The Storm's Eye nerf and loss of Berserk are the major problems

Nothing else matters next to this. Taken together, someone could look at all the potency increases and think "hey, those are some all around buffs for WAR" but the truth is, the loss of 10% damage on SE means none of those potency buffs are actual increases to damage. At best you're looking at a loss of ~.7% damage (this is on Overpower) and at worst it's a loss of over 7% damage (this is on Fell Cleave). This is on top of the 10% over-the-fight damage loss from no longer having Berserk.

Yes, we probably get more Fell Cleaves and beast gauge in general from the new IR. This will not make up for the loss in damage from Berserk and SE however, because beast gauge and potency increases aside, we are still losing out on auto attack damage. AA damage accounts for anywhere from 15-20% of our total damage in a fight, so a 10% loss in AA damage is a flat 1.5-2% loss to overall dps. FC raw damage will be down by about 7% total, but some of that (likely not all of it) will be made up with a greater number of Fell Cleaves. Every other non-FC GCD will see a damage loss.

The new Berserk/IR also screws with stat weights. STR on the right side will still be better, but it's relative value is lower compared to when Berserk was a 30% increase in damage. Tying our damage boost to DH and crit stats means to get the most out of IR/Zerk we would need to stack the relevant stats. Well, if we want DPS we already (mostly) stack DH/crit on the left side, and STR reigns supreme on the right. That won't change, but each point of STR now means less because our damage buff is based on crit/DH instead of raw attack power. In short, it's another nerf to toss on the pile.

Finally, some people have noted that you can now use IR in Defiance, and cited this as a reasonable exchange. I disagree; the meta of the game, as SE has built it, is focused around damage. Every single fight of note in SB has an enrage timer, and in some cases multiple DPS checks above and beyond just the rage timer. Whether it's adds in OS3, Shinryu's heart, Susano's rocks, Lakshmi's enrage or [insert any other extreme/savage fight here] there is some kind of dps check/enrage timer in play. Defiance, as a result of the SE nerf, now has even less damage than it did before. This is on top of the absolute loss of damage from Berserk.

Early estimates are showing ~5% dps loss for WAR overall, and I'm inclined to agree with that. But more than that, the "feel" will be changed. The class is no longer about a modicum of planning out your beast gauge usage. You just press button and receive damage. That's boring. It's also less effective than it is now, meaning the "dps" rotation for WAR is no longer about any kind of reward for the planning you do around your gauge. It's the beginning of an invalidation of the entire beast gauge system, and it's patently unfun. Yes, I know I haven't tried the changes myself, but I have played games where a similar mechanic exists, and they are boring. There's no reward for playing well. I like being rewarded for playing well, and knowing that when I screw up there's room for improvement, and the new Inner Release removes any sense of accomplishment from doing things "right."

I can't make any suggestions about what to do in regards to this, cause right now my head is still full of f*ck. But I can say that the SE/Berserk/IR changes altogether make the class worse off than it is now.

Already responded to the number side in the previous thread so i wont repeat the long version. War is not facing a flat 5% loss. Burst windows are very much a side grade to now even accounting for potence/eye changes. You are hugely underestimating the impact of an additional 2+FC/min in negating the 5% non-burst downtime DPS. War will be +- 1-2% where it is now in deliverance and significant gains while stance dancing because you can actually use unchained now.

Style/Fun is bleh.

However the actual effectiveness of deliverance war is largely a sidegrade overall while being much easier to exectue. Effectiveness has gone up in stance dance or full time defiance mode significantly.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Style/Fun is bleh.

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Speak for yourself.

I read what you wrote in the other thread. It doesn't account for the flat loss in AA dps from the Storm's Eye nerf. That alone is 1.5-2% loss overall. It can't be said any other way, this is a loss in DPS thanks to the SE change. That alone would be a big enough loss, but compounded with Berserk loss and the IR change it's an overall across-the-board lowering of our damage. Any increased number of FC's/IB's are more than offset by the lower raw damage of everything we do.

