Dark Knight feedback

Yoshida has asked that we provide continued feedback of the job balance after the release of Savage content.

Dark Knight players have provided hundreds of posts since before Savage and continues to provide a large amount of feedback.

We are now asking for feedback from the delopment team.

Can we please get some feedback on the current state of Dark Knight?

Does the team acknowledge a balance issue?
Will there be near future adjustment?
Do you feel balance has been achieved?

Any acknowledgement of the countless threads/posts would be much appreciated by the DRK community.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the dev discussion regarding job balance happens only at live letters or interviews with Yoshi-P. Because everything is run centrally, the flow of information is slow. It's not like you're interacting directly with a job or even a role lead who is an expert in the area. The only exception that I've seen to this is in Lore, where Koji Fox directly interacts with the playerbase in an area of his expertise. But I think it's because he's aware of what western MMO players are expecting when it comes to feedback and dev interaction on the forums. Outside of that, the forums seem to be like the suggestion box in the hallway: you're not entirely sure if someone has looked in it recently.

This is a pretty complex game. We're competing for feedback against players looking for information on when there will be more housing, when bunny ears will be available for all players, and why you can't stack lalafells on top of each other. Running all of the communication through live letters is like getting all of your information from the Prime Minister. Sometimes, your cabinet ministers have to step up to the plate and explain what's going on. I would love to have some direct feedback from a DRK job lead or even a Tank role lead, just to understand their thought process and design philosophy. It also helps when the person in question actually plays your role, because then they understand your issues. Imagine a game designed entirely from the perspective of a dps player ("What do you mean, you want to do high damage as a tank? Aren't you just there to hold the boss in position for me?")

You really need to look at the big western MMO devs to see the format that players here are looking for. I think it's more important for your playerbase to understand why you're changing something, than it is for you to know what you're changing. Balance isn't just dependent on numbers; it's also dependent on how the playerbase perceives and reacts to those numbers. It's the product of both.

As somebody who is newer to this game, I find the lack of the intended direction really disconcerting. In most online games, the developers are clear what their intentions with each class/character/unit is.
In FFXIV, I get a few sentence about lore, some patch notes with nothing but numbers, but there is a lack of conveyance of what their goal is.
When I was trying to pick a tank to play, the best I could find is just a couple of posts and videos that amounted to "they're about the same, play which one you like". So nobody knows? That's a sad state of job definition.
Seriously, what is the Dark Knight supposed to be in this game, other than a TANK that has a visual theme and a playstyle - Do they even know? And without knowing what the Dark Knight is supposed to be (or whatever other job), how do we even suggest how to improve it?

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Originally Posted by SalamanderIX

Seriously, what is the Dark Knight supposed to be in this game, other than a TANK that has a visual theme and a playstyle - Do they even know? And without knowing what the Dark Knight is supposed to be (or whatever other job), how do we even suggest how to improve it?

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I think Dark Knight is supposed to be the "active" style tank with the Dark Arts based attacking and the Blackest Night based defending, only tank really where you can actively block hits by pressing an on-demand button. I mean, yeah, it's on 15s CD but in real terms it's normally ready when you want it.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I think Dark Knight is supposed to be the "active" style tank with the Dark Arts based attacking and the Blackest Night based defending, only tank really where you can actively block hits by pressing an on-demand button. I mean, yeah, it's on 15s CD but in real terms it's normally ready when you want it.

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Except that paladin has sheltron, they both have different uses but function really similarly. Since you can recharge your gauge every 22 seconds it also plays in a very active mitigating style. However they differ on how actively they buff themselves, which is what truly makes DRK active.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Except that paladin has sheltron, they both have different uses but function really similarly.

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Yeah I suppose, although Sheltron (in SwO) should take a tad longer to be ready than TBN.
Still, I think that active style was part of the intent behind SB DRK, it is just a guess though because as Salamander says they're not exactly clear on what the goal is over at SE.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Yeah I suppose, although Sheltron (in SwO) should take a tad longer to be ready than TBN.
Still, I think that active style was part of the intent behind SB DRK, it is just a guess though because as Salamander says they're not exactly clear on what the goal is over at SE.

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Agreed about SE's position on DRK.

Sheltron fills in SwO every 22 seconds from auto attacks, which is only 7 seconds longer than TBN recast so its fairly similar in high uptime fights.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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I totally agree. However, I do remember more communication from the transition from 1.0 to ARR and that communication has slowed a bit in the recent years.

