The problem with healing

Firstly I'd like to apologize. This is partly a request to SE and partly venting because I know they probably will just ignore it.

I love healing. I enjoy helping people run content and helping everyone do their best. I'll admit in my time learning my role there was a lot of salt and misunderstandings. My past threads show that (one in particular which simply refuses to die). But through all of that I've had great experiences with new faces and old friends.

However in that time I've slowly began to notice a glaring problem with the role of healer. To place it plainly we're the second class citizens of spice and variety. We've been relegated to this role of being the "pure maiden" if you will. And it has been so since ARR.

You can see it in our healing, our dps, our outfits, and even our damned quest-lines. Its nothing but the same old thing of "Oh hey I'm a calm and collected healer, lets purify the woods, lets purify society, lets purify a centuries old curse with the power of love!" its the same damned thing over and over again.

I know this isn't because of some malicious conspiracy against support players or some nonsense like that. However this trend needs to stop. We need something foul and profane for once. Something that goes beyond the black and white narrative that has been established for healing.

What I'm proposing is what I've proposed in the past and what I will continue to advocate. We need an edgy healer. Yes it sounds silly but its true. We need something with variety. Something that doesn't fall into the time honored tradition of "purity and grace" that healers are restricted to. Hell even Ascian healers are just conjurers in the Summoner Quest-line!

So I here by formally ask Square to please give us healers the variety that they've shown every other role. Give us something dark. Give us something edgy. For god sake give use something that isn't deep fried in the elder seed seers fashion sense. I don't care if its a copy paste of whm again like ast (you have to admit their healing kits are exactly the same) but with dark auras and the like. I'm just so sick of being white and fluffy.

I've seen tones of great ideas from other players about what would make a great healing class. I've seen other players echo my desire to see something other than what we've gotten for every itiration of the game thus far.

So I ask every healer here. Please! Post your ideas. Post your complaints. Post anything and everything that will get SE's attention and let them know that we need something more the next expansion other than thematic repeat of white mage!

Go scholar, we're marines :)

“Come hells or high water!"

Specifically, if you account for the ACN questline, we're marine strategists who math and plan so thoroughly that the world itself just gives up and accepts that things are going to go our way.

yes yes release healer that uses hp to cast spells instead of mp, mp is for non edgy fake healers anyway :D is great idea

Necromancer for new healer job! :D

Mortician should be the next healer job. You're really just preparing the body for inevitable death. I would love to see an auto-revive to undead zombie status skill that has to be reversed manually.

That is one thing I dislike WHM: They're treated as some sort of priest. The result is some religious-like skills/spells names. But dammit, we, White Mages are mages! MAGES! I would like to have some WHM skills renamed as such:

Benediction to Full-Cure
Tetragrammaton to Cura (Tetragrammaton are the name of the israeli God in hebraic)
Divine Benison to Water Armor/Skin
Plenary Indulgence - Aetherial Recovery (and its stacks to Aether Node)

Or, at least, have the WHM quests and new skills to be more in line with what's going on. His quests don't touch on the war of the magi (that was battled by White Mages) or the fact that White Magic (and Black Magic) is pretty much outlawed on Eorzea, just purify, purify and purify some more. And I saw no integration with the fact WoL being healer on MSQ. He hasn't even try to heal someone who dies in front of him. He hasn't even tried to raise Haurchefant.

Jokes aside, I'd love some witch/forest nymph like kind of a healer that's nature themed but ain't no tree hugger! Something focused on hexes, curses, something inspired from the Slavic culture would make me happy but this also feels not very FF like. :)

Hmm, a “dark mage”, kind of like how dark knight is supposed to be the opposite of paladin. I like it.

Clothes could look all goth-like or demonic. The Ascian outfit can be their level 50 armor set. And have “evil” powers. Like transfering the health from DPS party member to give to the tank. Having a “cover” ability that works the opposite: Others forced to protect you instead of you protecting others.

Like DRK living dead, you can grant a immunity to a party member, but drop their health down to 1 hp. You must heal them back up within a certain amount of time or they die. Duration scales based on remaining hp (you have less time if they had less hp when cast).

