Change to Ranged Physical Attackers (Bard, Machinist)

Can we receive a setting, specifically for Bard and Machinist but really it could be for any job, that allows us to completely disable auto-attack on an un-engaged target prior to initiating a manual ability?

It's annoying as hell to be using Tab to target and hit a random monster we didn't intend, or to accidentally hit the right mouse button when selecting a target, only to have auto-attack pull it immediately.

What does everyone else think? Am I the only one that finds this incredibly irritating relative to melee-range DPS or spellcasters?

Oh boy this is one of the major reason I stopped playing bard. And the tab target doesn't help one bit for that matter it always target monster from packs miles from you and there you go messing with your party by pulling additional pack...

Something could be useful.

I play with a game pad and has cerrainly been a few occasions where I'm setting the boss as focus target or something before the fight starts and accidently lob an arrow at it.

Target boss squae up x. And if you hold x slightly to long the menu disaapears and you auto attack

Oh God, please yes. Give us ranged dps the option to not auto attack something unintentionally. I know some people will say "just don't target the wrong thing then" but there've been times I was trying to target cycle to apply DoTs only to have the cycle move to the wrong thing. Or worse yet, with Dzian's example, I attempt to focus target a boss and a hair too long of a press causes an accidental pull.

I learned about ranged auto-attack issues in Syrcus Tower when I set up my target lock on Xande while everyone was still arriving....

...oops.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Something could be useful.

I play with a game pad and has cerrainly been a few occasions where I'm setting the boss as focus target or something before the fight starts and accidently lob an arrow at it.

Target boss squae up x. And if you hold x slightly to long the menu disaapears and you auto attack

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Yikes, I wasn't even aware that's how gamepad controls worked with auto-attack. That's even worse...

This would be incredibly useful. The amount of times I’ve accidentally pulled things by accident.... it happens less now, but it happened a lot when SB dropped because I was not used to actually having autos after HW. I wouldn’t be opposed to this.

It would be easier -in my mind- for them to just remove Bard & Machinists ability to auto-attack entirely and adjust their weaponskill/ability damage to make up for this.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

It would be easier -in my mind- for them to just remove Bard & Machinists ability to auto-attack entirely and adjust their weaponskill/ability damage to make up for this.

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This would be acceptable to me personally as well. So long as a solution (a) avoids weakening the jobs and (b) removes the possibility of accidentally auto-attacking un-engaged monsters, I'll be happy.

I haven’t played summoner in two years at least but I remember having issues with focus targeting and the summon wandering up to engage the target. Is this still a thing?

I remember turn 7 being rough as a bard because of the auto attacks. I’ve just learned to adjust but I wouldn’t mind something to disengage auto attacks but not get rid of them completely.

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Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

I haven’t played summoner in two years at least but I remember having issues with focus targeting and the summon wandering up to engage the target. Is this still a thing?

I remember turn 7 being rough as a bard because of the auto attacks. I’ve just learned to adjust but I wouldn’t mind something to disengage auto attacks but not get rid of them completely.

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I'm not sure on the Summoner question. If it applies there too, it should be resolved as well. I also agree that, given SE's history re: balance adjustments, it might be best to have an option blocking auto-attack from initiating combat (but otherwise remaining the same), as opposed to eliminating it for certain jobs and scaling ability usage accordingly. In theory the latter is perfectly possible, and would be an easy way of resolving the problem, but it's quite possible that SE wouldn't adjust skill damage properly.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Can we receive a setting, specifically for Bard and Machinist but really it could be for any job, that allows us to completely disable auto-attack on an un-engaged target prior to initiating a manual ability?

It's annoying as hell to be using Tab to target and hit a random monster we didn't intend, or to accidentally hit the right mouse button when selecting a target, only to have auto-attack pull it immediately.

What does everyone else think? Am I the only one that finds this incredibly irritating relative to melee-range DPS or spellcasters?

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I support this completely. I've only played brd and mch for a short time but I did encounter that kind of problem. Make it happen SE

Maybe just don't use the keybind you have set that triggers auto attack?

I mean, I get it on the tab targeting, that happens, but a lot of these examples sound like a simple left click instead of a right click would solve half your troubles.

But, I imagine most of you are using a controller where it's not quite as simple. Still, surely there's a way to highlight a target without selecting it. (in this context "highlight" refers to having "left clicked" them, while "selecting" refers to what right click does, or pressing the "confirm" button while target is highlighted)

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

But, I imagine most of you are using a controller where it's not quite as simple. Still, surely there's a way to highlight a target without selecting it. (in this context "highlight" refers to having "left clicked" them, while "selecting" refers to what right click does, or pressing the "confirm" button while target is highlighted)

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If you use a controller and play on PC, or have a Bluetooth mouse, you can use the mouse to select/focus target an enemy. This is what I do if I cannot back up far enough to not engage them. But if people don’t have/use a mouse, I don’t know of any simple way for them to do it on controller, since, if your controller is finicky, it can take the first click of you selecting the boss as a double and initiate your autos/engage them.

