It's about time the GMs or devs respond to the RMT going on in the PF

https://imgur.com/a/aDYrT

Are there any plans to add a blacklist feature that works, or are there any plans to prohibit such listings?

Yes thos RMT alright since they asking for actual money no Gil.....
I'm pretty sure they probably no plan lol

While that might be rather blatant of them, nothing in game mentions rmt and selling runs for gil is not against the ToS. Short of going undercover and busting the advertising account if it pans out to rmt, there's not much they can do.

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

While that might be rather blatant of them, nothing in game mentions rmt and selling runs for gil is not against the ToS. Short of going undercover and busting the advertising account if it pans out to rmt, there's not much they can do.

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So the average gil sellers can also post listings as long as they don't say 'buy gil'? What if someone posts a site to buy gil from, but it's the official forums or the Lodestone?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't anything that is not bought directly from SE/SE merchandise concerning the game considered RMT? Pretty sure SE isn't happy about any of it, no matter what the perceived goal in-game is. Buying and selling services with gil is kosher, but it starts to go against the ToS when real world money comes into play.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

So the average gil sellers can also post listings as long as they don't say 'buy gil'? What if someone posts a site to buy gil from, but it's the official forums or the Lodestone?

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It would depend on the site it leads to:

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2.2 Real Money Trading, Farming and Power-Leveling. You may not sell, purchase or exchange for real-world money or value any in-game currency, accounts, characters, in-game services, or in-game virtual items. You may not play the Game for the purpose of acquiring virtual items or advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party or for the purpose of selling any virtual assets to a third party for real-world money, specifically including "gold-farming" and power-leveling services.

2.3 Commercial Use. You may not exploit the Game for any commercial purpose (for example, advertising any product or service in-game, or use by the operator of a cyber café) without Square Enix's prior written consent.

2.8 Commercial Spamming/Spimming. You may not use (or abuse) the in-game chat and message services to distribute advertisements.

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A GM would have to sign in to a discord server and they're not likely to do that. If the person above linked directly to that first picture in their PF advert, you can bet a gm would take issue with it.

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Originally Posted by Sekkei

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't anything that is not bought directly from SE/SE merchandise concerning the game considered RMT? Pretty sure SE isn't happy about any of it, no matter what the perceived goal in-game is. Buying and selling services with gil is kosher, but it starts to go against the ToS when real world money comes into play.

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It is, but the GMs work within a ruleset that you or I don't. For the most part unless it's directly advertised (link goes directly to rmt advertisment or they just outright make a blatant "this is rmt" pf) then the gms don't have proof they can link to the account in question and take action. Maybe the Special Task Force isn't so tied down, but good luck waving them down.

Did you get the USD advert from the PF in the second link? If so, as someone who sold a huge amount of stuff throughout ARR and HW, it's rather depressing that it's come to this.

Obligatory devil's advocate though, if the two links are not related, then it's not really fair to cry RMT at that PF group or indeed others. I'd like to think that the majority of sales groups aren't comfortable taking real monies for clears just yet. I certainly wasn't and most certainly wouldn't be now either.

My Lala is worth more to me than some PayPal pennies <3

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Originally Posted by Sekkei

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't anything that is not bought directly from SE/SE merchandise concerning the game considered RMT? Pretty sure SE isn't happy about any of it, no matter what the perceived goal in-game is. Buying and selling services with gil is kosher, but it starts to go against the ToS when real world money comes into play.

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It's not just services. The same groups also sell gil.

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

A GM would have to sign in to a discord server and they're not likely to do that.

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No. They would only have to do that if they wanted absolute proof of RMT in order to issue bans to specific parties. They don't need to do that to prohibit the listings from being made.

I noticed the paypal thing in the first link.


Let the banhammers fly.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

No. They would only have to do that if they wanted absolute proof of RMT in order to issue bans to specific parties. They don't need to do that to prohibit the listings from being made.

