WHY is there a 2 chest , 1 chest, 0 Chest limit on savage?!

Ok, I'd first like to say, I played FFXI for years, switched to WoW for around 8 years, and am now playing FFXIV. I'm Fairly new, within the last 6 months.

I do not understand the reasoning behind making sigmascape savage, for example, cut down to 1 chest if someone who has already completed it joins a group to do it.

WHY NOT just make it so they can't receive any loot like normal mode? What is the point of this?

I would personally like to join some party finders to redo the content after completing it to brush up on the mechanics and what not. This makes it so basically it can only be done once per week. (before anyone says anything, yes, you can make a party just for funsies, but really how many people join those).

I really don't understand this. Just make it so if someone has completed it already, they just simply cannot receive any loot instead of screwing over the entire party if they join.

Would also like to mention, this would also be beneficial to other groups due to having people join their groups who already know the content. Which = a more active Party finder.

It's probably because SE doesn't want to encourage people to sell more runs and they also don't want people to gear that fast. Otherwise you could have 7 people selling 2 chest runs for endless amounts of people, and everyone being (theoretically) able to lot 2 chests from every single floor every single week.

I guess that's true. For the selling runs thing. It's still being done though, I can count at least 2 "Selling o5s-o8s runs, etc" party finders right now.
EDIT:: there is ways around it though instead of making it so ALL 8 people have to be fresh... even if they only allowed say 2 people who have already completed it, or even 4. If half the group completed it already, and it still offered 2 chests, that would still limit the selling of runs the same way.

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Originally Posted by s3riot

I guess that's true. For the selling runs thing. It's still being done though, I can count at least 2 "Selling o5s-o8s runs, etc" party finders right now.

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Yes, it's being done, but imagine if those people could keep selling 2 chest runs without any limits without needing characters who haven't cleared it for the week.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yes, it's being done, but imagine if those people could keep selling 2 chest runs without any limits without needing characters who haven't cleared it for the week.

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Yes, but like i put on my previous post, I made an edit. Even if they allowed 4 fresh 4 non-fresh with 2 chests, it would still do the same thing. No one is going to buy a run with only 4 players selling it.

You don't adjust savage because of people selling it.
They do what they, what they want, and interested people as well.

People who want to clear on their own will still do, such as those who prefer paying.
Yes they would do it more and so what ? Interested people to buy savage won't suddently increase by 50% if they changed that.

Besides, you can't just lock this sytem because of only few who sell the content while there are plenty of players who'd happily join savage group to help them or even train more.
Also, there are several new players who don't even really know about that and screw one chest to other people while that's not what they wished.

They don't even have to lock it completely. I mean, if they really want to prevent things like selling or people being able to have free loot for themselves, they could at least let 1 or 2 people joining.

1-2 already cleared = 2 chest
2-6 = 1 chest
7-8 = 0.

This system is stupid. It prevents people who want to do content they like to either match with people in the same situation as them, or helping their friend or random group.
It doesn't work well on the community scenario, especialy for "gear" that will be oudated and transformed into gc seals or for glamour anyway few month after.

If savage gear would still be valuable I would understand this choice. But it's not.
And people who definitly need to get gear fast already have found a way to do it.
Besides, you still have tomestone and crafted gear if that's what you need to clear savage content so...

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

You don't adjust savage because of people selling it.
They do what they, what they want, and interested people as well.

People who want to clear on their own will still do, such as those who prefer paying.
Yes they would do it more and so what ? Interested people to buy savage won't suddently increase by 50% if they changed that.

This system is stupid. It prevents people who want to do content they like to either match with people in the same situation as them, or helping their friend or random group.

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Agreed. The current system makes absolutely no sense. Like you said, if they just allowed even 2 people to join a group who have already completed it, I would be happy. Honestly, not sure who at SE came up with this idea but its kinda ridiculous.

I totally know how it feels.

I have my own static outside of my fc, we go in raid regulary.
My FC does some savage content more casually when they can, so for training it's okay, but if we're about to clear, they get one chest away because of me (and that's suck because since they do less savage than me, they need the gear more than I do).
And sometimes, I even have good in game friends who ask for my help, but always the same "meh, sorry, the party wants 2 chest".

There are so many times I could have helped people I personnaly know but couldn't because of that system.
For my FC, I have an alt character (but no even well geared for the current patch unfortunately).

Anyways, at least the 1-2 people clear not screwing up the chest would at least be nice for situation like this.