Focus on CC/debuffs to mitigate party damage instead of “shields”. Your basic heals are more powerful than other healers, but always come with a price to balance it out. A sort of “deal with the devil” arrangement.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

yes yes release healer that uses hp to cast spells instead of mp, mp is for non edgy fake healers anyway :D is great idea

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Lorewise, through CNJ quests, you use your own aether/life force to heal others. So that's kinda edgy.

We need like a cross between the Inquisitor class in EQ2 and Harrow from Warframe, with nastier sounding stuff and you flagelate yourself to heal others, damaging yourself to make the heals stronger.

Oh! And the “ultimate” ability could be an auto-raise on yourself, should you die (on a long cool down). That will provide a utility currently lacking. Namely, if the healer messes up once and dies, the whole party wipes. However if a DPS messes up and dies, it is no big deal since you can just raise them.

Being hard to kill fits in with the Lore too since the ascians are supposed to be somewhat immortal... coming back after they die instead of permenantly dying.

Or maybe they can come back by “taking over” the body of one of your party members temporarily, with all your skills intact. You can then preceed to raise your KOed self. That way you have another nice meme ability like “rescue” to annoy the rest of your party.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

yes yes release healer that uses hp to cast spells instead of mp, mp is for non edgy fake healers anyway :D is great idea

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I know this is something of a joking reply, but in all seriousness -- such a healer would just kill herself in raids and such. As with Dark Knight, they'd have to do away with health sacrifices in favor of something else. (You could always have a 'life energy' type resource thing to use, and maybe if it runs out it does hurt you or something)

Not to sound rude...what did you expect? Technically a healers role is to mainly cure and on occasion DPS as much as possible. When doing the story line in SB we kind of did both. No surprise though if you want more action then that would be DPS. Besides while being a amge you do have to keep in mind one thing... mages are squishy -.-./

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not to sound rude...what did you expect? Technically a healers role is to mainly cure and on occasion DPS as much as possible. When doing the story line in SB we kind of did both. No surprise though if you want more action then that would be DPS. Besides while being a amge you do have to keep in mind one thing... mages are squishy -.-./

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While an 'edgelord healer' doesn't particularly appeal to me either, there's nothing wrong with asking for variety -- especially thematically. Before AST existed, ideas about a star/fortune reading never really came up in the community but I think a lot of people agree now, it's a very cool theme.

Personally, though, I just hope the next healer isn't (mechanically) a copy-paste of a bunch of WHM spells.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not to sound rude...what did you expect? Technically a healers role is to mainly cure and on occasion DPS as much as possible. When doing the story line in SB we kind of did both. No surprise though if you want more action then that would be DPS. Besides while being a amge you do have to keep in mind one thing... mages are squishy -.-./

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...did you even bother reading my post? this has nothing to do with dps. This has everything to do with being relegated to the theme of "pure priest" at all times.

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Originally Posted by Braven

Hmm, a “dark mage”, kind of like how dark knight is supposed to be the opposite of paladin. I like it.

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It's pretty much already exists. And its name is "Black Mage".

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

...did you even bother reading my post? this has nothing to do with dps. This has everything to do with being relegated to the theme of "pure priest" at all times.

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Lets see besides having all healer roles at 70, doing relics, know how healer role works NO I'm just making up random stuff. -.-

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Lets see besides having all healer roles at 70, doing relics, know how healer role works NO I'm just making up random stuff. -.-

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But you aren't responding to the actual post.

This thread has literally nothing to do with healer dps and everything to do with the theme given to healers.

The OP wants some variety in the abilities/glam/quests that makes a healer darker or separates it from the fluffy, typical mmo healer.

