Holmgang is way too strong for how short the CD is and needs to be nerfed.

The skill has two downsides in that you need a target to use the move and you also can't move while it's active.

The first downside is moot since you're always going to have something to target when using this move.

The second downside is actually used as a positive in many cases since people will use it to prevent heavy hitting damage that would also knock back the user, like Head on.

What are your thoughts on Holmgang?

i think WAR entire defensive kit need to be revised and rebalance in terms of mitigation power and recast in general, with holmgang and vengeance on top of the list.
probably fix inner beast and make it part of they efective defensive kit but that a revamp i think it have to be save to the next expansion, WAR's get to much love already.

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

Holmgang....never really had a need for it unless it's in PvP or front line otherwise it's pretty much useless if you know how to tank with a WAR properly The whole binding is over rated and only real draw back is if your stuck in a mayor aoe or conal attack that can be avoided. .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

---

the root is not a downside when is not a problem to cheese so many mechanics in the game, sheltron and TBN are comparable to the huge amout of cds WAR have to pair with rampart and vengeance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

---

Paladin has a 7 minute cooldown and a 3 minute cooldown. Warrior has a 3 minute cooldown as its longest option, a minute and a half option if they happen to line up, and a 15 second option in the form of a gap closer. The root is not an issue and gives flexibility to a skill which you are trying to re-purpose as a downside. This flexibility will be even more valuable if we ever see a tank buster like a11s that pushed you off the edge unless you were rooted in place, or took no damage.

What is this, the "if they won't fix DRK then nerf WAR" bandwagon thread?

Its fine imo.
You have to time the skill correctly, or else you might die from an auto attack after the duration finishes. (Well... in savage fights... maybe even large trash pulls in dungeons too) Also the healers have to heal you back up + like you said, you can't even move. While the other tank invincibility skills like living dead and hallowed ground are much easier to time and use. I main pug savage, so I'm sure holmgang is godlike when you have a static.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What is this, the "if they won't fix DRK then nerf WAR" bandwagon thread?

---

Excuse me? Where was DRK mentioned? Holmgang is way too powerful on its own, it has nothing to do with the other tanks and everything to do with how stupidly strong strong move is. Holmgang could be swapped to any other tank and it would not make it any less broken. Yet despite how strong the move is, it is on the tank that has the most amount of cooldowns and the shortest recast CD's. Holmgang absolutely does not need to be on a 3 minute CD when that is the same CD as Sentinel and Shadow wall. it doesn't help that Vengeance blows Sentinel and Shadow wall out of the water already. And yes, that is taking into consideration Blackest night and Sheltron. Lets not ignore the fact that TBN and Intervention can be used on the WAR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubytoe

Its fine imo.
You have to time the skill correctly, or else you might die from an auto attack after the duration finishes. (Well... in savage fights... maybe even large trash pulls in dungeons too) Also the healers have to heal you back up + like you said, you can't even move. While the other tank invincibility skills like living dead and hallowed ground are much easier to time and use. I main pug savage, so I'm sure holmgang is godlike when you have a static.

---

In my 4 years of playing this game, I have never had an issue timing holmgang. The effect speed of Holmgang is much faster than Hallowed or Benediction, near instant if I could put it one way. You also don't need to be healed much at all with Holmgang. A simple oGCD heal will take care of the WAR once Holmgang nearly expires.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

---

You mention Sheltron and TBN, but you can use those skills on the WAR as well so I really don't see what you mean. Vengeance, Raw intution and Thrill also disagree with your statement of PLD and DRK having many short recast CDs, because in fact WAR is the definition of "tank with many strong, low recast CDs".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

---

Except Inner release is a thing, which gives you an effect that is better than Tempered will. WAR can also Onslaught any knock backs. You will almost always use Holmgang as a tank CD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

You mention Sheltron and TBN, but you can use those skills on the WAR as well so I really don't see what you mean. Vengeance, Raw intution and Thrill also disagree with your statement of PLD and DRK having many short recast CDs, because in fact WAR is the definition of "tank with many strong, low recast CDs".

