Warrior is OP

Calling it now. The DPS warrior is putting out, especially AoE, is bonkers.

SE, what were you thinking.

Warriors always had one of the best AOE bursts though.
This is nothing new.

Yep, it's perfectly normal for a tank to have burst DPS better than some DPS.....Yep.
Not OP at all. DRK is fine too. Doing the lowest dps and having no utility.
Working as intended.

Yeah when I bursted with 6 Decimate my AoE was insane in 4.1. So yeah.

And now with the new IR you can do some 3.0 DA Abyssal Drain shit with Steel Cyclone now.

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Yep, it's perfectly normal for a tank to have burst DPS better than some DPS.....Yep.
Not OP at all. DRK is fine too. Doing the lowest dps and having no utility.
Working as intended.

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Theorycrafters are placing drk between pld and war as far as dps goes. And Tbn is fantastic utility for progression, plus if savage holds up the same then a lot of the fights are gonna have heavy magic damage.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

SE, what were you thinking.

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Blood and Thunder!

SE had to make WAR OP so edgelord DRKs would be able to roleplay being sad more effectively, working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Yep, it's perfectly normal for a tank to have burst DPS better than some DPS.....Yep.
Not OP at all. DRK is fine too. Doing the lowest dps and having no utility.
Working as intended.

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DRK doesnt have the lowest tank dps, thats lookin to be PLD. WAR doesnt have better butst than DPS unless youre looking at an excellent warrior and a poor to mediocre dps.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Theorycrafters are placing drk between pld and war as far as dps goes.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

DRK doesnt have the lowest tank dps, thats lookin to be PLD.

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Anyone have any links to where people go into this with info to back it up?
I'm curious to check it out since that runs contrary to what seemed to be the consensus over the past few days.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

DRK doesnt have the lowest tank dps, thats lookin to be PLD. WAR doesnt have better butst than DPS unless youre looking at an excellent warrior and a poor to mediocre dps.

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Wrong in another thread someone did the math and PLD is still doing more dps than DARK sorry to break it to you...

Warriors aren't doing that much damage than before the patch. You have to understand that BERSERK IS GONE FROM THE GAME, and Storm's Eye is now just a 10% increase in damage instead of 20%.

The only increase in damage they got is a weak tweak on all their skills, and the Inner Release change. Now this last one is hard to define as a "damage increase" because it depends on how you look at it. Before the patch, if you hit critical direct hits on ALL your Fell Cleaves, then yeah... you now do less damage. But let's say you didn't hit a single crit with your opening Fell Cleaves. Your damage would suck.

I remember before, a normal Fell Cleave would hit for 8k. With Berserk, it would be 13k. Critical direct hits would be around 24k. Now, my Fell Cleaves are doing 16k. All of them. Except whereas before we got 4 Fell Cleaves on our opener, we now get 6. So just that right there is a huge damage increase. But if you take the average normal situation where SOME of your Fell Cleaves would land critical direct hits, I would say it is only a small damage increase, if not closer to the same. So there is no "OMGWTF BURST" from Warriors.

Six 16k Fell Cleaves is 96,000. Assuming you landed four 24k Fell Cleaves on last patch, you'd do 96,000 as well. But guess how often that happened? "Oh, so now they don't need to get lucky to do TONS of damage!" Correct, but you also need to take into account that we got a damage decrease from the Storm's Eye nerf, AND that Berserk is gone. After factoring those things in, you'll see that overall, on average, Warrior damage hasn't changed that much.

I am curious what the numbers will be when WAR's start melding DET since crit / DH are useless for the most pivotal part of a WAR's DPS.
While still being angry that WAR got a complete overhaul and DRK was left as a shambles of a tank with no strength and multiple weaknesses.

DPS aside, being able to drop so much Steel Cyclone has definitely helped with AoE tanking. Starting up a pull with that much self heals, it's almost too good.

