Battle System Rant

Basically what Stormblood got right and what it botched up... but the 50/50 ones are going to be first on chopping block...

• Role Actions: Basically a better version of cross class with mixed results...
  
  
  More specifically the actions that look like they should be doing damage don't do damage, which is bad design overall as well having some role actions not making sense on some roles like tank (i.e. Shirk) when it could have been better on roles that better fit using it like DPS (again Shirk) and role actions that benefit from be used by similar roles(i.e. Bloodbath on tanks) and putting Esuna on Role Action was dumb...
  
  
  
  All healers should have their own Esuna(everyone misses Stoneskin)...
  
  
  
  Other than that Role Action did a pretty good job. 7/10
  
  
• Traits: Streamlining traits into abilities that effected by said trait was a good idea but was poorly implemented for unknown reasons, and Traits can still be salvaged by using it to buff Role Actions when certain jobs use said abilities so that way each job feels more unique when using those role actions that everyone else in that same role has... 4/10
  
  
  Overall job balance: I look at the tooltips of all of the abilities/weaponskills/spells and see that most things works and look at the things that don't work in an MMORPG environment...
  
  
  MNKs Tackle Master is pretty dumb and their "Riddles" sound like they should be group support rather than making them more selfish and have no synergy with the rest of the group...
  
  
  MCH is still RNG dependent and has too many things to make it work right...
  
  
  WAR doesn't feel "ungha" enough(right idea with Inner Release bad execution)...
  
  
  DRGs Dragon Gauge when Blood of the Dragon is active could have easily been fixed by having Dragonfire Dive be affected by Blood of the Dragon and have trigger Dive Ready status making it faster to get Life of the Dragon...
  
  
  Unnecessary nerfs to SMN and SCH at launch(SCH is getting better albeit slowly)...
  
  
  DRK complaint threads like the end times were upon us(is guilty of posting some of said complaint threads)
  
  
  ASTs Drawing cards every 30 seconds is a bit too long for its intended use (every 10 seconds would be a lot better and would probably increase usability of certain card effects with the exception of maybe The Spire)...
  
  
  SAM has slashing debuff while jobs that do piercing damage still need DRG...
  
  
  TP is not an issue for tanks outside of AoE situations(unless you are caster in which case give some to your melee DPS)...
  
  
  And not all melee oriented jobs have the luxury of spending MP(PLD and DRK have spend MP to have better DPS in a fight)...
  
  
  And tank stance is still terrible since the current role system doesn't really call for something unnecessary like penalizing tanks for using said tank stance(damage dealt penalty is more hurtful than helpful)... Overall 5/10
  
  
  
• Role Stats: pretty pointless balancing in the long run especially for Tanks that now have a better Determination stat on top of Determination but no Direct Hit Rate... also Direct Hit Rate was probably the biggest design choice the actually divided the player base even more and could have just have Critical Hit stat tooltip say that also affects Direct Hit Rate...
  
  
  And Party Bonus function is pretty pointless now... overall 3/10
  
  
  
• Dungeons: Aside from the occasional WTF moment in certain instances like Bardam's Mettle, the dungeons are by far the best part of this expansion(Shisui of the Violet Tides BIKINI ARMOR) as well some good references to other titles that Square-Enix has such as glamour sets from the Ogre Battle games, and are pretty balanced. 9/10
  
  
  
• Raids: 24 player raids weren't really affected too much so far in terms of how long they are, but as for the 8 player raids they have been downgraded to glorified Trials... Good nostalgia though... Overall 7/10 (would have been 9 or 10/10 if 8 player raids didn't get reduced to glorified trials)
  
  
  
• Trials: The fights actually make good use of the co-tank mechanics in the Extreme version(Shinryu Normal Mode also does the same thing and is pretty tough for first time players) and the fights are challenging... the first 2 trials for story progression are a bit of underwhelming but still somewhat fun... 8/10

I still do not understand why people hate shirk.

Unless DPS get access to provoke, they can't use it to the full potential Tanks can. Giving a tool that's best used for tankswapping to classes that already have their own equivalent (IE Diversion/Refresh&Tactician) seems wasteful to me.

Also, the reason something so critical for healing (Esuna) became a role skill is because there's absolutely no reason for there to be unique skill for each class in a role, when all the skills will just do the exact same thing. Just like Provoke and Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I still do not understand why people hate shirk.

Unless DPS get access to provoke, they can't use it to the full potential Tanks can. Giving a tool that's best used for tankswapping to classes that already have their own equivalent (IE Diversion/Refresh&Tactician) seems wasteful to me.