I can't help but think we were shunned in the latest patch because they wanted to fix a skill for Warrior that had absolutely minimal use in Raid content and little use elsewhere. Although i feel DRK needs adjusting, they dont have a SB skill as bad as Shake It Off was for endgame content. This skill actually had taken SE awhile to resolve.

They mentioned this was the patch where they adjust job mechanics which I guess implies they have no desire to change the DRK mechanic.

This is all just speculation though because we have not had a single response to all this feedback. I'd be happy even to get a "The team thinks DRK is fine" message.
At least we know we are being heard.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

they wanted to fix a skill for Warrior that had absolutely minimal use in Raid content and little use elsewhere. Although i feel DRK needs adjusting, they dont have a SB skill as bad as Shake It Off was for endgame content. This skill actually had taken SE awhile to resolve.

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Dark Passenger? A skill so useless half of us don't even have it on our bar anymore?

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Originally Posted by NellMoshroca

Dark Passenger? A skill so useless half of us don't even have it on our bar anymore?

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What else do you use your MP on when you get synced down below 45?

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

What else do you use your MP on when you get synced down below 45?

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The correct move for a DRK any time they get synced to a dungeon at a level lower than 56 is to just leave the instance, take the 30m timer, and give the rest of the group an opportunity to get a different tank that isn't an active detriment to the party.

Unleash, Dark Passenger, and Sole Survivor are all basically just as bad as the 4.0 version of Shake It Off, and Blood Price is only slightly better than that. And yet only one of those five skills got an update in 4.1, for ~mysterious, unexplainable reasons~.

DP is not useless, it's a DPS gain in various scenarios.
It could do with fixes but it's not useless.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

DP is not useless, it's a DPS gain in various scenarios.
It could do with fixes but it's not useless.

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It's pretty useless. It's a "DPS gain" in any situation where you can hit more than one target with it, but it's an utterly, utterly insignificant gain in almost every situation possible. If it were removed from the game entirely, you wouldn't be able to notice it was gone from looking at overall DRK damage statistics.

4.0 Shake It Off was at least good at its intended purpose. Dark Passenger needs a list of like half a dozen pre-requisite conditions before it's ever beneficial to use it, and even when you do, you basically have to pore over your combat log with a microscope to spot the difference between using it or not.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It's pretty useless. It's a "DPS gain" in any situation where you can hit more than one target with it, but it's an utterly, utterly insignificant gain in almost every situation possible. If it were removed from the game entirely, you wouldn't be able to notice it was gone from looking at overall DRK damage statistics.

4.0 Shake It Off was at least good at its intended purpose. Dark Passenger needs a list of like half a dozen pre-requisite conditions before it's ever beneficial to use it, and even when you do, you basically have to pore over your combat log with a microscope to spot the difference between using it or not.

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The enemies would have to die in less than 3 ADs, for it to be a DPS increase, AND there would have to be no more combat right after, otherwise its always a DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

The enemies would have to die in less than 3 ADs, for it to be a DPS increase, AND there would have to be no more combat right after, otherwise its always a DPS loss.

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If you are fighting three or more targets, and you're in Grit, then you are technically better off damage-wise if you spend two GCDs to do Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike, and then do a DADP, than you are if you just do Abyssal Drain for two GCDs.

In the former case, you have a net cost of 2400 MP (-4800 for DADP, +2400 from Syphon), do 240 AoE potency, and 400 single-target potency.
The latter case costs you 2640 MP (1320 MP from AD, twice) for 240 AoE potency.


However, this is exactly what I'm talking about: Who fucking cares about saving 240 MP and doing 400 single-target potency, in a big dungeon pull?

This is Dark Passenger in a nutshell: It's actually very easy to find instances where Dark Passenger is a DPS gain, but the DPS gain is always so small that you'd never notice it if you didn't sit down to actually do math or pore over your combat log with a microscope.


Imagine how much SE would have to nerf Circle of Scorn before Paladins actually had to wonder "Am I losing DPS for using that here...?" Dark Passenger should be buffed to be as clear-cut and as effective a gain of CoS.

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Originally Posted by Crater

If you are fighting three or more targets, and you're in Grit, then you are technically better off damage-wise if you spend two GCDs to do Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike, and then do a DADP, than you are if you just do Abyssal Drain for two GCDs.