PLD is losing 1.7% and Drk is gaining .6% dps. Despite the nerfs, WAR will still outdps both other tanks, now even more so in actual non dummy fights since its burst window will not only be shorter but require less build up. This was an overall tank nerf to keep tanks from being too strong.

The 5% damage reduction on WAR does NOT take into account all the additional 520 pot fell cleaves WAR will get. Not only does IR window no longer cost gauge but youll be able to infuriate on CD. Onslaught will be practically useless unless gap closing now so you can use even more FC. And with every FC you lower the CD on inf which is basically another fc.

It will be weaker but so will PLD so...it won't change the power balance. For number examples: A meta O1S run I did 4100 dps & my war mt did 4300, both 99% of respective jobs.Take off 1.7% from me and you get 4041 dps. Take off 5%(absolute worse case scenario loss not including fcs gained) from WAR and you get 4085. WAR is still stronger.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

PLD is losing 1.7% and Drk is gaining .6% dps. Despite the nerfs, WAR will still outdps both other tanks, now even more so in actual non dummy fights since its burst window will not only be shorter but require less build up. This was an overall tank nerf to keep tanks from being too strong.

The 5% damage reduction on WAR does NOT take into account all the additional 520 pot fell cleaves WAR will get. Not only does IR window no longer cost gauge but youll be able to infuriate on CD. Onslaught will be practically useless unless gap closing now so you can use even more FC. And with every FC you lower the CD on inf which is basically another fc.

It will be weaker but so will PLD so...it won't change the power balance. For number examples: A meta O1S run I did 4100 dps & my war mt did 4300, both 99% of respective jobs.Take off 1.7% from me and you get 4041 dps. Take off 5%(absolute worse case scenario loss not including fcs gained) from WAR and you get 4085. WAR is still stronger.

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First: this isn't about PLD or DRK. They have their own things (and problems) separate from WAR. I have all three classes at 70 and play them regularly, and I'd like to see all of them equally viable.

Second: yes, the -5% does take into account the increased potency on all skills. The fact that the potency is increased does NOT account for the overall loss of damage from the 10% nerf on SE. That nerf alone is responsible for the brunt of our lost damage, and the potency gains we get do not outweigh the loss of damage from the SE nerf. I would rather see PLD and DRK buffed to be made on par with WAR (PLD was already there, trading some dmg for great utility, while DRK needs both power and utility) than to see WAR "brought down" like they are doing now. Given that the meta of the game, as designed by SE, continues to focus on pumping out as much damage from each class as possible, lowering damage is not a good thing to do. I would love to spend more time in Defiance, actually tanking in my tank stance, but the nature of the game forbids that from being successful.

SE needs to decide on the direction they want. Enforcing "higher dps" as a means of progression and then nerfing class damage for "balance" is the epitome of one step forward one step back.

It's almost like they want the damage checks in fights to be done by *gasp* the damage dealers!

War DPS was too high compared to the other tanks, they have now been brought in line, it's as simple as that. They cant just keep buffing the lower tanks to meet the top tank as well, since that results in the gap between tanks and real DPS being too small. On top of that, as an actual tank and not a roidhead DPSDPSDPSDPSDPSDPSDPSDPS warrior, you guys got a MASSIVE buff.

Remember, at the end of the day, you are still a tank, not a DPS. Stop pretending to be something you clearly are not meant to be. It's outright toxic for the raid scene.

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

This BS again.

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Look, don't get mad at the players for adapting to the game. I'd *love* to actually spend more time in tank stance than in DPS stance. But the nature of the game discourages that. Everyone is encouraged to eke out as much DPS as possible in order to meet the checks. That's how you succeed. Being a "dps" class has nothing to do with it. Everyone needs to maximize DPS. This is a problem for healing classes as well. If you don't need to be healing, you should be DPSing. Until something fundamental changes in the game, that's the reality we have to work with. Yet, at the same time, SE is making any adjustment to the reality that they have created harder when they roll out changes like this.