Also, the reason something so critical for healing (Esuna) became a role skill is because there's absolutely no reason for there to be unique skill for each class in a role, when all the skills will just do the exact same thing. Just like Provoke and Rampart.

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I don't hate Shirk, in fact more often than not I even forget that it's there in Role Action most of the time because most of the situations don't really call for tanks needing it which especially when you read what it does and and feels more like a DPS Role Action. And given that Provoke now has an AoE variant, which kinda feels pointless to have unless some DPS decided to go Leeroy Jenkins with their AoEs but that's more of a tank complaint really, and Provoke + Aggro combo was already a good way to tank swap so it was really unnecessary to give tanks Shirk and Ultimatum(Ultimatum is better than Shirk on tanks because it's an AoE Provoke)

And to fix the Esuna problem just by having heal HP on top of negative status effect removal on top of gimmick related to the job that can use Esuna.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Also, the reason something so critical for healing (Esuna) became a role skill is because there's absolutely no reason for there to be unique skill for each class in a role, when all the skills will just do the exact same thing. Just like Provoke and Rampart.

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By that logic, why aren't Cure and Raise role actions?

The real issue here is the concept of role actions themselves. Not a bad idea in theory, but just like cross-class before it the abilities tend to fall into the categories of "absolute must have" (Provoke, Swiftcast) or "who would ever use this" (Break, Feint.) There's very little actual choice, in which case why not just give everyone the basics by default and get rid of role actions entirely?

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

... and Provoke + Aggro combo was already a good way to tank swap so it was really unnecessary to give tanks Shirk and Ultimatum(Ultimatum is better than Shirk on tanks because it's an AoE Provoke)

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You underestimate how useful Shirk is to the raider scene. For people who want to spend as little time in tank stance or aggro combo'ing as possible, a 25% boost to current threat is a big help. Considering how quickly I can catch up to a main tank after a round of Inner Release, being able to cut my own threat is pretty important. Ultimatum is actually what I see as pointless: it's just an aoe provoke with a longer cooldown. Large groups of mobs don't last long enough to need anything beyond Overpower/Flash/Abyssal Drain.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

By that logic, why aren't Cure and Raise role actions?

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Funnily enough, both WERE available for cross-class before the revamp. Cure has a higher potency than Physick to make up for the latter having a fairy helping them.

When skills have differences in order to balance them (such as proc'ing something, a different cost or a different potency) they aren't good for role skills. I'm assuming that's why Anticipation doesn't get stronger on DRK to make up for taking away Dark Dance. I can only assume Raise stopped being cross class because of Resurrection, since they didn't want to take that away from Summoner.

The only case I know of where a role skill interacts with an actual job's toolset is how Paladin gets a boost to intervention if Rampart is up, but the thing is, it's not the job changing the role skill, it's the role skill changing the job, which I believe is easier to program.

You are correct about how little choice there is. They might as well let us equip all ten at once.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I don't hate Shirk, in fact more often than not I even forget that it's there in Role Action most of the time because most of the situations don't really call for tanks needing it which especially when you read what it does and and feels more like a DPS Role Action. And given that Provoke now has an AoE variant, which kinda feels pointless to have unless some DPS decided to go Leeroy Jenkins with their AoEs but that's more of a tank complaint really, and Provoke + Aggro combo was already a good way to tank swap so it was really unnecessary to give tanks Shirk and Ultimatum(Ultimatum is better than Shirk on tanks because it's an AoE Provoke)

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Ultimatium isn't ranged and for bosses that you want to swap on it's usually only one target, not multiple.
I mean you're usually not going to be ranged either way, but if something goes away from you, you'll want it to hit the target and not just scream around you.

Shirk is fantastic for helping enmity. Even without tank swaps, an off tank can provoke and immediately shirk it off onto the main tank. Meaning less time in tank stance, less worry about an overzealous black mage or something.
For tank swaps it ensures you don't need to stop attacking when swapping off. It means you don't need to use an enmity combo when swapping in. It's all about the damage output.

Someone once said that Provoke is the off tank throwing up their hand for a high five. Shirk is you returning it. Don't leave your tank buddy hanging.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Someone once said that Provoke is the off tank throwing up their hand for a high five. Shirk is you returning it. Don't leave your tank buddy hanging.

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I remember that. I've yet to see the legendary Circle Shirk, where someone provokes, I shirk, then provoke, then they shirk (or vice versa).

I just wish I didn't have to keep swapping it off for dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I remember that. I've yet to see the legendary Circle Shirk, where someone provokes, I shirk, then provoke, then they shirk (or vice versa).

