I know that this is a touchy subject, but what is with the mindset of everyone expecting tanks to do more dps? I got kicked out of a dungeon recently because I wasn't tanking in sword oath and because of that I wasn't doing enough dps to stay in the dungeon I guess. Yesterday, I was removed out of a hunt group killing A/S ranks because I was tanking in shield oath also. Why are tanks expected to tank in sword oath now for even the most casual content? Why are tanks in general expected to do "X dps"? Another thing, can I report people for harassing me for my status on FFXIV logs? Apparently I'm not "good enough to farm Shinryu" yet I have the dog and 9 of the weapons. All I want to do is tank a freaking dragon and have a shot at the scale but because FFXIV logs says I'm "Bad" I guess I cant. I feel like I cant even play the game anymore because of how toxic the community has become.
Tank dps harrasment
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11-14-2017, 07:47 AMHanniaTank dps harrasment
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11-14-2017, 07:48 AMHannia
To clarify when I ask "why are tanks expected to do "X DPS" I don't mean why cant I just spam a button to hold hate I mean why am I expected to do say 3.5k dps in a dungeon or I get kicked.
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11-14-2017, 08:00 AMHyoMinParkNobody really expects tanks to pull 3~3.5k DPS in dungeons. I can’t say I’ve ever encountered any individuals that advocate for tanks to tank things in their DPS stances when in dungeons or “easy mode” 8-mans/trials, or even 24-mans. And I’m closing in on the 5,000 instanced raids/duties achievement (so I’ve done A LOT of content). Because rDPS, in those instances, typically doesn’t matter, because a lot of the bosses don’t even have enrages, so there’s no need to pull 99th percentile numbers in Skalla (there are exceptions with some of the 24-man bosses though, and the 8-man bosses do have enrages, though the check is way more lenient than in Savage/Ex).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
Only in Savage and Ex trials will you find people pushing for tanks to really drop their stance, and focus on contributing to the rDPS. But, again, I’ve rarely encountered anyone who tells the MT to drop their stance and start tanking in DPS stance. It’s anecdotal, of course, but I really cannot recall ever seeing anyone complain about this outside of a static setting. In those settings, it comes from the group wanting everyone to put forth as much effort as they can to kill the boss faster, meet checks, and/or push their jobs to the limit.
Personally speaking, I don’t tank much, but when I do, I drop stance. Because there isn’t much reason outside of mass pulls in dungeons to have your stance on—purely because the bosses typically don’t hit hard enough to warrant it. Proper management of your enmity, the DPS’ enmity, and proper provoke/shirking from your co-tank provide that you should never lose aggro, so why not throw out some extra damage while you’re at it? I don’t expect every tank to do it, and, again, I rarely see other people call out other tanks for “tanking in Shield” or “tanking in Defiance” the “entire time” of a raid.
Most hardcore raiders really don’t care what tanks do in dungeons or even 8-mans or 24-mans. They only care about what the tanks in their statics do. Sure, there are twats out there that consider themselves “hardcore”, but I feel like most serious raiders really don’t care. -
11-14-2017, 08:03 AMBigRed5392
it stems from alex gordias, if people are saying "kick cuz numbers said you suck" you can report it as vote kick abuse as they are miss-using their parser. I personally rather tank be in tank stance, its the dps's job to deal the dps.
If you are skilled and able to tank in sword oath, more power to you. I fully understand your plight, my g/f is a tank and no matter what she gets harassed. :/ She doesn't bother anyone, and tries her best to work with her group.
idk why ppl want tanks in dps in shinryu, he does a lot of tank busters/unavoidable damage in normal.. can't imagine shin ex -
11-14-2017, 08:10 AMElspath
Sounds like the same group of people that expected Healers to DPS because.... of reasons?