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Per SE's own policies, yes, they do. This is why they won't accept youtube or twitch clips as evidence for speed hacking. Unless that first advert was linked in-game, the GMs won't do anything.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Per SE's own policies, yes, they do. This is why they won't accept youtube or twitch clips as evidence for speed hacking. Unless that first advert was linked in-game, the GMs won't do anything.

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What hes saying is they don't have to log into a discord to make a rule prohibiting people from making "Please contact me on discord for pricing" party finder listings.

Make it so people can't use the game to advertise at all.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

It's not just services. The same groups also sell gil.


No. They would only have to do that if they wanted absolute proof of RMT in order to issue bans to specific parties. They don't need to do that to prohibit the listings from being made.

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They need that proof, otherwise they can't punish.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

They need that proof, otherwise they can't punish.

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They can prohibit people from using the game to advertise something where you would have to contact them outside the game for details.

You know the oddest thing about PF? They allow single player only slot and max ilevel beyond the game's max ilevel. If this is restricted, I'm sure GM can join and ban all form of selling/buying outside MB as soon report is made. Selling runs using gils with Cross Server Party doesn't make any sense. You would have to transfer the gils too between servers, that counts as real money.

Of course doesn't stop anyone renaming their retainers "BuyCheapDiscord4324", but it's a start.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

https://imgur.com/a/lflq2
https://imgur.com/a/lflq2
https://imgur.com/a/1tDoD
https://imgur.com/a/1tDoD

Are there any plans to add a blacklist feature that works, or are there any plans to prohibit such listings?

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I'm wondering what your browser history looks like.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I noticed the paypal thing in the first link.
Let the banhammers fly.

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That won't solve anything. The sellers will just use other accounts and not be as obvious.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

What hes saying is they don't have to log into a discord to make a rule prohibiting people from making "Please contact me on discord for pricing" party finder listings.

Make it so people can't use the game to advertise at all.

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This.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They can prohibit people from using the game to advertise something where you would have to contact them outside the game for details.

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This too.

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Originally Posted by Anienai

I'm wondering what your browser history looks like.

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The image is the first or second result on Google when you search the discord info. To say it took 5 seconds to find would be an overstatement if anything. Literally the only way for it to be more obvious was if they posted the site or said 'we accept Paypal' in the pf.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They can prohibit people from using the game to advertise something where you would have to contact them outside the game for details.

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That's not against rules.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

That's not against rules.

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But they could MAKE it against the rules. All it does is allow people to advertise RMT in game without explicitly saying so.

Why else wouldn't they ask for a tell in game about pricing if its not real money?

They can just make advertising for an in game service while asking to be contacted outside the game for info/pricing against the rules, since that's totally not fishy at all in terms of RMT.

If exploiting the game for "commercial use" is against the ToS, they'd have a legal grounds to take action against the people/companies who make the botting programs in the first place, because a lot of them are paid services.

Pity it's unlikely they'd ever be willing to go through the trouble.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...2&tag=users_en

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2.2 Real Money Trading, Farming and Power-Leveling. You may not sell, purchase or exchange for real-world money or value any in-game currency, accounts, characters, in-game services, or in-game virtual items. You may not play the Game for the purpose of acquiring virtual items or advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party or for the purpose of selling any virtual assets to a third party for real-world money, specifically including "gold-farming" and power-leveling services.

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The ad says payment is through paypal using USD. Clear as day that this isn't allowed. Did you make a report?

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Originally Posted by SecretCrowds

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...2&tag=users_en

The ad says payment is through paypal using USD. Clear as day that this isn't allowed. Did you make a report?

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If they posted a link to that ad anywhere in game I would hope so, but the only thing in game that was listed from the original post was discord info. While it may match, the GMs have no way to verify that the same account posted that image, anyone could have made it to frame people. The only thing the GMs can absolutely verify is the resources they control in game (chat logs and such).

It's so 50/50 on if it get any action at all or not.

Someone in a fit of losing an argument reported my friend for RMT activity and she got a 3 day suspension so they could "investigate" the report. But other times it feels like they just ignore the obvious paypal parties in the finder.