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That's the tank dream.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Someone once said that Provoke is the off tank throwing up their hand for a high five. Shirk is you returning it. Don't leave your tank buddy hanging.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I remember that. I've yet to see the legendary Circle Shirk, where someone provokes, I shirk, then provoke, then they shirk (or vice versa).

I just wish I didn't have to keep swapping it off for dungeons.

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At that point you might as well have 5 DPS in your party because that is not tank swapping and is actually detrimental to learning AND clearing a fight with tank swaps with other mechanics that interfere with that strategy and doesn't really make use of BOTH tanks CDs.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

At that point you might as well have 5 DPS in your party because that is not tank swapping and is actually detrimental to learning AND clearing a fight with tank swaps with other mechanics that interfere with that strategy and doesn't really make use of BOTH tanks CDs.

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I don't even. Shirking does not eliminate the need for tank swapping in fights that actually require you to do so, it just makes the process smoother. I have no idea what you're trying to complain about.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

I don't even. Shirking does not eliminate the need for tank swapping in fights that actually require you to do so, it just makes the process smoother. I have no idea what you're trying to complain about.

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Shirk gives 25% of the user's enmity to someone(Mostly the person who is main tanking) sounds like it needs to be on Healer AND DPS role action list instead of tanks, and you certainly don't need 2 role actions dedicated to tank swapping since most fights don't even call for it especially before Stormblood where Shirk wasn't even conceived at that point. Then again I am a DRK main who is still salty about unnecessary nerfs the job shit when Stormblood launched and most role actions felt like a slap to the face if you noticed some of the animations from tank role action or recycled from DRK only actions with different looks.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Shirk gives 25% of the user's enmity to someone(Mostly the person who is main tanking) sounds like it needs to be on Healer AND DPS role action list instead of tanks

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Let's say this happened, what would you purpose to replace the two actions for NIN that deal with emnity (Shadewalker and Smokescreen)? I mean no one picks NIN just for those actions but it does give it some unique standing amongst the other jobs, having Shirk as cross role for DPS kinda removes that niche for them.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Let's say this happened, what would you purpose to replace the two actions for NIN that deal with emnity (Shadewalker and Smokescreen)? I mean no one picks NIN just for those actions but it does give it some unique standing amongst the other jobs, having Shirk as cross role for DPS kinda removes that niche for them.

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Leave those abilities alone and give Shirk to SAM? The recent "buff" to Merciful Eyes isn't going to be noticeable due to it be gated by an Third Eye proc. Alternatively; Give Shirk to NIN so that NIN has Shadewalker, Smokescreen, and Shirk.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Leave those abilities alone and give Shirk to SAM? The recent "buff" to Merciful Eyes isn't going to be noticeable due to it be gated by an Third Eye proc. Alternatively; Give Shirk to NIN so that NIN has Shadewalker, Smokescreen, and Shirk.

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It's literally free threat reduction, and every savage fight we've had is plentiful on raid wide damage.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's literally free threat reduction, and every savage fight we've had is plentiful on raid wide damage.

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Latency is a big factor and you also have to perfectly time it in which every other time you can't even get it because of the 3 second window to get the proc for the that reduction which the game asks you to be perfect when other jobs can do that without the need for a proc. Making things needlessly complicated is not fun.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Latency is a big factor and you also have to perfectly time it in which every other time you can't even get it because of the 3 second window to get the proc for the that reduction which the game asks you to be perfect when other jobs can do that without the need for a proc. Making things needlessly complicated is not fun.

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If by 'time it perfectly' you mean 'hit it about 50% cast bar'

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If by 'time it perfectly' you mean 'hit it about 50% cast bar'

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This. It's been a long time since I've missed a Third Eye. And without a NIN, a Merciful Eyes can mean more for rDPS (via tank dps) than Seigan. I'll Merciful whenever I'm nearing taking MT enmity if it won't lose me a Kaiten, Shinten, or Seigan over TA, or whenever to near to wait. Honestly, without a Monk present, I usually see Shirk again relegated to the tank swaps themselves these days, rather than CircleShirking.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Funnily enough, both WERE available for cross-class before the revamp. Cure has a higher potency than Physick to make up for the latter having a fairy helping them.

When skills have differences in order to balance them (such as proc'ing something, a different cost or a different potency) they aren't good for role skills. I'm assuming that's why Anticipation doesn't get stronger on DRK to make up for taking away Dark Dance. I can only assume Raise stopped being cross class because of Resurrection, since they didn't want to take that away from Summoner.

