Please stop with the "no duplicates" and pigeon-holing our DPS into tiny windows

This is getting to be a really disturbing trend that I think the developers don't really see, because they're so far buried in the minutiae of balancing jobs and creating new content.

But it is something that has bothered me for awhile and it's only getting worse.

1) The "no duplicates" job nonsense

You get a marginally faster limit break bar fill if each class is unique. While I understand this was designed to encourage greater class variety, it's also causing a lot of exclusion of popular classes. It discourages people from playing the class they are most proficient at or simply enjoy playing the most. It is becoming endemic in the party finder.

Yes, pre-made groups don't have this but overall I think it discourages the social/collaboration part of the MMO outside of one's own FC or friends list.

2) Pigeon-holing our DPS into tiny windows

This is getting borderline ridiculous on some classes - machinist and warrior in particular but I'm sure there are others. Please look at other ways to make each class powerful in its own right rather than "let's make sure eeeeverything lines up within a millisecond in order to do the most DPS we can within 3 seconds!"

Does anyone here feel like that's fun? Challenging, for sure, but not fun.

By the same token, machinist and monk I feel are far too rigid in their DPS demands. Monk just seems like way too much concentration goes into timing everything precisely so that you end up with "squeeze all your DPS into this tiny window but only from this angle!

I feel like they really need to go back to the drawing board on those two classes.
Your thoughts?

"No duplicates" is the only reason we aren't raiding with "7 Tanks and 1 Healer." I think exclusion of popular classes would be FAR greater if duplicates were allowed. I know for a fact my PLD would have never finished AS3 and AS4 if "Warrior ONLY" comps were allowed.

1:- I agree with this. namely because the developers repeatedly proclaim a play whatever job you want and everything is perfectly balanced game environment.

If that's the case then it really shouldn't matter at all if for example 3 of your dps want to be monks or both your tanks want to be warriors.. players should be allowed to play whatever they want without penalties... which is what the devs often proclaim.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

While I understand this was designed to encourage greater class variety, it's also causing a lot of exclusion of popular classes.

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How is it causing a lot of exclusion of popular classes? No duplicate jobs really only means no DUPLICATE jobs. Unless you're mistaking it for those PFs that doesn't allow certain classes to enter (plenty of SAM threads about it), the issue is not with "no duplicates job" nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

It discourages people from playing the class they are most proficient at or simply enjoy playing the most.

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Either look for another PF or start your own. It's been this way ever since the LB update.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

2) Pigeon-holing our DPS into tiny windows

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This is not a new thing. Classes have burst windows ever since ARR with the exception of Paladins and healers (except WHM).

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

machinist and monk I feel are far too rigid in their DPS demands.

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So are other DPS classes. Can't have it too easy where you can just smash buttons and do amazing DPS.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Monk just seems like way too much concentration goes into timing everything precisely so that you end up with "squeeze all your DPS into this tiny window but only from this angle!

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Again, every class have burst windows.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I feel like they really need to go back to the drawing board on those two classes.

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Yes but for a different reason.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

You get a marginally faster limit break bar fill if each class is unique.

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Actually, you get a noticeably faster limit break. I ran in a Byakko EX party with double SAM and we weren't even close to LB3 at the point where you'd normally have it. In O7S, you'll flat out lose a second LB2, assuming you melee LB The Guardian. Can Byakko be done normally? Sure. But why? There's no benefit to the group and only a hindrance.

If you want to do stuff with your FC, go ahead. Party Finder is intended for random people, thus the PF leader determines how they want to do things. If you dislike it, make a party yourself.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

I think exclusion of popular classes would be FAR greater if duplicates were allowed.

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It would - The duplicate penalty serves as a buffer for imbalances. In order for stacking jobs to be worthwhile, the benefit of stacking (i.e. job imbalance) needs to compensate for and outweigh the penalty for it. The greater the penalty, the greater the imbalance needs to be for stacking to be ideal. Likewise, the smaller it is, the lower the imbalance needs to be for stacking to be ideal.

At least in pugs, removing it might become a pwetty big issue.

