BLU DPS

If BLU is added, make it dps. Thoughts?

So a Red Mage clone?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So a Red Mage clone?

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Is RDM a BRD/MCH/SMN/BLM/NIN/MNK/SAM/DRG Clone?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Is RDM a BRD/MCH/SMN/BLM/NIN/MNK/SAM/DRG Clone?

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They mean the magic and melee loop red mages use. Personally if they do go this way, id say they can make the blu mage skill steal mechanic different enough from red mage to make it feel unique.

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Originally Posted by Dhaid

They mean the magic and melee loop red mages use. Personally if they do go this way, id say they can make the blu mage skill steal mechanic different enough from red mage to make it feel unique.

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And in what way would it's being a DPS necessitate it follow that same stale convention? In what way would its being a tank make that less likely? (Have you met Paladin?)

Its role is irrelevant to its playflow or mechanics of DPS, save that a tank will necessarily have fewer abilities by which to broaden, deepen, flesh out, or otherwise make that playflow or those mechanics unique. Conflating all possible designs for BLU with... RDM, of all things, on a mere basis of role is absurd.

@Seraphor
If there are components you do or don't want in the job, if ever it is actually implemented, perhaps you ought speak to those directly?

I was thinking about this the other day and had the weird idea to make it a strength based melee dps that weaved ogcd blue magic betwee combos to build blue magic points that would allow it to use powerful blue magic like a spell from king behemoth or ixion. The level 50 ability would be azure lore (can only be activated with enough blue magic points). Azure would have to be active to cast the powerful blue magic. For weapons it'd use dual kilij (curved sword originating from Turkey) to perform melee combos that could restore mp and deal damage.

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

I was thinking about this the other day and had the weird idea to make it a strength based melee dps that weaved ogcd blue magic betwee combos to build blue magic points that would allow it to use powerful blue magic like a spell from king behemoth or ixion. The level 50 ability would be azure lore (can only be activated with enough blue magic points). Azure would have to be active to cast the powerful blue magic. For weapons it'd use dual kilij (curved sword originating from Turkey) to perform melee combos that could restore mp and deal damage.

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I thought about something like this too and it seems simple enough. People, everytime this is brought up, say it would be like red mage. Nope, make it a melee dps that uses magic abilities. The "monster" abilities traditionally associated with the role can be gained from "Special monsters" during the story missions. Done. You build up blue magic and use powerful abilities.

It would be cool if you could get different hotbars for said abilities, (like you can set which ones you want to use, sort of like how summoner chooses which summon they want, and they each come with their own hot bar).

If blue mage were to be a DPS, it'd probably be more fair to compare to whichever other DPS job of its type brings a boatload of utility as Square would have to seriously screw up to not make blue mage a utility DPS.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And in what way would it's being a DPS necessitate it follow that same stale convention? In what way would its being a tank make that less likely? (Have you met Paladin?)

@Seraphor
If there are components you do or don\\'t want in the job, if ever it is actually implemented, perhaps you ought speak to those directly?

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I have done, ad nauseum.

A blue mage is iconic for learning it\\'s skills from enemies, typically by getting hit.
That\\'s not going to work in XIV, but what could work is a job mechanic whereby taking hits fills a gauge that allows you to cast blue magic, in between your melee weaponskill.

Getting hit as a job mechanic can only work for a tank.
Not to mention the classic blue magic spell set is already suitable for a tank.
Damage mitigation and weak gimmicky heals, debuffing utility and a few potent AoE damaging spells.
It already looks like a DRK/PLD skill set.

I honestly don't know why people are so obsessed over Blue Mage, it will never be a real Blue Mage that steals abilities from enemies, your job quests would probably be "go there and steal that ability" but all in all that is the same thing that other jobs have. It would just be a weird caster job without a clear identity and I don't see why we need one.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

it will never be a real Blue Mage that steals abilities from enemies

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Blue Mage is the most varied job in the series and it hasn't always literally 'stolen' abilities from enemies, sometimes those abilities are learned from items.
So what is a "real" Blue Mage?

Blue Mage in the series:

FFV: Learns by getting hit.
FFVI Learns by seeing the skill getting executed, therefore blind stops the process.
FFVII: Learns by getting hit.
FFVIII: Learns by using an item.
FFIX: Learns by eating a weak monster.
FFX: Learns by getting hit.(CORRECTION: Learns using Lancet. Thanks Mikey_R I'm stupid)
FFXI: Don't know.
FFTA: Learns by getting hit.
FFTA2: Learns by getting hit.
FF Explorers: Learns by having the monster use the skill then killing it (Keep in mind that BLU here is considered a tank).