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Originally Posted by Isala

DPS aside, being able to drop so much Steel Cyclone has definitely helped with AoE tanking. Starting up a pull with that much self heals, it's almost too good.

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It is too good. :( Probably gonna get nerfed soon.

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

I am curious what the numbers will be when WAR's start melding DET since crit / DH are useless for the most pivotal part of a WAR's DPS.
While still being angry that WAR got a complete overhaul and DRK was left as a shambles of a tank with no strength and multiple weaknesses.

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Ya will check that when I get some gear during the week. still melded STR/DH on accessories though. I will need to take some SKS since due to my latency I can't hit 5 FC in the Zerk window and I am sitting on 800 SKS. But time will tell with the numbers I guess, when the clever people start doing there maths

AoE is super strong right now, yesterday I couldn't play much but did a couple pulls on OS5 and I felt basically invunerable during the add phase of that fight if using Steel Cyclone, but giving the adds to my DRK friend to tank and going for 5 Decimates felt even more ridiculous, they died super fast.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

After factoring those things in, you'll see that overall, on average, Warrior damage hasn't changed that much.

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I'm not a War main, and only got it 70 last week to be honest.
So there's a great chance it's the dumbing down of the rotation and not a pps increase, but still : I got from 3150 to 3350 on V4S SSS dummy (from 14 seconds left to 25 seconds left) without changing my gear (i325 or something)

I'd like to know the tests made by Wars who knew well the old rotation, to only factor maths and not class mastery.
But for new players it is a clear buff (likely linked to the rotation changes)

Btw to Faeon : I hit 5 FC without issues with 1000 sks (granted you use IR just before the GCD of course), so the cap must be in between 800-1000 sks (+/- ping)

I love how these threads went from hating WAR changes to loving them in a single day.

Stay classy.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

I'm not a War main, and only got it 70 last week to be honest.
So there's a great chance it's the dumbing down of the rotation and not a pps increase, but still : I got from 3150 to 3350 on V4S SSS dummy (from 14 seconds left to 25 seconds left) without changing my gear (i325 or something)

I'd like to know the tests made by Wars who knew well the old rotation, to only factor maths and not class mastery.
But for new players it is a clear buff (likely linked to the rotation changes)

Btw to Faeon : I hit 5 FC without issues with 1000 sks (granted you use IR just before the GCD of course), so the cap must be in between 800-1000 sks (+/- ping)

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Thanks will do some testing again my latency is around 180-200ms :(

Even if warriors have slightly worse sustained DPS over time, burst DPS still make them more powerful in typical dungeon. Why? The weaker, non-burst phase will take place during “dungeon down time”. During the peak of a huge pull, they will unleash the beast when maximum AOE damage can happen. The “napkin math” assumes a warrior is fighting 100% without ever pausing, a single enemy that never moves. It doesn’t account for enemy variance at all and only considers fell cleve instead of AOE with 15 mobs present whenever inner release goes on cooldown.

The napkin math always assumes you are fighting a training dummy instead of factoring in the dynamically changing enviroment where sometimes there are 15 foes and sometimes one weak foe. That makes math hard, so we pretend training dummies are what we fight 100% of the time.

Prepare yourself for warrior Big D!ck pulls every 80 seconds to unleash the new, bigger beast. Maybe they will sit for 80 seconds after each pull to get their beast back before the next, because you know, building up the guage with weak attacks is not needed now and we only want to ever see HUGE number

How is that 100 potency eclipse AOE looking now, Paladins? LOL!

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Thanks will do some testing again my latency is around 180-200ms :(

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970 SS, 185ms, can land 5 FC during IR. Check it out! And make sure you don't pop IR while you are still waiting for your GCD.

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Originally Posted by Braven

How is that 100 potency eclipse AOE looking now, Paladins? LOL!