Also if you've leveled all the healers to 70 you know of course that healers are almost impossible to kill in quest battles because we can heal ourselves so your squishy comment is kinda moot. Anything short of a one-shot is mostly negligible

I understand the healer theme isn't for everyone, but I can't see how a dark and edgy theme would even suit someone who's calling is literally making other people's ailments better. It's an inherently caring profession (which is, likely and sadly, why so many WHM in so many FF titles are female...), and I really can't see how to bring something dark into that. It goes against the very idea behind somebody who takes care of others in my opinion. Sure, there are doctors in real life who will hurt or even kill you. However, those strayed far from their original profession and, in my eyes, cannot be considered doctors any longer.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

That is one thing I dislike WHM: They're treated as some sort of priest. The result is some religious-like skills/spells names. But dammit, we, White Mages are mages! MAGES! I would like to have some WHM skills renamed as such:
Or, at least, have the WHM quests and new skills to be more in line with what's going on. His quests don't touch on the war of the magi (that was battled by White Mages) or the fact that White Magic (and Black Magic) is pretty much outlawed on Eorzea, just purify, purify and purify some more. And I saw no integration with the fact WoL being healer on MSQ. He hasn't even try to heal someone who dies in front of him. He hasn't even tried to raise Haurchefant.

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What's so bad about having a priestly job? They traditionally (and in a somewhat romantic sense) represent the same values a healer does, so it kinda makes sense to me that the two are meshed together at times. It's not even as if ALL healers are priestly. Scholars are, well, just what the name says, and Astrologians are something else as well. If you don't like the theme, maybe play one of those if your dislike is bad enough. It's also not as if there aren't any bases for the White Mage being a mage, either. We get those skills from Conjury, and from the later job quests.

Yes, White Mages are partially responsible for the 6th Umbral Era. HOWEVER, while it is true they corrupted white magic for their own gains, they mostly used it to defend themselves, to breath live into inanimate objects. They didn't corrupt it in the sense of using it for something bad. Even the Voidsent in Lost City aren't there because White Mages summoned them. They got summoned by Black Mages, and the caught and thus neutralized by the Amdapori.

Also, did you even play 4.0 yet? Because there IS a scene where you are using healing spells if you go into that cutscene as a healer. You can even reproduce it in the inn. So you stating we never get to heal in cutscenes (outside job quests, I might add, because there are ALSO cutscenes where you heal in those; or DPS) either means you've never seen that scene while on a healer job, or you aren't far enough into the story. That scene with Haurchefant caused an outrage with many healers, which is likely one of the reasons that other scene was included into 4.0. Haurchefant could either be explained away by saying the wound was lethal anyway (and as a medic you can judge if a wound is or not), or you were too exhausted by the battles before. It is still very jarring, nobody will argue that away, though...

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

But you aren't responding to the actual post.

This thread has literally nothing to do with healer dps and everything to do with the theme given to healers.

The OP wants some variety in the abilities/glam/quests that makes a healer darker or separates it from the fluffy, typical mmo healer.

Also if you've leveled all the healers to 70 you know of course that healers are almost impossible to kill in quest battles because we can heal ourselves so your squishy comment is kinda moot. Anything short of a one-shot is mostly negligible

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If they want something darker in story line it might be best to trow some ideas for story line. Yes the healing helps with the softness so lets make it were more NPCs are needed to stay alive, or perhaps start off by having them seal your spells and get them as mobs begin to drop randomly. Something of that sort, not to complain but being it's a support job it makes sense on what they are doing.

As for your comment on healers almost impossible to kill, well yes if you actually know how a healer works, point is they can still be ko'd.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

That is one thing I dislike WHM: They're treated as some sort of priest

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They really did go hog wild on this lately and it doesn't fit the lore that well, since nearly every White Mage is a Padjal, not a priest.

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Or, at least, have the WHM quests and new skills to be more in line with what's going on. His quests don't touch on the war of the magi (that was battled by White Mages) or the fact that White Magic (and Black Magic) is pretty much outlawed on Eorzea, just purify, purify and purify some more.

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White Magic isn't illegal. The rulers of Gridania are White Mages. The Elementals of the Twelveswood just decide who is allowed to be one and that's usually Padjal (and us, because we're special). Black Magic is kinda sorta illegal but you can see how well that's enforced in the BLM job quests.

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And I saw no integration with the fact WoL being healer on MSQ. He hasn't even try to heal someone who dies in front of him. He hasn't even tried to raise Haurchefant.

