All dungeons should have minimum ilevel requirements?

See title. I have been encountering a lot of people in dungeons whose gear is just not up to the task. Opinions?

Caught me red handed. I"ll come back after i get poetic gear.

I was recently in Sohm Al with a tank wearing a level 49 piece of gear. The rest of his stuff didn't measure up either. He'd die in two to three hits, and while I may not have been the best healer in the world there was no way I could have brought him through that dungeon.
I was going to mention something about it, but he went on to make some other questionable decisions so I simply left, after the three wipes from the first pull of course. I simply don't think he was prepared properly as a tank.

I don't think dungeons need a minimum ilvl per se. I think people need to be better indoctrinated into their roles.

Just get rid of gear. POTD and Eureka it doesn't even matter to have it because the ilvl cap is so low on the latter. POTD even reduced all the stuff to essentially two stats, attack and defense.

There's no real choice aspect in gear, you either have it or you don't. You can minmax stats, but thats only particularly valuable for one kind of content in the game, savage. You can actually do most content at the min ilvl, and that's generally when it's the funnest.

they could just give us materia for boosting stats or what have you, and all gear be glamour. We literally just had an expansion for where half of the levels you could use one set of shire armor. For alts you could use it all the way to 70, if you skipped the dungeons over doing level capped roulettes and other ways of exping.

They should, yes, even the story dungeons, if only to prevent situations where players go into content undergeared, forcing other players to adjust more so than necessary. Story dungeons have a bad habit of this where a severely undergeared healer/tank could potentially make a run impossible.

They should do both, set minimum ilevel AND level sync to whatever content comes after it. (eg The minimum ilevel of HW should be the ilevel 120 Poetics gear, the minimum ilevel of the SB dungeons should be the poetics ilevel 260 HW gear)

To do otherwise makes the leveling content absurdly easy when overgeared, it seems ridiculous that all 50/60 dungeons weren't ilevel synced when SB came out.

EG:
Sastasha to The Aurum Vale should have ilevel sync at 55, and minimum ilevel set the same as the dungeon level - 10.
The Dusk Vigil to the Great Gubal Library should ilevel sync 130-150, with a minimum ilevel at 120 (same as ARR Poetics gear/World of Darkness gear)
The Sirensong Sea to Castrum Abania should ilevel sync to 270-290, with a minimum ilevel at 260 (Same as HW Poetics gear/Dun Scaith)


But this doesn't solve the actual problem of requiring capable gear in all left-hand slots, or relevant materia melded to that gear. It needs to be said again, if you can enter the dungeon, you can do the dungeon, you are not promised a faceroll every time, and if minimum ilevel is enforced, so should level sync.

In my experience, more than often it's experienced players who are (heavily) undergeared for an instance rather than newer players. When leveling an alt job, minimum ilevel requirements could also help prevent people getting higher level dungeons when queueing for roulettes when they don't have the right gear for it.

Agreed. It's maddening to see players from Toto-Rak to THE AERY wearing only the weathered accessories on their right side slots. Whatever happened to that one story quest really early on where we had to equip level-appropriate gear to proceed? If this nonsense keeps up I'd recommend bringing it back. >:U

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Originally Posted by Rahela

Agreed. It's maddening to see players from Toto-Rak to THE AERY wearing only the weathered accessories on their right side slots. Whatever happened to that one story quest really early on where we had to equip level-appropriate gear to proceed? If this nonsense keeps up I'd recommend bringing it back. >:U

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Only one I recalled was you being item level 5, that it.

Anyways, fun mention here, had a Sirensong sea with a SAM so low in item level, that they couldn't actually fight. Like how the first boss has a stack mechanic? They'd die even with everyone in. How the second and third boss has an aoe explosion you can't avoid? 1 shotted every time.

I had to take that through when I was leveling ninja. The item level was so low that the LB2 did 4% of the bosses health. LB2, not LB1...

Oh man, levelling roullete trying to level Astrologian, get put into Sirensong Sea...and end up with a Tank in all IL 148 gear...:mad:
Boy that did not end well.

Then i got yelled at for being a "Bad Healer" when i failed to keep him alive.

How exactly was that my fault again? :confused:

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Just get rid of gear. POTD and Eureka it doesn't even matter to have it because the ilvl cap is so low on the latter. POTD even reduced all the stuff to essentially two stats, attack and defense.

There's no real choice aspect in gear, you either have it or you don't. You can minmax stats, but thats only particularly valuable for one kind of content in the game, savage. You can actually do most content at the min ilvl, and that's generally when it's the funnest.

they could just give us materia for boosting stats or what have you, and all gear be glamour. We literally just had an expansion for where half of the levels you could use one set of shire armor. For alts you could use it all the way to 70, if you skipped the dungeons over doing level capped roulettes and other ways of exping.

