Lack of midcore content

Hi,

I would like to know if other player share these feeling I have regarding the lack of "midcore" content.



What I mean by that is content that isn't as faceroll as expert/regular8man/25man/sewer nor as demanding as Savage.

In other words, around Trial difficulty (Thordan/Shinryu not included).

I feel like I currently have very little interesting thing to do in the game.

Dungeons and regular 8man in general are beyond boring. Like, they're fun the first day and then it's the same boring thing you can do everyday/week for that daily/weekly reward. But there's just 0 challenge.

25man raid are slightly better, they're pretty that's for sure and fight are usually quite funny but again, once done it's over for the week and it's not like it requires much skill to complete them (since you only need a handful of good enough player to carry the rest)

Only the trial are hardenough to not be too faceroll yet simple enough you don't need to pour a lot of time to get a kill. only problem being, we get one boss like that per patch (luckily tsukuyomi is a fun fight)

I know the upcoming PalaceoftheDead 2.0 is coming, I'm actually eager to try it but once this is done, then what? no more no more floors until 5.X serie.

I've been watching my bf play WoW recently and he explained me the concept of Mythic dungeon, for those who don't know, it's basically your regular 4man (5 in WoW) with enhanced difficulty. The catch there is that there is virtually no limit to the difficulty. Basically everytime you do it you get a key to do it in a harder version.
This makes this content both casual for those who can't go too high, midcore for those who can clear medium/hard difficulty and quite a challenge for the best of the best.
Best part, every week the chosen dungeon is random so you get a new experience everyweek.

FF14 dungeon bosses usually have interesting mechanic, the only issue is that nothing can really kill you unless you try really hard.
I'm not really asking for a copy past of Mythic Dungeon (altough it'd be nice but having something fresh and different everyweek wouldn't hurt.

So, anyone feels the same regarding the lack of content? (midcore especially)

IMO the first two tiers of savage have been extremely midcore all of Stormblood. I always just pug em up as if I would an ex trial and it usually takes the same amount of time to clear. Shinryu and Thordan were outliers even compared to savage, more like 2.5s or arguably even on the same difficulty as 3. I think there's an equal amount of MC as harder content, it's casual content that there is disproportionately too much of. At the very least they could add hard mode dungeons or something. I know it's a casual game but still...

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

IMO the first two tiers of savage have been extremely midcore all of Stormblood. I always just pug em up as if I would an ex trial and it usually takes the same amount of time to clear. Shinryu and Thordan were outliers even compared to savage, more like 2.5s or arguably even on the same difficulty as 3. I think there's an equal amount of MC as harder content, it's casual content that there is disproportionately too much of. At the very least they could add hard mode dungeons or something. I know it's a casual game but still...

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I agree the first two tier of savage are rather easy but again, "it's only two bosses you do once a week"
Unless you're extremely unlucky with your group, that's done within 30-45min when server reset on tuesday

Tsukuyomi is a great fight. It's simplistic but creative. It's easy but not too boring.

Byakko on the other hand, goddamn. That 2minute interlude you can't skip zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZ. They should really let you be able to skip it if you can dps the tiger down in time.

Unpopular opinion but I really enjoyed Shinryu and Thordan. It's nice to get a couple of trials that aren't a complete face roll.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

IMO the first two tiers of savage have been extremely midcore all of Stormblood. I always just pug em up as if I would an ex trial and it usually takes the same amount of time to clear. Shinryu and Thordan were outliers even compared to savage, more like 2.5s or arguably even on the same difficulty as 3. I think there's an equal amount of MC as harder content, it's casual content that there is disproportionately too much of. At the very least they could add hard mode dungeons or something. I know it's a casual game but still...

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I agree the first two tier of savage are rather easy and exactly have the kind of difficulty i'm refering there as "midcore"

But unfortunately, "it's only two bosses you do once a week"
Unless you're extremely unlucky with your group, that's done within 30-45min when server reset on tuesday

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I agree with Lala Yuki, everything up to Sigma 2.0 savage is "casual" content, but then again 3.0/4.0 are not hardcore by any stretch and the hardest part is finding a group.