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This bugged the hell out of me. There's so many of them where people are running around dying and need a healer and the WoL just stands there like a chump, right after using LB3 and bringing up an entire raid team from the brink of death! It was nice when they acknowedged that healers do exist in Stormblood's MSQ. The dichotomy between death and "death" is an RPG staple though, that isn't going anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

So I ask every healer here. Please! Post your ideas. Post your complaints. Post anything and everything that will get SE's attention and let them know that we need something more the next expansion other than thematic repeat of white mage!

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I'm definitley concerned about a thematic repeat of White Mage, given what we saw in job quests in Stormblood. But I'm more concerned about a mechanical repeat. As it stands right now, how would they make another healer that doesn't play the same as what we already have except with a different coat of paint? That doesn't really help anybody.

If they can come up with something new mechanically and they want to give that a bit of an edge? Okay, sure. But it's probably Dancer, and I don't see that as particularly grimdark. Not to mention that all the shared healing gear is shared, and I don't think they want White Mages to look like Black Mages.

Idk about you all but my scholar is a mercenary medic and master of poisons

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Originally Posted by Tridus

This bugged the hell out of me. There's so many of them where people are running around dying and need a healer and the WoL just stands there like a chump, right after using LB3 and bringing up an entire raid team from the brink of death! It was nice when they acknowedged that healers do exist in Stormblood's MSQ.

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To be fair, they can't acknowledge healers too often because everyone has to have the same ultimate outcome regardless of their choices for story cohesion. If I healed Haurchefant, that would be a huge problem lol.

I do think it's hard to have an "edgy" or "grimdark" healer because purification, protection, it's what healers do, and it's hard to pair the mending and soothing of hurts with someone who doesn't really care about others.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I do think it's hard to have an "edgy" or "grimdark" healer because purification, protection, it's what healers do, and it's hard to pair the mending and soothing of hurts with someone who doesn't really care about others.

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There are numerous examples of how to do it in other games. Yeah it wouldn't really fit in the existing healer questlines but it could fit in a new one. It also doesn't have to be flat out "I'm evil and want to burn the world down" either -- this game's Dark Knight is a good example of how something can be done grimdark-ish, but with more of 'outlaw with a code of justice' type leanings.

Your title is a bit misleading... You have an issue with the aesthetics and implied personality of healers, rather than an issue with healing itself.

I personally don't really care, as long as the job works as intended and is fun and interesting to play than it can be whatever.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

There are numerous examples of how to do it in other games. Yeah it wouldn't really fit in the existing healer questlines but it could fit in a new one. It also doesn't have to be flat out "I'm evil and want to burn the world down" either -- this game's Dark Knight is a good example of how something can be done grimdark-ish, but with more of 'outlaw with a code of justice' type leanings.

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Yes, but it is also in a Dark Knight's nature to kill. It's a little easier to paint a job as an anti-hero when they seek blood justice. Healers in the typical FF lore, especially WHMs are not violent in nature. However, many have been adventurous; seeking thrills to take them away from their strict disciplines.

I don't feel that SCHs and ASTs share the tree-hugging mentality/theme of WHMs. They may not bring a necromancer type edginess to the healer role, but they are each certainly unique in terms of questlines, attire, lore, and mentality. SCH and AST even bring unique mechanics with their fairy and cards respectively.

I'm not saying the game has no place for an edgy healer. Some of the healing sets out there are far from looking like it was made in the clouds, and are very dark. I really like the idea of this type of dark healer taking HP and buffs from their enemies and transferring it to themselves and their comrades, along with a similar concept when they cleanse debuffs (take from party member and give it to the mob).

About armors: I don't know, 99% of the time we get the very same amor looks as caster dpsers, except white instead of black/red/grey/blue/etc. Since dyes are a thing I literally see no difference between say a white mage and a black mage in outfits. And for the AF ones, come on, are you telling me Black Mages have scary outfits? Only if you're scared of clowns. And Astrologist dress is actually pretty badass and also black, instead.

About not aknowledging us in the story: I agree with who said the WoL has to fit every class, so it wouldn't make sense for most. There's one time though in which Krile tells us "You're a healer, no? Then get healing all these people!!" or something, which kinda shocked me as it was the only time ever.

