Monk 's Riddle of Fire feels awful to use

Monk has always been a Job that thrived on the flow of it's abilities. More so than other jobs, when you played it, you felt fast and fluid. The constant re-positioning, the buildup of attack speed, you may not have hit the hardest per shot, but it felt incredibly clean to play, and that was the appeal for myself and thousand of other players for the past 4 years.

One of the biggest selling points for this expansion was the idea that the Dev team would "breathe new life into existing jobs", which, they did with most classes. Some classes, however, such as Monk, saw the life sucked out of them. Deep Meditation and Brotherhood are fine, if a little under-tuned. Riddle of Earth would be useless if not for the Greased Lightning reset, so it's at least passable. Riddle of Fire, however, if awful. Sure, it's a DPS increase, but the attack speed penalty kills the flow of the class, and every time one uses it, they find themselves wanting it to end as soon as possible.

They claimed they would breathe new life into the Jobs. Monk is one of the poster boys for the xpac, and all they did was suck life out of it in exchange for some more uppercuts. It's not a worthwhile trade. For the vast majority of players, a Job being fun is infinitely more important than the job doing high DPS. Riddle of Fire does not contribute to this ideal.

Every monk I've talked to loves Riddle of Fire, so this is a sweeping generalization at best.

You've spoken to very few monks then.
A select few people will like it, for sure. However, those people only care about the damage it gives them, rather than how it feels to use.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Every monk I've talked to loves Riddle of Fire, so this is a sweeping generalization at best.

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On the opposite all the monks I know hate the mechanic of riddle of fire but are satisfied with dps end of it.

Anectodal is anectodal

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

On the opposite all the monks I know hate the mechanic of riddle of fire but are satisfied with dps end of it.

Anectodal is anectodal

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Yes.

That's the point.

Claiming something and supporting that view via 'these people said' is invalid at best, especially when less than 1% of the active subscriptions are represented on this forum.

I agree with you, i love RoF. Ppl act like they gave monks cast bar charged attacks or something. Lol

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Originally Posted by Nagamasa_87

I agree with you, i love RoF. Ppl act like they gave monks cast bar charged attacks or something. Lol

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I for one would welcome a cast bar charged attack on Monk. That would feel impactful. It's one of the most enjoyable parts of Samurai, after all. Riddle of Fire is not impactful. There's no buildup to it, no sensible pacing. It's clunky, even if it is functional.

RoF adds a nice marked change-up in the flow of the fight. It breaks the pace up into something slower and harder. Pair RoF with Brotherhood and get some Forbidden Chakras to weave with, along with the majority, if not all, other oGCDs that sync with RoF timing. You get to double-weave so much, which is rare for us while GL3 is up. It actually feels faster paced, and I feel pressed to fit everything into that window. And when infusion of strength is off cooldown, much wow. I feel like each hit has so much more oomph during RoF/Brotherhood. I love it.

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Originally Posted by FoodAspectedPrimal

I for one would welcome a cast bar charged attack on Monk.

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Wouldn't a cast bar attack feel more clunky as it interrupts the flow of GCD/oGCDs? I would not enjoy introducing an animation lock into a fast and fluid class.

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Originally Posted by bobbot

RoF adds a nice marked change-up in the flow of the fight. Wouldn't a cast bar attack feel more clunky as it interrupts the flow of GCD/oGCDs? I would not enjoy introducing an animation lock into a fast and fluid class.

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so long as the cast bar is shorter than or equal to the global cooldown, it would be acceptable when you have no OGCDs off cooldown. In truth I don't actually want any cast bars on Monk. I simply humoured the idea since it was brought up, as a way to compare and prove my original point. Even a cast bar weaponskill would feel better than Riddle of Fire.

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Originally Posted by FoodAspectedPrimal

I for one would welcome a cast bar charged attack on Monk. That would feel impactful. It's one of the most enjoyable parts of Samurai, after all. Riddle of Fire is not impactful. There's no buildup to it, no sensible pacing. It's clunky, even if it is functional.

