combo skills

just tried PVP for the first (and last) time and noticed that all the combo skills are all bound to a single button press, iam just wondering is why is this a pvp only thing? how come square didnt add this to PVE as well?

I imagine they may well do it for PvE when they need to shrink down button bloat again in the future.

Probably testing its reception first. I definitely think it'll be added by 5.0, maybe later in 4.X.

From what I remember Yoshi-P saying, it has to do something with how they also took out the positional requirements in PvP. The problem is apparently linked to coding and server positioning transmitting or something like this that they can't implement it in PvE without seriously having to rework things.

I'm sure they'll add it in the future whether people like it or not.

It also probably has to do with the fact that in PvE many combos split and can have different finisher options which wouldn't work with a single button.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

It also probably has to do with the fact that in PvE many combos split and can have different finisher options which wouldn't work with a single button.

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This, PvP drastically reduces the abilities we get, and in PvE changing your combos up and being able t react and throw another skill in are more important (since, you know, you have other skills)

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

It also probably has to do with the fact that in PvE many combos split and can have different finisher options which wouldn't work with a single button.

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for the rare classes like monk with have multiple combos it can be split into 2 buttons

bootshine, true strike, snap punch in one combo dragon strike, twin snakes, demolish in another that will free up 4 hotbar slots and to make it work all it has to do is switch as you use it, I.E when you use combo 1s bootshine combo 1 turns into true strike and combo 2 turns into twin snakes allowing you to either use twin snakes or go into true strike and vice versa

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

It also probably has to do with the fact that in PvE many combos split and can have different finisher options which wouldn't work with a single button.

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DRK already has an answer to that.

http://i.imgur.com/vvKraxk.png

I remember the reason it was added to PVP was because "It is too dynamic and we want you to focus on other players rather than your combos" meaning the simpler combos are to perform the better you can expect people to perform in regards to movement and CC and other associated parts of PVP

That said, they left it in PVE because the fights are always the same, so focusing on your combos along with mechanics is the challenge, not adapting to a constantly changing environment such as PVP. Combos not being consolidated into a single button adds another layer of difficulty that isn't "spam this one button" which is preferred

I appreciate not having a 1-2-3-1-2-3 rotation on my Monk in PvE, so no thank you to having the buttons consolidated. It also brings to rise the question of what happens with Monk and Samurai when they're under the effects of Perfect Balance or Meikyo Shisui. They wouldn't work very well if all of your weaponskills were crammed into two buttons.

Especially when there are times in pve you are in the middle of a combo that splits, but a mechanic happens making you need to change which finisher you are using. Such as melee aoe happening forcing a PLD to go out and suddenly that Royal Authority needs to be a Goring Blade otherwise the DoT falls off. With them reduced to separate 1 button combos you can't really do that, unless they code both buttons to go through the motions each time one is hit.

Might as well make the game a walking simulator. Take away any element of skill, why not wh?

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

Especially when there are times in pve you are in the middle of a combo that splits, but a mechanic happens making you need to change which finisher you are using. Such as melee aoe happening forcing a PLD to go out and suddenly that Royal Authority needs to be a Goring Blade otherwise the DoT falls off. With them reduced to separate 1 button combos you can't really do that, unless they code both buttons to go through the motions each time one is hit.

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That's actually exactly what happens in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Vandril

That's actually exactly what happens in PvP.

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Not both at the same time though, which is what they mean. Or rather, if you're hitting Combo I, Combo II doesn't also change along with it. If I'm using Combo I and then start using Combo II it makes me start at the beginning of II instead of its Combo I equivalent (at least that's how it works for Monk).

Example: Combo I for Monk is Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch and Combo II is Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish.

If I use Combo I up to True Strike and then press Combo II, I'll perform Dragon Kick instead of Twin Snakes. This works OK in PvP where abilities have drastically different effects than normal, but in a PvE environment where you might work on a priority system and not a set 1-2-3 rotation, having skills forced into a set order would cause a lot of issues.

Please no. I don't like it in PvP to begin with. I certainly don't want it moved over to PvE. That just makes rotations feel even more dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Not both at the same time though, which is what they mean. Or rather, if you're hitting Combo I, Combo II doesn't also change along with it. If I'm using Combo I and then start using Combo II it makes me start at the beginning of II instead of its Combo I equivalent (at least that's how it works for Monk).

