Every single other service that I have ever paid for in my life would have been crediting my account long ago if there were such frequent interruptions in that service until the issue(s) were 100% resolved. I find it completely unacceptable that all we have gotten are apology blog posts and posts simply stating if the issue is currently ongoing or has stopped for the time being. We pay premium prices across the board for everything in this MMO from the base game and expansions, to subscription price, mog station items, and other physical merchandise. This has been an on and off issue now for five months.
My suggestion would be to please consider lowering the subscription prices if you can no longer guarantee the same level of server stability as pre-stormblood had.
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11-11-2017, 03:46 AMMandudezSo when does SE plan to credit our accounts for the multiple ongoing service issues?
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11-11-2017, 03:49 AMBacent
Or keep the sub the same, give everyone a retainer.
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11-11-2017, 03:52 AMArrius
Those issues are not on the fault of their side if you refer about the interruptions regarding the DDoS attack.
They could show a sign of goodwill and throw a us a bone about it, but they owe us nothing. -
11-11-2017, 03:55 AMTsumdere
This has been repeated ad nauseam - the server issues are not the FFXIV servers. It is their provider who is being hit with DDoS attacks.
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11-11-2017, 04:03 AMKisagami
I can see their point though. Many other games give small items in exchange for unexpected downtime. They could do something small like throw us some silver chocobo feathers or another form of compensation. Nothing too major, but something considering that it takes play time from people who may not be able to play a lot due to having a RL.
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11-11-2017, 04:09 AMkikix12Yes and no. It's not on their side as far as DDoS goes. They can only work to mitigate it, but it's not possible to completely deal with it, true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrius
However, it's entirely based on contract and law in whatever country the occurrence takes place. A paid service, if interrupted, may be obligated to compensate the person by it. For example, if your network won't work for 15 out of 30 days because a hurricane destroyed the cables, you don't need to pay for the 15 days that you did not have the network, and thus your monthly bill would be reduced by half. Well, in some countries.
Basically, you pay only for the days when you CAN make use of the service without interruptions (whether or not you actually do is irrelevant here), with the exception of times that are contractually void of service (like, in this case, maintenance). Unforeseen circumstances cannot be contracted.
The company in question could, of course, try for recompense of their own if the "unforeseen circumstances" were caused by another person, or they could try to get a dotation from the country if it was a natural calamity, but that is another thing entirely.
As I said, it is dependent both of the actual contract and law, and those vary from place to place. In practice, most people wouldn't (and honestly...shouldn't) even bother with smaller or larger interruptions. The likelihood of being reimbursed is pretty low, really. I mean, law enforcers aren't very well known for understanding that what is "small" to them may be majority of the "free" budget of the person in question, and being "objective" is a myth as far as courts go. Besides, one would probably lose much more money on the random costs like transportation than get from the favorable outcome of a case (if it was favorable in the first place).
However, theory is one and practice is another. You said that Square Enix doesn't "own" anything. That's a theory. And it is possibly incorrect. It may very well owe to some of the player base, but not to others.
Well, in case that it's the ISP's issue entirely...Square Enix have nothing to do with it, however. The ISP may be liable instead. -
11-11-2017, 04:18 AMdotsforlifeAbout the time you and every other whining person understands how networking works and who is actually at fault here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandudez
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11-11-2017, 04:21 AMseraf
I haven't been able to play since last Sunday without dc's and horrific lag that puts the game in slideshow mode so I just quit logging in. The few times I have logged in it was to test the connection only to find it was still just as bad if not worse. This is the least I've played this game since it launched in 2013 and I've never missed a month of sub time.
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11-11-2017, 04:23 AMManuelBravoSee terms of use. Technically it's not an issue being it is accessible and DC are cause of server congestion. I personally haven't had a single problem logging in or staying logged in, neither has a few of my friends being in different servers. Hate to tell you this but there are a lot of factors in which SE is not responsible for trolls out there. Sure if they can make an article about it would be nice, however it does not seem there are enough players having that issue to really make it a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
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11-11-2017, 05:01 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
You should be asking the tier 1 ISPs if they will credit you. It was not a ffxiv network or server issues causing the disconnects.