---

My point is that Sheltron and TBN allow PLD and DRK to take tankbusters while keeping other longer cooldowns for things like autoattacks and cleaves. In HW, Holmgang did 2 things: it could be used to replace a normal cooldown to survive a tankbuster, and it could be used to ignore mechanics that would usually force a swap. It was mostly used for the first option. The reason that was good was that it meant your cooldowns were up for other things, and PLD/DRK didn't really have any skills that did the same (PLD had Sheltron, but it was physical only). Now in SB, Sheltron can block everything and DRK got an incredibly strong shield. Sheltron is up every 20-25s, TBN is every 15s. My Sheltron is 28% with an i270 shield, that's almost identical to having Vengeance or Shadow Wall up for every single tankbuster, so why use Holmgang and drop to 1hp when I could use Sheltron and safely survive it? That's why Holmgang isn't as valuable.

I didn't say PLD/DRK got many low recast skills. They got one each but the recast is so incredibly short that they pretty much completely make up for WAR's shorter recasts/more skills.

The recent Reddit post on tank damage taken/mitigation also shows that WAR doesn't have any mitigation advantage. I'm not going to go read through it all and repeat it, but it showed that WAR+DRK groups generally took the most damage while PLD+DRK and PLD+WAR were pretty similar. PLD is the constant in groups with higher mitigation, not WAR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

Except Inner release is a thing, which gives you an effect that is better than Tempered will. WAR can also Onslaught any knock backs. You will almost always use Holmgang as a tank CD.

---

I've only done O5S as WAR so I don't know how other fights line up, but IR doesn't seem to line up perfectly with knockbacks and it's not something you'll want to delay for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

My point is that Sheltron and TBN allow PLD and DRK to take tankbusters while keeping other longer cooldowns for things like auto attacks and cleaves. Sheltron is up every 20-25s, TBN is every 15s. My Sheltron is 28% with an i270 shield, that's almost identical to having Vengeance or Shadow Wall up for every single tankbuster, so why use Holmgang and drop to 1hp when I could use Sheltron and safely survive it? That's why Holmgang isn't as valuable.

---

You will not survive Dual cast Thunder lll with Sheltron. You will not survive Hyperdrive in normal Kefka with Sheltron. You sure as hell won't survive anything in Ultimate with Sheltron over Holmgang. Sheltron is also a single use skill that can be taken up with auto attacks while holmgang is a tried and true 6 seconds invul.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

I didn't say PLD/DRK got many low recast skills. They got one each but the recast is so incredibly short that they pretty much completely make up for WAR's shorter recasts/more skills.

---

The moves in question that you mentioned are skills that can be used on the WAR too. So Saying they help DRK and PLD mitigation alone isnt exactly true when they also help the WAR's mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

The recent Reddit post on tank damage taken/mitigation also shows that WAR doesn't have any mitigation advantage. I'm not going to go read through it all and repeat it, but it showed that WAR+DRK groups generally took the most damage while PLD+DRK and PLD+WAR were pretty similar. PLD is the constant in groups with higher mitigation, not WAR.

---

That post used FFlogs damage taken as reference. This is fair because that's where most people take info from, but one thing FFlogs does is it accurately records how much damage is taken by each party member no matter what. This is an issue because when the WAR takes damage under Holmgang, they will obviously take the full brunt of the damage and that will be reflected on the WAR's damage taken, even though they could have have taken 999,999 damage and it would not have made a difference since the WAR used Holmgang. The same is true for Living dead. You take the full amount of damage. So obviously when you take the tank that makes damage intake into 0 with Hallowed ground, as well as Divine veil for the party, cover and intervention, the damage taken by each member will be much lower with a PLD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

I've only done O5S as WAR so I don't know how other fights line up, but IR doesn't seem to line up perfectly with knockbacks and it's not something you'll want to delay for them.

---

After you use Inner release inside of the ghost room, the next "All in the mind" happens exactly 100s after that phase ends. If you delay your inner release by a few globals, you will be in Inner release during the knock back.

As it stands, WAR's cannot line up IR with the knock back in o7s but this is a non issue since Onslaught and Holmgang do the same thing for the WAR.