If they wanted to remove autos from BRD/MCH, that would be fine, but they would need to buff up the potencies of their weaponskills to compensate. I won’t take the removal if they won’t buff potencies, since that’s about a ~15% damage loss, if I remember correctly.

I've gotten pretty used to it by using escape and interact buttons in combination with tab, but I would welcome anything that could help, as long as it doesn't necessarily bring new problems. And something optional certainly would bring no such issues.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Maybe just don't use the keybind you have set that triggers auto attack?

I mean, I get it on the tab targeting, that happens, but a lot of these examples sound like a simple left click instead of a right click would solve half your troubles.

But, I imagine most of you are using a controller where it's not quite as simple. Still, surely there's a way to highlight a target without selecting it. (in this context "highlight" refers to having "left clicked" them, while "selecting" refers to what right click does, or pressing the "confirm" button while target is highlighted)

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Personally, I'm using a keyboard and mouse. Tab targeting is the primary problem, and mis-clicking on the mouse can be an occasional problem, albeit rarer (unless I'm playing while particularly tired).

The key thing to me, though, is that mistakes of this nature on literally any other job in the game pose little to no risk. If I'm playing White Mage (my main), I can tab around with abandon, I can bump the right mouse button, whatever - no worries. On Bard or Machinist, though, it's an insta-pull of whatever you're focused on. I think the mistake tolerance in this regard should be identical across all jobs.

I can't personally speak to the mechanics on a gamepad, but...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you use a controller and play on PC, or have a Bluetooth mouse, you can use the mouse to select/focus target an enemy. This is what I do if I cannot back up far enough to not engage them. But if people don’t have/use a mouse, I don’t know of any simple way for them to do it on controller, since, if your controller is finicky, it can take the first click of you selecting the boss as a double and initiate your autos/engage them.

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...it seems like controllers just really don't have a good workaround.

For controller, about setting Focus Target as well as any menu selection: Square (left action button) works exactly like X. It's not foolproof because by mashing the button you could just open the menu and select Attack at the top, but I don't know why you'd be mashing a button for Focus Target anyway. Also, I often use a shoulder button to target enemies regardless, even though I don't play Bard or Machinist. It just makes sense to me because targeting an enemy almost always means you're going to be attacking them, and shoulder buttons target enemies only while your cross hotbar is active.

However, I agree this is a problem because on controller you can only really "tab" target for targeting, and although the tab-targeting in this game is extremely good, there's definitely a decent risk of targeting an unengaged enemy. I don't know what the solution could be besides implementing an option to toggle off auto-attack the exact moment you switch targets. However, that means it'd be disabled when switching between engaged enemies too until you use a weaponskill. Then again, delaying one auto-attack is practically nothing, especially if you're switching targets that much. WoW and other MMOs have had this option nearly forever, but their GCD (or GCD-equivalent) is very fast, so it feels a little different.

Funny enough, for examples like all the casters, I'd honestly prefer having the option to enable auto-attack once we've starting hitting with spells. In solo content, it's honestly a bit dumb that we just let that damage go to waste. Negligible, maybe, but still damage.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

...it seems like controllers just really don't have a good workaround.

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To be fair, my controller is also about 3 years old and has been dropped a lot. :p So it’s probably more sensitive than most. I just try to use my mouse for targeting bosses.

I use controller and keyboard (PS4 player) and don't have problems with things like this. Must be a mouse thing.

This was the one thing I liked about Minuet/Barrel back in the HW era.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

I use controller and keyboard (PS4 player) and don't have problems with things like this. Must be a mouse thing.

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It’s a controller issue as well. If your controller thinks you clicked X twice, it initiates auto-attacks against the target.

Tbf, I wouldn't mind if auto-attacks were removed completely from ranged weapons. Always looks strange firing off another arrow within .2 seconds of your last, having never notched it, or for a second arrow to just go flying off instantly before or after the first, as if fired through you rather than by you. The portion siphoned towards white damage also reduces control, and as we have no necessary GCD clipping issues -- except to the same extent as any other job -- it has no actual benefits in watering down its losses (which it could only do to a pathetically mild degree anyways).

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

It would be easier -in my mind- for them to just remove Bard & Machinists ability to auto-attack entirely and adjust their weaponskill/ability damage to make up for this.

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You just made people who hate gunmage and bowmage weep with this suggestion.

EDIT: As far as my best workaround on controller, I have Focus Target on a macro bound to my right analog stick so I don't need to open the square menu at all. Doesn't stop that if my thumb twitches on the X button I pull, but it does mitigate some things.

EDIT2: Especially when the tank ready checks while I'm trying to pop food. Press X three times thinking I pressed twice--oops.