BLU's main mechanic is that it uses a monster's own skill, not that it gets hit, that's just a condition that changed a lot.

One correction, FFX Kimahri learns Blue Magic/Ronso Rage from using Lancet, you don't need to be hit by the attack or even see it.

I'd make it a tank, but anything goes I guess.

Also, blue mages have a plethora of ways to learn skills, far from only getting hit by them.

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Originally Posted by Alexalibur

FFXI: Don't know.

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You have a slight chance to learn it by having the enemy execute the skill then killing it. The blue mage has to be alive to learn it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I have done, ad nauseum.

A blue mage is iconic for learning it\\'s skills from enemies, typically by getting hit.

Getting hit as a job mechanic can only work for a tank.
Not to mention the classic blue magic spell set is already suitable for a tank.
Damage mitigation and weak gimmicky heals, debuffing utility and a few potent AoE damaging spells.
It already looks like a DRK/PLD skill set.

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I highly doubt that the BLU is going to learn new spells on the fly while tanking a fight .....these would best be suited to learning via lvl quest and fighting/getting hit by a monster then. Saying that, BLU can totally be DPS. If it's a tank, are we learning new skills from every monster that we get hit by? It could work either way. There are enough threads in the Tank side on this subject....I was hoping that people had more DPS information and thoughts to contribute.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

I highly doubt that the BLU is going to learn new spells on the fly while tanking a fight .....these would best be suited to learning via lvl quest and fighting/getting hit by a monster then. Saying that, BLU can totally be DPS. If it's a tank, are we learning new skills from every monster that we get hit by? It could work either way. There are enough threads in the Tank side on this subject....I was hoping that people had more DPS information and thoughts to contribute.

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Of course it wouldn't learn abilities by getting hit.
The best way to translate this to ffxiv however is by giving BLU a job mechanic where getting hit fills a job gauge that allows them to use their blue magic spells.
Which would only work as a tank.

I posted a Blue Mage DPS idea a long long time ago, back in ARR I think, essentially instead of learning from enemies it learned from allies instead. I don't think it was a very popular idea.

It had abilities along the theme seen below:
Learn: placed on a party member, tracks abilities used for the next 8s and stores the most potent one for use later.
Copy: placed on an ally, an aetherial version of your character appears next to the target and copies their attacks.
Learn II: used after copy, stores the aetherial version of your character from Copy for later use.
Assimilate: copies buffs from the targeted player onto yourself at half strength.
Diffusion: spreads buffs on yourself to other nearby party members.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I posted a Blue Mage DPS idea a long long time ago, back in ARR I think, essentially instead of learning from enemies it learned from allies instead. I don't think it was a very popular idea.

It had abilities along the theme seen below:
Learn: placed on a party member, tracks abilities used for the next 8s and stores the most potent one for use later.
Copy: placed on an ally, an aetherial version of your character appears next to the target and copies their attacks.
Learn II: used after copy, stores the aetherial version of your character from Copy for later use.
Assimilate: copies buffs from the targeted player onto yourself at half strength.
Diffusion: spreads buffs on yourself to other nearby party members.

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I like this very much

I'd like to see Blu be a heavy utility tank. I'd like to see rdm turn more into the heavy utility caster dps (because rn I think it's lacking for the amount of damage it does) rather than Blu. And I'd just much rather see a new tank or healer than more dps.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I posted a Blue Mage DPS idea a long long time ago, back in ARR I think, essentially instead of learning from enemies it learned from allies instead. I don't think it was a very popular idea.

It had abilities along the theme seen below:
Learn: placed on a party member, tracks abilities used for the next 8s and stores the most potent one for use later.
Copy: placed on an ally, an aetherial version of your character appears next to the target and copies their attacks.
Learn II: used after copy, stores the aetherial version of your character from Copy for later use.
Assimilate: copies buffs from the targeted player onto yourself at half strength.
Diffusion: spreads buffs on yourself to other nearby party members.

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Wouldn't that make it a mime?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Wouldn't that make it a mime?

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It would, I also pictured it having a special monster action tab to draw skills from instead of the cross-class skills though.
I suppose it would be a mix of both jobs.

Honestly, what I remember of the original idea wouldn't really work in current FFXIV.

I wanted it to branch from a hypothetical musketeer class for one.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I posted a Blue Mage DPS idea a long long time ago, back in ARR I think, essentially instead of learning from enemies it learned from allies instead. I don't think it was a very popular idea.

It had abilities along the theme seen below:
Learn: placed on a party member, tracks abilities used for the next 8s and stores the most potent one for use later.
Copy: placed on an ally, an aetherial version of your character appears next to the target and copies their attacks.
Learn II: used after copy, stores the aetherial version of your character from Copy for later use.
Assimilate: copies buffs from the targeted player onto yourself at half strength.
Diffusion: spreads buffs on yourself to other nearby party members.