In O8s, the WAR can use Inner release for either (or both) of the knockbacks from Graven Image and Aero assault, but it is not effective DPS wise to do this. Often, the WAR will be covered by the PLD for the aero assault so they can IR under storms eye.

Holm requiring a target is only really a problem in specific scenarios where you need to immunity something far away from a target (second stack in Chad) or something similar. In those cases its debilitating but the other two tanks can cover that easily so it's not a problem. It having the self-bind locked to it is a bit of a nuisance because you might have to use a really important ability (don't die) for something less good (don't fall off) but that's just the nature of the ability. For current content that's not really a problem, though it can be annoying/inconvenient to use Onslaught instead.

Realistically Holm suffers from similar issues to LD, though to a much lessor degree. Because it's not a true 'immunity' and instead a 'I don't die' button it still strains the healers to get you back up assuming that you aren't performing some action to save the tank 'naturally' (tank swap and WAR gets healed by already being used AoEs, regens, what have you). This obviously isn't as bad as LD, but it's still pretty bad in awkward circumstances where Hallowed shines much brighter, but that's a given. Holm is better than LD, but using it instead of normal cooldowns that put you in a better situation to survive further damage is a better choice. Most the time at least.

Holmgang is fine the way it is. Its usefulness is ultimately predicated on the type of content it's being used in, and the coordination of the group at large. The real issue is that living dead is worse but has triple the cooldown, and that's messed up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

i think WAR entire defensive kit need to be revised and rebalance in terms of mitigation power and recast in general, with holmgang and vengeance on top of the list.
probably fix inner beast and make it part of they efective defensive kit but that a revamp i think it have to be save to the next expansion, WAR's get to much love already.

---

Sure, let's lock dark mind behind Grit with same logic. Lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

Except Inner release is a thing, which gives you an effect that is better than Tempered will. WAR can also Onslaught any knock backs. You will almost always use Holmgang as a tank CD.

---

Having the stun sleep bind heavy knock back draw in nullification tied to inner release is a negative.

Tempered will is much more efficient when it comes to its use, as a WAR you have to choose between using Inner Release on CD or saving it for taking advantage of its defensive capabilities. Sure we have Onslaught, and in a perfect world we would always have it up and available, but sometimes it just doesnt work out that way.

Holmgang is overrated (the root can be just as detrimental as it can be beneficial) especially when compared to Hallowed Ground. Even if the CD is shorter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

Having the stun sleep bind heavy knock back draw in nullification tied to inner release is a negative.

---

Inner release is a DPS augment with an additional upside. It's intention is to increase your DPS, the immunities is purely an upside that has no place being there, but it's there. I don't see how that can be a negative when you already have so many different ways to answer knock backs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

Tempered will is much more efficient when it comes to its use, as a WAR you have to choose between using Inner Release on CD or saving it for taking advantage of its defensive capabilities. Sure we have Onslaught, and in a perfect world we would always have it up and available, but sometimes it just doesnt work out that way.

---

Tempered will is more liberal than Inner release, sure, but Tempered will is the ONLY way for a PLD to prevent knock backs. Also, the issue with Tempered Will and similar abilities has always been that Tempered will does not work on most knock back moves, like Sephirot's knock backs. This isnt the case with Gap closers like Corps-A-Corps since you are still following the rules of the Knock back, but you're using a Gap closer to cheese the knock back. You say WAR's may not have Onslaught, but it's a skill that you do not use often outside of Inner release since it is a DPS loss, and it also has a mere 15 second recase. I fail to see how "it doesnt work out that way". Especially when WAR has THREE different answers to knock backs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

Holmgang is overrated (the root can be just as detrimental as it can be beneficial) especially when compared to Hallowed Ground. Even if the CD is shorter.

---

You can use Holmgang two additional times before Hallowed can be used 2 times. If you use Hallowed purely for tank damage, which is often the only use it has, it will have effectively served the same purpose as Holmgang except Holmgang was used far more. I fail to see how Holmgang is in any was "overrated" when compared to Hallowed Ground of all CD's. Hallowed Ground is easily the most overrated CD in the game. It's great when it's up, but it's up every 7 minutes and that is really awful compared to Holmgang.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

the immunities is purely an upside that has no place being there

---

That’s the negative, I get that IR is a DPS ability, and it’s great that WAR has 3 (?situationally dependent?) Knock-back counters, but we seem to be in agreement, that saving IR for that is not worth it in most cases.

