Suggestion: S Rank Scaling System

With the addition of the mounting scrolls to the Allied Seals Vendor and the Centurio Tiger mount to the 3000A/2000S achievements, S hunts have become more popular than ever.

This has exposed a glaring issue that is: ARR and HW S marks are too squishy and can be killed in seconds since most hunters are at level 70. The result of this is that early and solo pulling are easily performed.

It is frustrating to see an S mark dying in seconds right as you are rushing towards it to tag it.

As such, I'd like to propose that ARR and HW S marks are put into an invisible FATE zone to scale players down. This makes it such that the S marks will not be killed in seconds, and will allow all players close to and/or above level 50 to be able to participate equally.

While scaling the marks to level 70 is another possible solution, it makes it unfair for the lower level players as they might not be able to tag the mark at all due to accuracy issues or get one-shotted.

Benefits of S Mark Scaling:

1) Early pulling will be less detrimental because the S marks will take some time to be killed

2) Solo pulling will not be worth the time, allowing more players to come together to kill the S mark

3) ARR and HW S marks will be much more engaging and fun to kill, since as it is right now, it's just a burn fest as opposed to the SB S marks, where you actually need to pay attention to AOEs and telegraphs

Thank you very much for the time taken to read and consider my suggestion to make S marks hunts more enjoyable.

You might be interested in this thread.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-difficulties

And you managed to consider an area I didn't: ARR S ranks. I was only thinking of expansion latest hunts so I missed the scenario of extreme disproportion in power.

If they can't scale the ARR S ranks, they could at least add some way to convert Centurio Seals to Allied Seals.

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Originally Posted by Royeaux

As such, I'd like to propose that ARR and HW S marks are scaled by a FATE zone for the ARR and HW S marks to scale players down.

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How would this work? Correct me if I'm wrong. The S rank will be inside an invisible FATE zone (not put on maps) and we need to sync down for it? I'm all for that.

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Originally Posted by Royeaux

3) S marks will be much more engaging and fun to kill

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There is absolutely nothing engaging or fun about hitting a mountain of HP.

@ExKage

The main reason to why I suggested making some changes to the S marks is because of the addition of the Centurio Tiger mount to the 3000 A mark and 2000 S mark achievements. 2000 S marks is a huge number and the long respawn timers of S marks make it already difficult enough to attain it.

With early pulls and S marks melting from 100 to 0 in seconds, it makes the achievement that much harder and discouraging to attempt.

@ElHeggunte

Absolutely, I agree, there's absolutely no fun in killing meatbags. But allow me to bring your attention to the current SB S marks such as Salt & Light and Bone Crawler. They are actually engaging to fight because their attacks actually do something and you need to be on your toes or you will die.

Compare this to the ARR S marks where everybody is just standing in AOEs because they barely scratch them and the marks themselves are dying in 10s, that's not very engaging and fun either.

I support this. ARR and HW marks shouldn't be level 50/level 60 content. It should always remain cap content. I would say even A ranks should be cap content.
So I agree, they should really sync them to level 70 stats and hp.

Right now there's nothing fun about the arr/hw hunt marks at all.

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Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu

How would this work? Correct me if I'm wrong. The S rank will be inside an invisible FATE zone (not put on maps) and we need to sync down for it? I'm all for that.

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Yes, that is the idea :)

What is being asked here? Is to scale up or down to the level of certain content?

Once we start going there for anything open world. It will eventually raise the question of should the entire world sync up or down to the players. GW2 and ESO do it, but they also have additional subsystems(Masteries and Champion System) to add progression when levels themselves are possibly rendered meaningless. Extra systems which Yoshi has gone on saying that he doesn't want to see in XIV anytime soon. That's part of the reason select-able attributes and job skill sharing got canned in favor of role skills.

A plus is content is never really out progressed so it last longer. But at the same time, progression sort of becomes pointless as you never really grow a ton stronger than content you did 5 years ago. One way around that is horizontal progression but it's a dirty word to these devs.

I sort of feel like we got the rug pulled from under us already to a point with jobs nerfs and sub class removal. Things around your level are taking longer to kill than before and most jobs have no reliable constant self healing skill which makes me a bit salty.

Personally, I'd rather levels caps not be raised period instead of everything synching on a global scale up or down. So at least older areas are not as challenging as something brand new. To me hunts are more-so a problem with how they are built with claiming and lack of engaging systems, over just let's tack Hit points on or sync it up or down. It's not like XIV open world was ever super challenging to begin with so maybe I am over analyzing stuff.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

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Hunts are unique beasts (pun intended) since they are intended to remain relevant content for max level players. The issue is since we out scale them so monstrously now, they die in seconds. ARR hunts can basically be solo'd now, which means if you aren't there instantly whenever they're called, you won't make it. More than a few people have suggested either scaling players down whenever they engage a hunt mob or scaling them up to max level. I don't see why the open world would need to be changed since it isn't meant for high level players whereas hunts are.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Hunts are unique beasts (pun intended) since they are intended to remain relevant content for max level players. The issue is since we out scale them so monstrously now, they die in seconds. ARR hunts can basically be solo'd now, which means if you aren't there instantly whenever they're called, you won't make it. More than a few people have suggested either scaling players down whenever they engage a hunt mob or scaling them up to max level. I don't see why the open world would need to be changed since it isn't meant for high level players whereas hunts are.