Having duplicate jobs is a significant decrease to LB charge rate. If anything, that penalty helps to promote class diversity within a group. Now if you’re being left out because your job of choice is not meta or whatever...that’s different. Best solution to that is to form your own group.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

"No duplicates" is the only reason we aren't raiding with "7 Tanks and 1 Healer." I think exclusion of popular classes would be FAR greater if duplicates were allowed. I know for a fact my PLD would have never finished AS3 and AS4 if "Warrior ONLY" comps were allowed.

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Removing or -- a much more likely change -- mitigating the penalty for duplicate classes wouldn't need to also stand without a replacing penalty for an excess of role. It could simply be another mode of mild lenience for content short of the most difficult currently available. Once you have 2 melee DPS, duplicates within a 3rd or 4th melee DPS hurt; once you have 2 tanks, duplicates hurt; etc., etc.

Maybe the first duplication doesn't hurt LB gains. Maybe the penalty is reduced on the first, by less on the second, and felt fully by the third. Whatever. But if a fight makes such a LB-dependent strat so useful, it would really help if players could play what they want or have when at least filling out all the appropriate roles (melee, ranged, healer, tank), either by not having such a severe penalty, or by ensuring that even if penalized to a point, the LB generation is still sufficient.

I'd rather see the penalty stay as is for Savage, but I wouldn't mind seeing it reduced to half at most for content less than that. Ofc, it would also help if in such content LB gauge was built more by damage dealt and less by time spent so that no group would also be fighting against "overclocking" a given phase requiring an LB3 (or for which the LB3 is optimal to the point of being nearly required).

I'm on board with a few others here: I feel like getting rid of "No Duplicates" and the bonus it gives to filling the LB meter would open the door to much more exclusion, a la the "7 WAR and 1 healer" comp. I don't mean to say that if your group wants both of it's tanks to be WAR and have dupes on a DPS, then that should be the end of the world, but I think the issue would lie in parties with 7 of the same class becoming the ideal comp, which the limit break rate being fueled by party diversity discourages.

The LB penalty for doubling up on the same jobs is far more than marginal, considering even one double job in Byakko Ex means you won't have tank LB3 for the second tiger (and people don't want to do the mechanic properly so, there's that). Tank LB2 isn't enough even when the tiger is at 50%. In Savage weeklies, people don't allow doubling up on DPS roles to avoid competition for loot--e.g., they say BRD or MCH, instead of allowing both, because they have to compete for gear. PF is made with the intention that party leaders can set whatever preferences they want for their party. You can't punish a person for saying "I don't want to double up on jobs, because we will get LBs faster" or "I don't want to allow multiple casters because they will all be fighting over caster pieces if they drop, and we're in a lockout right now". If you don't like the rules set by the PF leaders, make your own with no such rules.

This is a lot of hot air about an non issue.

Personally I like the 'no dupes' stuff for parties. Means when a weapon drops in Byakko/other things that people can get their weapon without having to outroll someone else. I've lost things multiple times due to that.

Plus I like not having a second paladin in groups I'm in, that way buffs don't overlap, same with scholars and the like.

I, personally, am not having a problem with it, even though I main samurai. I made this thread not to complain, but to bring up discussion on what I think is a valid point that this direction is leading to greater and greater marginalization of classes.

For Byakko, the tank limit break to bypass the tiger was not intended, and yet the strategy is the de-facto way of clearing it now. It's "skip soar" all over again. In all honesty though doing it the "original" way is just a pain. I like that the players were inventive enough to try a strategy that the dev team did not anticipate :)

RE: the 7 tanks, 1 healer - classes should still be divided according to requirements as they are now. It's just that if two people want to play warriors or ninjas or what have you, it shouldn't make THAT much of a difference.

I get that this isn't a fighting game where smashing buttons leads to amazing results. But when you look at it, putting everything inside of such a small window of potential is just smashing buttons with a glossy coat of paint over it. Rotations and openers are all well and good, but I still think just because "other games do it too" shouldn't be a reason for FFXIV to follow suit.

I like the direction the devs took at the beginning of Stormblood to make each class unique, but some, I think are tied a bit too vigorously to those DPS windows -- I feel it's too "all or nothing" in some cases, and people concentrate more on lining everything up precisely rather than the mechanics and the "choreographed dance" of that particular fight.