And while cheesing knock-backs with a Gap Closer can be fun, I personally prefer the Method gained by Tempered Will (we could probably shorten the CD on this, I am aware it’s PLD only Knockback Counter), which is Staying put.

It says in the tool tip for Tempered Will, it applies to “most” Knock-backs, and from my experience most seems to be the case.

You will also notice the tool tip for Holmgang says nothing about Nullifying knock-backs, just that it binds both the caster and the target. It has been my experience with Holmgang that the Knock-back more often than not, punts me, and then I am just bound away from the target until the timer on Holmgang falls off.

I am not saying that Holmgang isn’t a good skill, or that it’s not useful, but it’s definitely not OP. I personally find Hallowed Ground, even with its long CD, more useful than Holmgang. I also find WAR more fun to play, but appreciate the diversity of both Jobs.

Holmgang is fine as is, I personally would rather see them separate the abilities in Inner Release, Or flip the Actions tied to the stances on Equilibrium.

Hallowed can be used to cheese most debuffs connected with TB, e.g. Susanos slashing debuff, stacks from cleave in O2s, the whole stack mechanic in O7s or in Shinryu the tb debuff.

And just that you can use holmgang every 3 mins, doesnt mean that you do so.... because using holmgang without dying or knockback has no purpose.
So saying something like "in 12 mins you can use 5 holmgangs, but only 2 halloweds" doesnt make much sense. There's a reason why we don't see 4-5 holmgangs (more likely 2-3) in most 9 min ex savage fights.
Same in dungeons... it's most likely 2 hallowed and maaaaybe 3 holmgang.
Because of it's short cooldown you can use it more flexible, but in most fights not really that much more often.


Imo, only LD needs a buff/fix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ImDingDing

Sure, let's lock dark mind behind Grit with same logic. Lol

---

with the same logic DRK sould have a 120 CD on shadow wall + a effect and longer duration, grit offGDC with no mp cost and a extra CD that can empower a party shield we dont have and our self heals from souleater need to be unlock from grit, but this is not a threat about what DRK needs, we have already some of those and we are go to recive hopefully a lot of chages on all of those.
Dark mind is only comparable to raw intuition with the diference Dark mind is useless against physical compared to raw that can feed shake it off and being extra magic mitigation.

but this is a threat about how holmgang is so strong in terms of being aviable so much, in heavensward you still have foresight so yeah it make sense due you only have vengeance as a primary mitigation tool on optimal gameplay, but now you have rampart with is shorted recast and better overall mitigation on both type of damage vs foresight physical armor boost, there is no sense WAR have the same mitigation tools as the other 2 with unfairly short colddowns compared to he brothers, with the current kit holmang is pretty OP.

I always said the WAR 2.1 buffs were too excessive. But holmgang wasn’t the major issue for me. Vengeance was. 2 min cd for 30% mitigation AND counter attacks? It’s absurdly strong.

Also another downside to holmgang you didn’t mention is the 6 second duration. While PLDs hallowed can eat 10 seconds of damage from the moment it’s popped and living dead can eat a potential 9~ seconds of damage from the moment it triggers, holmgang only eats 6 seconds from the moment it’s popped. That’s enough to eat a tank buster and maybe an auto attack if you timed it well, while the other two are able to mitigate several hits after the buster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Also another downside to holmgang you didn’t mention is the 6 second duration. While PLDs hallowed can eat 10 seconds of damage from the moment it’s popped and living dead can eat a potential 9~ seconds of damage from the moment it triggers, holmgang only eats 6 seconds from the moment it’s popped. That’s enough to eat a tank buster and maybe an auto attack if you timed it well, while the other two are able to mitigate several hits after the buster.

