4.1 and us tanks

What are you excited for? What changes are you hoping/looking forward to?

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Originally Posted by Trufrost

What are you excited for? What changes are you hoping/looking forward to?

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More strength on right side pieces

Only very slight adjustments to DRK, like about 50-100DPS increase and an additional cooldown with low strength (10%) and low recast (60s) for about 10s
Other than that, tanks are all pretty a-ok in terms of balance.

Thunder God Cid armors.

Personally I'm hoping for some dark knight buffs. I think my number 1 would be to allow dark knight to benefit from party mana refresh abilities while darkside is active. Number 2 would be additional effects/adjustments on delirium/bloodspiller/TBN/blood weapon/blood price, and number 3 I would like to see an adjustment to sole survivor that does not involve an add dying.

PLD and WAR seem fine for single targets, DRK on the other hand does need a couple of buffs to somewhat graze at least PLD's damage. Would it be broken if Darkside give another 5%? Maybe shorter CD for Delirium? Shadow Wall needs a buff, either making it the same as Sentinel or at least extends duration would be good. Bulwark is pretty bad for its CD.

I would say that either PLD/WAR or DRK needs to be adjusted for 4man dungeons. DRKs sustaining a lot more than PLD/WAR without dropping/delaying their dps seems pretty questionable. Maybe DA shouldn't do anything to Abyssal Drain so it's somewhat more equal for the tank jobs, also increase the mana consumed for Abyssal Drain.

More STR on accessories would be good but I would assume the change is more convenient for 4.2++. I hope that DH can be added for every role in their gear as well, it's dumb that tanks/healers don't get them naturally. Still not convince with Tenacity, so that's tentative to the expansion for now.

Other than that, I'm just hyped for the Ultimate series.

I've been interested to see what they're gonna do to shake it off. That's really about it. Drk needs some help to stay relevant in the high end raiding meta, but I don't think they have any intention (or are even aware of the issue) of fixing it, and it's not a huge deal at all anyway so it's kinda whatever.

Though I doubt it will happen, I'd love to see:
- A general reduction in cooldown times for defensive abilities (or at least for skills like Tempered Will and Bulwark).
- Making it all feel a bit more cohesive; e.g. Paladins got some nice new tools (and changes) in 4.0, but a lot of them (especially the gauge) feel rather disjointed and / or tacked on.
- A re-working of the cross-role abilities to provide some actual choice (as opposed the numerous 'must-have' and 'mostly-unless' abilities we current have).

DRK damage buff. TBN adjusted to be slightly longer, maybe make barrier 20% of person targeted's hp. Maybe unlock Blood price, the miniscule blood and mp wouldn't be game breaking, even if Delirium affected both Bw and Bp at the same time you'd only get 1 extra Bloodspiller and almost 1 extra DA per window. Rework Sole Survivor to not require add dying. Shadow wall buffed to 2 mins.

WAR shake it off change and maybe an ever so slight dps buff, maybe 10 pot on Heavy Swing, Maim, path or eye.

Bulwark CD reduced to 120 or 90. Tempered Will reduced to 1 min or less. It would also be nice if Passage of Arms's effect applied to the party faster but I guess all barrier effects have that issue.

Just wishful thinking but it would also be nice if we could spend gauge on more defensive options like 100 gauge for Divine Veil but only in Shield Oath or something.

{Scourge} {Where?}

maybe not for 4.1 but i surehope for 4.2 for an actuall fix on right side gear.

I'd kinda like to see dark mind be made a 15% damage reduction of all types and 30% under dark arts, since dark mind is supposed to be like DRKs answer to sheltron and sheltron can now block magic and DRK is kind of lacking on cooldowns right now.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I'd kinda like to see dark mind be made a 15% damage reduction of all types and 30% under dark arts, since dark mind is supposed to be like DRKs answer to sheltron and sheltron can now block magic and DRK is kind of lacking on cooldowns right now.

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Better equivalency is Shelltron=IB=Blackest night. Short CD. 20ish% damage reduction for a very short period (1 hit, 5 sec, 6 sec) effective on all damage types. Usuable for virtually every tank buster in a fight and then some. Every tank has their 'always up' mini CD.

