. Many people break the rules for playing copyrighted songs in the game. If you really want to be the guy who wants to talk about being flawless and not breaking any ToS, might as well bring that copyright music.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Engaging in RMT activity for $1200 USD is not the same as a young teenage boy playing a cover of Carly Rae Jepsen, "Call Me Maybe."

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It is, because both are breaking the ToS. Just because you like doing it, doesnt mean you arent breaking the ToS. Its the same with mods. Many use them and it is againts the ToS. Just because you like it, doesnt you arent breaking the ToS. So yes it's exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

It is, because both are breaking the ToS. Just because you like doing it, doesnt mean you arent breaking the ToS. Its the same with mods. Many use them and it is againts the ToS. Just because you like it, doesnt you arent breaking the ToS. So yes it's exactly the same.

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That's a terrible argument. That's like saying Murder is the same as Shoplifting. They are both breaking the law................

While, both RMT and Copyrighted Performance are both against ToS and I agree that, if someone is going to play the ToS card, people should be willing to discuss what is a more impactful violation.

Calling them "exactly the same" is willful ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

That's a terrible argument. That's like saying Murder is the same as Shoplifting. They are both breaking the law................

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In her defence, they ARE both breaking the law in your example. ToS are ToS. Now, I agree, there's varying levels of violations (like you say, murder is worse than shoplifting), but in the most literal sense, they are both breaking the law.

Now, performance is also a pretty serious violation due to it being related to making profit off copyrighted content (which will get a swarm of lawyers after SE faster than anything, since SE indirectly profit off the performance because it's in their game). But something that just puts the UI on your keyboard via lighting is harmless for example, though still against ToS. Or someone using a parser to keep track of their numbers to try and improve. Now, RMT however is very destructive, I won't lie.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's unfortunate that they don't seem to care about this at all (Though not that surprising considering how half-hearted their efforts at curbing the botting issues are).

It should be painfully obvious that RMT is involved when you can't trade gil cross-world, plus they're trying to get you discuss it somewhere outside of the game.

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Rule #1 with auction sites and dating sites, (because people like to avoid fees, also lets them get scammed) "Never communicate with someone outside the system, never send money to someone by (cash/stamps/western union/gift cards/etc)"

That's like the biggest red flag anyone with half a brain should notice. If you're directed to to do something outside the game, and they're not willing to communicate within the game, then it's a certainly a scam.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Not really. Breaking ToS is breaking it. Just because you are againts people selling content for gil, doesnt mean what you do with your bard instrument is ''legal'' in the game. Many people break the rules for playing copyrighted songs in the game. If you really want to be the guy who wants to talk about being flawless and not breaking any ToS, might as well bring that copyright music.


It is, because both are breaking the ToS. Just because you like doing it, doesnt mean you arent breaking the ToS. Its the same with mods. Many use them and it is againts the ToS. Just because you like it, doesnt you arent breaking the ToS. So yes it's exactly the same.

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This is exactly right. All things under the ToS have equal weight. Internally SE may decide that people yelling F bombs in the middle of a crowded area in the game is somehow worse than 80 bots standing behind a wall of the GC building.

Admittedly, I really don't care what-so-ever about 'music cover' type of infringement, because nobody in their right mind would prefer to listen to a video game character playing a cover of a copyrighted song over buying the the song or listening to it on Spotify/Pandora/Apple Music. Like it requires a certain level PR pearl clutching to go after people playing these things in the game, yet they (JASRAC) do.

There is plenty of evidence in this on "other forums and tools", but I understand why it cannot be used as evidence since photos can be tampered with.

Video clips, on the other hand, are nearly impossible to edit without it not looking like it was tampered with. I wish they'd accept those because trust me...as someone with years of experience editing videos, it is 1) a royal pain to do so 2) easily discernible.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

So, I noticed this just showed up recently: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...d5018ee8fc7b01

Between the reddit post about people selling UwU clears, JP bloggers bringing up the reddit post, and this post being made, I doubt it's a coincidence.

Of course, this doesn't actually mean anything is going to change, considering how they decided to be less transparent about the number of bans being issued for botting after people complained on a large scale, yet none of the regulars on my server have been touched still, and the number of bots has actually gone up significantly instead.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...d5018ee8fc7b01 Dated June 18, 2018.

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Well... That "such as advertisements within the game leading to external services" point seems to imply that these may actually be investigated...

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Originally Posted by ThaiChi

but isn't this just blatant RMT?

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It is. I think one of the reasons why SE don't really crack down on this particular form of RMT is because it doesn't really impact the game itself very much.

Someone buying a boss kill with real cash doesn't give them the advantages buying gil would. It doesn't really affect server economy, it doesn't feed house flipping and it's not supported by botting (yes I am aware some high profile raid teams do use some shady things like botting to support themselves but my point is you don't need to do that to be in a position to sell boss kills).

That being said it doesn't mean the person who got paid won't buy gil with that money, but they could just as easily be paying their rent or buying a new graphics card with it. I think if those players wanted gil for boss kills, they would just ask for gil instead of real cash.

Furthermore buying a boss kill doesn't deprive someone else of a boss kill. There aren't a limited amount of attempts to kill a boss or a limited amount of times it can drop loot. Unlike housing, boss kills and their loot aren't a finite number.

When players talk about this issue they are against it because of their own values and/or are angry with SE being selectively against RMT, not because they have been personally negatively affected by it. So conversation is closer to criticism than raging salt with threat of unsubbing.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly disagree with any form of RMT and I do think SE should do something about it. But at the same time I can see why it's not appearing to be a priority for them. It frankly isn't causing enough problems or drama for them to care enough.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I’ll debunk this tangent right now. I’ve raided with a good portion of the world first team over the years and I can promise you first hand that they are not in this for the money. If they were, there are frankly far better options for players of their time and motivation. The progression raid scene is upset about the lack of a third Ultimate because it means we face another massive raid content lull akin to the end of HW. But that’s a topic for another thread.

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Fixed that for ya

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

So I assume you’ll be just as up in arms when we get a thread about all those naughty TOS breaking Bards using perform to play content protected under copyright?

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Well, yeah ^^"
Call me a paladin but breaking TOS is breaking TOS ^^"

One of the reasons I can't stand raiders is due to this. They always talk so much crap about gitting gud and skill, and then they turn around, and do things like this. Its always the same in every game, the public face and the private face. And when they get confronted with it, they always try to justify it.

Look, in the past mercing/paying gil for clears was only tolerated because it was assumed you legitimately earned the gil via crafting, endgame playing, etc. Even then it was kind of eh, but games in the past had a huge time component that often meant you had to do a week's work of prerequisite grinding for a hard fight and 1/24 chance at a drop. In this game though all content is accessible with the least amount of busywork; you can jump in and access the fight right away, and the rewards are not strenuous or hard to get.

The fact though that people not only are making rl money on this, but they think zero is wrong with it, is worrisome and really denigrates the idea of the game and the raid community.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

One of the reasons I can't stand raiders is due to this. They always talk so much crap about gitting gud and skill, and then they turn around, and do things like this. Its always the same in every game, the public face and the private face. And when they get confronted with it, they always try to justify it.

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99% of raiders do not engage in this behaviour at all. Don't paint all raiders in the same colour.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

99% of raiders do not engage in this behaviour at all. Don't paint all raiders in the same colour.

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I call bull on this. enough do it or support it that the culture is somehow shifted to where people are actually seriously defending this practice. The change is what gets me; i expect world firsters to be corrupt as hell; the big HNM shells on FFXI all botted, I doubt its much different here. But that thread surprised me in just how many people thought it wasn't an issue whatsoever.