Hopefully that helps clarify a bit more what my intention was with this thread.

Actually, you won't even get close to lb3 when you need it if you have duplicates. Stop spreading false information.

Relax, Byakko EX is the exception, not the rule. As soon as his fight isn't relevant anymore (which won't take long in a game like this) you won't be seeing the whole "no duplicates" thing anymore until the next time they make a fight that allows a pivotal tank LB3 (or healer LB3 in the case of a fight like A4S, and it's obviously been a long time since that was a relevant fight) to allow total bypassing of a mechanic.

As for the other thing, if you don't like the super precise wtfomg dps classes, don't play them. Problem=solved. Some jobs are inherently more complex than others. This is a good thing because otherwise they would all be carbon copies of each other.

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For Byakko, the tank limit break to bypass the tiger was not intended,

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If it was unintended, they would have made the tiger do enough damage for an instant wipe (regardless of tank LB) if it was ignored. They have done this sort of "do the mechanic or die" thing in countless other fights, as well as any fight for which there is an enrage timer. It's a tactic that the devs are no strangers to. They willfully chose not to do that here. I'm pretty sure there is a reason for that.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If it was unintended, they would have made the tiger do enough damage for an instant wipe (regardless of tank LB) if it was ignored. They have done this sort of "do the mechanic or die" thing in countless other fights, as well as any fight for which there is an enrage timer. It's a tactic that the devs are no strangers to. They willfully chose not to do that here. I'm pretty sure there is a reason for that.

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No, the developers outright stated in the last Live Letter that the tank LB3 strat in Byakko Ex was not how they intended the fight to be done. They intended people to kill the second tiger just as they do the first one. The only reason I can think of that they didn’t make it an instant wipe through tank LB3 would be because people would start crying for the fight to be nerfed, and the developers in the past have shown annoyance at the constant cries for nerfs (this was said sometime around Weeping City/Final Steps of Faith).

Make your own party if you want duplicate jobs.

91 runs of byakko to get my dog - there is a significant lb3 difference with dupes and no dupes, and if you're in parties going for 5+ clears at a time, those extra minutes build up.

Is it possible to kill the 2nd tiger ye olde way? Yes, and if you are fine with no lb3, create a party that doesn't exclude dupes.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If it was unintended, they would have made the tiger do enough damage for an instant wipe (regardless of tank LB) if it was ignored. They have done this sort of "do the mechanic or die" thing in countless other fights, as well as any fight for which there is an enrage timer. It's a tactic that the devs are no strangers to. They willfully chose not to do that here. I'm pretty sure there is a reason for that.

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They stated in the live letter that they hadnt taken the tank lb into consideration.So it was actual an error on their side.Probably they never thought to test it and as such it wasnt programmed in to ignore tank lb.
They should have fixed it with an emergency maintenance i guess.And after it being live like that for a week they couldnt really change it in the patch as people who hadnt cleared it yet would have claimed it was unfair because of the people who already got their clear.

Most players will take the 'easiest' route and will readily skip mechanics rather than learn how to handle a fight as a whole. It happened with Zurvan (EX) and it's happening with Byakko (EX). I can't really blame players for taking that route but I do think it is a real shame and that the developers should have made adjustments to the fight once the tricks were discovered. In the case of Byakko (EX) there's a real risk of hostility if there's more than one of the same job hoping to compete for a spot.

It's also very interesting that so many of these groups cannot handle the fight as intended.

I think some of the byako EX hostility is towards melee dps because of the bubble phases because a lot of melee will mess up not to mention even with True North and PB monk isnt likely to have optimal dps in that phase.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Most players will take the 'easiest' route and will readily skip mechanics rather than learn how to handle a fight as a whole. It happened with Zurvan (EX) and it's happening with Byakko (EX). I can't really blame players for taking that route but I do think it is a real shame and that the developers should have made adjustments to the fight once the tricks were discovered. In the case of Byakko (EX) there's a real risk of hostility if there's more than one of the same job hoping to compete for a spot.

It's also very interesting that so many of these groups cannot handle the fight as intended.