If the dungeon is finished with no one dying and you never loose hate then a tank has done there job, to hell with those thinking anything. Espeshelly dpsers who will never tank because they dont get there number high -laughs-
I am a full time Main tank and Healer. I will block anyone that starts complaining saying im not doing enough dps on either. They can go find another group and go back waiting in there long ass Q -
11-14-2017, 08:12 AMReinha
Aren't hunts enmity based? If so then you are correct in going tank stance and doing your enmity combo. Healers can also overheal.
You had an unlucky dungeon group, because most people understand that dungeons are a training ground for literally everything else. Perfection is not required. -
11-14-2017, 08:15 AMNintenPyjak64Ok this is pretty stupid. From my experience, enmity generation = contribution toward full credit. Generally a tank + healer spamming AoE heals for a bit can solidify full credit for your team. Personally I don't stay in tank stance the entire fight, but I stay in it long enough that I'm sure the team will get full creditQuote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
Yes. Absolutely. These are the types of people that create those who are vastly against parsers/parsing, and what created the dev's stance on parsers/parsing. They need to be punished. Harassment is still harassmentQuote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
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11-14-2017, 08:15 AMJunseiKei
That is when you report people for third party program use. No one knows your DPS numbers except those that use the program. Those that remove you for this are abusing it in a way that has been expressed as to why they don't want to even make an official version of it.
You only need numbers for fflogs and epeening. As long as you do your job and can clear the content, you don't need them. -
11-14-2017, 08:16 AMHanniaI feel like I should play the loto because I got these kinds of groups all weekend long. I don't know if it was because it was a holiday weekend or what but I feel so angry/discouraged as a tank right now.Quote:
You had an unlucky dungeon group, because most people understand that dungeons are a training ground for literally everything else. Perfection is not required.
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11-14-2017, 08:18 AMHazyAssaulterIt doesn't stem from anything but the idea that in extreme or Savage content, everyone should be aiming to contribute as much as they can. People set their own rules for play style when they make PF. If you get butthurt that somebody kicks you from a PF because they don't want to carry you, feel free to report them, but good luck having anything come of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
"DPS is just the DPS's responsibility" is the worst mindset to have. DPS is everyone's responsibility. If OP doesn't want to be discriminated against because of his fflogs rankings, he needs to git gud and improve them. -
11-14-2017, 08:19 AMHazyAssaulterTake that dissatisfaction and use it as motivation to improve yourself. The only person holding you back is you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
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11-14-2017, 08:21 AMBigRed5392count yourself lucky, my GF gets a lot of flack in content for not stance dancing as a drk and when she was a pld. She got a lot of harassment for every lil thing ppl felt she did wrong,Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
even though she was new to the content, and trying her best to work with her group.
Like i may have told you before, her first amdapor keep run, a healer felt the need to insult her for not speed pulling, even though my g/f stated her wasn't on par for it and it was her first time. (she said it was her first time at start as well) the healer reemed into about watching a video, which my gf replied she had no access to a pc, which the healer tried to retort with then use your smartphone, which my g/f said she had none (she didn't) which the healer tried to call her a liar, claiming she wants ti get carried.
whm ended up pulling for my g.f who was left not knowing what to do. :/ she just was running ak for the relic quest. -
11-14-2017, 08:21 AMHyoMinParkYou met a bunch of jerks, but I repeat what I said in my other post: I’m fairly confident in saying that the vast majority of players don’t care what you do in dungeons. Because they’re dungeons. So long as you aren’t losing aggro while IN tank stance, cleaving the party, or not using your mitigation, people rarely say anything. Because they don’t care what goes on in dungeons as long as things go smoothly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
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11-14-2017, 08:26 AMClicked
I would suggest dropping tank stance once you establish threat and take the first big hit from the bosses, but it’s definitely not necessary and doesn’t shave off THAT much time. Luckily tanks have short queues so just let them be someone else’s problem and queue for a better group.