Buff the dps of the DRK and the WAR, DRK because it should be stronger than the PLD - that is the main argument of the DRK: stronger than the PLD but less than the WAR, more resistant than the WAR but less than the PLD... But now he's just weaker than PLD and the WAR and... Equally resistant with the WAR? But far less than the PLD.
Maybe with buffing Dark Passenger - which is useless until we have 10 mobs around us, and so useless in Trials/ Raid, and Blood Price - in single target it doesn't deserve the using of Delirium! Maybe down the cost of TBN? Also, making the Living Dead more visible should be great.
So more dps for the DRK tobe at his place, and for the WAR: more dps to balance the absence of support. To be sure it stays the "DPS-Tank" of FF XIV.

Oh, and please, for the love of the God, please bring back Scourge and old Delirium's animations back...

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Originally Posted by Aana

Better equivalency is Shelltron=IB=Blackest night. Short CD. 20ish% damage reduction for a very short period (1 hit, 5 sec, 6 sec) effective on all damage types. Usuable for virtually every tank buster in a fight and then some. Every tank has their 'always up' mini CD.

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And yet one tank has their mini CD locked behind tank stance and a guarantee of dps loss for using it.

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Originally Posted by ScotchyScotch

And yet one tank has their mini CD locked behind tank stance and a guarantee of dps loss for using it.

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Yeah but the same tank has the highest number of CDs on top of having the shortest recasts on both their biggest defensive cooldown and their invuln compared to the other two tanks.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

WAR: more dps to balance the absence of support. To be sure it stays the "DPS-Tank" of FF XIV.

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no and millions of time no, buffing WAR dps when is already top in tank just Will make It semi mandattory again so no, the actual balance on dps of the tanks its good, only drk need a little push.

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Originally Posted by ScotchyScotch

And yet one tank has their mini CD locked behind tank stance and a guarantee of dps loss for using it.

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My response was in reply to making a poor comparison between dark mind and inner beast when drk has an closer functional equivalent to IB already. (Very short CD, similar mitigation value to IB/Shelltron, universal damage type, etc)

If you want to compare abilities in a vacuum everything is jacked up. IB is a DPS loss vs being in deliverance FC, sure, but you aren't in deliverance if youre using IB anyway so its a dps gain. Also shelltron/Darkest are 1 offs for a single hit while IB both heals and is continuous mitigation for 6 sec and reduces CD on infuriate. Oh but drks can use it for half effect on party members! Well instead of shelltron pld can intervention for the same cost on other people and use a CD! Well Drks gives gauge which can be used to increase damage even more! Etc. Etc.

Vacuum comparisons get real dumb real fast trying to rate X skill> Y skill. You have to compare the entire package of the class. They all have similar tools. Not the same tools. All have an immunity, but you can fight all day about which ones better because they are different. Same for their always up IB/DN/Shell.

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Originally Posted by shao32

no and millions of time no, buffing WAR dps when is already top in tank just Will make It semi mandattory again so no, the actual balance on dps of the tanks its good, only drk need a little push.

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If you just up the DRK and not the WAR, this last will be forgotten as the MNK in HW imo.
Again, WAR doesn't have anything to support other players when DRK has TBN, just for example. The top in tank now is Pld, you see it everywere; WAR is most used when the fight doesn't need an OT.
We know when only one tank is buff, one is indirectly nerfed. If buffing DRK results to see the WAR set aside...

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

If you just up the DRK and not the WAR, this last will be forgotten as the MNK in HW imo.
Again, WAR doesn't have anything to support other players when DRK has TBN, just for example. The top in tank now is Pld, you see it everywere; WAR is most used when the fight doesn't need an OT.
We know when only one tank is buff, one is indirectly nerfed. If buffing DRK results to see the WAR set aside...

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TBN cant be call raid utility at all in how works due use it dont offer almost nothing to the DRK more that a dps loose depending of who need it in you party list, and for extra mitigation on the MT not really bcs both PLD and WAR surpass by far in the mitigation field specially WAR, so in that DRK and WAR are in the same boat, buff DRK is necesary but not in a huge way bcs we are 200 dps lower and our mitigation is worst in terms of recast and all we lost, the actual level of dps betwen tanks its almost perfect, WAR is the most versatile tank of the moment, PLD is king for the utility but WAR still have the best dps and the best self mitigation, heavensward was a mess due DPS problems betwen tanks and i dont want to see that again.

if WAR need something is meaby utility and SE say alreay they are change shake it off, WAR dont need more dps

So for you, using TBN during a TB or to protect a heal in pain or the other tank is useless? Making dps is good, but if you are tank, your first role is to make the team survive.
This is the kind a words that irritate the dev team: "dps dps dps dps dps..." and that's why they've made mob more powerfull and tank less powerfull.
Again, if you've the luck to raid with 7 other players with you are in symbiosis, it's not everyone's case, and as a DRK, I never hesitate to put a TBN on the other tank or another player in trouble.
If they die, then you'll have a bigger dps lost than using a TBN.
And you can't affirm they'll make Shake it off a support utility, and if they keep the same eye on the idea to make the team works together instead of just dps, WAR has a chance to be out.