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if it's more efficient and time saving, why wouldn't you do it? You can run trials at min-iLvl to "handle the fight as a whole" but how many people are going to do that? And using the tank LB3 =/= "cannot handle the fight as intended", lol. If you're going to farm something, you're going to naturally find the quickest way to do something.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

if it's more efficient and time saving, why wouldn't you do it? You can run trials at min-iLvl to "handle the fight as a whole" but how many people are going to do that? And using the tank LB3 =/= "cannot handle the fight as intended", lol. If you're going to farm something, you're going to naturally find the quickest way to do something.

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It's just a weird approach for the developers to let slide when they have taken steps to make it more difficult to speed run dungeons and have prevented anyone from skipping cutscenes in the MSQ roulette dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's just a weird approach for the developers to let slide when they have taken steps to make it more difficult to speed run dungeons and have prevented anyone from skipping cutscenes in the MSQ roulette dungeon.

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they said in the live letter it was unexpected, (unless im getting it mixed up with the Ghost vs WAR strat in O5S) so they may do something about it in the future, but I don't see any reason why. It's an honest slip up by them, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

"No duplicates" is the only reason we aren't raiding with "7 Tanks and 1 Healer." I think exclusion of popular classes would be FAR greater if duplicates were allowed. I know for a fact my PLD would have never finished AS3 and AS4 if "Warrior ONLY" comps were allowed.

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Already achieved 8 tank raids, unsynced, no echo in the past so..

Most content isnt hurt by duplicates, so people sometimes worry about it far too much.
(Or they like to cherry pick the few fights were it does make a big enough difference)

The LB penalty was to prevent the same problem that hurts most MMOs.
The MMo devs make bosses who spam unavoidable melee range AoEs, and so everyone stacks ranged DPS.
And they refuse to allow anyone else.
Then the devs nerf ranged DPS< since they can move and shoot.

Everyone switches to Casters, since they still do good dmg, and are ranged.

Then the devs take a year or longer, to decide how to deal with it.
In this case, They decided on the LB punishment for 2.0
By now, there's little room to be stacking DPS, since a lot of their utility buffs cant be stacked, unless its with a different job (and sometimes that doesnt work, like SCH/AST shields.)
But yeah, its there to prevent people saying something like, NIN only, no other DPS allowed for all 4 DPS spots!

Also, the Devs did already do something abotu this, and thats Raid Finder.
you can have 4 of the same DPS, 2 of the same tank, and 2 of the same healer, and it wont affect the LB, since you're not a premade.
You can literally have 7 people in PF, then pug the 8th person in raid finder, and have no LB penalty.

Too bad no one uses the raid finder anymore... (was great, would get all my weapons from EXs real quick, and my savage clears easier than PF groups)

(SIDE NOTE: You can reach LB3 with 1 dupe in the PT for byakko, IF you have everyone pop sprint at the start of the fight, and any time they dont need it, dont have anyone die, and when the 2nd tiger appears, you should only need half a bar or less. Then have 1 DPS hit the tiger, and pretty much each hit is like 10% of the bar filling up or something nearly equally crazy. Problem is, people dont like to stay alive or pop sprint at the start.)

I understand your grief OP but all of this is just solved by making your own PF with "duplicates" allowed. Maybe you don't want to bother with that or it seems like too much of a drag to start your own when there's already 5-6 ex/savage parties in PF but really, that's all you need to do.


Now if you were to tell me that every time you start your own PF, you have people in your party telling you or trying to coerce you into having non-duplicates, it might add weight your argument.

Party buffs aligns themselves if you just press them as soon as they light up. Also bringing duplicate classes will result in lower raid dps in general most of the time outside of slower lb gauge build up and this is only enforced by people doing high end content. It's a perfectly fine and good mentality to have for tackling the relevant hardest content in the game and if you don't like it you can either start becoming proficient in other jobs instead of telling other people how they should make their party.

Without LB penalty, you'll just get another kind of exclusion...the good ol' "if you are not this <insert flavor of the month dps>, don't join".

I want to play anything! = homogenization
I want classes to be unique! = anti-homogenization

Gonna need ya to make up your mind

Throughout the years I've learned that sometimes you really can't win with this game on certain issues.