In the former case, you have a net cost of 2400 MP (-4800 for DADP, +2400 from Syphon), do 240 AoE potency, and 400 single-target potency.
The latter case costs you 2640 MP (1320 MP from AD, twice) for 240 AoE potency.


However, this is exactly what I'm talking about: Who fucking cares about saving 240 MP and doing 400 single-target potency, in a big dungeon pull?

This is Dark Passenger in a nutshell: It's actually very easy to find instances where Dark Passenger is a DPS gain, but the DPS gain is always so small that you'd never notice it if you didn't sit down to actually do math or pore over your combat log with a microscope.


Imagine how much SE would have to nerf Circle of Scorn before Paladins actually had to wonder "Am I losing DPS for using that here...?" Dark Passenger should be buffed to be as clear-cut and as effective a gain of CoS.

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Technically the number of targets is really important, as with a group of just 3 mobs, it would be a DPS increase, with 0 threat moves, and with 4 mobs it would break even.
Most groups do larger, which would make it a DPS loss. (With exceptions to a few pulls which force you to go with 4 or less mobs, to which its like you said.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Technically the number of targets is really important, as with a group of just 3 mobs, it would be a DPS increase, with 0 threat moves, and with 4 mobs it would break even.
Most groups do larger, which would make it a DPS loss. (With exceptions to a few pulls which force you to go with 4 or less mobs, to which its like you said.)

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No, what I said holds true for anywhere from 3 to infinite enemies; two GCDs of Hard Slash and Syphon Strike, and a DADP, is always technically better for damage than two Abyssal Drains. It's always going to be 240 potency of AoE damage with both options, it's always going to be a net cost of 2640 MP for two ADs versus a net cost of 2400 MP for DADP + Hard Slash + Syphon Strike, and there's always going to be 400 potency of single-target damage added on to the DADP option.

The point is that merely being a technical net gain isn't enough to justify the skill's inclusion in DRK's toolkit. The skill absolutely needs a massive buff, but if you go around incorrectly saying that it's a "loss" in situations where it is technically a gain, it's easy for people to shut down your argument.

Much like Shake It Off, the complaint should not be that using the skill actually harms you - only that its effect is so marginal, situational, and weak even when you are in a situation where you'd use it that it must be made much, much stronger.

The big thing people over look when calculating DADP damage is the fact that it is an OGCD.
You have to calculate it keeping in mind you will spend 3 GCDS at the same time (full combo).
Or as Crater does it, 2 GCDS works well too.

It's beneficial to use it in aoe scenarios in every way bar a few exceptions.
One problem is it makes the aoe rotation change for 3 gcds.
It's best out put for mana spent is on 2 enemies. (Compared with any other mana spending option).

Without grit, DADP + SE combo gets outdamaged by abyssal at roughly 9 enemies over 3 gcds.
With grit, it's limitless. If you have 9+ enemies, you will most likely cap on mp or blood without using it, especially with Delirium up.

The biggest noticeable boost is 2 enemies and as more enemies join, it's as crater says, the damage becomes less noticeable as abyssal scales up.

The skill could use an mp reduction or a damage boost.

Personally, I'd find it fair to deal 80 potency for 1200 mana.

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Originally Posted by Crater

No, what I said holds true for anywhere from 3 to infinite enemies; two GCDs of Hard Slash and Syphon Strike, and a DADP, is always technically better for damage than two Abyssal Drains.

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I actually did make a mistake, in that I accidentally calculated DP as the 3rd GCD, rather than the possibility of a 3rd GCD being added to the DPS in the DP rotation.
I'd have to either plot out the math of all the variations, or go find the original post that had all the variables plotted out, but there is a number of GCDs that need to pass, in which AD does out dmg DP, but there were a few catches to that as well, such as needing the MP immediately after, and having no time to build it back up right after. (where a normal dungeon pull can give u the time needed to build back up between pulls usually)

This illustrates a problem that has been brought up multiple times in other threads though, that Dark Knight must sacrifice their resource used for defense or sustain for extremely small damage increases. Is Dark Passenger technically a gain in some situations? Yes, absolutely, but it's by such a small margin vs. the drain effect that Dark Knight relies upon to...well, form the cornerstone of its AoE survival and enmity. It's a major sacrifice for a questionable gain. There are situations where there's such a MP overflow that it becomes usable, but even in those situations one has to weigh the gain vs. anything else going on at the time.