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Yes I know.

But why should ARR hunts be something done as often as HW or SB hunts is my question. ARR hunts was high level content for level 50, HW Hunts for level 60, SB should be for level 70. Starter areas were content created for levels 1-20ish. Zones are meant for high level players at that point in time when they are introduced as well.

Should all raids be kicked up to the current max level too? I am sure some people would say yes. I am in the camp of no. I didn't like it in ESO or GW2, I am pretty sure I won't like it here. Why have levels or ilvls in the first place if the content is going to kick you up or down?

Edit:
I think if every player is equal level then the issue is the design of hunts rather than just scaling.

Hunting mechanics, claim system, pop requirements.

I am reading here that stuff dies too fast or people don't wait for others. Even if an enemy has 1 billion HP, that doesn't mean much if you miss the window. Just as people miss Odin Fate or Ixion.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I don't see why the open world would need to be changed since it isn't meant for high level players whereas hunts are.

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There is nothing changed. Hunts is a zone element, spawning and engaging them requires each zone conditions.
People can't pull all the way outside the zone, or even its spawn area (that would be resetting).
All that's suggested to be added is a sync down button, the "FATE" element is already there.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I support this. ARR and HW marks shouldn't be level 50/level 60 content. It should always remain cap content. I would say even A ranks should be cap content.
So I agree, they should really sync them to level 70 stats and hp.

Right now there's nothing fun about the arr/hw hunt marks at all.

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I would disagree that all hunts should be max level content. Remember that hunts are unlocked at 50 and if ARR hunts are at 70, the new 50 hunter wouldn't even cause a scratch on the hunt. I thinks it's best to keep the ARR 50, HW 60 and SB 70 and scale the player down to the hunt level to even out the playing field and make the fight last longer and fun.

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Originally Posted by Antonio_Xul

I would disagree that all hunts should be max level content. Remember that hunts are unlocked at 50 and if ARR hunts are at 70, the new 50 hunter wouldn't even cause a scratch on the hunt. I thinks it's best to keep the ARR 50, HW 60 and SB 70 and scale the player down to the hunt level to even out the playing field and make the fight last longer and fun.

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Hm I think you're right, it's better to make them special fates where we sync to their level than make them level 70

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Hm I think you're right, it's better to make them special fates where we sync to their level than make them level 70

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agreed. Personally, I would also like to see it's health scale to the number of players engaging it, so that past a minimum it takes roughly the same amount of time to kill.
Example:
5 players: 5m to kill an S rank
10 players: 3m to kill
50 players: 3m to kill

5 and 3m are just examples. The point being that the scaling should always guarantee a minimum amount of engagement to kill it, and would dynamically adjust as players join the fight.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Yes I know.

But why should ARR hunts be something done as often as HW or SB hunts is my question.

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Because the devs decided they should be relevant for max level players, so either make them unrewarding enough that no one at 70 will want to do them (and find another way to buy mount speed increases) or fix the balance issue with level 70s overpowering a level 50 hunt.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

But why should ARR hunts be something done as often as HW or SB hunts is my question. ARR hunts was high level content for level 50, HW Hunts for level 60, SB should be for level 70. Starter areas were content created for levels 1-20ish. Zones are meant for high level players at that point in time when they are introduced as well.

Should all raids be kicked up to the current max level too? I am sure some people would say yes. I am in the camp of no. I didn't like it in ESO or GW2, I am pretty sure I won't like it here. Why have levels or ilvls in the first place if the content is going to kick you up or down?

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Because that isn't how hunts work. The devs designed them to be relevant content for make level players. No one touches a ARR hunt when they hit 50. Raids, on the other hand, are only made relevant for specific patch windows. You aren't compare the two since they aren't designed remotely with the same intent. Like Alimdia said, they either need to restrict old hunts to players at that level or do some sort of scaling so they aren't murdered within seconds. Personally, if they do the former, all outs outside Stormblood will become dead content no one touches since there won't be enough level 50 to kill S ranks and why would level 70 players bother if the rewards suck? But therein lies the problem. They devs seem to believe level 50 levels actually attempt ARR hunts. They don't. Those hunts get sniped by max level players the moment they spawn.