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WAR needs utility

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While not wrong, I would like to point out WAR does have its share of utility, even if its not quite seen.
Holmgang is a mitigation CD, but its so darn useful, it leaves the other tank to save mitigation CDs for other stuff.

And the most obvious one being slashing resistance.
While SAMs and RDMs are the most common, and NINs still exist, there's plenty of groups, and times my raid group didnt have a NIN, and we never have a SAM, and we had to make our DRK OT switch to WAR OT (or MT for holmgang) just for the extra slashing resistance down. (since it wasnt clear enough, no, im not suggesting RDM has the slashing debuff. just that its one of 2, of the most popular DPS, showing that SAM is very likely to be in your group.)

The issue with utility, stems from speed run builds, where they usually already have stuff covered.

The oldschool path giving -10% raid dmg was nice, but still not going to make ppl pick WAR over another tank in that alone. (but it would honestly help cover the gap lost from "Cover" and "TBN" which WAR has nothing like, for similar function.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

While not wrong, I would like to point out WAR does have its share of utility, even if its not quite seen.
Holmgang is a mitigation CD, but its so darn useful, it leaves the other tank to save mitigation CDs for other stuff.

And the most obvious one being slashing resistance.

If you have a NIN, Im pretty sure its better to have WAR put up the debuff, where as SAM puts it up by default. (Correct me if im wrong)

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Highlighted important part. After leveling drk to 70 I considered possibly switching so pld and I could have a bit more leeway with dps stance, that was until I realized we had no other source of slashing in the party. So yea, war utility for the win I guess lol

And yea, slashing debuff is in SAM rotation

Consistency in cd times/effects across all tanks. I think dark dance should be redone now too, considering drk's cd shortage.

I'll say that having played all three tanks, and still switching between them every now and then depending on what I feel like, I expect the most impactful changes to be for the DRK as I consider them currently the most in need of them. Warrior will likely get something done with shake it off or some other minor adjustments, and Paladin will likely see very little change as they are fine just the way they are pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Better equivalency is Shelltron=IB=Blackest night. Short CD. 20ish% damage reduction for a very short period (1 hit, 5 sec, 6 sec) effective on all damage types. Usuable for virtually every tank buster in a fight and then some. Every tank has their 'always up' mini CD.

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TBN I'd say is more closely comparable to clemency and equilibrium as the closest thing DRK has to an instant self heal. Dark mind on the other hand, in 3.0 was a much closer comparison to sheltron, as PLD was more the physical tank, being able to block physical attacks frequently with sheltron, while DRK was more the magical tank being able to block magic frequently with dark mind.

With 4.0 the PLD physical, DRK magical comparison went away. Yet DRKs cooldowns are kind of lacking in the defensive department compared to the other two, including shadow wall being the same cooldown as sentinel while being weaker, living dead being trash and dark mind remaining in a magical niche when sheltron was made universal.

How I would change Dark Mind, probably wouldnt make many people happy, but would be;
w/o Grit up, -10% physical dmg taken
with grit up, -20% physical dmg

w/o grit up, +DA, -10%magic dmg taken (physical mitigation is not present while magic defense is up)
with grit up, +DA, -20% magic dmg taken.

Im just hoping for very very very impressive/Pretty Weapon for the three tanks on the Ultimate

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

If you have a NIN, Im pretty sure its better to have WAR put up the debuff, where as SAM puts it up by default. (Correct me if im wrong)

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NIN slashing debuff is linked to their 18s dot, so its basically default.

-Revert Dark Passenger to HW.
-Dark Mind is now 10%/20% damage reduction, not magic specific.
-Shake it Off: 30% of next hit dealt as DoT damage. More realistically: Defiance only Equilibrium.(Not great but better than its current version.)
-Reprisal and TBN buffed to 6-8s purely for more consistency with server ticks.

Completely Unrealistic Wish: Each class has a native Rampart Equivalent.