Furthermore, they haven't even nerfed what is widely considered to be some of the stronger parts of the WAR kit. WAR still has superior cooldowns to DRK, and is at least on par with most of PLD's kit. All indicators point to SE having a case of the left not knowing what the right is doing.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Illogical strawman argument

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Congratulations, you got your wish. You are now able to spend more time in tank stance! (hell, it looks outright encouraged, have people even considered how much stronger tank stance is going to be now with the spammed inner beast or steel cyclone? literal 10 seconds of being unkillable in almost every fight in the game)

Also, no, you are not encouraged to do so as a tank. As Yoshi said, all fights are tuned with the MT in tank stance 100% of the time and varying levels up tank stance uptime for the offtank. This whole YOU MUST PUSH OUT MAX DPS thing is a side effect of the american community and their exceptionally strong lust for efficiency and speed. It is the community who started the entire thing, not the devs, and now the community is up in arms when the devs change it up.

Also, nice strawman there with the "wut about" at the end.

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

Congratulations, you got your wish. You are now able to spend more time in tank stance! (hell, it looks outright encouraged, have people even considered how much stronger tank stance is going to be now with the spammed inner beast or steel cyclone? literal 10 seconds of being unkillable in almost every fight in the game)

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Stronger how? Yeah we can use a lot of IB's or SC's to self-heal, but 6x IB at best will be 60-70% of our life. While that's certainly significant, it's also something that should be avoided. If you're in a situation where you would need to, as a tank, heal 60-70% of your life, then the shit has already hit the fan and you're just delaying the inevitable. More than that, Defiance WAR deals even less damage now. The SE nerf means instead of ~90% of our non-Defiance damage, we're dealing ~82.5% of our non-defiance damage. None of the potency increases we are getting make up for that loss, and this is on top of the damage we lose from no longer having Berserk as a separate skill.

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Also, no, you are not encouraged to do so as a tank. As Yoshi said, all fights are tuned with the MT in tank stance 100% of the time and varying levels up tank stance uptime for the offtank. This whole YOU MUST PUSH OUT MAX DPS thing is a side effect of the american community and their exceptionally strong lust for efficiency and speed. It is the community who started the entire thing, not the devs, and now the community is up in arms when the devs change it up.

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Sure, you say we're not encouraged, and even SE comes out and says "hey, this isn't how we want things to be" but then they go and do exactly the opposite of what they say. They encourage maximum DPS as a means of progressing through game content. Everything is about killing stuff. Even class/job quests are about killing things. I do beastman dailies on my SAM because, if I have to kill anything, it's going to be much faster than on my WAR. There hasn't been anything in this game for a long time that has rewarded solid tanking power outside of progression. I use Defiance when I'm learning a fight. Once I've got the fight down, it's a matter of spending as much time in Deliverance in order to beat the fight faster (and, in some cases, help beat the enrage). Yeah yeah, DPS should be better. That doens't mean players who enjoy tanks should suffer. Give me a fight where staying in tank stance is something that's needed and I'll happily do it. But if it's a choice between what someone says and what someone does, I'll trust what they do over what they say. SE can talk a big game about how things "should" be, but the content they put out speaks far louder than any live letter or interview ever could. They make DPS checks and they put enrage timers in, and if you want to beat the fight you need to beat those. This means the highest chance of success (i.e. progressing through the provided content) hinges on increasing damage for the entire raid.

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Also, nice strawman there with the "wut about" at the end.

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Huh?

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

PLD is losing 1.7% and Drk is gaining .6% dps.

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For DRK it might be floored, and thus drops to 0. :P

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

War DPS was too high compared to the other tanks, they have now been brought in line, it's as simple as that.

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No it wasn't. Tank damage is currently extremely close among the 3 jobs. The only difference is Warrior damage is more unstable, given that you can get lucky and land 4 Direct Critical Hits, which will put you almost as high (if not sometimes higher) than the damage some of the DPS is doing. OR you can not hit ANY critical hits OR direct hits, and end up doing garbage damage compared to what the other tank (Paladin OR Dark Knight) managed to do. But on average, your damage will even out to just a LITTLE bit higher than the other two tanks. This amount is so insignificantly small, it's not even worth fussing about. Especially when you take the instability I mentioned into account.