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11-11-2017, 05:03 AMworldofneil
I'll be that guy and quote the terms of service:
Quote:
5. INTERRUPTION TO THE SERVICE
From time to time, in order to provide our customers with the optimal gaming experience, it is necessary for Square Enix to conduct routine maintenance on the computers and/or servers that support the Game. During these times, access to the Game or support services may be interrupted. Access may also be temporarily suspended in whole or in part, without notice, due to emergency repairs, fire, flood, explosion, war, strike, embargo, governmental action or failure to act, the act of any civil or military authority, act of God, or by any other causes beyond Square Enix's control, or any other reasons for which Square Enix, in its sole discretion, deems that temporary suspension is necessary. You acknowledge that disruptions of service may occur and waive any causes of action against Square Enix in any way arising from or related to any such disruptions of service.
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11-11-2017, 05:13 AMDoki
The last 3 days of farming hunts have been pretty frustrating. Multiple people DC right in the middle of a fight, and lose credit for the kill. Once it was a healer and I died while tanking as a result. It has been completely random as well. Both me & my wife play in the same room, same router, same ISP, and we DC at completely different times, even if we're in the same zone. Network connection perfectly fine outside of game.
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11-11-2017, 05:17 AMKeridwyn
It's isn't really their fault if it's DDoS or if their providers are dropping the ball. As long as it isn't an issue with their hardware or their software stopping us from playing, they don't need to give us anything except an apology. Is it frustrating, incredibly, but there's not really anything to do but wait for the ISPs to get it together.
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11-11-2017, 05:26 AMEmstidorI don’t think anyone is actually arguing whether they have to (we know they don’t), the question is whether they should in the name of customer service. After all, this has proven to be an extremely frustrating experience for a lot of people. Frustrated people tend to not renew heir subscriptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by worldofneil
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11-11-2017, 05:41 AMManuelBravoWell the title Thread: So when does SE plan to credit our accounts for the multiple ongoing service issues? is pretty much demanding to be credited. Worldofneil just quoted what was in the terms of service. Seem s some people here are still expecting compensation. Then again I doubt most players even bother reading the terms of service. I mean in their mentality seems more of I pay I play. I pay I no play I want a refund. why should they read the terms of service right? For thos eof us that do understand seems we are just offering the short version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emstidor
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11-11-2017, 05:45 AMkikix12See, this little part is extremely irritating to read. Do you know why?! Because it's absolutely wrong, in a lot of cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuelBravo
If in the terms of service they wrote that you have to kill a kitten every time you want to log on, would you?! Heck, could you?! Would they be able to deny you service if you fulfilled the requirements otherwise?! If even one answer is different than 'no' for someone, then that person would need to see a specialist. And probably their local prosecutor if it would be for the first one...animal abuse is illegal in a lot of places of the world.
If a clause in any contract (terms of service included) goes against the letter of the law, it is invalid. They can write anything and everything they want in terms of service. More, I'll tell you this. Many publishers of MMO's, especially F2P ones, KNOWINGLY and PURPOSEFULLY add clauses that are invalid (the "you will not take X to court" variation being the prime culprit), just cause it will stop people that don't know the law, while it won't really hurt them against those that do.
If a law would obligate them to pay compensation, even if it is one of the things they wrote about in terms of service as exceptions, they will need to pay compensation if taken to court. Simple as that. The clause being in terms of service would be absolutely no argument at all and bringing it up could actually lead to a fine, instead of help their cause.
However, as I said, this is LAW DEPENDENT, and it does NOT apply to all people, as the laws where they live apply, not the law where the servers are, where Square Enix is located or anything else on their side. And some countries offer more pro-consumer laws than others.
It also does not apply at all, anywhere, if the issue is entirely on the ISP or any other middleman. How many people are affected or are not affected doesn't matter, only the source of the cause.
All in all...unless there would be many people gathering up for a group law suit, this is all moot, because practice shows that the losses, even on a won case, would absolutely not exceed gains when the matter is over such amounts as are brought up here (monthly subscription).