---

only hallowed mitigate the hits but thats not the thing, for each hallowed a PLD use WAR use 2 holmgang and have half of the recast ready with means 12 seconds of being unkillable against 10 seconds of invincible.
figths are around betwen 8-14 min length making PLD being complety unable to fit more that 1 hallowed in most fights vs the 2-4 holmgans a WAR can fit in easily, so we go in to the paper against reality with in reality the oportunity/cost of holmgang its complety superior to hallowed.

vs living dead the skill dont really have a lenght of 10 seconds, many will say 10 seconds for use it and other 10 to being inmortal thats are 20 sec!!!, please no, controled uses of living dead and ¡¡oh shit!! moments make the previous 10 seconds mean nothing in reality, its the same as someone use holmgang or hallowed, specially in planned uses of this skills no tank will be healed if they go to use one of this in a incoming mechanic, and !!oh shit!! moments are that, !!oh shit!!living dead and i eat whatever is going to kill me if the animation let you.
living dead life use is when it pops and then is a healing check, keep walkind dead up just for eat 1-2 AA tend to be more annoying that just top it and let the regens do they job, keep it its only good when multiple TB or TB follow with a aoe, but those are rare and still pretty annoying bcs thend to be tie to positioning mechanics or other stuff.
we are agreed living dead need a change so depending if devs do something this patch or not we can compared, but current living vs holmgang clear winner is holmgang, better uptime use, less healers effort required, holmgang only weaknes is being unable to face mechanics that dont have a target with are pretty pretty rare but for TB healers are to powerful they can raise you HP in a moment, more with convalescence with are 120 recast so it can be up for every holmgang so the value as a TB skill is insane and pretty broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

---

There's this thing called Inner Beast, you know...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Holmgang....never really had a need for it unless it's in PvP or front line otherwise it's pretty much useless if you know how to tank with a WAR properly The whole binding is over rated and only real draw back is if your stuck in a mayor aoe or conal attack that can be avoided. .

---

you are kidding right?

if you never had a need for holmgang then you obviously never touched savage, bc even o1 and o5 had countless chances to constantly abuse it. In Sigma especially it's the strongest cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's this thing called Inner Beast, you know...

---

ikr it's like they think beastgauge=fell cleave

outside of IR FC isn't much more dmg than IB . against like flatten you need IB. imo its fight design, war has too many cd so they dont even need IB in most levelcap content since HG and proper rotation keeps everything available anyway, without even needing to touch defiance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

Excuse me? Where was DRK mentioned? Holmgang is way too powerful on its own, it has nothing to do with the other tanks and everything to do with how stupidly strong strong move is. Holmgang could be swapped to any other tank and it would not make it any less broken. Yet despite how strong the move is, it is on the tank that has the most amount of cooldowns and the shortest recast CD's. Holmgang absolutely does not need to be on a 3 minute CD when that is the same CD as Sentinel and Shadow wall. it doesn't help that Vengeance blows Sentinel and Shadow wall out of the water already. And yes, that is taking into consideration Blackest night and Sheltron. Lets not ignore the fact that TBN and Intervention can be used on the WAR.

---

But as expected, that's what it turned in to. "Holmgang is too strong" obviously implies a comparison to DRK/PLD's mitigation kit. Holmgang is neither weaker nor stronger than it's ever been. In actuality what's changed is the rest of War's kit, along with the other tanks, and as such War now has so many options that it simply makes the other tanks seem inferior.

But, instead of encouraging SE to bring the other tanks up to level at which War functions, you'd rather just have them bash it with the nerf bat so we can all be miserable together. Misery loves company.

(food for thought, Shield swipe offers 2x-3x more raw damage throughout a fight than Vengeance)

Everything about WAR is ridiculous honestly. Their burst damage, their mitigation, their self healing. Shake it off was the last straw to me, how in the hell did that get past balance checks?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Everything about WAR is ridiculous honestly. Their burst damage, their mitigation, their self healing. Shake it off was the last straw to me, how in the hell did that past balance checks?

---

It went from the worst ability to the omg no one dies ability.

I can't knock it, im a WAR main and I love having a party mitigation ability.

To OP. Stop it. Please.