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Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu

There is nothing changed. Hunts is a zone element, spawning and engaging them requires each zone conditions.
People can't pull all the way outside the zone, or even its spawn area (that would be resetting).
All that's suggested to be added is a sync down button, the "FATE" element is already there.

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I'm aware. Read the person who I quoted. They were attempt to draw correlation between raids, open world trash mobs and hunts. When that isn't how hunts are designed.

Make the hp of the S rank reset to 100% anytime an attack is received from a new player entering the fray. Early pulling, quick kills all addressed. You all can thank me later.

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Because that isn't how hunts work. The devs designed them to be relevant content for make level players. No one touches a ARR hunt when they hit 50. Raids, on the other hand, are only made relevant for specific patch windows. You aren't compare the two since they aren't designed remotely with the same intent. Like Alimdia said, they either need to restrict old hunts to players at that level or do some sort of scaling so they aren't murdered within seconds. Personally, if they do the former, all outs outside Stormblood will become dead content no one touches since there won't be enough level 50 to kill S ranks and why would level 70 players bother if the rewards suck? But therein lies the problem. They devs seem to believe level 50 levels actually attempt ARR hunts. They don't. Those hunts get sniped by max level players the moment they spawn.

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The devs designed any content besides the MSQ to be for max level players in each expansion. The intent is to allow players to participate in hunts starting at 50 so everything would not be locked at max level, the same intent that has certain fate bosses at higher levels, the same intent that has raids at higher ilevels.

No one would touch older raids if not for glamour, no one would play lower level dungeons on higher level characters if not for tombstones or big experience boons. If people do older content which they do, then all rewards must not suck for those specific contents. Which I why I said the problem with hunts is the systems in place. Actual mechanics besides run here and hit this first, special spawn conditions via hunting prey, a revised claiming system, etc. And if that doesn't fix it then the rewards should be revised as well. Sure, something must be done to prevent max level players from obliterating everything in sight. The only argument we have is some are saying a level sync feature is the fix. I am saying actual systems and rewards should be the right fix so there is progression for 50-whatever max cap is.

I am sure a max level player doesn't find it inherently fun to steam roll over anything or we wouldn't get the complaints about tying relics behind low levels fates.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Why have levels or ilvls in the first place if the content is going to kick you up or down?

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I don't think it have to synch down the level of the player. Synching down the level of the gear should be enough. The players keep all their skills for the S Rank, but with much less power.

I am with re-scaling the S ranks in ARR & HW both, with all players ultimately reaching Lv.70. I won't be specific and trust the developers to come with a solution for this soon enough.
I do believe S ranks which takes +60 hours to respawn -and not to mention triggered- should deserve more than a 30-90 seconds fight!!

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

There is absolutely nothing engaging or fun about hitting a mountain of HP.

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As if there is FUN killing an S rank Hunt in 20 seconds! I can't see that facetanking with your mighty iLevel raises any Adrenaline.

Also, where is the fun in killing a mob (S rank Lv.50) that does 'no damage' to you (Lv.70 i340)?! Unless you felt superior when you were Lv.25 and killwd Lv.3 Ladybugs outside Limsa Lominsa in 10 secs?

Not to mention, if some players really like killing those easy-to-kill-now S ranks fast before others get by. I think they have some personality/social problems feeding from trolling (I feel sad for them).

This idea seems like it wouldn't be to hard to implement and I can totally get behind this cas in all honesty I gave up on hunts cas there killed before I can get to them and half the time ARR hunts arnt even called

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Originally Posted by Kuwaitum

As if there is FUN killing an S rank Hunt in 20 seconds! I can't see that facetanking with your mighty iLevel raises any Adrenaline.

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I never said it was? All I'm saying is simply juicing a Hunt's HP and/or damage while leaving them otherwise mechanically unchanged is the antithesis of fun. That's called fake difficulty and is something developers should avoid doing. That's exactly what SE did for overworld mobs at the start of HW and people hated it.

This is simply a case where old content shouldn't continually be shoehorned into relevance, especially not with a short-term solution like cramming Hunts into FATEs. It may work for now, but when players once again run out of carrots on sticks to chase and stop caring about Hunts it's just going to wind up making it harder to low-man or solo the Hunts later on.

It's already hard enough to get people to show up to SB A and S-ranks and that's without making them require a small army to kill.

I don't even bother to call ARR A-ranks anymore because no one ever shows up for them when I do. I call and wait or call and then go off to do what I was in the area for in the first place, only to come back ~10 minutes later to find the Hunt still sitting there wondering if I ignored him because he did something to offend me. So now I usually just kill them when I see them. The same thing is starting to happen with SB A-ranks, too though I still see the occasional announcement for those.

So the only thing forcing them into FATEs is bound to do is cause them to go to waste eventually because then they'd be impossible to solo, but you wouldn't be able to gather enough people for them either. Just like how no one really ever bothers with Odin or Behemoth anymore. Their FATEs used to crash severs and now the people who show up to them wouldn't even pack a LeBaron.