Now, don't get me wrong. I am neither telling anyone to go to court or anything of the sort. I am merely trying to inform you of the reality as it is seen by law, not by personal feelings of what is right or wrong. Cause law not always follows what one would call "common sense". And sometimes, like in this case, for a very good reason. You wouldn't want people literally sold into slavery just cause they ended up signing a contract that would enslave them, would you?! That's why law needs to trump over personal contracts, even if at times, it causes a completely innocent party to pay the price. -
11-11-2017, 05:46 AMMoonlite
Not to be mean, but you are on the wrong forums A) i think people own stock in SE or B) customers get what they deserve (not sure how that works) so how about a picture
https://i.imgur.com/QZZWjC2.jpg -
11-11-2017, 05:53 AMManuelBravoTheir is a reason why it's call a business and all business know what may and will most likely happen specially online. For example; if it's a recurring charge until canceled and it specifically states that on their agreement just because the consumers have better things to do and refuse to balance their checkbook like responsible people, take the time to cancel properly, and still complain, why should a company pay for it? 2 years, 3 years, and then expect the company to give them a refund just because they didn't log in and use their service? being an online service this things are predictable and have and will most likely continue to happen. IF people can't say OK I read the contract, it's their rules, I ACCEPT TO THE TERMS and want to play is considered a matter a choice. IF the company feels it has effected enough people they may actually offer some type of compensation of their free will just like when their is a natural disaster. I mean it could be worse, at least their not Apple.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
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11-11-2017, 05:57 AMNiravesI don't play on your crappy over congested realm, so me quitting has no effect on your queue. But good job, sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuelBravo
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11-11-2017, 05:58 AMManuelBravoYou think my over congested realm would also have issue as well right? Anytime old chap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niraves
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11-11-2017, 06:13 AMkikix12And?! Law is law. As I said, they can write whatever they want in ToS, and only the parts that are not at odds with the law apply, even if all of them are present there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuelBravo
And this is related to the topic...how?!Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuelBravo
Heck, I even wrote in my first post that what matters is the player having the possibility of playing, whether or not they actually try to do that. So this is really...yeah.
I won't continue this any further. I told you about the law. I wrote quite a lot, approaching the matter from multiple parts. I even gave you examples that should have made you think (seriously, you completely brushed off the risk of SLAVERY being perfectly legal if it was how you say it is, aka. the contract trumping over law just cause you read and signed it?!). If you still think it's not like this...it's not my problem. In the first place, I couldn't care less what anyone does with their time or money. I just care about them having fair chance at making an educated decision. -
11-11-2017, 06:25 AMManuelBravoNow if only consumers could also make an educated decision and understand that this situation is common with online services specially with games. If people don't like the terms hey by own means they don't have to use the service. Lets face it most people claim to rage quit, and for the most part come back anyways of their own free will. So yeah not accepting something as basic as this is more of being spoiled and wanting everything to go their way. We all pay a subscription, we can all be affected by it at any time. Using the term Slavery over the terms of use? come on hence the key words I AGREE when your using the product. While I do feel bad for people who are struggling I can't feint ignorance and say that they are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikix12
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11-11-2017, 06:58 AMBernkastelx
Kinda baffles me silly that even in 2017 people don't understand TOS, why they click "I agree", and how DDOSing works when its been an ongoing problem with no real solution since even the old xbox live days.
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11-11-2017, 07:12 AMdotsforlifeWell, this is the age of keyboard warriors, google scholars and entitled children/society in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernkastelx
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11-11-2017, 07:13 AMXerek
Does this suck? Yes. Should people get some compensation? Most likely. But the question more is, from whom? As many pointed out, this isn't directly SE's fault. Now they could still be nice and throw us a bone, but they're certainly not obligated to, as the OP seems to think.
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11-11-2017, 07:31 AMMoonliteProbably because other companies work with ISPs to try to get their customers a better online experience to smooth out the rough patches. While SE sells plushies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernkastelx
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11-11-2017, 07:39 AMNolLacnala
DDoS attacks are nothing new, there isn't an online service in the world that doesn't get them, even XIV. Hell, 1.0 even got them. The catch is that since the move, attacks have gotten noticeably worse, and the new provider's defenses are proving to be inefficient, to the point that it's looking like their systems can't differentiate between an attacker and a legitimate player (which explains the zero lag no stutter 90ks)
The shoddy defenses aren't the devs' fault, but it is their responsibility to give the datacenter hell for ineptitude. -
11-11-2017, 08:59 AMElazulHP
SE isn't the point of failure, it's the ISP's getting DDoS'ed. If anything SE will use this in their next round of negotiations to lower the price they get charged. Will we see anything out of it though? Unlikely. So don't get your hopes up.
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11-11-2017, 12:01 PMSenorPatty
I don't think they have plans. For starters, like most most mmos, they most certainly have a ToA clause that informs the user that (in very short words here) that you agree that there might be service disruptions and that they're not liable for it.
That being said...