It arbitrary only allow you to do it once per week for ONLY one group.
We can't blame people for wanting to get their chest since it's weekly...
This is just a bad choice for the raid community.

this loot system that *kupo*s you over unless you intend to only ever raid once in a week with a static is one of the many reasons why I'm not interested in raiding

they need to drag it out as long as possible until the next patch and then they unlock it for everyone. otherwise everyone just gets carried and gets all their gear right away and then everyone unsubs until the next major raid tier.

the "gear progression needs to be walled trough this or people will poopsock" argument doesn't really make much sense though. I mean people that already cleared or skipped a fight can no longer roll on the loot anyway, right? So it will still take you multiple weeks to get a full set even if you happen to get ultra lucky with drops on every fight

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

this loot system that *kupo*s you over unless you intend to only ever raid once in a week with a static is one of the many reasons why I'm not interested in raiding

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I raid 3 times a week (and join PUG parties even more than that) so I don't know what you are saying about raiding once per week. Raid is about progression primarily, at which point the loot is an end goal. The ONLY scenario that this screws with is the one that the OP describes, about going backwards for practice rather than forward.

Why aren't you practising the current fight that you are on? Why aren't you joining practice parties that don't mind having one chest (because they aren't clearing anyway)? That is how raid is intended, and having the current loot system helps far more than it hinders.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

the "gear progression needs to be walled trough this or people will poopsock" argument doesn't really make much sense though. I mean people that already cleared or skipped a fight can no longer roll on the loot anyway, right? So it will still take you multiple weeks to get a full set even if you happen to get ultra lucky with drops on every fight

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Thats not the primary argument though, the primary argument is that 7 people who have cleared and got loot will help one person who hasn't, either as a sold run or for easy loot (i.e 100% chance at two chests worth of loot), something which the current system is in place to counter.

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Originally Posted by s3riot

Agreed. The current system makes absolutely no sense. Like you said, if they just allowed even 2 people to join a group who have already completed it, I would be happy. Honestly, not sure who at SE came up with this idea but its kinda ridiculous.

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It goes a back a few years when duties were locked and could only be completed once per week period. You could not go back in once you completed the duty for the week. They made the change mainly because a lot of people complained they couldn't help their friends after finishing for the week. It never effected the "sellers" market.

It's dumb, no defending it will make it sound justifiable. It's another one of those convoluted SE ideas to drag out the loot distribution. They should use something similar to the 24-Man raid system for weekly loot. Open chests and be eligible for 1 piece of loot per week, per encounter. So a possibility of 4 rewards a week from chests.

It's so stupid to punish people for wanting to repeat content.

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Originally Posted by Taika

It's probably because SE doesn't want to encourage people to sell more runs and they also don't want people to gear that fast. Otherwise you could have 7 people selling 2 chest runs for endless amounts of people, and everyone being (theoretically) able to lot 2 chests from every single floor every single week.

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More like the last part, where they don't want people to gear up too fast. And hey evy! thanks for co-tanking with me in byakko :)

If you allowed full loot every run regardless of the players, then the optimal thing would be to not run with a full 8 man.

I think we can all agree that that's not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

1-2 already cleared = 2 chest
2-6 = 1 chest
7-8 = 0.

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Why they won't adjust loot restrictions to something like this I have no idea. Even just opening up two coffers if only one or two people have cleared would make things significantly better. I can't count the number of times I've wanted to help friends yet unless I have a separate character geared for Savage, I screw them out of loot by doing so.

It's a rough system sure, but it's just designed to be a time sink, already most hardcore raiders clear the tier before the first week ends get their loot the speed runs done then unsub til the next one its just designed like this to keep people playing as long into the patch as they possibly can. If they didn't slow down getting loot like this most of the serious raiders would play less than a week per patch, the way this game works, and how quickly gear goes obsolete most people wouldnt even stick around if it weren't from the time sinks and weekly lockouts.

They should at least give some form of reward for people who want to do the fight more than once. It's just one bad game design over another. For example, you can't suggest to increase the number of tomes you get, because that would mean less people doing roulettes, which would increase queue times.

But something needs to be done. They should be ashamed of themselves at the current situation, where people can pretty much only raid once a week, unless they want to spend HOURS (yes, hours) on the party finder for a 0 chest, "just for fun" party.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It goes a back a few years when duties were locked and could only be completed once per week period. You could not go back in once you completed the duty for the week. They made the change mainly because a lot of people complained they couldn't help their friends after finishing for the week. It never effected the "sellers" market.

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This. People asked for the current system back when coil 100% locked you out of the fight once you had done it, or gone further than anyone in the party. You had trolls occasionally who would advertise for T1 or w/e, then take you immediately into T5, locking you out of a weeks worth of clears.