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But your problem with RoF is you feel it slows you down to much? I couldn't imagine how clunky and slow monks would feel with cast bar charges attacks. Just wouldn't fit monk. Sure with sam it fits the naturally slower hard hitting style but imo RoF is perfect the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Every monk I've talked to loves Riddle of Fire, so this is a sweeping generalization at best.

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I think this is more the opinion of long time Monk players.
Most Monks play the job because it's fast and active. It's our identity to be fast and constantly moving.
RoF goes completely against that just to give us more damage. It feels like it's going against the identity of Monk, which really sucks.

That's probably a matter of preference or character design. I haven't leveled my monk yet, but I'm sure I will enjoy RoF, simply because it's a Roegadyn with massive hits.

However, a big boost of chakra generation during RoF would have made the feel more interesting, maybe ?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Every monk I've talked to loves Riddle of Fire, so this is a sweeping generalization at best.

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All the Monks I've met loves Riddle of Fire's damage, but have given varying degrees of negative responses towards the mechanic itself.

I love the damage the move gives me, I don't really have a problem with the give and take of this move as I am overly taken by the damage it allows me to produce.

If there's anything I wish they would change is brotherhoods effect. I could careless if it gives me 5%, I just wish for our only raid dps utility skill would be like everyone else's ultility skill and it blessed all types of damage dealers with increased attack power and not just physical dps.

i can live with RoF, but tackle mastery? why even?

The problem with monk is it's been the same since ARR. And we didn't get a single new offensive skill for SB, the supposed monk expansion.

As far as RoF goes, eh... it grows on you. With enough SS you hardly notice the slower speed.

It's functional, but I utterly despise using it. Some people say it grows on you but for me it's exactly as contrary to what I want from the job as it was Day 1.

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Originally Posted by JinRoSul

As far as RoF goes, eh... it grows on you. With enough SS you hardly notice the slower speed.

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This is the problem. You should never have to "get used to" a class mechanic, and you should never feel the need to find a way to try and ignore it. That, in and of itself, is proof that there's a fundamental problem. Not everyone has the patience to wait around until they are "used to it".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Every monk I've talked to lov-

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No. Talking to you right now to say it sucks.

I can't be the only one that thinks the complaints about RoF are hilarious, right?

Like, it's 20 seconds of slightly lower skill speed. Twenty. Seconds. That's it. You spend 20 seconds out of every 90 attacking as slowly as a DRG and your entire universe comes crumbling down around you.

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Originally Posted by knotwrite

I can't be the only one that thinks the complaints about RoF are hilarious, right?

Like, it's 20 seconds of slightly lower skill speed. Twenty. Seconds. That's it. You spend 20 seconds out of every 90 attacking as slowly as a DRG and your entire universe comes crumbling down around you.

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I know, it's rather bizarre - how is it that introducing an ability that slows down the pace of a rotation, for about a fifth of a fight's overall duration, to a class that has had consistently paced rotation for years, and a sizable portion of longstanding players find it annoying? Boggles the mind. Really makes my noggin think.

20 seconds is roughly 9 global cooldowns at the slower speed (ie 3 standard combos) which is, as was already pointed out, a little over 20% uptime. That's not a small amount at all.

So yes, you're the only one. Congratulations.

I've mained monk since T4 was a thing.

The burst / dps wise? Fantastic. No one is going to complain about that.

It feels like utter crap. Punching under water. It's infuriating and I hate it also. However, seeing the SB changes and consequent "fixes" for Summoner and Machinist, I'm hesitant to kick up a fuss about Riddle. There was literally nothing wrong with Summoner 3.0 rotation, it was neat, it flowed, cooldowns lined up, it was perfect. Look what happened.

Yeah, SE has ignored Monk every expansion but better the devil you know at this point. ^

RIP Smns.

Riddle of Fire is a great skill, but it's also a feels like shit skill. There's a difference. Just because the numbers are good doesn't mean it's a good skill because it turns the Monk class into mindless button mashing for thirty seconds.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

mindless button mashing

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I thought this was the case for all melee DPS 24/7? (please don't hit me)

More on the point, would RoF be less frustrating if there were more oGCD to weave (and double-weave) over the duration? For example: Reduce the damage boost of RoF, but make Tornado Kick "free" for the duration. With TC's 10s cooldown, that's two more off-global skills within RoF's duration.