Sure the game could use more extreme/savage fights but you also need to push yourself because savage is the content you are looking for. .

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Oh I know that too well, I used to be in a very hardcore guild in WoW cata (before university and "life" kicked in), the problem I currently have is that the people I play with just aren't savage player. (especially my bf)
So... I somewhat progress slowly trying to make them come with me (doesn't work all that well)

And i'm just stuck in that eternal loop of

friends: there's nothing to do
me : we could do os6 ^^?
friends: no fuck pf people just keep dying on stupid stuff
me: yeah.... but when it's done you can join kill group and it's faster :D
friends: don't care. let's do expert
me : yay... expert #cry

As much as this is very personal issue, I'm pretty sure many player would kinda enjoy more stuff in between savage and expert

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Originally Posted by Rockette

Tsukuyomi is a great fight. It's simplistic but creative. It's easy but not too boring.

Byakko on the other hand, goddamn. That 2minute interlude you can't skip zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZ. They should really let you be able to skip it if you can dps the tiger down in time.

Unpopular opinion but I really enjoyed Shinryu and Thordan. It's nice to get a couple of trials that aren't a complete face roll.

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I kow right! Tsuku is just an amazing fight (dps check is easy so you can easily carry new player too)
I personally really loved Byakko, but I agree the interlude could have been more exciting, perhaps if it wasn't scripted and actually something random.
And I love shinryu but god finding a group for that boss is hard.

A savage tier comes out every 6 months and the first two floors are easier than the two primal fights that we get at the even and odd number patches so there isn't more hardcore content in the game than midcore either.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

he problem I currently have is that the people I play with just aren't savage player. (especially my bf)
So... I somewhat progress slowly trying to make them come with me (doesn't work all that well)

And i'm just stuck in that eternal loop of

friends: there's nothing to do
me : we could do os6 ^^?
friends: no fuck pf people just keep dying on stupid stuff
me: yeah.... but when it's done you can join kill group and it's faster :D
friends: don't care. let's do expert
me : yay... expert #cry

As much as this is very personal issue, I'm pretty sure many player would kinda enjoy more stuff in between savage and expert

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Sounds like the problem is you and your friends have different expectations.

If you can somehow convince them to do Tsuku Ex, but not O6S, that's just strange. O6S is not insanely more difficult than Tsuku Ex. Actually, I would say O6S is actually easier than Tsuku Ex because at least no one has to remember sides based on text. And if they don't want to do TSuku Ex, even if they did add more trials, I fear your friends may not want to do them anyway.

If you take your friends out of the equation, you could just go PF O5/O6S - or join normal raids using the Duty Finder (which, given the various ..."skill" level...of people in Duty Finder, can sometimes be more difficult than their Savage counterparts - nothing like having people who get 6 vulnerability stacks in kefka normal)

You can also do POTD 180-200, or do old EX trial fights synced at min ilvl.

Next month there will be the new HoH(as you know, which will have the difficult parts starting much earlier on), and the Monster Hunter collaboration which has already been stated to require a level 70, and may have 2 difficulties. This hints at a trial or something similar.

I feel like se is really stuck in a hard place here. No single price of content on its own will make everyone happy.

Originally with coil, casual players were upset they were missing out on key story by not being raiders. So we got casual mode raid. Then the mid-hard core raid complained that fcob was too easy. Then we got Gordias. Gordias was way too hard for majority of the player base so they tuned savage fights back down again. Now they are too easy and the mid-hard core are bored again. So we get ultimate. People complained ultimate was too much so we got the decision of 2 ultimates per expansion. Now we are complaining about not enough ultimate.

It's the song that never ends.

Overall, yes I think there is now a lack of midcore content. But I don't think SE can put anymore in with out vocal casual players complaining content is too unaccessible.

The biggest issue here is that easy and hard are subjective. For someone with bad reflexes, dodging is hard. For someone with a poor rotation, DPS checks are hard. For someone with few friends, finding a decent group in the first place is hard. There's no one answer to making content more accessible.