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

I want to play anything! = homogenization
I want classes to be unique! = anti-homogenization

Gonna need ya to make up your mind

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Contribution to party can be homogonous, while offering a different playstyle and aesthetic.
A SAM should offer the same function in the party as a MNK, but they should play differently.
(and sometimes a "party trick", something not important to winning a fight, such as brds playing songs)

I'm wishing they'd just axe the resistance debuffs at this point, because being punished for not having a DRG around when you're playing BRD/MCH is frustrating.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I understand your grief OP but all of this is just solved by making your own PF with "duplicates" allowed. Maybe you don't want to bother with that or it seems like too much of a drag to start your own when there's already 5-6 ex/savage parties in PF but really, that's all you need to do.

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As stated by several others it's not that simple because you get penalties for stacking jobs. Which you really shouldn't.

Groups that run duplicate jobs already get punished with loot and stuff. If your savage party has 4 summoned as dps and maiming gear drops your busted for example.

Shouldn't be gimped by composition penalties as well.

To be honest removing the composition penalty might actually get more people raiding. In my case I know a few people that would like to do savage butbee don't because we can't play our jobs together...

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No, the developers outright stated in the last Live Letter that the tank LB3 strat in Byakko Ex was not how they intended the fight to be done. They intended people to kill the second tiger just as they do the first one. The only reason I can think of that they didn’t make it an instant wipe through tank LB3 would be because people would start crying for the fight to be nerfed, and the developers in the past have shown annoyance at the constant cries for nerfs (this was said sometime around Weeping City/Final Steps of Faith).

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I know what they said. My stance on it is still the same though. They wouldn't have just made it "do low enough damage to be survivable with tank LB3" when the game is no stranger whatsoever to attacks that just wipe the party outright if you don't do a mechanic as intended, no ifs ands or buts.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I know what they said. My stance on it is still the same though. They wouldn't have just made it "do low enough damage to be survivable with tank LB3" when the game is no stranger whatsoever to attacks that just wipe the party outright if you don't do a mechanic as intended, no ifs ands or buts.

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So, you’re basically saying that Yoshida lied to everyone when he said that they never intended for Byakko Ex to be cheesed a la tank LB3? Because I doubt that. There’s no reason for them to lie about something like that, for one. For another, they tend to get mad when people don’t do the content as they designed for it to be done.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I know what they said. My stance on it is still the same though. They wouldn't have just made it "do low enough damage to be survivable with tank LB3" when the game is no stranger whatsoever to attacks that just wipe the party outright if you don't do a mechanic as intended, no ifs ands or buts.

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Your stance makes no sense. What benefit do they have to essentially lie and claim they never intended parties to rely on tank LB3 to cheese the mechanic if they actually expected people would? Tank LB3 simply gives 80% mitigation party wide, which omits virtually all of Hakutei's damage as it's entirely based on percentage.

I kinda wish SE would just give us mini limit breaks, or something like a 2 hour/1 hour, or just fix the party limit break to work the same with or without dupes.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So, you’re basically saying that Yoshida lied to everyone when he said that they never intended for Byakko Ex to be cheesed a la tank LB3? Because I doubt that. There’s no reason for them to lie about something like that, for one. For another, they tend to get mad when people don’t do the content as they designed for it to be done.

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While certainly not a lie per se, it would seem to be a huge oversight for the ability to survive the AoE via LB3 to not have been intended, even if its conventional use wasn't. If 20% of the damage is easily survivable with few vulnerability stacks, why wouldn't LB3 be used in that way? They could have manipulated its suppression curve from Hakutei's %HP. They could have classified it as "true" (nonmitigateable) damage. And yet they did none of those things. It may not have been intended, but it's harder for me to imagine that they honestly thought they hadn't allowed for it to happen than for me to believe that their statement coming off, or being perceived, a bit stronger than... intended. Sure, it wasn't expected that people would do this, but not because it was considered impossible, but simply of too little benefit compared to an offensive use of LB3.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

It's "skip soar" all over again.

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It's not. Skip soar was way more aggressive, it forced players to play to their very best. With a community as casual as XIV, that wasn't gonna happen. With this, you could do 2k DPS and still kill it, so long as you don't have duplicates. (Believe me, I had a SAM doing 2k DPS and we did kill it.) Tank LB3 just saves time, Soar forces you to do a mechanic.