Other things need nerfs on WAR and holmgang is on the bottom of the list. Even I can see WAR is a tad OP. (I mean, I love it, but even I can admit its slightly too much)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

But, instead of encouraging SE to bring the other tanks up to level at which War functions, you'd rather just have them bash it with the nerf bat so we can all be miserable together. Misery loves company.

---

That is how good design generally works yes. If WAR is too strong and the solution is to bring the other tanks up then all tanks are too good against bosses, then bosses have to be scaled up then DPS and healers are too weak and.... that is called power creep, and we don't want that.

Good design is to both bring down and balance things that are too powerful, and bring up things that are too weak. IMO making living dead 3 mins and Holmgang 5 minutes would be a step towards better balance (of course DRK needs an overhaul as well, but that's another story).

People seem to be disregarding the usefulness of the 3min cooldown, I seem to distinctly remember Neo Exdeath requiring a tank swap if you were DRK/PLD but the tankbusters could be entirely handled by WAR on its own. Sure, we would have this problem but with DRK instead if LD was 3mins, but LD requires a lot more healing (usually a benediction or equivilent), which is a higher tradeoff than WAR has (since WARs self healing is also far better than DRKs)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neophyte

Hallowed can be used to cheese most debuffs connected with TB, e.g. Susanos slashing debuff, stacks from cleave in O2s, the whole stack mechanic in O7s or in Shinryu the tb debuff.

And just that you can use holmgang every 3 mins, doesnt mean that you do so.... because using holmgang without dying or knockback has no purpose.

So saying something like "in 12 mins you can use 5 holmgangs, but only 2 halloweds" doesnt make much sense. There's a reason why we don't see 4-5 holmgangs (more likely 2-3) in most 9 min ex savage fights.
Same in dungeons... it's most likely 2 hallowed and maaaaybe 3 holmgang.
Because of it's short cooldown you can use it more flexible, but in most fights not really that much more often.


Imo, only LD needs a buff/fix.

---

In regards to the "Hallowed can be used to cheese most debuffs", the reason why Hallowed can ignore those debuffs is because of the nature of the attack you are taking. The debuff only applies after you have taken 1 or more points of damage from the attack, so if you take 0, you recieve no debuff. My point is, any tank can "cheese", they just need to take 0 damage with shields.

How many holmgang uses you get in a fight depends on how many places you can get them. But you know you can always put them on tank busters for sure. Anytime you take a tank buster, that's a place you can use holmgang so long as it's up. If you choose to take a tank buster with mitigation CD's instead of Holmgang when Holmgang is up, then you only have yourself to blame for low Holmgang uses. The strength of this is that it lets you run most of your CD's on auto attacks while tank busters are met with either one big CD or holmgang. It's extremely powerful to be able to have so many CD's running for auto attacks, but it also creates a dynamic where you will use holmgang-> co-tank immune-> holmgang for most tank busters, creating a tank invul meta. I think this is unhealthy long term because ultimately, all tank damage is a joke since you would just invul it, and most autos you take have large CD's on them, the CD's you would have otherwise put on your tank busters.

Personally, I think this tank invul meta is awesome since it makes my job as a tank much easier. Tank damage is not something I ever worry about anymore, as with auto attacks. This is a boon for healers as well since most if not all healing done is oGCD at higher levels of play. It enables tanks to dish out lots of damage and mitigation as well as healers and short tank invuls is the reason for this. However, long term I don't think it would be very fun to proceed with this kind of playstyle. How exciting would you really be to tank content when you know you can run tank invuls for most damage and heavy CD's for the things you can tank invul? In omega 4 savage, you currently use Holmgang on all Delta attacks and the MT will take double thunder lll's which is a tank swap. You take a complicated, hard hitting tank buster that requires careful voke/shirks from both tanks and heavy magic CD's to "just holmgang it bro". The hardest hitting tank buster this tier, Hyperdrive happens 4 times in clown Kefka and two of them are taken with Holmgang and the other with Hallowed, meaning that out of 4 hard hitting tank busters, only ONE of them is actually mitigated, and when it is mitigated, it is mitigated with Rampart, Sentinel and Sheltron as well as Apoc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Good design is to both bring down and balance things that are too powerful, and bring up things that are too weak. IMO making living dead 3 mins and Holmgang 5 minutes would be a step towards better balance (of course DRK needs an overhaul as well, but that's another story).