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Pretty much this. I've been saying it for a long time now: stats are so meaningless that you could remove them completely from gear and it wouldn't change much of anything. It would bring positives to the game, actually. The only real negative would be that plenty of people play only for gear despite now meaningless it is.

I would just use command missions for leveling an alt in place of leveling roulettes at this point

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Pretty much this. I've been saying it for a long time now: stats are so meaningless that you could remove them completely from gear and it wouldn't change much of anything. It would bring positives to the game, actually. The only real negative would be that plenty of people play only for gear despite now meaningless it is.

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Should they remove durability too? Causes issues with clearing when people don't repair. Gil isn't worth anything anyways.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Should they remove durability too? Causes issues with clearing when people don't repair. Gil isn't worth anything anyways.

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Durability is a check against botting unfortunately. SE probably should remove all the nameless repair NPC's, and make people repair their own gear. Problem solved. Can't find someone to repair it? buy new. New Gil sink found. s/

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Should they remove durability too? Causes issues with clearing when people don't repair. Gil isn't worth anything anyways.

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Well if gear had no stats, durability wouldn't have a use anymore!

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Durability is a check against botting unfortunately./

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Which doesn't actually work because bots can easily be scripted to repair their gear the moment they get a "low durability" warning.

You can level really quick if you keep up with side quests, so I can see the annoyance of people not having the right gear for lower level dungeons. But is it really that bad higher up?

I only ran into such a thing once, where the tank in DD had level 20 gear for some dang reason. I ended up leaving the group, since I was the healer and the 2 DPS were friends of the tank who could apparently do no wrong in their bad gear.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

You can level really quick if you keep up with side quests, so I can see the annoyance of people not having the right gear for lower level dungeons. But is it really that bad higher up?

I only ran into such a thing once, where the tank in DD had level 20 gear for some dang reason. I ended up leaving the group, since I was the healer and the 2 DPS were friends of the tank who could apparently do no wrong in their bad gear.

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it's not that bad but when it happens it's pretty painful to deal with. ilvl requirements don't even need to be very strict you know, just something to strain out the blatantly unready

The first few dungeons it isn't a problem. But getting a tank in a level 50 dungeon with less health than the healer is a problem. Even if that healer is synced from 70 that makes it way harder then it should be.
I'd say anything above 30 should have a ilvl for dungeons or such. So people can use the items that give exp bonuses below level 30 still.
Even still it should near the level required to enter the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Which doesn't actually work because bots can easily be scripted to repair their gear the moment they get a "low durability" warning.

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Not if they haven't leveled crafters. Like with THIS game, that is easily the way to neuter the bots efficiency.

This is not a serious suggestion because of how it would screw over legitimate players, but just think about it...

Remove all the repair NPC's, A L L of them. In other games, bots tend to just run endlessly even when their gear breaks because the bare-hand damage of whatever level they are at is more than enough to keep beating on monsters, and doesn't actually prevent the player from attacking with broken gear. If there were no repair NPC's, then the bots would be forced to keep buying gear, and that's where you stick them a second time by removing all NQ gear from the merchants, remove all NQ gear and Allagan metals from quests.

Then to bring it back a bit from horribly annoying, allow the retainers to repair certain gear for free if they are assigned a DoH job at the right level, all other gear gil costs for them to "go and find someone to repair it for you". Bots will not have the time to level DoH retainers by the time they are hopefully booted.

Like for all intents, the reason durability even exists, in any CRPG, is that it's something that originated in Ultima Underworld. It's existed in some shape before then, but UW actually had items like weapons, food, and doors degrade over time (you could attack wooden doors instead of finding keys.) That was by design because UW had fixed resources. Monsters once killed, didn't respawn, and neither did anything you threw away. MMORPG's have infinite resources, so durability has been just a way to get players to return to the city or hub instead of constantly trying to beat down a door for 24 hours straight. In freemium games they tend to be a way to soak the players for more money by adding item destruction as a risk if you don't pay (let me count the number of items Ferghus from Mabinogi destroyed something.) Gear durability wasn't even in Pen-and-paper RPG's until the 2000's.

Every MMORPG has it. But maybe we should consider why we still have it. Like all Ultima's had "food" as a resource, in a CRPG, but in Ultima 1-8 it was simply a check against the player, again mindlessly hammering on something for hours without returning to town. Food in Ultima 7, I believe actually gave buffs, and that found it's way into UO, and most games subsequently removed the need to eat, but kept the buffs from it. (Mabinogi, if you don't eat, your maximum stamina is lowered.)

Perhaps gear durability needs to evolve as well. You can repair it to 199% if you repair it yourself, but it doesn't really add anything. In fact on ARR's release, repair costs were more than double, and players were speed running dungeons to try and save costs.