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11-14-2017, 08:27 AMHazyAssaulterWhy should it be acceptable for people to have to carry you if you refuse to improve? Asking for a shin ex perspectiveQuote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
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11-14-2017, 08:29 AMHyoMinParkIt’s not, and people don’t care about performance in dungeons as long as you are doing what you are required to do: as a tank, hold hate, don’t cleave the party, and use your cooldowns. People that expect orange-tier DPS in dungeons are ridiculous. The content doesn’t call for any of that; it’s casual content. As long as the run goes smoothly and ends relatively quickly (sub-30 minutes I would say would be the general consensus for a “quick run” for a leveling dungeon, sub-20 for expert dungeons), no one cares about things like DPS in dungeons. The people that do aren’t worth listening to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
The only place where party or raid DPS matters is Ex trials and Savage. And even then, the checks aren’t tight enough to demand 99th percentile performance from everyone. As long as you are doing your best and contributing, that’s all that matters. Maybe some people get uppity about it, but they’re not the majority. I don’t like carrying players, but as long as the tanks are dying to stupid stuff and are holding hate, I generally don’t care if they drop stance or not. I certainly encourage it if they want to improve their personal DPS, or contribute more to rDPS, but I don’t make a big deal out of it if they don’t. There’s no reason to.
Only in statics would people probably push to tank the majority of a raid or trial in DPS stance. But PF =/= static. If you end up in a group that wants you to do stuff you don’t want to do, just leave and join another. Or make your own. Your PF, your rules. -
11-14-2017, 08:29 AMXerek
I posted this in another thread, but it fits here...
"Muh DPS!"
Sadly, this statement is what FF XIV is built around, regardless of role. Tanks running in DPS stance, refusing to swap back to tank stance when the aggro table gets iffy. Claiming the DPS should use aggro deflection, then if the DPS do, they claim the DPS should hold back. Then the 101 flammable threads about healers that don't DPS. And, of course, you get DPS who, even if they see their tank is struggling, refuse to give up even a single point of DPS to help. The job of the tank is to DPS hard, oh, and maybe manage aggro. The job of a healer is to DPS hard, oh, and heal a little. The job of the DPS is to DPS balls to the wall no matter what. That's the current mindset, and parsers are a large reason why. It's not about efficiency, party symmetry, or heaven forbid having fun. It's about having that high number on the parser.
Now, don't get me wrong, the game itself definately carries some blame. Why are raiders so focused on DPS? Because raids have enrage timers and your raid group needs to wring every last drop of DPS out like a moist dishrag in the desert or you'll likely wipe. And the game allows tanks and healers to do too much damage. If it were a case where tanks and healers could contribute a little DPS here and there, people wouldn't focus on it as much. But currently in XIV tanks and healers can put out so much damage that there is a notable drop-off when they don't. We're not talking about shaving a minute or two off a dungeon, we're talking several. If a nervous peasant has a dagger, I'm not going to be as frustrated if he doesn't use it, but if that same peasant has a handgun, I'm going to get cranky if he isn't opening fire, even if I have an automatic rifle.