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

I thought this was the case for all melee DPS 24/7? (please don't hit me)

More on the point, would RoF be less frustrating if there were more oGCD to weave (and double-weave) over the duration? For example: Reduce the damage boost of RoF, but make Tornado Kick "free" for the duration. With TC's 10s cooldown, that's two more off-global skills within RoF's duration.

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I've actually discussed this at length with an FC mate regarding Riddle of Earth. Right now it's additional effect of extending Greased Lightning only triggers with Earth's Reply, meaning it's only useful during transition phases, which eliminates Tornado Kick's whole purpose: used before transitions since you'd lose stacks anyway. Essentially Tornado Kick and Riddle of Earth are competing for the same spot on your hotbar (because let's face it, all that stuff about Damage Reduction is reallyjust flavour text).

The idea we came up with was, instead of extending greased lightning, Earth's Reply would grant a stack of something akin to Polyglot on Black Mage which allowed the use of a single Tornado Kick without removing your Greased Lightning. This was mostly inspired by the benchmark trailer where the Warrior of Light is seen using Riddle of Earth and immediately casting Tornado Kick. It was what we actually thought it would do, originally.

In reference to your point about more OGCDs, I don't think that solves the overarching problem. Even if you had more OGCDs, optimization would still need to take animation lock into account (referring to animations preventing the trigger of the next skill or ability in the queue), meaning the optimal way to take full advantage of this would vary from person to person, depending on their latency. In most cases, the best option would be to make Skill Speed a dump stat, which just further exacerbates the problem of RoF feeling like mud. Seasoned Monks know the global rotation like an extension of themselves, and no amount of OGCD weaving is going to distract them from the massive drop in flow RoF hits you with at lower Skill Speeds.

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Originally Posted by FoodAspectedPrimal

..., meaning it's only useful during transition phases, which eliminates Tornado Kick's whole purpose....

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It seems to be useful in 4s during Decisive Battle (at least that's what I see some monk in my 4s runs did), in fact I'm almost sure they created this skill for this sole purpose, prolonged Simon says phase where you can attack stuff but also not quiet a big phase transition (Perfect Balance not up yet).

Of course this doesn't mean it's a good skill.

I like RoF, I don't like the slow. The damage increase is cool, I can dig that. But if I use too many OCDs and have none for RoF its kind of lame, but that's user error. I also haven't done any raiding content, only dungeons so I'm not sure how valid my case is. Generally I just accept it slows me and live with it.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

It seems to be useful in 4s during Decisive Battle (at least that's what I see some monk in my 4s runs did), in fact I'm almost sure they created this skill for this sole purpose, prolonged Simon says phase where you can attack stuff but also not quiet a big phase transition (Perfect Balance not up yet).

Of course this doesn't mean it's a good skill.

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The sad thing about Riddle of Earth is even in that situation you can still just get completely screwed out of your stacks if he teleports somewhere other than where you're standing and uses Thunder III.

They could have reduced Perfect Balance's cooldown to 60 seconds like how Enochian and Blood of the Dragon were reduced to 30 seconds and had it always be readily available but noooooo we had to get a hyper situational skill instead.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

The sad thing about Riddle of Earth is even in that situation you can still just get completely screwed out of your stacks if he teleports somewhere other than where you're standing and uses Thunder III.

They could have reduced Perfect Balance's cooldown to 60 seconds like how Enochian and Blood of the Dragon were reduced to 30 seconds and had it always be readily available but noooooo we had to get a hyper situational skill instead.

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I think that's also partly due to Exdeath RNG bullshittery in general.

If it's Blizz 3 your casters get screwed.
If it's Thunder 3 your melees get screwed.
If it's Fire 3 everyone gets fucked screwed.

Not to mention RNG blackhole placement later.

inb4 in pvp u shot ppl :(

Riddle of Fire & Riddle of Earth aside, I'm still confused how the 10% blunt resistance from Dragon Kick made it pass the major job change. We thought in ARR that SE may add a new blunt DPS class in the future or change the debuff to slashing, but after a major job change... we are still BLUNT RESISTANCE!