---

With how powerful Living Dead is in a controlled environment, giving it a shorter C/D would be way too strong. No immunity should have less than a 4minute CD, otherwise as Saeno points out, it simply creates an invulnerability meta where half the threatening tank stuff in the fight is simply ignored due to just how low re-cast timers are on Invulns. Even then I think a 4-minute timer for an invuln would be too gracious.

All Living Dead really needs is a conva effect slapped onto walking dead to help make it easier to use in 4-mans/easier to use with less experienced healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

The hardest hitting tank buster this tier, Hyperdrive happens 4 times in clown Kefka and two of them are taken with Holmgang and the other with Hallowed, meaning that out of 4 hard hitting tank busters, only ONE of them is actually mitigated, and when it is mitigated, it is mitigated with Rampart, Sentinel and Sheltron as well as Apoc.

---

I've tanked all 4 Hyperdrive without much issue, you couldn't do that with ExDeath's Thunder IIIs. So is it the abilities, or the content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I've tanked all 4 Hyperdrive without much issue, you couldn't do that with ExDeath's Thunder IIIs. So is it the abilities, or the content?

---

Every single Thunder lll used by either Exdeath or Neo Exdeath could be taken with a invul so long as you had a WAR. You would always Holmgang the first and third Thunder lll from Exdeath, and you would always Holmgang on Delta attacks.

I think it has a lot more to do with the abilities than the content because for Holmgang to not be up for most hard hitting busters, those busters would need to happen faster than every 90 seconds. (Holmgang is used for the first. 90s later, Living or Hallowed is used, and then 90s later Holmgang is back up).

EDIT: You can also do something like: Holmgang->Hard mitigate +OT utility->Holmgang if the busters happen every 90s or later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

With how powerful Living Dead is in a controlled environment, giving it a shorter C/D would be way too strong. No immunity should have less than a 4minute CD, otherwise as Saeno points out, it simply creates an invulnerability meta where half the threatening tank stuff in the fight is simply ignored due to just how low re-cast timers are on Invulns. Even then I think a 4-minute timer for an invuln would be too gracious.

All Living Dead really needs is a conva effect slapped onto walking dead to help make it easier to use in 4-mans/easier to use with less experienced healers.

---

Or it shouldn't outright kill you. Being punished because another player couldn't keep up is god-awful design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Or it shouldn't outright kill you. Being punished because another player couldn't keep up is god-awful design.

---

I'm not denying that. My addition is my opinion on what the current iteration of walking dead needs to be more useable outside of controlled situations, and based on how averse Yoshi-P's team are to re-making skills unless absolutely necessary, probably a more realistic change than trying to come up with & program something entirely new that's not just a copy-paste of HG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's this thing called Inner Beast, you know...

---

As long as the tank meta is to ignore tank stance and do as much DPS as possible, Inner Beast is irrelevant and might as well not exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Everything about WAR is ridiculous honestly. Their burst damage, their mitigation, their self healing. Shake it off was the last straw to me, how in the hell did that get past balance checks?

---

The only thing ridiculour with WAR is the bias against it. Burst is nowhere near as relevant as it was in Alexander because pushing phases to skip mechanics isn't a thing anymore. PLD's mitigation is just as good after the block change. PLD's self healing is by far the best, at the cost of some DPS (but it can even heal other people). Shake it Off is a weaker Divine Veil on a shorter cooldown, meanwhile PLD has Passage of Arms for even more raidwide mitigation when you want it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

In omega 4 savage, you currently use Holmgang on all Delta attacks and the MT will take double thunder lll's which is a tank swap. You take a complicated, hard hitting tank buster that requires careful voke/shirks from both tanks and heavy magic CD's to "just holmgang it bro". The hardest hitting tank buster this tier, Hyperdrive happens 4 times in clown Kefka and two of them are taken with Holmgang and the other with Hallowed, meaning that out of 4 hard hitting tank busters, only ONE of them is actually mitigated, and when it is mitigated, it is mitigated with Rampart, Sentinel and Sheltron as well as Apoc.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

Every single Thunder lll used by either Exdeath or Neo Exdeath could be taken with a invul so long as you had a WAR. You would always Holmgang the first and third Thunder lll from Exdeath, and you would always Holmgang on Delta attacks.