Many mmos compensate not out of obligation but rather goodwill and subtle attempt to retain your patronage. There are various degrees at which they do this. Typically, a complete inability to log in, much less even play for an entire day may lead to an extra day or days of free game time. Notice the "entire" here. Anything less than that and its usually something like double exp or some consumable goods or very low value trinket.
All in all, the keyword here is obligation, to which SE usually finds itself not having to adhere to. -
11-11-2017, 12:10 PMVeteevaNot a solution but a suggestion
While the dc's are not pleasant getting back into the game is just as bad due to queue times. Would it not be possible to reinstate the afk timer that they had when stormblood was released to reduce server load by removing player who are not actually active at the moment.? Figure the coding is in place or easily enough reinstated that might at least help on their end.
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11-11-2017, 12:17 PMHyoMinParkThe queue times are from everyone trying to log back in at once—it doesn’t have anything to do with AFK players. The disconnects aren’t due to server congestion either, but DDoS attacks on NA ISPs. An AFK timer won’t fix either of these problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veteeva
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11-11-2017, 12:21 PMVeteeva
So less players logged into the game would not reduce server load that doesn't make much sense to me. Especially when people afk for hours and even days.
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11-11-2017, 12:28 PMBaingoleth
Getting mad at SE for their ISP trouble is like your kid getting mad at you because you have an internet outage. Do you have any power to fix your internet outage? Nope. You call your ISP and they tell you that they are working on it. Your kid doesn't get a credit but you might. Your kid might get a mega-ranger just to stop all the whining though. SE might get a credit and because people are whining, there might be some kind of handout to the players but I doubt it.
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11-11-2017, 12:28 PMClaviusnexThe problem with the DC's is not server load. It is an attack on the ISP that provides access to the internet backbone for the game servers that is causing the DC's and extreme lag. It wouldn't matter if there was only one player on a particular game server as they will be impacted when the attacks happen just the same as if there were a thousand players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veteeva
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11-11-2017, 12:28 PMHyoMinParkThe servers aren't crashing from that. People are disconnecting due to DDoS attacks, not from server congestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veteeva
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11-11-2017, 12:42 PMCalteruI would strongly discourage SE from offering anything. Some people might get the idea they can keep doing this to get stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baingoleth
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11-11-2017, 12:50 PMBaingolethI so agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calteru
Some folks have suggested that because NTT is having a hard time mitigating the DDoS attacks that they are experiencing, SE might want to consider a new ISP/data centre. There might be some wisdom in that sentiment. Switching ISPs and moving a data centre is no small undertaking though. NTT also has a global backbone so they are no small player. Only SE knows the cost to benefit in switching and I, personally, trust that they'll do what's best for the game. -
11-11-2017, 01:01 PMLazaruzWhile I can see your point about them throwing us a bone with something like the silver chocobo feathers, I actually genuinely think that not only does SE not owe us a thing (as the service interruptions are not on their part), but they shouldnt throw us a bone to begin with, as while it may not be in the way intended, it'd still make the example to people like the ones DDoS'ing the servers (for whatever reason) that such tactics work to get things your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisagami
It's a incredibly risky thing to allow as it entices people doing things like this again whenever SE does something that upsets people -
11-11-2017, 01:09 PMBaingoleth
I am experiencing this right now. There is an attack at ae-41.r02.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net
Code:Tracing route to 204.2.229.88 over a maximum of 30 hops
1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.254
2 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms 10.252.10.1
3 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms 154.11.12.203
4 46 ms 48 ms 45 ms sea-b2-link.telia.net [213.248.74.220]
5 55 ms 57 ms 55 ms ntt-ic-327522-sea-b2.c.telia.net [80.239.195.59]
6 56 ms 55 ms 55 ms ae-9.r04.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.5.117]
7 46 ms 46 ms 47 ms ae-5.r21.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.2.7]
8 68 ms 69 ms 70 ms ae-3.r23.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.3.124]
9 879 ms 851 ms 900 ms ae-41.r02.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.6.119]
10 * 368 ms * ae-2.r00.scrmca02.us.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.7.33]
11 345 ms 93 ms 72 ms xe-0-1-0-1-1.r00.scrmca02.us.ce.gin.ntt.net [129.250.195.46]
12 72 ms * 72 ms 204.2.229.234
13 72 ms 72 ms 72 ms 204.2.229.88
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11-11-2017, 01:10 PMSenhime
The question is; why are only US players (data center wise) targeted?