And the new classes NIN/Samurai adds SLASH RESISTANCE! WHAT!? Hello? What's going on here? The 5% physical buff of brotherhood also limits its potential, when it could be a full party buff. To make things worse, sometimes you get charka so quick that you cannot use the 2nd Forbidden Charka because its still on CD so you ended up wasting potential Charka.

Edit: Also on the matter of tornado kick, I think the option to use it once for free every time we get 5 Charka or beyond 5 Charka (I suppose a system change is required) would be nice. That would help improve MNK's DPS so much more, while reducing job difficulty. Or making allowing Fist of Wind to add a buff for free tornado kick use, would also help make that pointless stance much more useful!

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Every monk I've talked to loves Riddle of Fire, so this is a sweeping generalization at best.

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If they love it, they love it because it is a DPS increase which no Monk is in disagreement with. Those that dislike it (myself included), recognize that but still see it for the flow disruption, and just about equally bad how clunky it makes our opener.

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Originally Posted by Nagamasa_87

But your problem with RoF is you feel it slows you down to much? I couldn't imagine how clunky and slow monks would feel with cast bar charges attacks. Just wouldn't fit monk. Sure with sam it fits the naturally slower hard hitting style but imo RoF is perfect the way it is.

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Cast bar doesn't mean you're slow? Managing what you can get away with using a cast bar and movement does have a nice feel too in terms of playing a job optimally. Obviously cast bars don't make sense for Monks as they are today, but there could be a totally different Monk design with cast bars that would be fine. Or an element added to them using cast bars that's fine. Samurai is kind of proof that you can have cast bars on a job and still have it be OK.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yes.

That's the point.

Claiming something and supporting that view via 'these people said' is invalid at best, especially when less than 1% of the active subscriptions are represented on this forum.

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Where in OP's entire post said "they said or all monks don't" they said "you" but it's the ops perspective same with following comment. I'm responding to the person who was ACTUALLY using anectodal evidence

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Originally Posted by bobbot

Wouldn't a cast bar attack feel more clunky as it interrupts the flow of GCD/oGCDs? I would not enjoy introducing an animation lock into a fast and fluid class.

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It's probably a matter of the frequency. Generally, a cast sacrifices the possibility of a double-weave to even a single-weave, while also costing movement. Used sparingly, it can feel impactful without feeling contradictory.

Take a spitball skill like "Sovereign Fist" for example, wherein you can charge the skill from 60% to 100% of a GCD in order to increase its damage and extend its maximum dash range before charging and striking the target on release... or, an ability that turns your next weaponskill into the same, increasing its direct damage tremendously but giving it a charge time (and dash). Granted, neither needs to restrict movement; casts thus far do, but this is still a decision—not a necessity of coding. Certain Monks may well find damage bonuses given through such dynamics fit better than simply, in effect, turning off Greased Lightning temporarily.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's probably a matter of the frequency. Generally, a cast sacrifices the possibility of a double-weave to even a single-weave, while also costing movement. Used sparingly, it can feel impactful without feeling contradictory.

Take a spitball skill like "Sovereign Fist" for example, wherein you can charge the skill from 60% to 100% of a GCD in order to increase its damage and extend its maximum dash range before charging and striking the target on release... or, an ability that turns your next weaponskill into the same, increasing its direct damage tremendously but giving it a charge time (and dash). Granted, neither needs to restrict movement; casts thus far do, but this is still a decision—not a necessity of coding. Certain Monks may well find damage bonuses given through such dynamics fit better than simply, in effect, turning off Greased Lightning temporarily.

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Honestly that sounds pretty engaging, and a great skill for dealing with PBAoEs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Take a spitball skill like "Sovereign Fist" for example, wherein you can charge the skill from 60% to 100% of a GCD in order to increase its damage and extend its maximum dash range before charging and striking the target on release... or, an ability that turns your next weaponskill into the same, increasing its direct damage tremendously but giving it a charge time (and dash). Granted, neither needs to restrict movement; casts thus far do, but this is still a decision—not a necessity of coding. Certain Monks may well find damage bonuses given through such dynamics fit better than simply, in effect, turning off Greased Lightning temporarily.

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I'm actually on board with this idea. YOSHI, GET TESTING!