---

Against normal Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could invuln the first two Thunder IIIs and only have to swap on the last. With good DPS you could completely skip the third one and not need to swap. Against Neo Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could Living Dead all 3 Delta Attacks and the PLD could Hallowed two of the Double Attacks, just like a PLD+WAR group would do. Against normal Kefka a PLD+DRK group can invuln 3 of the 4 Hyperdrives just like a PLD+WAR group.

I really don't see how Holmgang specifically is the problem when groups without a WAR can do almost the exact same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

As long as the tank meta is to ignore tank stance and do as much DPS as possible, Inner Beast is irrelevant and might as well not exist.

---

You can't say that PLD and DRK's mitigation is more powerful if you decide on your own to ignore the most powerful mitigation skill of WAR.
It's like people saying DRK can't mitigate because they're obsessed with spending all of their MP solely into Dark Arts.

But if we go into that logic...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

PLD's self healing is by far the best, at the cost of some DPS (but it can even heal other people).

---

...as long as the tank meta favors doing as much DPS as possible, Clemency is irrelevant and might as well not exist :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saeno

Every single Thunder lll used by either Exdeath or Neo Exdeath could be taken with a invul so long as you had a WAR. You would always Holmgang the first and third Thunder lll from Exdeath, and you would always Holmgang on Delta attacks.

---

What I meant was Warrior could not take them all without swap. I can take all Hyperdrives without a swap no problem. That's a difference in content design that has nothing to do with abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Or it shouldn't outright kill you. Being punished because another player couldn't keep up is god-awful design.

---

Exactly. 3 min LD would still be trash. It's not a well thought out ability to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

As long as the tank meta is to ignore tank stance and do as much DPS as possible, Inner Beast is irrelevant and might as well not exist.

---

How do you say this and also mention Clemency and Passage of arms as upsides to PLD? Those skills dont do damage, so according to you they may as well not exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

The only thing ridiculour with WAR is the bias against it. Burst is nowhere near as relevant as it was in Alexander because pushing phases to skip mechanics isn't a thing anymore. PLD's mitigation is just as good after the block change. PLD's self healing is by far the best, at the cost of some DPS (but it can even heal other people). Shake it Off is a weaker Divine Veil on a shorter cooldown, meanwhile PLD has Passage of Arms for even more raidwide mitigation when you want it.

---

Warrior now and always has been an insanely powerful job since 2.1. The fact that people have been asking for other tanks to be buffed for over 4 years to be on the same level as WAR should say just how powerful WAR has been. There isn't bias towards WAR as much as it is people being tired of everyone always asking other tanks to be buffed. it's been the same song and dance for a very, very long time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

Against normal Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could invuln the first two Thunder IIIs and only have to swap on the last. With good DPS you could completely skip the third one and not need to swap. Against Neo Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could Living Dead all 3 Delta Attacks and the PLD could Hallowed two of the Double Attacks, just like a PLD+WAR group would do. Against normal Kefka a PLD+DRK group can invuln 3 of the 4 Hyperdrives just like a PLD+WAR group.

I really don't see how Holmgang specifically is the problem when groups without a WAR can do almost the exact same thing.

---

Firstly, "almost exact" and exact are two completely different things. And while the PLD+DRK comp can cheese Dual cast thunder in Neo Exdeath and Hyperdrives in clown Kefka with the similar efficiency, that doesn't mean you're better off without Holmgang. For example, you cannot Living dead both of the final Ultimate Embraces in God Kefka. You CAN however Holmgang the two last Ultimate Embraces. I also want to make it clear that Living Dead should be a little bit longer on the recast but obviously it needs to be heavily changed for that, in that the full HP requirement would need to be more or less abolished or nerfed heavily. Living Dead even at 5 minutes still doesn't do the insane amount of work that Holmgang does since Holmgang is still used more often and has little to no downsides.