Example: Combo I for Monk is Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch and Combo II is Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish.

If I use Combo I up to True Strike and then press Combo II, I'll perform Dragon Kick instead of Twin Snakes. This works OK in PvP where abilities have drastically different effects than normal, but in a PvE environment where you might work on a priority system and not a set 1-2-3 rotation, having skills forced into a set order would cause a lot of issues.

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Counter Argument:
All tanks have 2 combo strings starting with the same skill.
Both combos are advancing to their second tier if either of the combos is used.
After this they split up, combo 1 advances to skill X while combo 2 advances to skill Y in the second tier. And with the use of a second tier skill only the combo with this skill will advance further to tier 3 and the other combo resets to tier 1.
It is the same mechanic like in PvE, the button shows the highlighted skill of the combo, if no skill is highlighted it shows the combo starter.
Same for NIN.

MNK lost his forms in PvP.
With this change they had to force 2 combo strings or allow multiple combo requirements and the former was more easy for them then the later.

All in all i would welcome the PvP combo button for the reasons of button pruning.
I think a job schould be fully playable with just 3 to maximum 4 Cross-Hotbars (R2, L2, R2+L2, L2+R2) on a Controller with the ability to display all of this Cross-Hotbars on the UI. So 24 to 32 Slots for Skills, LB, Sprint, Potions, maybe a mount or more and encounter specific actions.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Not both at the same time though, which is what they mean. Or rather, if you're hitting Combo I, Combo II doesn't also change along with it. If I'm using Combo I and then start using Combo II it makes me start at the beginning of II instead of its Combo I equivalent (at least that's how it works for Monk).

Example: Combo I for Monk is Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch and Combo II is Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish.

If I use Combo I up to True Strike and then press Combo II, I'll perform Dragon Kick instead of Twin Snakes. This works OK in PvP where abilities have drastically different effects than normal, but in a PvE environment where you might work on a priority system and not a set 1-2-3 rotation, having skills forced into a set order would cause a lot of issues.

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That's because neither of your PvP combos as MNK start with the same weaponskill. If they did, both combos would progress until you use a skill that the other combo doesn't utilize. For example, if you use Fast Blade as a PLD in PvP, which both of your combos start with, both Combo Buttons will highlight and progress to the second weaponskill of the combo regardless of which Combo Button you press to use Fast Blade.

For reference, the PLD PvP combos are:

Combo A: Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone
Combo B: Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Royal Authority

A bit of detail on how this works:

* If you press either Combo Button to use Fast Blade, Combo A will progress to Savage Blade AND Combo B will progress to Riot Blade.

* If you then use Savage Blade, Combo A will progress to Rage of Halone and Combo B will RESET to Fast Blade.

* If you then use Combo B's Fast Blade, Combo A will reset and progress to Savage Blade AND Combo B will progress to Riot Blade.

That should be enough information to understand how it works.

The only thing you can do in PvE that you can't in PvP with the PvP Combo Button system is use 2nd/3rd abilities in a combo without the combo bonus (like spamming Savage Blade without using Fast Blade first). As far as gameplay mechanics go, the only classes I can see this being a problem for in PvE are MNK and SAM due to their cooldowns that allow them to ignore combo requirements for the combo bonuses of some weaponskills. With the PvP Combo Button system as it works now implemented into PvE, there'd be no way for MNK/SAM to make use of the cooldown.

Okay, I stand corrected. I haven't done PvP (nor been to the pier) on any other class besides MNK since they added the new system so I was mistaken. It would somewhat "work" for certain classes in PvE. I'm still not entirely sure why anyone would want to just mash ~3 buttons over and over again. It only really works in PvP because neutering or outright removing a bunch of skills makes for very simplistic rotations which lend themselves to PvP's dynamic nature. In PvE I think the same treatment would make combat incredibly boring.

So again: No, thank you.

Even if they did add it to pve, it would probably be a setting under character customization. A box that you would check. What difference would it make if a player preferred it or didn't?

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Originally Posted by Gravton

Even if they did add it to pve, it would probably be a setting under character customization. A box that you would check. What difference would it make if a player preferred it or didn't?