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Not that bad. I was doing prog last night on O5S and when the adds pop'd, I used FoF + Total Eclipse (Sword Oath) and the damage was alright. I was also able to spam it and use CoS in between. It's not the greatest but being spammeable is a plus.

I can land 5 Fell Cleaves as well but it's risky. And only if I don't use Upheaval/Onslaught. I have highish ping, but it's weird because I don't see my GCDs getting clipped. I just went full attack speed items, sitting at 1600 just to make sure I get it down 100% of the time with no chance to mess up. It's very fun. Recast times are at 2.31 right now. I'll keep testing things out though.

It takes paladin over 20 eclipses just to equal 5 warrior decimates under inner beast, even consider the fight or flight buff and no storms eye at all for warrior (who has the time for those weak attacks to setup storms eye? Not worth it or needed.)

Each decimate direct critical hit does roughly 500 potency to everything with no downscaling and zero beast guage required. I am not even adding in the damage bonus for being in deliverance stance or the fact vengence is also hitting them all regularly for another 55 potency AOE, so it is actually probably quite a bit more than 500, but rounding down makes for a nice round number.

5 x 500 = 2,500
125 (buffed paladin AOE) x 10 (buff wears off here) = 1,250
100 x 13 = 1,300 (remaining to match warrior output)

In reality, it will be less than 23 attacks since paladin will get some accidental crits and direct hits now and then. So lets round down to 20 attacks (and just ignore the TP limitations that would prevent this from actually working since I want to make paladin look as good as possible)

So, it will take paladin 47.5 seconds just to match warriors damage in 10 seconds. Sound balanced to you?

Now, you may argue the cooldown prevents inner beast from being used too much. However, it probably takes more than 80 seconds to pull EVERY SINGLE TRASH MOB in the dungeon into one spot to kill them all at once. So is that really a limiting factor? Worried about dying in those 10 seconds? Just pop every single defensive cooldown you have at once. Holg-gang provides 6 seconds of immunity by itself.

Welcome to the new and improved speed meta. This is why removing the beast guage resource requirements from inner beast is such a terrible idea. They just made an awful meta trend even worse. Thanks Square-Enix. Good job “fixing” warrior.

UPDATE: Within the context of total party damage, even DPS jobs cannot do anywhere near 500 burst aoe damage at the start of a fight; DPS job average is around 200 potency and 100 for the healer (after factoring long cast times, AOE scaling penalties, and the fact enemies will die before DOTs can run their full course and a longer fights would require healing globals in massive pulls after immunities). Warrior is doing about 50% of the total party damage compared with a paladin doing about 18% or less (since other job’s AOE dots become relatively better the longer the fight. Even within the context of a light party, the warrior contribution is massive now.

Side note: if fitting in all 5 Decimates ever becomes an issue, maybe Scholar’s haste buff or AST arrow card will come back into style. An arrow + balance = 1-2 punch.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Theorycrafters are placing drk between pld and war as far as dps goes. And Tbn is fantastic utility for progression, plus if savage holds up the same then a lot of the fights are gonna have heavy magic damage.

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and you said it... theory. How it's really working though is below the other two. Not to mention, tanking in general in this game has really turned into more of a game challenge than anything else. Potency levels on DPS are insanely high, threat generation is horrid. A MCH of all classes ripped agro off of my PLD after I flashed three times on a pack of mobs and doing my AoE. I like WAR, but I have some issues playing it and not quite used to tanking with it in 70s. PLD is easy mode tanking, and still having issues in a group environment is just silly at this point. I'll just go and play RDM, so I can rip agro from every tank out there, like every other person is doing.

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Originally Posted by Braven

So, it will take paladin 47.5 seconds just to match warriors damage in 10 seconds. Sound balanced to you?