It's easy to say auto attacks don't actually offer anything and should be removed, but there would almost definitely be some unintended consequence of that. Not long ago someone brought up their difficulty in completing old leves that they outleveled, for completion's sake. Any leve that requires you weaken and /soothe almost requires auto attacks if you're obscenely over leveled for it.

How would you solve this problem, if you're trying to have auto attacks removed?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You just made people who hate gunmage and bowmage weep with this suggestion.

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What would removing auto-attacks have to do with gunmage or bowmage? You're still left with instant cast weaponskills, not cast bars.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

It's easy to say auto attacks don't actually offer anything and should be removed, but there would almost definitely be some unintended consequence of that. Not long ago someone brought up their difficulty in completing old leves that they outleveled, for completion's sake. Any leve that requires you weaken and /soothe almost requires auto attacks if you're obscenely over leveled for it.

How would you solve this problem, if you're trying to have auto attacks removed?

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By removing their separate functionality, not their existence. For instance, let's say you hold up to your weapon speed's AA time. Whenever you fire a weaponskill, the weapon damage charged thus far releases with the shot prior. Thus it'd take your weapon speed beyond your last weaponskill for auto-attacks to activate, so there's no issue tabbing between targets, but your AA damage remains just as it was when pacified or having to avoid weaponskills. Thus AA damage is siphoned into weaponskills only insofar as their control and timing.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What would removing auto-attacks have to do with gunmage or bowmage? You're still left with instant cast weapon skills, not cast bars.

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No real connection; just memories of the last time they took auto attacks away from range lol

I don't know on keyboard, but on gamepad you don't auto-attack when you're targeting stuff, even if you press X or A button to confirm the target. You must press X or A twice to start auto-attacking, or press an attacking skill to start the auto-attack.

Maybe there's something similar on keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

No real connection; just memories of the last time they took auto attacks away from range lol

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Oh, THAT trauma. Understandable. Understandable. (Even if I did, ultimately, liking some portion of Bow Mage gameplay in my Bard.)

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I really am 1 of 2 people that actually liked HW BRD. ;-; But maybe it’s because I never had issues with cast bars and learned to slidecast everywhere, which was really fun! X3

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I guess I'm the other one. I actually really liked the variance introduced by normally having only one oGCD gap, making (Feint and) Straighter Shot feel far more impactful, and giving some reason to play chicken with AoEs, which is generally fun as long as there's due reward.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

No real connection; just memories of the last time they took auto attacks away from range lol

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I really am 1 of 2 people that actually liked HW BRD. ;-; But maybe it’s because I never had issues with cast bars and learned to slidecast everywhere, which was really fun! X3

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

I don't know on keyboard, but on gamepad you don't auto-attack when you're targeting stuff, even if you press X or A button to confirm the target. You must press X or A twice to start auto-attacking, or press an attacking skill to start the auto-attack.

Maybe there's something similar on keyboard.

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For the keyboard / mouse control scheme, left-click selects a target and right-click both selects and auto-engages. Unfortunately, particularly when tired, hitting the right mouse button by accident is a real possibility, especially if one's hand is returning to the mouse after, say, typing in preparation for an S-rank (I've seen friends do this, and they always feel miserable afterward).

The Tab key can also be used to target monsters. However, whether it auto-attacks or not depends upon whether a character is currently engaged. If I'm standing around minding my own business, I can tab through everything, no problem. If, however, I'm engaged with one monster (say in a FATE), and then Tab over a random bystander critter on my way over to the next FATE enemy, there's a good chance I'll shoot it (and, if I'm in a group with a friend or two, likely link a few other monsters in the process given FFXIV's asinine monster-linking rules). This scenario occurs quite routinely in solo content, for me at least; FATEs, Levequests, whatever - anything where I'm only wanting to target certain monsters out of a group. It essentially eliminates my ability to use the Tab key, forcing me instead to manually select the monster with the mouse, which can get tricky if they're moving around (monster selection boxes aren't as well-designed as they could be).

Again, for any other job in the game besides BRD and MCH, there is no risk to these types of activities. Accidentally hit the right mouse button? Tab over the monster? Whatever - unless you're right next to it, auto-attack might "engage", but it won't do anything. That's the way it should be for everyone. Auto-attack simply shouldn't be capable of initiating combat itself with a previously un-engaged enemy.

Edit: One other complicating factor when using the mouse for targeting is that the mouse also controls my camera, and influences my movement. Occupying it briefly to select an enemy interrupts this, which can (and does) have an impact on AoE avoidance, for example. I'm not sure how typical keyboard / mouse users play, but I know for me, avoiding an AoE with the keyboard alone feels very unnatural; I typically use the mouse to ensure that I am running in an optimal direction and maintaining optimal camera positioning. Granted, this isn't terribly important in solo content like FATEs or Levequests, but it's ingrained in me from higher-tier content.