Now for a more dark healer, I'm all for it, but it needs to make sense in the game. That class would need to have a reason to be a healer too, which is not so easy with such a trait.

And I agree with who said the title is totally misleading.

They really jumped the shark with the butterfly stick, the pink dress af armor (though it still beat Grandma's Nightgown from HW), and the Divine Benison / Plenary Indulgence additions. I mean, I'm fine with the black/white thematics, and I'm not one to advocate for heteronormative gender roles. But I am weary of being told I'm a pretty princess.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

They really jumped the shark with the butterfly stick, the pink dress af armor (though it still beat Grandma's Nightgown from HW), and the Divine Benison / Plenary Indulgence additions. I mean, I'm fine with the black/white thematics, and I'm not one to advocate for heteronormative gender roles. But I am weary of being told I'm a pretty princess.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHyKfv84io0

I'M SORRY I HAD TO

ahaha I didn't think anyone would get the reference :D

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm not saying the game has no place for an edgy healer. Some of the healing sets out there are far from looking like it was made in the clouds, and are very dark. I really like the idea of this type of dark healer taking HP and buffs from their enemies and transferring it to themselves and their comrades, along with a similar concept when they cleanse debuffs (take from party member and give it to the mob).

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This would be an interesting concept, though potentially difficult to balance within the structure of XIV's healing.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

What's so bad about having a priestly job?

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Priest powers come directly from the gods. If he heals, it's God's blessing. If he does damage, it's God's wrath. Simple like that.

But the source of Conjurer's powers are the elementals, wich mantains a relation that, IMO, is close to what Summoners have with EGIs (without actually summoning them). And White Magick is a technique for manipulating Aether created by Amdapor's magi to manipulate Aether. His powers weren't bestowed upon White Mages directly from The Twelve.

I see no sense on White Mage being a priest.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

They traditionally (and in a somewhat romantic sense) represent the same values a healer does, so it kinda makes sense to me that the two are meshed together at times.

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Agreed. And that's why 534/10 games name its healer as "Priest".

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

It's not even as if ALL healers are priestly.

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Agreed again. Healers don't need to be priests. They even don't need to be good, since a healer can heal other people for selfish reasons.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Scholars are, well, just what the name says, and Astrologians are something else as well. If you don't like the theme, maybe play one of those if your dislike is bad enough.

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I like the White Mage's lore. I like the idea of "mage that heals".

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

It's also not as if there aren't any bases for the White Mage being a mage, either. We get those skills from Conjury, and from the later job quests.

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There are lore base to sustain that White Mage is a mage. A mage who use a magick technique that was created to counter Shantotto's technique.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Yes, White Mages are partially responsible for the 6th Umbral Era. HOWEVER, while it is true they corrupted white magic for their own gains, they mostly used it to defend themselves, to breath live into inanimate objects. They didn't corrupt it in the sense of using it for something bad. Even the Voidsent in Lost City aren't there because White Mages summoned them. They got summoned by Black Mages, and the caught and thus neutralized by the Amdapori.

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Ultimately, the 6th Umbral Calamity was caused by White Mages. Yes, White Magic was created to be a counter for Black Magic. But it is

But the abusive use of the Aether angered the Elementals and their response was the Great Flood. That's why White Magic was outlawed for who isn't Padjal (but not conjury).

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Also, did you even play 4.0 yet? Because there IS a scene where you are using healing spells if you go into that cutscene as a healer. You can even reproduce it in the inn. So you stating we never get to heal in cutscenes (outside job quests, I might add, because there are ALSO cutscenes where you heal in those; or DPS) either means you've never seen that scene while on a healer job, or you aren't far enough into the story.

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I stated that I didn't[*]SAW[*] any cutscene outside the job quests where the fact the WoL is a healer were important. If I don't saw, it don't means that it didn't exist. FYI, I stopped at 3.2 (stopped to level an alt to retake the MSQ in the healer's place).

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

That scene with Haurchefant caused an outrage with many healers, which is likely one of the reasons that other scene was included into 4.0. Haurchefant could either be explained away by saying the wound was lethal anyway (and as a medic you can judge if a wound is or not), or you were too exhausted by the battles before. It is still very jarring, nobody will argue that away, though...