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I didn't check your napkin math for accuracy, but one thing to remember is that you can't look at this just at a tank level (also CoS is oGCD). The benefit of this damage is the difference in fight time and it's not just the PLD who works to catch up, it's the entire party. You're saying there is about 37.5 seconds to make up, but 4 ppl work to make up that difference at the same time, 37.5 / 4 is ~9.3 seconds. Realistically, you're probably looking at around 3 to 4 party-wide GCDs to make up the difference in your example.
The impact of that AoE burst will likely save you less than a minute throughout the course of a dungeon.

Good burst for sure, but not OP IMO. A PLD preventing 1 death could make up for it.

I was able to consistently hit 5 FCs with no melding and 845 SKS while weaving Thrill of Battle, Upheaval and Onslaught, but it was very tight and I have pretty good ping iirc. However I felt there was no room for error or lag or I would just barely miss the fifth FC.

After slotting 2 Quickarm VI materia and taking my SKS to 925, I noticed a much nicer buffer that I felt more comfortable with, with each materia slotted shaving off 0.01s from the GCD, going from 2.43s to 2.41s.

After that though I noticed an immediate drop-off in return from points in SKS, needing to slot two Quickarm VI materia per 0.01s GCD reduction instead of just one.

So it seems, from what I can see, that approximately 900-950 SKS w/ a 2.41 GCD is the sweet spot where you should be able to comfortably fit in 5 FC and before you start hitting diminishing returns on SKS.

However, if you have bad ping or not the greatest of reaction time, slotting a couple more materia to get your SKS to just above 1000 shouldn't affect your other stats too much.

FeelsBadMan. I need over 1500 skill speed to hit the fifth one consistently. :( They should really change the way the game registers your button presses.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

FeelsBadMan. I need over 1500 skill speed to hit the fifth one consistently. :( They should really change the way the game registers your button presses.

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Are you using a GCD ability before popping IR and then going into FC spam?

If so that could be causing it so that your GCD still has a fraction of a second left on its cooldown when IR goes active, resulting in you having that fraction of a second less to fit in the fifth FC which can make all the difference.

Personally I find it useful to pop Thrill of Battle right before IR which helps provide a bigger buffer to make sure my GCD is off cooldown before I start Fell Cleaving. Also lining up ToB with the IR window so you maximize the boost to Upheaval is a good idea.

Asides from that the only thing that I could recommend to maybe help alleviate the issue is to just practice the cadence of weaving the OGCDs between the FC spam. I could see how that may feel weird to many WAR mains since before when you did FC spam it was just mashing a single button for the most part.

Oh, and make sure to pop Infuriate a little bit before you go into your IR window so that you use the FC spam from it to maximize the time you shave off from its recast. Dump some gauge by FCing if needed before using Infuriate of course.

Are you pressing inner release when you have the GCD available for use? I notice when my GCD is in CD and hit Inner release, I will miss the 5th FC.

Are you waiting until 50% through the GCD before popping?

Warrior always seems to get super buffed, the playerbase pretty much demands it who play them. I remember the constant rage when PLD actually outdamaged them in 4.0 for 3 weeks before they were buffed above them. Warrior will always be a problem, no one wants to lose damage and people get angry when what their class is known for is lost. Warriors are the big hitting tanks, change that and those who enjoy them may not want to play their class anymore. It would feel like SE destroyed their identity, and it is hard to tell when you have too much damage. Warrior is kinda a delicate class to adjust.

Meanwhile DRK is broken and useless and they do nothing about it.
Meanwhile NIN has been mandatory for TA since 3.x with no nerf.
Meanwhile SAM and BLM bring nothing to a group and nobody wants them.
But WAR was too hard for all the poor casuals so it got an entire rework with new skills and traits just to make them easier while classes with real issues are flatly ignored.

Well it's a lot more than just the damage.

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Meanwhile DRK is broken and useless and they do nothing about it.
Meanwhile NIN has been mandatory for TA since 3.x with no nerf.
Meanwhile SAM and BLM bring nothing to a group and nobody wants them.
But WAR was too hard for all the poor casuals so it got an entire rework with new skills and traits just to make them easier while classes with real issues are flatly ignored.