The real answer is to have a bunch of different options for progression (e.g. FFXI where gods, Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul, Salvage, etc all existed side by side), but that's not a terribly realistic scenario in this game.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

sbip.

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Do not under estimate the power that the word "savage" can have on someone

I've had some really bad experiences doing Ex trials that were reminiscent of playing with people in Call of Duty on the Xbox 360 and world of warcraft. I've had people throw "soy boy" around in chat along with insults and political garbage or just being plane passive aggressive. Often this is paired with people marking a group as a clear group instead of a farm group when SE implemented the "Duty Completion" flag among other issues.

The problem right now is that SE wants to drip feed content and put a carrot on a stick to get people into that content. They aren't releasing Anemos because they want everyone who wants a weapon doing Tsukiyomi EX first, which sounds backwards and basically trying to force people back into the old raid guild mindset of 2009-2012. I don't want to feel like I need to start chugging 5 hour energy drinks after work to spend time grinding ex content just to make sure I don't miss the wave on them. The entire reason people like anemos is that it's easy to step into, can be done when you're not at your best, and lets you make progress incrementally. EX content is all or nothing and promotes some really toxic experiences.

I mean, they are hold back the new endless dungeon, too, and that probably has the same hard mode floors past the top like POTD did, which is basically mid-core content.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Do not under estimate the power that the word "savage" can have on someone

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Tell them to get over the word lol. O7S and O8S are definitely harder than Extreme trials. O5S can also be harder/easier just depending on how good people are at learning and dealing with mechs (specifically remembering Remorse, which has wiped plenty of PF groups I've had the leisure of joining in for funsies). If this is the kind of mech they can handle, then it's also an extreme level. If it's not, then it's a savage level.

But not being willing to try just because of the word and then they tell you there's nothing to do, well that's just strange.

But you do have the other options of doing old trials synced, as stated in the post.

And if you really can't, and you're all drinking age...Well, I've had a lot of fun doing Normals while at least 4 people in my party were intoxicated ;) Dealing with people messing up because of drunkenness can add a real level of difficulty.

I thought savage was midcore.

There needs to be harder 4 man content if anything.
I can barely stomach the regular dungeon runs. @_@

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I thought savage was midcore.

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It used to be. They've tuned it way down since creator. Now the first two turns are barely harder than an average primal.

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Originally Posted by Rockette

Overall, yes I think there is now a lack of midcore content. But I don't think SE can put anymore in with out vocal casual players complaining content is too unaccessible.

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I feel like they need to up the difficulty and if the vocal casual players start complaining, just have Yoshi P reply to them saying "git gud, it ain't changing". Heck, I've even said in another thread how I feel difficulty should go. Normal mode is Savage 1-2 difficulty, Savage is Savage Coil difficulty, and Ultimate is well, Ultimate. Not sure where to place extreme primals in though...

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I feel like they need to up the difficulty and if the vocal casual players start complaining, just have Yoshi P reply to them saying "git gud, it ain't changing". Heck, I've even said in another thread how I feel difficulty should go. Normal mode is Savage 1-2 difficulty, Savage is Savage Coil difficulty, and Ultimate is well, Ultimate. Not sure where to place extreme primals in though...

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I think they're trying to do a mix with extreme primals. Susano was much more of a heals/dps check than Lakshmi. Shinryu was a mechanics check. Byakko is pants on head easy. Tsukuyomi is somewhere inbetween Susano and Shinryu.

I don't mind this way of doing things. A mix is nice.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I feel like they need to up the difficulty and if the vocal casual players start complaining, just have Yoshi P reply to them saying "git gud, it ain't changing"

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do you do trial roulette frequently? Have you spent a lot of time doing castrim flummins? I've had runs time out because of that last phase. People will leave trials if there is one wipe. And you want to make casual content harder? No one would do it.