(they were not accessed by DF at the time, so you didn't know what you were going into)

The fewer chest thing exists to dissuade JP and world firsters from swapping in alts to get more gear

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Originally Posted by Crescents

It's a rough system sure, but it's just designed to be a time sink, already most hardcore raiders clear the tier before the first week ends get their loot the speed runs done then unsub til the next one its just designed like this to keep people playing as long into the patch as they possibly can. If they didn't slow down getting loot like this most of the serious raiders would play less than a week per patch, the way this game works, and how quickly gear goes obsolete most people wouldnt even stick around if it weren't from the time sinks and weekly lockouts.

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Changing the system to where groups can have one or two people who have previously cleared help doesn't speed up loot. Those groups simply find someone in PF eventually. All the current system does is disable friends to help one another if they happen to be apart of different statics. This is especially given how BiS requires tomestone gear, which cannot be sped up in any manner. With the addition of Ultimate, many raiders stay subbed since they want multiple jobs geared for prog.

The system is designed and paced for each player to get 1/4th of a Chest per week (plus a token for each turn.)

You don't see the problem in giving statics 8x more loot per week (two chests each), by removing the restriction?


Crafted gear, Omega Normal gear, and Mendacity gear would become completely pointless as it'll just be replaced in the "all-you-can-gear buffet" almost instantly. We are talking serious progression imbalance here. Grossly over-gearing each Savage encounter with two weeks worth of drops. Laughable enrage timers. Savage raiding has already been extremely toned down ever since A8S face stomped progression parties; this would be such overkill. I don't see what the big deal is about the current system when every player gets one Token drop a week no matter how many people have cleared.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Changing the system to where groups can have one or two people who have previously cleared help doesn't speed up loot. Those groups simply find someone in PF eventually. All the current system does is disable friends to help one another if they happen to be apart of different statics. This is especially given how BiS requires tomestone gear, which cannot be sped up in any manner. With the addition of Ultimate, many raiders stay subbed since they want multiple jobs geared for prog.

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4 parties of 8 can get a maximum of 8 chests now. Allowing up to 2 clears would allow that same number of players to split into 1 party of 8 and 4 parties of 6, making the maximum 10 chests. Those groups with 6 players have 2 chests split among 6 instead of 8.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

4 parties of 8 can get a maximum of 8 chests now. Allowing up to 2 clears would allow that same number of players to split into 1 party of 8 and 4 parties of 6, making the maximum 10 chests. Those groups with 6 players have 2 chests split among 6 instead of 8.

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That degree of coordination is so minuscule, it wouldn't have any noteworthy impact. We're talking 32 players all getting together just to rotate alts on a chance something drops for the jobs they're interested in. Keep in mind, no one else can roll and the single run restriction remains. Using myself as an example, if Casting accessories dropped, well, rip me. I don't play Casters, thus the drop is completely useless. I do get a page but you get those regardless. It's far more advantageous for a hardcore static to simply run 8 alts as whatever drops will have a use to someone.

I'm surprised the OP has such a huge issue with this when coming from WoW of all places. Weren't there weekly lockouts that didn't matter if you got loot or not, and it might not even be for your character?

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Originally Posted by s3riot

I guess that's true. For the selling runs thing. It's still being done though, I can count at least 2 "Selling o5s-o8s runs, etc" party finders right now.
If half the group completed it already, and it still offered 2 chests, that would still limit the selling of runs the same way.

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Many people have alt characters they use for raiding. People selling runs are ALWAYS going to have something in place to do something like this. What's to stop a raid selling group from having a bunch of alts where they can push one person into a single raid 2+ times to get that person 4+ things of loot. If anything what you're suggesting will just make the raid sellers more damn annoying.

And the only issue I have with the raid sellers are the cross server ones, you know the ones that 'make you talk on discord' because they like to tell you to buy gil from RMTs to pay them, or to pay with cash over paypal.

After I learned the content in remaining chest, I think it's not that bad.

For first floor, yeah you lose one of two items.
But for second floor onward,
First chest : gear. <-- this is the chest you gonna lose if 1-4 cleared join.
Second chest : gear + two upgrade materials.
So with one chest penalty, you still have 3 of 4 items remain.

I think, they need a better way to do this, indeed.

and how would they make it better without giving out gear like candy too fast? you people are just too impatient...

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Originally Posted by LunaChild

After I learned the content in remaining chest, I think it's not that bad.

For first floor, yeah you lose one of two items.
But for second floor onward,
First chest : gear. <-- this is the chest you gonna lose if 1-4 cleared join.
Second chest : gear + two upgrade materials.
So with one chest penalty, you still have 3 of 4 items remain.

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Unless they changed it with Sigmascape, the chest you get is random.