FFXIV's design is such that it encourages this DPS above all mentality. Couple that with parsers and it's easy to see why this game's playerbase as a whole has adopted a DPS > All Else mindset. Of course there are exceptions. As a healer, I prioritize healing and weave in DPS where I can. As a tank, I will do everything in my power to regain lost aggro, including swapping back into tank stance if needed and sacrificing DPS. As a DPS I will use all my emnity flushes and even ease up on the DPS if the tank is honestly struggling. But I know the prevalent mindset doesn't match mine. Sadly, FF XIV would require a core philosophical shift to address this issue. Tank and healer damage would have to be slashed to levels that make it a nice, small bonus, not a signifigant contribution to total instance damage...which would immediately cause wailing, screaming, torches and pitchforks. So, sadly, I expect the "Muh DPS!" mindset to continue for quite some time. -
11-14-2017, 08:30 AMjameseoakesWhat's with the attitude Dio?Quote:
Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter
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11-14-2017, 08:31 AMHazyAssaulterFor the record, I specifically clarified savage and ex trials, if that's the reason you're saying my mindset isn't acceptableQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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11-14-2017, 08:32 AMHanniawhy are you assuming I'm being carried? I have cleared it MULTIPLE times with no deaths or failing ANY mechanic, I have a macro to mark everyone up and I put waypoints down in P3.... your judged me bassed off what? that's what I'm talking about just because my ffxivlogs (which once again I have no clue how I am even on it but only have 11 total events none are current) say I'm grey 7 on dps that means I'm being carried? if I'm not letting my party die, I'm doing tank swaps correct and not just flat out eating a tank buster with my face how is that being carried?Quote:
Why should it be acceptable for people to have to carry you if you refuse to improve? Asking for a shin ex perspective
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11-14-2017, 08:33 AMHazyAssaulterNo attitude, just literally telling it how it is. OP seems to think that everyone should adjust to his personal "play style," but if he wants to get far in extremes or Savage he needs a wake up callQuote:
Originally Posted by jameseoakes
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11-14-2017, 08:35 AMHyoMinParkI edited my post to clarify my position, because 1,000 arbitrary limit is arbitrary, but I don’t care if a tank drops stance or not in Ex trials or Savage. As long as they aren’t dying to stupid stuff, using their CDs, and holding hate, I don’t care what they do. Certainly, if they want to improve, I will advocate for them to drop stance, and for the OT to provoke/shirk off-cooldown, but in PF settings for these things, I don’t care.Quote:
Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter
Personally, I don’t tank often, but I drop stance because I dislike staying in Grit. But that’s my playstyle. I don’t enforce it on others because it’s not my place.
The only tanks I really advocate to drop stance are the ones in my static, because it’s my static. Not PF/DF/RF. -
11-14-2017, 08:35 AMHazyAssaulterIf you are parsing grey on fflogs, you are being carried by those in your party who are not. No assumptions being madeQuote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
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11-14-2017, 08:41 AMXerekThat's where people are objecting. The OP specifically mentioned dungeons and hunts, not EX or Savage, yet you replied as you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter
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11-14-2017, 08:42 AMHazyAssaulterI challenge you to find how many O4S clears there are with tanks staying in tank stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by jameseoakes
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11-14-2017, 08:44 AMHazyAssaulterThe OP implicitly mentions shin ex and his logs on themQuote:
Originally Posted by Xerek
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11-14-2017, 08:45 AMXerekSee prior comment, unless O4S is suddenly now a dungeon or hunt. I'm seeing a disturbing trend where raiders are using parsers and expecting raid quality performance outside of raid/ex content, which is elitist and outright silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter
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11-14-2017, 08:48 AMHazyAssaulterQuote:
Originally Posted by Xerek
/10charactersQuote:
Originally Posted by Hannia
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11-14-2017, 08:49 AMXerek
Rereading, do see EX mentioned. So, fflogs...that's the thing Yoshi-P specifically says not to use, and will not impliment in-game because it can lead to harassment, right? Because a member's contribution can be competely and accurately summed up solely in their DPS output and cannot in any way be situational?
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11-14-2017, 08:49 AMHannia
I found a way to fix this stupid problem with ffxivlogs after fidgeting with it I was able to hide my character on it. now i guess i can calm down.
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11-14-2017, 08:55 AMLewtskieSomeone getting carried is literally them being dragged along for the fight and not walking on their own two feet. A tank that mitigates what they need to and maintains control of the fight and its mechanics is doing what they need to do. That is the purpose of their roles and their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter
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11-14-2017, 09:16 AMEstelle9lives
Hannia, while the people certainly could have been nicer to you instead of outright kicking you out of duties, I have to say that if you're really getting grey numbers you're not contributting as much as you should.