I do wish they would actually make "Hard" dungeons somewhat difficult, and not just 3x as faceroll easy as their normal counterparts due to either a total lack of ilvl sync, or a level set so high that you can ignore most mechanics and still not wipe.

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Originally Posted by Driskus

I do wish they would actually make "Hard" dungeons somewhat difficult, and not just 3x as faceroll easy as their normal counterparts due to either a total lack of ilvl sync, or a level set so high that you can ignore most mechanics and still not wipe.

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Hard modes aren't supposed to be harder. They're supposed to be revamped versions of those dungeons for a higher iLevel sync.

I want some kind of meaning full, engaging dungeon. Where the focus of what you do as your group is the level itself, not so much the boss. Multiple, changing pathways, large, sprawling map, hidden areas, rewards for going out of the way, sense of real danger. That sort of thing. I hope i'm making sense... Like,the old Black Shroud was huge and maze-like in its C&P and dual layers. Take that base C&P from the old map and Procedurally generate a dungeon with a boss hidden somewhere inside. Random boss and random reward and random location. Some kind of mashup of Deep Dungeon systems and Eureka. If they could do that and constantly update the rewards and bosses, that would be amazing! THAT is content I would really enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I feel like they need to up the difficulty and if the vocal casual players start complaining, just have Yoshi P reply to them saying "git gud, it ain't changing". Heck, I've even said in another thread how I feel difficulty should go. Normal mode is Savage 1-2 difficulty, Savage is Savage Coil difficulty, and Ultimate is well, Ultimate. Not sure where to place extreme primals in though...

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I think Yoshi P is tired of hearing one side constantly saying things are too easy and the other side constantly saying things are too hard. That's why we have Ultimates now, so that savage doesn't have to be that hard but there is still hard content for those that want it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I've had runs time out because of that last phase. People will leave trials if there is one wipe. And you want to make casual content harder? No one would do it.

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Here's the thing, the normal raids wouldn't be in a roulette with my difficulty selection. It'd be stuff you specifically queue for only. And people do Savage already, and they're the target audience. Casual content such as story mode primals, dungeons, 24-man raids, etc, can stay as is. This is JUST affecting normal 8-man raids (which wouldn't go into a roulette), Savage raids, and Extreme primals. To add a greater degree of content. Casual players already get the lion's share of content, and with this, they still would have the lion's share of content. But it means some more content for those wanting harder content, dependent on their level of difficulty. Since it's the only way SE would do it as we know they won't add a 3rd raid difficulty.

So, your Castrum Fluminis example you gave in trial roulette... that wouldn't be affected. So don't worry.

I wish we had more midcore content that could be done solo or in really small groups. I know this is a MMO but I just dislike having to find a bigger group to do something and I do like a challenge for myself. I loved the concept of the 101 PotD floors..sadly thanks to the horrible rule that DC counts as death I have no chance in there.. I could have no DC the whole day outside of the PotD and as soon as I step into it I can already wait on one..

So maybe more challenges without it being so strict with DCs.

We're all just out of luck. The dev team has been pumping out the exact same type of content since release. Nothing has changed and nothing will because their for formula has been exactly the same. Also, only being able to create boss fights and not fully fleshed out content is just bad. I would die for something like Salvage but no fleshed out content allowed!

OP I can relate to an extent - it's been a journey for me to find some friends that are either at my specific level of play or genuinely don't mind going along with the things I'm comfortable doing and the fact that my boyfriend doesn't want to do anything harder than an expert roulette doesn't help. He's grown towards crafting and gathering (and taking breaks from the game) so now the joke is that I've become his personal Kurenai - he supplies me with nice things to dress up in xD

All I can say is there is a reasonable amount of content out there for those who look for it. While most of what you've said is true there are a lot of spins to be put on things like the EXs/24mans/early Savage tiers. Personally when I expanded from just healing to playing RDM as well things became more interesting for me - it breathed new life into things that otherwise felt stale. Tanking things is even more of shock to my system - I haven't tanked anything really difficult but I am working my way up to it slowly. Point is expanding your horizons in terms of playing other classes and learning fights on them can be a cool, refreshing experience.