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That outrage can explain why they added some interaction only on 4.0. Well, better late than never.

But the infuriating part is that the WoL done nothing. Not even tried to see if he can do something about the wound. If he was too tired, but tried anyway (and failed due to lack of MP) or said that the wound is so severe that even his best healing spells isn't enough to prevent his death), that was excusable. But he just stood there with a poker face. Maybe the development team slightly forgot that there could be healers doing the MSQ?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

They really did go hog wild on this lately and it doesn't fit the lore that well, since nearly every White Mage is a Padjal, not a priest.

White Magic isn't illegal. The rulers of Gridania are White Mages.

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Is legal for them because they're Padjals (the eldest Padjal). I understood that if you aren't a Padjal, White Magic is not for you. But, for some reason, everyone turns a blind eye when the WoL messes up with forbidden magic (be it black or white) or helps forming a militia (hello Crystal Braves o/).

But it isn't clear for me (yet) who enforces the law who forbid black and white magic. It is the Twelveshood? It is the Padjals (and thus gridanian government)? Are the elementals itself (and thus, again, gridanian government)?

And why the WoL didn't gone to Amdapor Keep to grab his soul stone or it isn't part of any WHM job quest up to level 60?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The Elementals of the Twelveswood just decide who is allowed to be one and that's usually Padjal (and us, because we're special). Black Magic is kinda sorta illegal but you can see how well that's enforced in the BLM job quests.

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Not gone too far on BLM quests (up until 35'ish quest), but interested on seeing more of that. When I grab level 70 on WHM and RDM, I'll level the BLM.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

This bugged the hell out of me. There's so many of them where people are running around dying and need a healer and the WoL just stands there like a chump, right after using LB3 and bringing up an entire raid team from the brink of death! It was nice when they acknowedged that healers do exist in Stormblood's MSQ. The dichotomy between death and "death" is an RPG staple though, that isn't going anywhere.

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At least on table RPGs I played (D&D and WoD), it have a KO mechanic, where the player character can actually die. It could be more explored, saying, for example, what is the limit of the healing spells. For example, "cure is useless against a wound more severe than a scratch", "raise heals some letal wounds, but with some limit (what can explain the Brink of Death debuff).

So, something like White Magic being equally a force usable for wrong, with people tapping into their very souls for inherently short-lived conquest or idealistic counter-conquest, and that even curative magics are just as equally part of an ever-escalating arms war, as per reference in the 1.x WHM storylines?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Yes, but it is also in a Dark Knight's nature to kill. It's a little easier to paint a job as an anti-hero when they seek blood justice. Healers in the typical FF lore, especially WHMs are not violent in nature. However, many have been adventurous; seeking thrills to take them away from their strict disciplines.

I don't feel that SCHs and ASTs share the tree-hugging mentality/theme of WHMs. They may not bring a necromancer type edginess to the healer role, but they are each certainly unique in terms of questlines, attire, lore, and mentality. SCH and AST even bring unique mechanics with their fairy and cards respectively.

I'm not saying the game has no place for an edgy healer. Some of the healing sets out there are far from looking like it was made in the clouds, and are very dark. I really like the idea of this type of dark healer taking HP and buffs from their enemies and transferring it to themselves and their comrades, along with a similar concept when they cleanse debuffs (take from party member and give it to the mob).

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Healing by doing damage is definitely something other MMOs offer, which of course potentially fits in with the OP's request for darker themes as well as the general demand for healer dps.

I don't care about edginess as a healer but I do worry that they basically made AST as a "half-WHM"/"half-SCH" with buff cards. SE will need to come up with some different themes/mechanics if they add a new healer job in 5.0 to avoid redundancy.

To avoid imbalance there would need to be some limitation on the duration or effectiveness of a needs-to-dps-to-heal job, maybe something like a heat gauge for Machinists or a need to flip from one resource to another like BLM. This need to ramp up and cool-down would provide a different kind of challenge for healers whether it is done up in goth/grim themes or in fluffy puppy rainbow power.