As for the thread, with the changes next week, it still remains to be seen if Warrior damage will go up or down. We can theory-craft all we want, but personally I think it's pointless until we actually see it in action. Keep in mind you're getting one extra Fell Cleave and FOUR of them (not to mention your Upheaval) will be guaranteed to deal the highest damage they can possibly do. That could possibly account for the lost auto-attack damage due to the Storm's Eye buff. One thing is for sure, though - no more will Warriors rely on extremely lucky runs to get 99 percentile parses. lol

BTW, something I don't think anyone's mentioning - Warriors are gonna be beast-mode in dungeons now. SEVEN STEEL CYCLONES LMAO monsters are gonna get utterly destroyed. I kinda feel it's a little too good to be true and because of that they're probably gonna end up nerfing more than just the healing on Steel Cyclone.

Sat down. Plotted out every single GCD and OGCD in a in both current and 4.2 war for an entire cycle (90 sec for 4.2, 120 for current). Accounted for AAs. Accounted for enhanced infuriate. Zerk/IR buffs. 10% and 20% maims. Old potency vs new potency.

Ill probably write up a detailed post tomorrow to explain the process cuz screw that at 5am.

TLDR:

4.1 Current war Pot/GCD rotation
519.58 potency per GCD

4.2 war doing the same process
536.46 per gcd.

Net buff of 3.2%.

There are very minor factors I did not account for. For starters:
*My 4.2 rotation is not quite optimized. I ended up stuck on a heavy swing before the next IR window which breaks the combo. Also got stuck with an awkward amount of gauge so had to use 1 onslaught and still had a leftover 10 gauge. Playing with the SS amount and such will improve it. It can only go up from here.
*The 4.1 zerk/IR windows dont have crit included as I just measured pot/time, but thats a fairly simple addition i might do after some sleep, but its not going to buff an entire 2 min rotation by some ridiculous amount like 10% to upend the results.

Its a fudging buff. A small one. Just like SE said it was.

I could be a smidge off here or there, but were still in the realm of side grade territory even if I fudged something up a little. Comfortably out of sky is falling land. Sleep then double check stuff.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

math

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Would you mind sharing a document of your calculations? Not asking this because I doubt you but just because I'm interested.

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Originally Posted by Skos

Would you mind sharing a document of your calculations? Not asking this because I doubt you but just because I'm interested.

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Its not exactly pretty, but ill definitely post more info on my stuff sat or sunday depending on time. I dont expect the whole of the internet to just believe some 'final' numbers in a forum post without some showing some of my work.

The problem with calculating damage increases is that you have to consider so much RNG that it becomes practically pointless. Are you going to compare average Warrior damage? Or highest possible damage? Because depending with what you go, you're either going to end up with a buff or a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Its not exactly pretty, but ill definitely post more info on my stuff sat or sunday depending on time. I dont expect the whole of the internet to just believe some 'final' numbers in a forum post without some showing some of my work.

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I await that as well. I'd be happy if what you say is true, but I don't buy it simply on the basis of the AA nerf. Best case scenario we're only losing ~10% of our AA damage, but that's still ~2-3% of our overall damage, not to mention a net overall damage loss due to the reduction from SE. While it's possible that the sheer number of increased Fell Cleaves could make that up, I'm still skeptical.

Dude DRK also used to be a VERY rewarding and satisfying job to play in HW, but already was made brain-dead months ago in 4.0. WAR just got hit later than DRK .-.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

TLDR:

4.1 Current war Pot/GCD rotation
519.58 potency per GCD

4.2 war doing the same process
536.46 per gcd.

Net buff of 3.2%.

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That's similar to what Emiin on the Balance discord said as well

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Current results, still under development

3.2% buff at 2.35 GCD, if you can get 5th GCD Inner Release.
8% nerf if you fail.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's similar to what Emiin on the Balance discord said as well

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I keep hearing about the the various theorycraft discords but always say some other time. Maybe i should look into those. But either way nice to have some independent corroboration so i know i didnt royally screw something up.

Im getting the 5th GCD with a 2.4 GCD at 60 ping.

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Originally Posted by Felorr

Im getting the 5th GCD with a 2.4 GCD at 60 ping.

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Does that count the ani lock on IR?