There really isn't anything against selling runs (unless it's for real money) although that already happens. I suggested they add a recruitment tab to PF at least these things won't clog up the actual sections for runs. Also any person selling Ultimate Bahamut is gonna be asking for real money since they will most likely ask for access to your account to take your character through it because 7 people can't carry through that fight so it would be idiotic to even consider that.

But selling runs is totally unrelated with RMT, right guys>

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

But selling runs is totally unrelated with RMT, right guys>

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Isn't this just as bad as saying everyone who parses is an elitist?

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

But selling runs is totally unrelated with RMT, right guys>

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Just as related as expensive items (rare drops, endgame crafts) on the marketboard are, I'd say?
The product or service purchased with gil isnt the problem - if the gil came from non-legit means, thats the problem.

I've gotten the impression that the argument "run selling is promoting RMT" is most often used by people who dont like run selling...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Just as related as expensive items (rare drops, endgame crafts) on the marketboard are, I'd say?
The product or service purchased with gil isnt the problem - if the gil game from non-legit means, thats the problem.

I've gotten the impression that the argument "run selling is promoting RMT" is most often used by people who dont like run selling...

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Yes, but how likely is it that someone with 1 level 70 and no crafters or gatherers is going to have 100+mil for run purchases by legitimate means. And any content sales that require paypal ARE RMT. You could even argue that people are making the game P2W

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yes, but how likely is it that someone with 1 level 70 and no crafters or gatherers is going to have 100+mil for run purchases by legitimate means. And any content sales that require paypal ARE RMT. You could even argue that people are making the game P2W

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Well, how likely is it that such a person has 15 millions to purchase some of the new glamour-gear we got with the last patch? (At least its 15-25 millions for that gear on my server atm)
Or 20 million for the Black Pegasus? Or 50 million for the Shiba-pet (I saw some getting sold for that amount - it has since dropped to the more reasonable but still high price of 4-5 mil)?

I'm not arguing that the current trend of selling runs for real money isnt wrong and worrying - however legit run sells (aka: sells purchased by gil or, for all I care, other trade-offs ingame using ingame currency/means) shouldnt be blamed and blanted statments like "Run selling is (always) RMT or promotes RMT" dont sit right with me. Because you can argue that expensive items on the marketboard promote RMT just as much as run sells do since no one without level 70 crafters can possibly have the gil to pay for those things.

You can argue, but you'd be wrong. There isn't a "trade for service" function in the game, those are player-made agreements.
The only situation where I've seen GMs intervene in such agreements is when it comes to crafting comissions (when the provider refuses to deliver / scams the client).

It doesn't apply to run-selling - if the game was intended to be played like that, there'd be a bot players could pay X amount of gil to have content completed / earn rewards.
And! There are such similar systems in place already (like trading the weekly alliance raid reward for upgrade parts). The very reason they added savage on the side was so players could experience the story, while others get to participate in more difficult content. What's the purpose of that when you're allowing people to skip that as well?


This is coming from someone who doesn't even do high-tier raiding (or who does so very rarely). I'm not even a part of the players that bust their nuts getting good at the game and completing really difficult content - and even I can see this is a blatant misuse of the system.

But even then, I can stay quiet (even if I don't like it), except groups are now selling this content for actual money.
And even -if- you wanted to do the whole argument of "what about glamour!" well, just because you can find more forms of RMT it doesn't make this particular activity any less dirty (or less guilty). Because it is. And the only reason it bothers you is because this is your source of gil.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I'm not arguing that the current trend of selling runs for real money isnt wrong and worrying - however legit run sells (aka: sells purchased by gil or, for all I care, other trade-offs ingame using ingame currency/means) shouldnt be blamed and blanted statments like "Run selling is (always) RMT or promotes RMT" dont sit right with me. Because you can argue that expensive items on the marketboard promote RMT just as much as run sells do since no one without level 70 crafters can possibly have the gil to pay for those things.