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A nightmare to balance I would assume, also would require an extreme amount of coordination to use the skills on the right time. We will never see anything like this but I gotta admit the idea is unique.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So a Red Mage clone?

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This mindset is why we still don't have Ranger or Thief.

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Originally Posted by GavynG

This mindset is why we still don't have Ranger or Thief.

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...good?

We do have Thief, it's called Rogue.
We do have Ranger, it's called Bard.

It's also the same reason we won't get Geomancer or Time Mage.

Adding in dozens of identical jobs with slightly different variations, not only wastes tons of developer time and money that could be better spent on actual content, but it adds pointless and unecessary job bloat that will only confuse new players and screw with balance.

I swear some people don't understand this game at all.

I think you want FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

We do have Thief, it's called Rogue.
We do have Ranger, it's called Bard.

It's also the same reason we won't get Geomancer or Time Mage.

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While I kinda agree with the first two statement, I completly disagree with Geomancer. Enough people showed great ideas about what Geomancer could be, and would be really different from the AST that we have. It's not because one time in the FF series a class was close to one that we know on ff14 that the ff14 version of this class will be similar. The best exemple would be RDM, which is way different in ff14 than in most ff (in my humble opinion).

And in this thread, a lot of people have great and not so great ideas for BLU, each being vastly different from what ff14 proposes atm. While I don't see the classic BLU being usable here (learn spells from monsters by being hit, etc.), I do think that if it is implemented, they'll learn their spells by doing some "hunts" during their quests. I'm pretty confident that SE will make a pretty great BLU if they do it one day, since the new classes were pretty unique and great each time they added it (especially with Stormblood).

I do love the idea of Jandor though, but is really hard to balance, and as someone said, closer to a mime than a BLU ._.

And if SE and the playerbase were to think outside the (FFXIV) box, they could make BLU a more complex job than the others, having it go out there to actually learn spells like the rest of the series (be it by eating enemies, using items dropped from those selfsame mobs, or just like on FFXI). But no, everything has to be for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Nobuyoki

While I kinda agree with the first two statement, I completly disagree with Geomancer. Enough people showed great ideas about what Geomancer could be, and would be really different from the AST that we have. It's not because one time in the FF series a class was close to one that we know on ff14 that the ff14 version of this class will be similar. The best exemple would be RDM, which is way different in ff14 than in most ff (in my humble opinion).

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Various reasons why we won't get a straight up Geomancer. Most of all being that they're already established within ffxiv lore to be nearly identical to Conjurers.

They could have made Geomancer something unique, but instead they wrote themselves into a corner by making it a healer that uses wind, earth and water elemental spells.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Various reasons why we won't get a straight up Geomancer. Most of all being that they're already established within ffxiv lore to be nearly identical to Conjurers.

They could have made Geomancer something unique, but instead they wrote themselves into a corner by making it a healer that uses wind, earth and water elemental spells.

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Tbf, they could use the Soulfont aspect of WHM to further move it away from CNJ, and make CNJ/GEO a job in its own right. The Lifestream motif could be the one remainder from the water (and healing) aspect of CNJ to remain with CNJ, while CNJ/GEO take a more direct Water approach.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Various reasons why we won't get a straight up Geomancer. Most of all being that they're already established within ffxiv lore to be nearly identical to Conjurers.

They could have made Geomancer something unique, but instead they wrote themselves into a corner by making it a healer that uses wind, earth and water elemental spells.

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I'm loath to admit it, but based on the AST job quest line, it really feels like the devs decided to give Geomancer nothing more than a "cameo appearance" in-name only. It's almost as if the devs said: "hey, I don't think we'll make Geomancer an actual job in XIV, so let's just mention them in another job's quest line and basically write them off as a slightly different version of an already existing thing. There, it's technically in XIV."

It's a damn shame.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tbf, they could use the Soulfont aspect of WHM to further move it away from CNJ, and make CNJ/GEO a job in its own right. The Lifestream motif could be the one remainder from the water (and healing) aspect of CNJ to remain with CNJ, while CNJ/GEO take a more direct Water approach.

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I don't even think the devs like nor want to have classes being any more a part of what they already are. Classes seem like baggage they were stuck with from XIV 1.0. They tried branching 2 jobs (of different roles though) from one class and they've said "never again."

Really, the only thing that can save Geomancer from being "that-one-job-mentioned-in-some-other-job's-story-that's-too-similar-to-be-it's-own-job" is some terribly creative writing like: "Oh hey, this one NPC learned how to be a different kind of Geomancer, job quest starts here!"