My static has had to 1-chest v4s (before 4.2) twice, once getting the chest containing the chestpiece, and once getting the chest containing the weapon/weapon coffer/mount.

Only way remove this would be remove shared loot and improve token system or make everybody have personal loot.

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Originally Posted by s3riot

I do not understand the reasoning behind making sigmascape savage, for example, cut down to 1 chest if someone who has already completed it joins a group to do it.

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The answer is easy. Before we got this system, a player who has finished a turn could not enter this turn again before the next reset. He was completely locked out to help others.

Lowering the number of chests is the price to get help by someone who have already done it within the ID.

If you want 2 chests you have to be a full party without someone who have cleared it, like in good old days.

But there are many other out there, especially in the last days before reset, who wants to get it done with less than 2 chest instead of loosing an entire week. And thats the reason this system got changed to what we have now.

There is literally nothing stopping you from creating a pf so you can rerun for better play performance... you don't need the chest bonus if you're just mastering a fight....

They could use what is used in the 24 man but I guess they want to avoid alt runs

The part that doesnt make any sense is cutting off loot from previous floors for finishing a high floor. What difference does it make if I wanna clear O8S first to try for the diamond weapon then go back to the others?

The title of this thread made me feel like I was reading a Dr. Seuss book. XD

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

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Agreed with a less severe restriction, so that one or two week killers can come and help friends. It's frustrating to the point that I'm putting up a reroll (!) to be able to do whatever I want in Savage on my main and still have the option to go help. Frustrating as hell.

However to OP, limit has to exist to avoid that, for instance, 7 guys go in there with someone who hasn't killed, and that guy gets all full items of the chest. Since you don't need every single piece of Savage for a BiS but rather a mix with memos, it wouldn't be long to get all you want and I'm sure there would be cheasing so that week 3 after patch everyone with O8 kill would be full BiS. Knowing next gear cap is in 7-8 months...

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Originally Posted by TheDraco4011

The part that doesnt make any sense is cutting off loot from previous floors for finishing a high floor. What difference does it make if I wanna clear O8S first to try for the diamond weapon then go back to the others?

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It is intended to be done in the correct order ever new week until the restriction get lifted.

Before Raidfinder you had to go to a NPC at the entrance and had to start with the first, than the second and so on.

Not that much different now. When you start a new week, you can only select the first floor for queue. The others have a lock sign.

And afterwards the Raidfinder will not let you queue up again for a floor you have done when you select "clear" in the window and it will also end with an error message when another is queuing up with someone in the party who have cleared while "clear" is selected. People who have cleared can only enter when "practise" is selected.

Could they perhaps set it up so if you've cleared for the week, you're locked out of any loot that drops (and make it so once you leave the instance, then you get the book, which counts towards the 1 item per week restriction, could even make it so if you get loot, you don't get the book)? Could that help make a fair compromise for this? Run sellers will ALWAYS find a way. You could make it so that you're locked out of the instance completely once you beat it (or enter a higher floor), based off your entire service account and any alternate service accounts that use ANY identical information, with your fully identifiable and verifiable information (address, bank sort code, account number, etc), and the run-sellers would still find a way. But at the same time I as a friend punish either my friend or my static for wanting to help somebody?

I dunno, I just feel like something's gotta give here.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Could they perhaps set it up so if you've cleared for the week, you're locked out of any loot that drops (and make it so once you leave the instance, then you get the book, which counts towards the 1 item per week restriction, could even make it so if you get loot, you don't get the book)? Could that help make a fair compromise for this?

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That doesnt seem to be a fair compromise to me though - even if the loot from the chests is random, that would basically mean you could run the content with 7 people who cleared it (and got their loot) and have the last person just get everything with no competition (and an overall higher output of highlevel gear than intended).

What we are having right now is the compromise. You're allowed to go back (you werent in Coil), but it will give your party the penatly. Someone has been giving here and its the dev-team (in a sense). Now people are asking to be able to take more and more...

I can agree on having the penalty less harsh - in the way that one person joining wont have any effect on the loot and so on. But making it so, that it doesnt matter at all - while it already matters less (you still get your token after all) - doesnt seem "right" to me. Not so much because of run-selling and rather because of this idea that this content is supposed to be done by a full group in the first place - instead of "doesnt matter who we're grabbing".
I'm sorry that I dont have a real fleshed out argument right now at hand, but let me try to turn this around by saying: The two chests you're getting are your reward for doing it as a static. Instead of seeing less chests as a penalty, look at the chests as the reward for the effort of having a static. Dont want to put in this effort? Get your token and be happy with it!
(As I said - a less harsh penalty would be fine in my book - and if only to account for any real life stuff that can happen and render someone unable to attend their raid-times)