From a DRK perspective:

TBN:
This skill should be a consistent dps gain when the shield breaks. It should reimburse both the cost and give 50 blood. Then change it to its PvP description (i.e. 20% for self or target party member, so that your teammate shield will only break under a substantial attack. This isn't something that should be haphazardly spammed in the hope that it breaks on a random auto. The counterattacks should be your reward for knowing all of the cleave timings.

Bloodspiller:
DRK offers the least in the way of personal burst. If so, we should offer more consistent dps on average. (This still works out to be harder than playing a burst-focused class in the long run, because any loss in uptime is costly, rather than just during your burst window).

If Bloodspiller is to hit less hard, then it should at least hit as often (if not more frequently) as equivalents on other tanks. This could be done by increasing the blood gain on Souleater to 20, as it is in PvP. Speaking of Souleater and PvP, the life-steal should apply in Grit, as it does there.

oGCDs:
In 3.x, DA usage on oGCDs was built around the fact that you could apply DA on an earlier combo action and apply it on a later oGCD. Now that DA procs off of most GCD actions, it forces an unnecessary double weave. The cost should be built into the ability. Likewise, DP needs to be reworked so that it sees more use. Just make the DA effect baseline.

In the long-term, I would like to see C+S cost blood and return MP, and DP cost MP and return blood, but I'm not sure if that will be feasible in this expansion, given the timing of when we learn certain skills.

Also, if this tier has taught us anything, Plunge should be 20y, like every other gap closer.

Blood Weapon/Price:
At a 40 second recast, BW doesn't have good synergy with raid buffs. It should be 30 seconds, and be usable in Grit. Blood Price is useless in single target and a bit overpowered in AoE, and should either be re-tuned or re-purposed.

Defensive Cooldowns:
The easiest way to solve DRK's defensive issues is to shorten the recasts on both Shadow Wall and Living Dead, probably by a minute each to bring it in line with WAR. They could and probably should increase the recast on Dark Mind if they do this (or rework the skill entirely).

Sole Survivor probably could do with a rework as well. It's a very niche skill with limited use. It should be a HP/MP leech effect while active.

Grit Activation:
In the interviews leading up to SB, the devs pointed out that one of the main sources of imbalance in HW was the flexibility with which WAR can stance dance compared to the other two tanks, which is why gauge costs were implemented at the start of SB. This was universally disliked. If we can agree that tank stance activation costs are awful, then no tank should have them, period.

In particular, there is no reason why Grit or Darkside should have MP costs. There is a GCD penalty in place already. Having the double penalty on DRK is silly. In fact, the MP cost no longer exists in PvP.

Summary
TBN: Creates a barrier around self or other party member that absorbs damage totaling 20% of your maximum HP. Increases Blood Gauge by 50 and restores MP cost when full 20% is absorbed.

Souleater: Increases blood gauge by 20 and restores HP outside of Grit (50% absorbed).

Bloodspiller: Restores own MP (1200 MP).

Carve and Spit: 450 potency at baseline, costs 2400 MP (DA cost is baseline).

Dark Passenger: 240 potency/mob at baseline, costs 2400 MP.

Plunge: Increase range to 20y. Increased enmity generation.

Blood Weapon: Reduce recast to 30s. Make blood weapon usable in Grit.

Shadow Wall: Reduce recast to 120s.

Living Dead: Reduce recast to 180s.

Sole Survivor: Absorbs HP/MP over time while active.

Grit and Darkside: Remove MP activation cost.

Increase the MP pool, to allow more room to float your resources.

A number of these changes already exist in PvP. Just port them over, and they'll work wonders to the class.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

snip.

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you know how TBN works? Its a 5 seconds shield, you can only make it useful for others on tank busters and cast raid aoes, and the chances of someone need It in just a normal party are minimal on non tanks.
WAR have much more utility in real combat thanks to the shorts CDs and storm eye, they dont have any chance to be Out, the point its have all tanks being viable not make one mandatory for speedruns, bigger dps gaps betwen tanks bring more problems that solutions and thats a proof from heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

*Slashing Resistance Down Things*

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RDM has nothing to do with Slashing. Its enchanted melee combo is magic, non-enchanted along with the oGCDs are Physical Pierce. :)

Even if SAM and NIN are present there are a few interesting facts (and benefits) about this slashing debuff:

1- WAR accesses it on second GCD whereas SAM applies it for the first time a bit late depending on which opener they use. i.e. on about the 9th GCD in 1 Sen Hagakure openers. NIN applies on 3rd GCD regardless. It does not matter THAT much since it's only at the beginning of each fight or after boss invulnerability periods.