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yes, expenisve items on the market board promote RMT. housing promotes RMT. and kill sellers promote RMT.

just because there is more than kill selling wich promotes RMT, doesn't make kill selling (for gil) any better in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

You can argue, but you'd be wrong. There isn't a "trade for service" function in the game, those are player-made agreements.
The only situation where I've seen GMs intervene in such agreements is when it comes to crafting comissions (when the provider refuses to deliver / scams the client).

It doesn't apply to run-selling - if the game was intended to be played like that, there'd be a bot players could pay X amount of gil to have content completed / earn rewards.
And! There are such similar systems in place already (like trading the weekly alliance raid reward for upgrade parts). The very reason they added savage on the side was so players could experience the story, while others get to participate in more difficult content. What's the purpose of that when you're allowing people to skip that as well?

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So, the game was supposed to be played by having someone else level your crafters for you then? Because run-selling is pretty much excatly like leveling-kit-selling: Someone else does all the hard work, you just collect the reward withour understanding a thing. Why is that okay (as long as no one get scammed) but run-selling isnt?

If people want to skip that or dont want to take the challenge on themselves, thats their choice. No one is "allowing" them to skip that, they're finding a way for themselves to do so. If someone doesnt want that challenge and destroy it for themself: Let them. Why is it bothering you?

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

This is coming from someone who doesn't even do high-tier raiding (or who does so very rarely). I'm not even a part of the players that bust their nuts getting good at the game and completing really difficult content - and even I can see this is a blatant misuse of the system.

But even then, I can stay quiet (even if I don't like it), except groups are now selling this content for actual money.
And even -if- you wanted to do the whole argument of "what about glamour!" well, just because it's also scummy it doesn't make this particular activity any less dirty. Because it is. And the only reason it bothers you is because this is your source of gil.

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The real money thing is wrong, yes.

In game money only? Cant see the real problem with that.

Also... I'm a mastercrafter. My source of gil is selling endgame gear on the marketboard. I got involved in one T9 sell by accident once - someone had asked me to help out without mentioning it was a sell-run. I returned the gil to the buyer as soon as I got it.
I'm not a fan of run-selling, but I can see that raiders need/want to earn their gil just as much as crafters. And if someone doesnt want to achieve those clears by themself, who am I to judge?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I've gotten the impression that the argument "run selling is promoting RMT" is most often used by people who dont like run selling...

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https://imgur.com/a/i8NtK
https://imgur.com/a/v6qps

Again, the info was found within seconds of searching the discord info on Google. That same discord info was used in a pf listing advertising Unending coil sales across the data center with the duty being listed as Expert Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

In game money only? Cant see the real problem with that.

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Still?

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Still?

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I still don’t care about people buying clears of content with money they made legitimately. Why should I? Every challenge in this game is on a straight path to zero challenge. This doesn’t change that fact, never has, and it never will.

I can think of two reasons for wanting to maintain an out-of-game web page for such Pay-To-Win offerings. One, perfectly legit, is to ensure that everyone knows up front the cost for the content carry.

The other, totally against the TOS, is because the price is something other than an in-game currency.

That those PF ads are cross server strongly implies the latter reason is a factor, potentially moreso than the former reason. Put another way - there’s no reason to try to sell someone on a different server a content clear for Gil (or for items, lol) when there’s no in-game means of arranging payment.

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Originally Posted by Tint

yes, expenisve items on the market board promote RMT. housing promotes RMT. and kill sellers promote RMT.

just because there is more than kill selling wich promotes RMT, doesn't make kill selling (for gil) any better in that regard.

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It does however highlight how silly it is to witch hunt run selling when these other sources of rmt are generally accepted and ignored.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It does however highlight how silly it is to witch hunt run selling when these other sources of rmt are generally accepted and ignored.

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I guess their answer is to remove the marketboard, remove housing, Hell with it, remove all Currency from the game. Ban crafters and gatherers too since they have gil, and therefore, must be RMT.

/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Still?