The only case I know of where a role skill interacts with an actual job's toolset is how Paladin gets a boost to intervention if Rampart is up, but the thing is, it's not the job changing the role skill, it's the role skill changing the job, which I believe is easier to program.

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Actually Cure, Physick, and Benefic are all the same potency. The only differences are the traits that whm and ast get with them (sch has no traits on physick). Cure has a chance to proc a free Cure 2 and Benefic has a chance to make the next Benefic 2 crit heal.

Eye for an Eye used to be an arcanist (sch/smn) defensive buff, but now as a role action it's longer cool down and rng nature doesn't make it useful enough anymore. Oddly it still interacts with deployment tactics on sch, but even that is kinda meh.

I'm on the side that Esuna should be removed from role actions...tired of one hit status things that you have have to bring it for like Ex-Death doom. They could have added a trait to them to make them more interesting or powerful. Maybe whm gets a small aoe cleanse (pancea?). Give sch a warden's paean type shield.

Protect should be pulled out of role actions and then rename divine benison protect...make it physical damage and then give whm shell version for magic since they lost so many skills in 4.0.

Break should have been a spammable aoe like ice 2 was (not necessarily the same range) for low level aoe.

Largesse should boost healing overall...not just magic since that cuts off half of sch's toolkit.

Something I want to see is a version of shirk for healers...why can't we pass off our healing aggro to tanks?

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Originally Posted by Kalinas

Actually Cure, Physick, and Benefic are all the same potency. The only differences are the traits that whm and ast get with them (sch has no traits on physick).

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Cure is 450 potency while the other two are only 400.

Largesse + abilities is a problem that has to be adresses that's for sure.

Dissipation suffer from the same issue

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Largesse + abilities is a problem that has to be adresses that's for sure.

Dissipation suffer from the same issue

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Umm, what exactly is the problem? The meaning of "healing magic" vs. "healing done" or "healing done by your spells", etc., has been consistent since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Cure is 450 potency while the other two are only 400.

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Also to add to this SCH does have traits in the form of Maim & Mend I and II, and AST gets a pot boost from whichever sect is active. I know the base potency of the heals is still like you said though, but they do get something.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Umm, what exactly is the problem? The meaning of "healing magic" vs. "healing done" or "healing done by your spells", etc., has been consistent since 2.0.

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I think the concern is that with each expac, healers are only going to get even more abilities that are not effected by the likes of Largesse. Of course abilities generally have higher potency to make up for the fact they are not effected by these pot boosts, but perhaps it could be nice to have a skill that effects abilities more in the future (not necessarily a pot boost, maybe like the ASTs old Spear effect that reduced ability recast times temporarily).

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Originally Posted by Kurando

I think the concern is that with each expac, healers are only going to get even more abilities that are not effected by the likes of Largesse. Of course abilities generally have higher potency to make up for the fact they are not effected by these pot boosts, but perhaps it could be nice to have a skill that effects abilities more in the future (not necessarily a pot boost, maybe like the ASTs old Spear effect that reduced ability recast times temporarily).

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I'd prefer it that way, personally. Otherwise Largesse ends up just feeling like Power Surge did -- button bloat that acts only to make your abilities deal their "normal" effect, such that you're badly penalized if it falls out of sync. I have no interest in seeing that in what's supposed to be a precisely timeable and responsive toolkit.

What I'm not okay with is Defiance not affected ability-based healing. That's just a massive, blaring imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What I'm not okay with is Defiance not affected ability-based healing. That's just a massive, blaring imbalance.

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Considering this, do you think other buffs should be effected by ability-based healing as well, so things such as Convalescence, Fey Illum and Nature's Minne etc? At least so it's consistent across the board and not just WAR.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Considering this, do you think other buffs should be effected by ability-based healing as well, so things such as Convalescence, Fey Illum and Nature's Minne etc? At least so it's consistent across the board and not just WAR.

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Honestly, no. Let's put it this way: in the dominant spread of pre-Savage of content, buffing anything outside of abilities is largely situational, or at least not "rotational" in the same way healer oGCDs are. And, honestly, that's how I'd prefer to see Mantra, Fey Illumination, and Nature's Minne used. If anything, I want them to be timed to a buffed shield or HoT, never to the alignment of healer oGCDs. As such, they work fine, imo. The only imbalance is that Shield Oath and Grit both affect eHP as restorable by either Abilities or Spells, while Defiance only affects Spells. As content is further and further outgeared, and more abilities added, it falls further behind the other stances.