2- The order is: SAM, WAR, NIN SAM's debuff overwrites WAR's but is longer. NIN's debuff is overwritten by WAR's because it's shorter. I believe 30 > 24 > 21 for SAM, WAR and NIN respectively.

3- This really follows the above points but deserves to be its own since it is a bit detailed:

In the natural DPS rotation, WAR applies Maim every combo from their second hit. Even if you need to build enmity, Butcher's Block doesn't need to be used more than once every Storm's Eye duration. This benefits the slashing DPS jobs in an interesting way.

SAM wants to cycle different combos for Sen. When SAM wants to apply Higanbana (the DoT) it needs 1 Sen. If you know the other person will reapply it before it falls off, SAM can rearrange its combos for a choice of extending a buff early or using the faster Sen from the 2 step combo Yukikaze.

With either of the other two present, NIN can allow its slashing debuff to fall off for just under 2 seconds to allow a full Shadow Fang DoT instead of clipping it early to ensure slashing debuff doesn't fall off. This may also add another Aeolian Edge combo.

DISCLAIMER: Take this with a grain of salt as I do not main SAM nor NIN but I play them on and off on an alt character. The info above is what I picked up from other NIN/SAM players and may not necessarily be adequate DPS gains. If so I stand corrected and would not mind being told the correct way.

I am really enjoying the stormblood pld, so much so that I have been maining it since SB release (switched from WHM).

My only complaint about pld right now is that clemency feels a bit too powerful for a ffxiv tank role given the way healing works in this game.

I'd be down for nerfing clemency burst. Maybe making it an oGCD HoT or something

Making it an ogcd AND a HoT would actually be a giant buff to PLD so ...I'm down for it xD

Nothing is worse than losing a gcd to clemency, I avoid it at all costs except when I progged savage. Tho I may still bust out 1 in o3 or o4 if someone is about to die and the healers are aoeing.

Beside seeing how they will mess up the Shake it of change, I am also curious to see which tank job they manage to fuck over this time.

WAR:
Shake it off >> mini infuriate OR anything else really
Unchained and inner release no longer share same CD timer
Mini potency buffs

PLD:
SOLID CLASS

DRK:
Give more raid utitility
Blood weapon now use in grit
Grit no longer cost mp, Put grit on GCD

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Originally Posted by Schrute

WAR:
Shake it off >> mini infuriate OR anything else really
Unchained and inner release no longer share same CD timer
Mini potency buffs

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I really don't think war needs potency buffs, unless we wanna push drk further out of the meta. I'd be completely fine with the first two.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

WAR:
Shake it off >> mini infuriate OR anything else really
Unchained and inner release no longer share same CD timer

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This sounds like it would break WAR a bit.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

Mini potency buffs

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ok this definitely breaks WAR

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Originally Posted by Schrute

PLD:
SOLID CLASS

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pretty much true, unless u buff the others too much, like WAR DPS, then PLD needs updated to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

DRK:
Give more raid utitility

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while not completely unreasonable of a request, you need to be careful, otherwise u'll make DRK too good.

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Originally Posted by Schrute

Blood weapon now use in grit

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too OP

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Originally Posted by Schrute

Grit no longer cost mp, Put grit on GCD

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its already on the GCD...

Dark Side needs to have its MP activation cost removed imo (like in HW), as it was something you could do when the boss jumps away to get a small bit of MP back, rather than just sit there, with it still on.
(plus something liek foresight, with a 20s or so bit of mitigation, to help with Lv60-69 when u need more minor mitigation)

WAR is in more need of utility than DRK is, but ironically, if u do give a minor bit of utility to WAR, then a similar amount of utility needs to be added to DRK, so WAR doesnt continue to outshine DRK. (as it already is doing)

Pld is very comparable to WAR in dps atm and plds bring a lot of raid utility. Cover in 4vs is a godsend -covering the main healer after almaguest to stop Aero and earthshaker from killing them, allowing both tanks to remain in tank stance, not to mention divine veil and passage of arms for almaguest and any other big raid wide dmg going out. War has no raid utility to midigate raid wide dmg and in many cases PLD can out dps war. It should not be this close between the two. I do not see how making unchained not sharing a CD timer with IR would make it OP. OP for pulling yes but other than that it will never be used again because it is a HUGE dps loss to use it in lieu of inner release. I suggest MINOR potency buffs because of how unforgiving WAR rotation and the fact war brings way less raid utility than PLD. And if war's utility and identity is locked into being the best dmg dealer of the 3 tanks then it should be without question.