Also, frankly, a lot of my friends parse. Trying to beat previous dps numbers/each other on a given fight gives it a bit more longevity. Each time we do Ridorana one friend and I go in with him on SAM and me on RDM. I'm more geared than he is so it's essentially a fair fight, we scramble first off to see if either of us can be first in dps for any of the bosses and also to see if we can beat each other. I know competition isn't for everyone but it works for us and makes something kind of repetative into a new, fun thing. Plus talking crap to each other in Discord is fun.

Overall I feel your pain. Were you on Aether I would offer to have you come with us for weekly o5s/o6s runs.

As an aside - to me personally I find it really amusing how many people like to claim that everything shy of X is easy. Difficulty is entirely subjective. I did Trial Roulette on WHM yesterday and got Tsuku normal and by the end the only people who hadn't died to (in my opinion very easy) mechanics were myself and the PLD MT. No bonus message.

For those people Tsuku normal is challenging. Just because I don't find it so doesn't mean it isn't hard for a large group of people and dismissing someone's request for more content in their comfort zone is no different than a casual player laughing at hardcore raiders complaining the recent Ultimate changes - that content isn't there just for your amusent. Some people really like it and find it entertaining. I'm sorry that isn't you but popping into a thread to say "its all midcore :p" just says to me you don't care about anyone else's experience with this game. Your sub won't keep it running alone, remember that.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Osnip.

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Oh well I do that a lot, I tried tsuku as heal(main), tank, SMN BLM RDM, I even once brought my trash 338 DRG (i can't believe they took me in)

This does bring life I 100% agree, but ultimately I always do that on pf with random people. I just can't seem to find 7 people that I actually know who wants to do harder stuff.

I can't find a static because I just can't have a proper regular schedule. I'm often on but I also have plenty of things to do so I'm more often than not alt tabing.

I realise this is "my" problem.
But I'm sure this is also many people problem (trouble finding a big group)

I just wish there were more stuff in between 8man savage and trollololol 4man.
4man savage dungeon ^^ basically

Oh well you would gladly come :p

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

do you do trial roulette frequently? Have you spent a lot of time doing castrim flummins? I've had runs time out because of that last phase. People will leave trials if there is one wipe. And you want to make casual content harder? No one would do it.

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Has it ever occurred to you people struggle because the content is so laughably easy, when they actually release something requires more than a pulse, people panic? Shinryu and Tsukiyomi are not remotely difficult encounters. They just punish you for mistakes. Meanwhile, you can have twenty deaths in Phantom Train and still beat the enrage. And Swallow's Compass is so absurdly easy, I did a full run with a DF tank and cast nothing but Regen and the rare Tetra/Beni. That's how little damage he took. I'd say 90% of my time was casting Holy or Aero III save for the last boss where I actually did heal a little. With content tuned to such a low level, many players have little to no preparation for a sudden spike.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Has it ever occurred to you people struggle because the content is so laughably easy, when they actually release something requires more than a pulse, people panic?

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This happened a lot at the start of Heavensward. New players coasted through old ARR content, over geared and over levelled. Hit Bismark EX at level 60 and whoa, I need to know my dps rotation to clear this?? What is provoke?

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I just wish there were more stuff in between 8man savage and trollololol 4man.
4man savage dungeon ^^ basically

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First sorry for my english

This game really REALLY need 4 players hard/savage/challenging/ new/ replayable content ( and than take a lot of time to complete, not with a system of weeklies that we already have) i agree at 100 %. The hard dungeons already exist a little with the ilevel minimum ( mostly ARR dungeons like Haukke hard) it s a good beginning but it s not enough

It’s more easier to find 3 others players than seven ( and because in this game we often play with the two or three same players)

I would personally love to see savage type dungeons that reward better and actually take a brain and cooperation to finish. There are so many things that could be done and have not because they cannot break away from the formula they have always used...there is no risk taking and this needs to change for this game to stay playable for years to come.