I'd like this, mostly because it would allow downgrading gear to avoid high level dungeons in leveling roulette. Maybe that's why it's not a thing, though.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

But is it really that bad higher up?

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Yes. I was doing Castrum Abania with a friend to get their alt through the story and I was tanking it on Paladin. We had a level 70 Scholar so I thought things would be ok. You get free level 70 gear at 70 from your job quest. Except this person showed up with a level 50 unfinished relic and level 40-50 gear. Their heals literally did nothing to my hp. I basically solo healed myself and eventually died when running out of MP to heal with because our dps was pretty low (level 69s with leveling gear or worse). I got Shisui in roulette with a Dragoon who still had level 50ish gear.

I totally agree that all dungeons, even story, should have a minimum item level requirement. There is NO excuse to be running around in item level 50 gear at 60-70. NONE. The story hands you free gear just for clicking a button. Vendors have level appropriate gear that is easily obtained and not expensive. I had like 2 million gil just level up from 1-50 the first time from msq and dungeons and did almost no side quests, so not having gil is a poor excuse for that as well. Problem is people are lazy, and don't care that they are a burden to others.

Being new is not an excuse. When I was new I still made sure I had appropriate level gear for the content I was running because I had a sense of personal responsibility to not be useless to the rest of my group. I wish others did the same.

In all honesty, I would prefer to see more of just a sync that just affects your stats, but doesn't restrict your skills to the dungeon's level. I don't really buy that it's 'too difficult' with the current system. Unless the engine is coded that bad to the point that it would require a huge investment to allow - maybe someone more versed in software could shed more light on that. But honestly, I think something like a sync that does not take away learned skills would be better. Maybe with a system like that, even doomed runs could be saved with those extra skills that you've used in later content. I say this with ARR/HW dungeons in mind...SB dungeons...eh...starting with Bardam's, that's another story.

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Originally Posted by Levarius

I'd like this, mostly because it would allow downgrading gear to avoid high level dungeons in leveling roulette. Maybe that's why it's not a thing, though.

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And if the former happens, I'd be running Tam Tara, Toto Rak, and Aurum Vale too much more than usual.

They should either reformat the roulette of leveling dungeons (people have been using hunts for Clusters lately), and/or set reasonable item level requirements for dungeons from Heavensward and on.

I made a similar thread last year, though it only applied to Heavensward dungeons at the time:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l-requirements

Seems some concepts from that thread apply even today.

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Originally Posted by Levarius

I'd like this, mostly because it would allow downgrading gear to avoid high level dungeons in leveling roulette. Maybe that's why it's not a thing, though.

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They'd have to change the roulette but they can get around it. Check your level. See what's the highest duty you have unlocked in the roulette you can run at that level. Can't queue if you don't have at least that high an ilvl. They're doing it for Mentor roulette currently but it's a static check that gets manually raised every time the roulette gets new content, this would have to be dynamic. I really think they should invest in this mechanism, it's a one time investment and they can use it for all roulettes. People go in naked to get out of Shinryu in Trials? Too damn bad. They won't run the roulette with this in place? They weren't helping the right queues along anyway.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

They'd have to change the roulette but they can get around it. Check your level. See what's the highest duty you have unlocked in the roulette you can run at that level. Can't queue if you don't have at least that high an ilvl. They're doing it for Mentor roulette currently but it's a static check that gets manually raised every time the roulette gets new content, this would have to be dynamic. I really think they should invest in this mechanism, it's a one time investment and they can use it for all roulettes. People go in naked to get out of Shinryu in Trials? Too damn bad. They won't run the roulette with this in place? They weren't helping the right queues along anyway.

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Indeed. If people try to lower their item level just to avoid Shinryu, I hope they get Ravana, Bismarck, Susano, or Lakshmi in Trials roulette with undergeared people because there is no item level requirement for them. I've seen a lot of bad runs with these four trials lately ever since Stormblood came out.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

They'd have to change the roulette but they can get around it. Check your level. See what's the highest duty you have unlocked in the roulette you can run at that level. Can't queue if you don't have at least that high an ilvl. They're doing it for Mentor roulette currently but it's a static check that gets manually raised every time the roulette gets new content, this would have to be dynamic. I really think they should invest in this mechanism, it's a one time investment and they can use it for all roulettes. People go in naked to get out of Shinryu in Trials? Too damn bad. They won't run the roulette with this in place? They weren't helping the right queues along anyway.

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If it means locking people out of roulettes until their gear catches up then I've changed my mind—it's a terrible idea.

To expand on this a bit more, I like the idea of minimum ilvls for dungeons. I'm not liking the idea of it locking out roulettes to prevent people from lowering their ilvl to avoid dungeons. That, to me, is the greater of two evils.