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I understand your point, but there's only so many ways to say the same thing. It's becoming white noise at this point.

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Meanwhile DRK is broken and useless and they do nothing about it.
Meanwhile NIN has been mandatory for TA since 3.x with no nerf.
Meanwhile SAM and BLM bring nothing to a group and nobody wants them.
But WAR was too hard for all the poor casuals so it got an entire rework with new skills and traits just to make them easier while classes with real issues are flatly ignored.

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Hey we didn't ask for it, but got it anyways. lol

Maybe all the DRK should use reverse psychology as well. lmao

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Originally Posted by ULoki

Hey we didn't ask for it, but got it anyways. lol

Maybe all the DRK should use reverse psychology as well. lmao

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Username checks out.

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Originally Posted by Noata

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Unfortunately I feel that the devs, and a portion of the community, have settled into the mentality of "have your cake and eat it too" in regards to WAR.

This is something that I first remember seeing the seed of back in 2.1. In 2.0 WAR was designed as the "big-damage meat tank" but unfortunately it was far too lacking in defense which made it not really viable, so justifiably the devs reworked WAR to make them sturdier and stronger in defense with 2.1. The problem though was that they kept WAR's damage capabilities intact and didn't trim them to compensate for the boost in defense that they got, which made them arguably just as good defensively as PLD but also able to do noticeably more damage too if played well.
I still remember when I pointed this out way back then being told "that's the way it should be" and "WAR should be better because it is the tank for skilled players while PLD is the easy tank".

From that point on it has been just a slow rolling snowball effect where WAR couldn't really be worse than the other tanks in any aspects or else it was completely unfair and not balanced, yet if they were discernibly better in any aspect that was justified "because...". The ball keeps rolling and more just keeps getting packed on while little to nothing is lost in the process and the ball grows and grows.

Fast forward a few years and well we see where we have ended up, where WAR has to be the big damage tank with just as good defense that also needs good party utility but can't be too hard or complicated to play. The all singing, all dancing Fell-Cleavers of the world.

Don't get me wrong, I like WAR a lot and switched to it as my main from DRK with Stormblood, but seriously it's getting beyond ridiculous at this point.

I'll keep repeating myself until SE listens.
Warriors stay OP by whining so maybe if i whine enough DRK will be better than literally hurting your group.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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I actually agree. There really is no justification for them having lots of damage tankiness and utility. I like DRK but lets be honest, why does the damage tank get more of everything then DRk, who can't seem to get to win in any area. PLD's must have the most patience. because WAR have been spitting in their face since 2.1.

Yet they adjust WAR while tons of classes need "real" adjustments, I mean I like the Monk Buffs, mainly just Perfect Balance being set to where it "should have been" in 2.0. They still try to make Tackle mastery a thing... ya not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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This so much. I like WAR but FUUCK the community sometimes. The tank is never "complete". Before 4.2 "AHHHHHHH THE CLASS IS RUINED" after 4.2 " Ah the class is OP". It's a fun class but good lord it has pretty much everything at this point. Best CD, best pull, best aoe, best invuln, best damage, best utility( yes PLD has more, but you can use SiO more frequently). Back then, you could argue that it's ok since it had a higher skill ceiling, but thanks to 4.2 its more BRAINDEAD than PLD( and I'd argue DRK cause at least DRK has to watch MP and manage CDs).

I understand 4.0 complaints, I understand the complaint when the rotation was extremely strict, and it needed a bit of easing up. Hell, I approve of fusing inner release and zerk, and making WAR damage consistently higher. But why should WAR be the tank with no flaw? PLD has flaws, DRK has flaws; WAR doesn't.

There's 3.X WAR, and we thought that was god-like. Now we have the new diety; 4.X WAR. With PLD as the "you're only here cause double WAR causes a LB penalty in Savage" tank, and DRK being the new "3.X PLD".