Grey numbers means you're on the bottom 25% in terms of DPS out of all the people who played your job in that content, so it can be questioned that there's a lot of room for improvement in your play. On high-end duties such as ex trials people will EXPECT you to be able to do decent numbers, because DPS is a form of contribution that all roles can offer. Even if you hide your logs, as long as you don't work on improving, people will keep complaining about your DPS. You don't even need to go full on Sword Oath for starters, just try to minimize how many times you use your aggro combo and stick to your dps rotation and you will already be able to do acceptable damage.
That said I have no idea why people are kicking you out of dungeons or even worse, hunts. I never kick people for performance reasons on casual content unless they flat out play badly/lazily on purpose. -
11-14-2017, 09:19 AMMavrias
People are allowed to kick you out of their own parties (hunts/shinryu/savage groups). So the only thing you have a leg to stand on for is dungeon pugs, and even then, difference in playstyle is a thing.
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11-14-2017, 09:19 AMHazyAssaulterI'm getting a bit pedantic at this point, but grey is actually bottom 20%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelle9lives
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11-14-2017, 09:20 AMLilsephSorry for pointing this out, but I don't think it's "garbage" per se, it's just a different goal. Wether you agree or not, it's a different story. People like to push their jobs, because it extends their fun in-game, giving them an additional goal. "Did I clear X content? nice. Let's see how much I can optimize, push harder, and get better numbers". E-peen? Maybe. Fun? Perhaps. More things to do in-game? Not with the provided tools, but with the right ones: Yes. Also, I was pressed to do more DPS even back in FCOB for week-1 clears on my main character (Signature, thanks Hyomin for the template), so I don't think the tank DPS comes from Gordias, but before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
The encounters in this game resolve around DPS, with very extremely limited situations where heals do something (Shinryu X). Having both the tanks and the healers dealing extra DPS, not only speeds the process up and it's not that they can't clear if they don't push their numbers. It's matter of clearing faster, being optimal. Some people have that mindset and no condescending emotes (aka :) ) or derogatory remakrs will change that.
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As for the OP, it sucks that people kicked you out FROM A DUNGEON because of that. I am close to the 10k instances clear myself and I've never seen such thing to happen. You probably were paired with some try hard fellas there. If they mentioned any parser during your run or actual numbers, you can report them. However, this attitude will never change. Just warning you.
As a side note, it's extremely easy to swap/drop your tank stance. Do it at least once or twice as if it was an experiment and see how it goes. Just do your emnity combo once (if DA from DRK) or twice, or three times if needed, drop your stance and go ham on DPS combos. Go back to your tanking stance if you see the DPS are catching up aggro-wise. Bosses in instances barely do any damage, and with proper CD usage, you can get away with not using tank stance. I'm almost sure no one is expecting you to pull 3k+ DPS. It's not an unrealistic number at all, but it's dungeon content after all... -
11-14-2017, 09:22 AMHazyAssaulterIf it was an assumption, I'm sure OP would have corrected me, but it's not. Some might find it rude to give honest feedback, but I'd prefer someone to be straight up with me than censor themselves for the sake of my sensitivities.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
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11-14-2017, 09:23 AMBigRed5392we need more ppl like you, no rudeness, basic explanation and some suggestions. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelle9lives
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11-14-2017, 09:25 AMBigRed5392my doing :) is not me being rude, it was suggested i do that a while ago so people knew i wasn't being angry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilseph
Also the harass people over fflogs is gargabe. And against the tos. Which is what I was saying. -
11-14-2017, 09:25 AMHanniaI didn't really see a need to correct you being as I specifically stated I was kicked out of dungeons and hunts but if I needed to correct you here it is, I was kicked out of dungeons and hunt parties for "low dps". Also the shinryu ex thing I didn't even get to go into the fight they immediately looked at my logs and said "your ffxiv logs say your grey" and removed me from the group.Quote:
If it was an assumption, I'm sure OP would have corrected me
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11-14-2017, 09:27 AMBigRed5392actually they did ask you to stop. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter
And you are just harassing op over fflogs. Not once did you politely explain it, or offer tips. You just did "you bad and you should feel bad" which is just bullying.