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Originally Posted by Levarius

If it means locking people out of roulettes until their gear catches up then I've changed my mind—it's a terrible idea.

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Something has to give. Either you lock people out of content (and therefore the roulettes in an ideal world) until their gear improve, or you let people with ilvl 1 into Aurum Vale.

I see tanks come into higher level dungeons even before 50 in a hodgepodge mix of starter accessories and NQ quest gear from... anywhere between 5 and 10 levels behind the dungeon. I'm a pretty good WHM, I'm easing back into it on my new main as if I never left the job in the first place - but no matter how good of a healer you are, you can't save a tank from dying in two hits when they have less HP than the NQ-wearing baby Summoner.

Minimum iLevel should most definitely be a thing. Considering how it can lock you out at endgame to not have a proper iLevel, it isn't unreasonable to have the game start teaching newblets about it very early on. >_>;

If any check was implemented it should be a main stat check, because it would put emphasis on keeping people's left side gear and weapon updated and would also prevent people from using the wrong type of accessories to enter dungeons. Item levels imply power but measuring power directly is more accurate.

These requirements probably shouldn't be too strict so that people can still enter leveling content with the jobs they intend to level without having to spend hundreds of thousands of gil on temporary leveling gear.

I'd say it needs to happen and if it locks people out of content until they can catch up too bad... For your main job it isn't an issue, get that to 70 first, then afterwards you can unsync one of the HW dungeons repeatedly to get the gear you need for alts (or maybe farm poetics), to get them enough gear to get into the dungeons, even easier if your level 70 shares gear with the alt you're trying to level, then it's 10 runs max. Then they can work their way up with alts. When you read stories of people going into Castrum Abania with say level 1 glam gear (maybe checking out their glam mid queue if it's a genuine accident)... something needs to give. I'd also make it so once your queue pops you must be on the class and right ilvl to accept duty. Then like how you can't change jobs during the "Waiting on others" section, you wouldn't be able to change gear either. If there's one thing I've learned from working retail and tech support...

I enjoy those situations, as it makes for fun gameplay in an otherwise face roll game.

leveling an alt through HW and noticing people really reeeaallly seem like to like to push their unaugmented ironworks gear all the way to 60. Trying to keep an i122 tank standing in the Vault is a doozy.

While it may be faceroll for more experienced players who know all the content, newer players who are still learning how to run certain things should not have to deal with i.e. a tank wearing i55 class gear in the vault.

Seriously, why is this not a thing yet?

had a tank in bardam's in some level 60 gear and it was an absolute nightmare keeping his squishy self up. (didn't help he didn't stay in tank stance at all either.) please save us from df nightmares like these.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

For your main job it isn't an issue, get that to 70 first, then afterwards you can unsync one of the HW dungeons repeatedly to get the gear you need for alts (or maybe farm poetics), to get them enough gear to get into the dungeons, even easier if your level 70 shares gear with the alt you're trying to level, then it's 10 runs max. Then they can work their way up with alts.

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This goes against the "run content with the job you want gear for" mentality that all the people in the alliance raid thread share. Even if we can unsync older dungeon, SB dungeons would still have the problem that you can't get gear for your alt when someone of that job is Need rolling it all whether they need it or not.

And like I said before, forcing every player in the game to buy vendor/crafted gear every couple of levels by having a very strict item level restriction is an unacceptable solution to me because this problem is not widespread or difficult to begin with. Just kick the people with too low gear, problem solved. Implementing a lenient main stat restriction would be fine and would block out the worst cases of being undergeared.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

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However, for HW and SB dungeons you already get gear for every odd-levelled dungeon you complete, so that's not an issue for the "run content with the job you want gear for" mentality. Only thing I would add to that is being able to get your weapon from the end of the dungeon clear (you don't get that currently). Then you can keep running it with the class you wanna level for the full gear. So yeah, I don't care if it's just 1 person doing it, it's something I feel should be tackled. Even if there were 0 people doing it I'd still advocate fixing it so that people can't decide to do it in the future. And only the ARR dungeons would have that issue (given how ARR gear works, not sure how to fix that one though). I would also mandate that 50/60/70 dungeons require all the relevant job quests complete too to queue for.

One would think the ilvl requirements for parts of the story would apply to the dungeons, but I suppose that’s too much to ask.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

This is a hard thing to fix since most players are not going to farm dungeons/buy gear, outside augmented Ironworks/Shire (and to be honest those are enough if everyone knows what they are doing), when the main source of XP are roulettes.

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It's not that hard. Don't let people do Castrum Abania in 260 Shire gear. Done.

There's a vendor that sells better whites at that point.