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Also, where is the fun in killing a mob (S rank Lv.50) that does 'no damage' to you (Lv.70 i340)?! Unless you felt superior when you were Lv.25 and killwd Lv.3 Ladybugs outside Limsa Lominsa in 10 secs?

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Again, I never said anything of the sort. You're reading a lot into a very clear, very specific 13-word sentence that I wrote in response to a very specific point made by the OP (that they've since edited for clarity).

Crazy concept, but it's possible that I find that neither scenario is fun. It's just far less fun hitting a mob that still poses very little threat to you except now it has 10x the HP it used to so it takes you 15 minutes to kill it. Putting them into FATEs and thus making them take longer to kill might help more people earn kill credit, but we're fooling ourselves if we think that'll make the Hunts any more "fun" than they are now.

Personally, I've never seen anyone say a hunt is fun. I've also only ever seen people complaining about early pulling (doesn't exist) and want changes to hunts when they want everyone and their grandmothers have the ability to benefit from a hunt, not realizing they are shooting themselves in the foot. If you want to understand what I mean, look to the first iteration of the Diadem. When you have so many players, it becomes drastically hard to gain contribution. Instead of people being able to gain gold/full credit, everyone gets silver/middling credit, or bronze/little credit.

Scaling up monsters, or scaling down players, is a horrible thing to have present when hunts aren't popular or on servers with fewer players in population. Look before Stormblood dropped and most people were on break waiting for the expansion. Very few people were engaging hunts and it become the norm to wait for more people. This is "fine" when there's nothing else going on and you've nothing to prep for. Right now, I think of having to deal with being scaled down or having hunts scaled up and all I can think of is "if it takes me 5 minutes just to kill a hunt, plus possibly 3 to 5 minutes waiting for other people because of social peer pressure, that's a good 8 to 10 minutes I could have done something progressive elsewhere." Touching back on keeping lower population servers in mind, remember they can have population droughts, too, when content is lacking. When SE implements this stuff, like many other games, they put in only one iteration in their game. Meaning, whatever changes they place will be the same on a high population server as there will be on a low population server.

People keep throwing around the phrase 'hunts were designed to be relevant content for max level players.' If you mean solely do-able by max levels, you'd be incorrect. You can engage hunts earlier, but will need more players to do so. If you mean relevant for max level players because of gear, you'd still be wrong. Most of the things hunts give you are glamour, materia (arguably needed at any level and have multiple ways to acquire besides just hunts), but other than that, they've only offered things meant as a means for players to catch up. Usually, it comes in the form of tomestone gear upgrades- relevant to players that do not raid, or whose team have not passed the fights to gain certain upgrades (no judgement here, they could have just started). And fluffy collectibles.

All in all, hunts are about as relevant as the Gold Saucer, but due to social expectations or peer pressure, garner more ire and demands for changes that may or may not actually benefit the activity in the long run. The tiger mount is supposed to be as time consuming as the mentor mount or Fenrir.

Maybe a system like Odin would work. For example, Safat (or any ARR/HW hunt) scales up every time you kill it, up to level 70. On the other hand, if people cannot kill him and it is sitting spawned in the overworld with only one or two people there, for every 5-10 minutes the hunt is spawned it scales down all the way to the hunt's original level. This would be beneficial for both large and small servers.

There does not seem to be dynamically in-fight scaling mechanic existing in the game. Even Fates are scaled on spawn, and not during fight, even if the latter would be more fair and logical to the actual number of participants.

I guess that's why the game uses some sort of work-around to estimate how to scale each Fate on spawn.
Before 4.0 it was based on the number of participants that just completed the previous same Fate spawn. Since 4.0 it's based on the number of participants that have completed the last nearby other Fate.

So I would not be surprised if there is a current limitation of the game engine, that prevent creatures from auto-scaling dynamically once spawned.

On a side-note I notice "city hunters" complaining that an ARR S Rank died before they could arrive to kill it.
What I mean by "city hunters" is people never helping to trigger an S rank but just camping in town or doing something else just waiting for someone to call for an S rank in some Linkshell.
If you don't partipate in spawning an S rank, then you should not complain about not being present fast enough to kill it.

Otherwise a workaround without involving scaling could be that any S rank spawn with a temporary invulnerability buff ( 1, 2, 3 .. minutes?) so it gives enough time to players actively hunting it to spot it and be able to kill it before some other hunting group or random bypassers do it.

The easiest soluition actually is making allied seal coming off something else, making content scaling up kinda defeats the purpose of power progress of RPG which is a feature of the genre, consider that this problem comes of some commodity or benefit we get off old S ranks if those commodity were not to be, we wouldn't be having this conversation and soloing old bosses wouldn't be considered such a damnable offense