I'd love for Geomancers to be something unique and a possible new job candidate, but how they were introduced into XIV doesn't leave a good outlook.

Sorry to derail the BLU thread further. But yeah, Bluemage, sure, why not. Love em

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Originally Posted by GavynG

This mindset is why we still don't have Ranger or Thief.

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They already said Rogue is supposed to be Thief. There is a reason why Rogue has the skill Mug. There was a reason why they didn't call it Thief but I can't remember it was said in a interview. I think it was something like it being weird the WoL being called a Thief so they decided on Rogue. I can't remember the wording exactly, I would need to find it. Also Ranger would most likely be a selfish DPS ranged class. I would rather they not add another selfish dps class, they can't balance them.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Really, the only thing that can save Geomancer from being "that-one-job-mentioned-in-some-other-job's-story-that's-too-similar-to-be-it's-own-job" is some terribly creative writing like: "Oh hey, this one NPC learned how to be a different kind of Geomancer, job quest starts here!"

I'd love for Geomancers to be something unique and a possible new job candidate, but how they were introduced into XIV doesn't leave a good outlook.
m

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My thoughts exactly, in fact I even came up with a viable concept.
Geometrist. Like AST is a combination of Time Mage, Astrologer and Gambler, this would be a combination of Arithmetist and Geomancer as a Healer.
Using ground-based aetherprobes to set up AoE healing fields mixed with some geometry skills, with the particular aspect of that terrain’s aether dictates what unique effects you can use, aka, geomancy.

blu could work if the added debuff style spells back in the game that you have to learn or have coppied into your body via quest

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Of course it wouldn't learn abilities by getting hit.
The best way to translate this to ffxiv however is by giving BLU a job mechanic where getting hit fills a job gauge that allows them to use their blue magic spells.
Which would only work as a tank.

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This is probably the more lore-friendly way I've ever seen suggested to adding Blue Mage into the game while still allowing it to fit into the holy trinity of role types. Based on skill bloat alone there's not way the blue mage in this game would learn its skills from being hit by enemies (or by using lancet, or by eating them or their.... leavings, or by seeing their attacks) but if you charged up your blue magic from taking hits to unleash powerful spells, then you're onto something. This kind of system already has somewhat of a basis in the ninki gauge on ninja (charges on auto attacks) and the kenki gauge on samurai (charges on weapon skills) so charging one when you take damage would definitely be interesting.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

snip

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I think a better comparison would be Paladin. When they are in Shield Oath they build gauge when they block, When they use Sword Oath they build gauge when they auto attack. So it's very similar to that but instead you build gauge from getting hit (just without the need for a block).

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Originally Posted by Remus

I think a better comparison would be Paladin. When they are in Shield Oath they build gauge when they block, When they use Sword Oath they build gauge when they auto attack. So it's very similar to that but instead you build gauge from getting hit (just without the need for a block).

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Kind of like current Sword Oath in DPS stance and Blood Price when in tank stance, then.

That would seem to be a simple enough system, would be interested to see how that would work if they actually took the idea. It would make sense to have your blue magics swap based on stance like warrior. So skills like mighty guard or pearl wind in tank stance and flame breath and other offensive skills in DPS stance. Would let them expand the amount of blue magic you could have.

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Originally Posted by Remus

They already said Rogue is supposed to be Thief. There is a reason why Rogue has the skill Mug. There was a reason why they didn't call it Thief but I can't remember it was said in a interview. I think it was something like it being weird the WoL being called a Thief so they decided on Rogue. I can't remember the wording exactly, I would need to find it. Also Ranger would most likely be a selfish DPS ranged class. I would rather they not add another selfish dps class, they can't balance them.

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They basically say it in game, the rogues guild's old name was the upright thieves that kept the pirates from getting out of line. The rogues guild is just a cleaned up name given to them.

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Originally Posted by Remus

I think a better comparison would be Paladin. When they are in Shield Oath they build gauge when they block, When they use Sword Oath they build gauge when they auto attack. So it's very similar to that but instead you build gauge from getting hit (just without the need for a block).

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So then just play PLD lol

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

...good?

We do have Thief, it's called Rogue.
We do have Ranger, it's called Bard.

It's also the same reason we won't get Geomancer or Time Mage.

Adding in dozens of identical jobs with slightly different variations, not only wastes tons of developer time and money that could be better spent on actual content, but it adds pointless and unecessary job bloat that will only confuse new players and screw with balance.

I swear some people don't understand this game at all.

I think you want FFXI.

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we have geomancer its Conjurer

i think a combinations of the "meta" and the devs not wanting to be creative with the class system killed them in the long run .it could have let us to alot more.