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Even better, they should be able to just let you have the best of both worlds. We could have the consolidated Combo Buttons as something we can drag to our bar without removing the ability to drag individual weaponskills to our bars. Thinking about it, most opponents of the change have been working under the assumption that the Combo Buttons and individual weaponskills have to be mutually exclusive, but they don't. Implemented in that sort of hybrid manner, it would even allow MNK/SAM to partake without losing out on Perfect Balance/Meikyo Shisui.

I hope it never comes to Pve, that makes the whole game brain dead.

A toggle or option would be fine if SE could guarantee parity between the simplistic and advanced modes.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Please no. I don't like it in PvP to begin with. I certainly don't want it moved over to PvE. That just makes rotations feel even more dumbed down.

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Why? How is 1,2,3 any harder then 1,1,1? I never understood this, people love to act like this game takes "skill" just because so many can't play?

So pre built macros. As long as they add a drag and drop macro tool as well and let crafters use it. I doubt anyone would miss 16 flawless Synth button mashing.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

So pre built macros. As long as they add a drag and drop macro tool as well and let crafters use it. I doubt anyone would miss 16 flawless Synth button mashing.

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That is another way doing things, let people make their own though drag and drop system, that is a good idea

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Why? How is 1,2,3 any harder then 1,1,1? I never understood this, people love to act like this game takes "skill" just because so many can't play?

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I don't get it either. Maybe they prefer to have instant access to all of their skills. Although to me it seems useless to trigger any skill without the combo itself.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Why? How is 1,2,3 any harder then 1,1,1? I never understood this, people love to act like this game takes "skill" just because so many can't play?

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Which requires more thought... pressing one button over and over, or knowing which of three buttons to press when? Clearly one is harder than the other. Is it a particularly tough challenge? No. But toss it in to chaotic environments like raids or dungeons and it helps provide a little extra challenge and depth to the game.

The only thing from PvP that should be brought over to PvE are the skill consolidations that should have been in place since the launch of Stormblood. It's completely ass backwards how they claimed they were reducing button bloat, yet still had numerous cases of needless bloat.

Dreadwyrm Trance + Deathflare
Summon Bahamut + Enkindle Bahamut
Leylines + Between the Lines
Enochian being a trait and not a needless button press - you lose access to everything when you drop AF/UI anyway

The list goes on. How can they justify having Nastrond replacing Geirskogul, yet leave shit like this in?

I don't think that putting combos like they are in PvP would dumb the game down at all. It's not any harder to press 1-2-3 in the right order with ~2-2.5s in between each button press than to press 1-1-1. If anything, by making these changes to PvE too, they'd have so much free room that they could add a LOT of new standalone skills based on job-specific mechanics and oGCDs that would actually increase the skill cap of the classes. Right now, we have so much buttons just for bland GCD combos that require no skill whatsoever to properly pull off, that it ultimately limits the number of buttons available for other interesting mechanics that they could add.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

The only thing from PvP that should be brought over to PvE are the skill consolidations that should have been in place since the launch of Stormblood. It's completely ass backwards how they claimed they were reducing button bloat, yet still had numerous cases of needless bloat.

Dreadwyrm Trance + Deathflare
Summon Bahamut + Enkindle Bahamut
Leylines + Between the Lines
Enochian being a trait and not a needless button press - you lose access to everything when you drop AF/UI anyway

The list goes on. How can they justify having Nastrond replacing Geirskogul, yet leave shit like this in?

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They did a great job with WAR, making Fell Cleave and Inner Beast share the same button, same for Decimate/Steel Cyclone and Unchained/Inner Release. And they also have Equilibrium since HW which could have been two seperate skills since it has completely different functions depending on the stance. But it's one button too. Why didn't they do the same for every job ? It's really awkward.

I would just like to bring up that console players don't have a whole command-panel at their disposal, and have to frequently cycle whole taskbars just to place the right ability under a button they can actually press. The taskbars aren't even all visible at the same time. So do keep in mind how much a one-button combo-sequence can mean to console players playing pve. They don't even necessarily have a keyboard to use, much less macros.

True depth and complexity need not be in form of button presses. Humans are not machines. We don't design a game meant to be played by machines, for humans to grind against. We can do better than this in designing a game for our players. I'm all for reducing button bloat and fake complexity.