For example, one problem I run into that I don't actually see often brought up in these threads is the massive amount of oGCD clogging up between GCDs. Other tanks have a fairly intuitive weaving/double weaving process which allows them to fit what they need between GCDs. Dark Knight frequently requires Dark Arts at all times, with Blackest Night taking up the other double weaving spot, making fitting other abilities when the situation requires a nightmare. A remedy to this problem, which existed in Heavensward and felt more like part of the frenzied playstyle, was to hold onto Dark Arts through GCDs until needed. But with Syphon Strike eating a Dark Arts there's less time and availability to...well, queue up for your multitude of oGCDs before you start triple weaving or worse.

To bring this back on topic, even in situations where you do have the MP overflow to spare, there's often too many other abilities you're trying to mash together for a DA+DP to really flow together. Especially in the middle part of a huge pull when you can spam more Quietus but are relying on Blackest Night to float you between other cooldowns. One thing I've neglected to mention is the blind effect, which in practice I've never really noticed to be effective at all, I did a couple tests where it seemed like it was a 10% miss chance or less.

While it is a DPS gain, saying that feels a bit misleading because it isn't telling the whole story, and we actually do need other forms of straight DPS gains that aren't morton's fork choices.

DP is worthless as is and Blood Price nerf severely impacts performance in lower level shit no sane DRK will ever bother running.

The argument of using Dark Passenger because you got nothing better to spend it on at low levels is a poor argument. It's rather idiotic really.

So just wanted to add a little feedback on Drk that I had. Keep in mind I haven't played it to 70 yet this is mostly based off reading tool tips and having a level 60 Drk.

Scourge: simply put would like to see this return.
Delirium: keep the 4.x effects but make it combo off of Syphon Strike. Removing this as a combo action turned Drk into a boring 1-2-3 job in my opinion.
Syphon Strike: why does this need a dark arts sub effect? feels like I'm spamming dark arts way too much. Maybe others could weigh in on this for me.
The Blackest Night: will echo what others have said with it needing a longer duration. Maybe give it a blood gauge cost?
New job mechanic: would like to see it added (maybe a trait?) where the lower your hp is the more potent attacks become or something like that.
Rampart: just a little nitpick but I don't like the icon at all. (Doesn't match Drk skills)

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

Intro snip

Scourge: simply put would like to see this return.
Delirium: keep the 4.x effects but make it combo off of Syphon Strike. Removing this as a combo action turned Drk into a boring 1-2-3 job in my opinion.
Syphon Strike: why does this need a dark arts sub effect? feels like I'm spamming dark arts way too much. Maybe others could weigh in on this for me.
The Blackest Night: will echo what others have said with it needing a longer duration. Maybe give it a blood gauge cost?
New job mechanic: would like to see it added (maybe a trait?) where the lower your hp is the more potent attacks become or something like that.
Rampart: just a little nitpick but I don't like the icon at all. (Doesn't match Drk skills)

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I would say leave 4.xx Delirium as is BUT bring back Scourge with a similar effect to old Delirium.
I also agree with taking DA off SS, kinda useless and makes DA spammy.
As for TBN, to give use our own raid-wide mitigation skill they could make such a thing a DA effect, along with a second or two extension on duration.
We don't really need any new mechanics. I would say work more with what we have to bring us in line with the other two tanks. A new mechanic would require much more work and would take longer to implement.

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

I would say leave 4.xx Delirium as is BUT bring back Scourge with a similar effect to old Delirium.
I also agree with taking DA off SS, kinda useless and makes DA spammy.
As for TBN, to give use our own raid-wide mitigation skill they could make such a thing a DA effect, along with a second or two extension on duration.
We don't really need any new mechanics. I would say work more with what we have to bring us in line with the other two tanks. A new mechanic would require much more work and would take longer to implement.

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I like what you have to say on TBN, and maybe DA effect would extend TBN to party members within 30 yalms?. My suggestions on Delirium was more based on how you rotated delirium/souleater combos in heavensward. As it is now its just spamming DA souleater which is boring like how 50 pld was with its rage of halone combo. The mechanic I suggested was more a fun idea, kind of a hey what if we push this button if you will =^_^= The mechanic seems to fit in the power for a price theme seems to have the more I thought about it though.