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I saw the screenshots in your OP, dont worry.

But yes: I still dont see the problem with run selling for legit ingame earned gil.
I agree with this run selling for real money being a problem - but I wasnt arguing about that but rather against those who dont like run selling at all and are using scammy things like this as an excuse to ban run-selling at all. And thats something I do not agree with.
Again: I'm not a fan of it myself, I never bought a run and I never made gil from selling runs. But I can accept that even people who dont like gathering/crafting need a source of income and that run-selling is just as much a service as selling crafted goods or crafting-leveling-kits (something the person I argued against ironically considers perfectly legit and "working as intended" when one could say "There are no crafting-level-jump-potions on the mogstation, so that has to mean that the intended way to play is to level your crafters yourself")

All I wanna do here is to remind people that run selling for ingame currency is legitimate. You dont have to like it personally, neither do I. But it is something we have to tolerate and to claim that everyone who buys runs also buys the gil to pay for it, is wrong. The argument that run selling promotes RMT is just as right as saying that the Black Pegasus promotes RMT, yet no one argues about removing the Black Pegasus. Or argues to put a cap on item prices (as in: you cant sell item XY for more than 2 million gil) because we accept that its a free market. To me a service like run selling is just as much part of that free market - "But there isnt a 'market board' for run-selling, so it must be wrong!" - There isnt a 'market board' to recruit for FCs either. Or to offer your service als crafter. Or to find LS. Just because its something players organise themsel doesnt make it automatically wrong.

Again: I do not support run selling for real money.
However I do consider run selling for legit, ingame earned gil fine. Yes, still.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

<snip>

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Fair point...but you have one major flaw.

These guys are selling runs "cross-world"

Which leads to a list of questions...in-game currency transfer is not a thing...and even with whats there is VERY limited.
Same server/world? Ok you got me there..legit yes.
But these "ads" are cross-worlds.

Doesn't look liek they are selling it for real money. But they might do it on discord if the buyer inquire about it, since its outside of FF14 and GMs have no power. Its less worst than RMT spammer that blantly says 1m = 1.5$/2$ with their website.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Fair point...but you have one major flaw.

These guys are selling runs "cross-world"

Which leads to a list of questions...in-game currency transfer is not a thing...and even with whats there is VERY limited.
Same server/world? Ok you got me there..legit yes.
But these "ads" are cross-worlds.

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Oh yes, I know that thats raising a lot of questions - I've argued about this before and I agree with that.

Here is the point though: Unless there is 100% certainty that the answer to those questions involves RMT in some form, its difficult to do something about it. And yes, I've read the OP and know how easy it is to get this proof outside of the game but we all know that GMs cant use that outside-of-the-game-source. And yes, those run-sellers know that too and thats why they're using it. It is a problem, I agree. But the answer cant be to ban run-selling alltogether.
I also dont want the answer to be something like "you may not discuss ingame-matters outside of the game" or "you may not leave a discord info in a PF" because again, just like run-selling, both is widely used legtimate.

Its tricky and all I want to do here is to remind people that some of their easy solutions and obvious observations arent so easy.
For all we know those run selling groups can have alts on every sever they're conducting business and use those to collect the gil. Or the group itself is scattered and leaving it to luck who gets the earnings of their next sell. I dont know if those groups opperate like that, but those would be two answers to that questions aswell - I admit not as good an convincing as the involvment of real money in any form, but... 100% and such.

Back in 2.0 they banned some hardcore crafters who made their gil legtimate. But since they did nothing but crafting and even asked some friends to sell their crafted good on the market board they made a lot of gil - something that seemed suspecious enough to ban them even though they did nothing wrong.
I'm glad that they've gotten more careful since then.

The easy solution for us here is: RMT is already banned, so if you suspect someone using that - report them so the GMs can and will investigate. And if there is evidence lets all hope that they're doing their job.

But in the meantime... leave run-selling alone. You dont have to like it. Just ignore it (just like I ignore ugly Mi'qote in bikinis).