Let's "flesh out" role actions

I have an idea on how to better "flesh out" role actions. For every job, not just tanks, but we'll focus on tanks here. The long and the short of it is: let's make other role actions work similar to how role actions and Intervention work together.

For those that don't know, Intervention is a skill PLD gets at 62 that allows them to throw a 10% damage reduction shield on a friendly target for 6s. This damage reduction can be increased up to 20 or 30%, but only if the PLD is also under the effect of Rampart or Sentinel. This creates some interesting decision-making; do you, as a PLD, sacrifice some personal defense in exchange for granting more damage reduction to a party member? Or do you just throw the normal Intervention on them and hope the 10% reduction is enough? That's an interesting question, and it adds some meaningful complexity to the skill.

Now, the big part here is that Rampart also affects it. Rampart, as we know, is a role action. If Rampart can affect individual job skills in such a way, why not other skills?

Hell, why not have role actions that include specific job-unique effects to them?

Without further ado, here are my initial ideas.

Provoke - for WAR, adds a 15s Bloodbath effect following usage.
Ultimatum - same as provoke, only it lasts for 20s.
Reasoning - WAR lost a lot of sustain, and this has really hurt the job. It doesn't feel nearly as fun, or self-sufficient, as it did before. This gives back a lot of that self-sufficiency, but to do so you have to blow some cooldowns, and if you're not MT "toe the line" of aggro in order to make the most of it. Reward with risk.

Convalescence - for DRK; each heal that comes from an outside source (including HoT ticks) grants 5 Blood. For PLD; each heal that comes from an outside source restores 5% of that heals' HP in MP (HoT ticks would also count).
Reasoning - more meaningful decision making. DRK can now use Conv as a DPS cooldown when OTing, at the cost of losing it should they need it to tank. The idea of turning outside sources of "energy" into Blood just fits right. PLD can now utilize Conv for it's normal benefits, but also as an MP refresh of sorts. And yes, SCH faerie healing would count. It probably balances out given how HoT's affect it.

Anticipation - for DRK, just bring back DA+DD effect, and also add that using Anticipation resets the CD on Reprisal.
Reasoning - DRK lost a solid defensive CD when it lost Dark Dance. Adding it back in is something that just needs to happen imo. The reset on Reprisal means a DRK, whether as MT or OT, can bring 10s of continuous Reprisal debuff if needed, or else use it as an early reset to deal with upcoming raid-wide damage.

Awareness - for WAR in addition to it's normal crit immunity and while in Deliverance, grants the full Deliverance-stance crit bonus (10%) for the duration of the skill. This would not stack with (and thus would override) the normal beast gauge crit bonus. While in Defiance, the full parry bonus is granted, again overriding the beast gauge.
Reasoning - One of the detriments behind the WAR stances is that there's already a baked-in cost beyond the gauge cost; every time you use a gauge skill, you're losing 2-5% parry or crit. Being able to maintain the full 10% crit or parry for certain periods of time would be a great boon, and give incentive to use Awareness outside of just pairing it with RI.

Those are the extent of the ideas I have for now. I think adding stuff like this would go a long way to adding more meaningful choice, at least to some things *coughprovokecough* as well as give each tank class, especially DRK and WAR, some much needed complexity. Give me your thoughts and feedback.

I'mma say no to specific job bonuses. They just need to be better as a baseline so there's actual choice.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Provoke - for WAR
Convalescence - for DRK
Awareness - for WAR

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So, basically, while most role skills are past native PLD skills, they would all be better now for something other than PLD ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, basically, while most role skills are past native PLD skills, they would all be better now for something other than PLD ?

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Skills lost:
WAR - Bloodbath, Fracture, Foresight, Mercy Stroke, Brutal Swing
DRK - Reprisal, Scourge, Delirium (combo), Shadowskin, Low Blow, Dark Dance
PLD - "Rampart," "Conv," "Provoke," "Awareness"

Skills that can be reclaimed via role actions:
WAR - 0-1, if you count Rampart as a much better Foresight
DRK - 3ish. Reprisal (heavily nerfed), Delirium (as buff with 120s CD, not combo), Shadowskin (as Rampart), Dark Dance (as Anticipation)
PLD - all of them.

I have more buttons to push on my PLD at 66 then I do on my WAR at 70, and that's counting the "double up" from IB/SC and FC/Deci.

Let's be honest, most people on this forum have played all 3 tanks extensively at 60, and if they're not already at 70 with all 3, then they're on their way. Quit it with this intra-tank rivalry BS. Have the balls to actually propose an idea for criticism instead of just throwing out completely unjustified thinly-veiled PLD butthurt.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I'mma say no to specific job bonuses. They just need to be better as a baseline so there's actual choice.

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See, she disagrees with me, and I disagree with her. I think my idea is great, but I also think what she's saying has merit. I proposed my idea because it seems like SE just cannot see the forest before the trees when it comes to the role actions (and really, WAR/DRK in general). And also because I enjoy discussion with my fellow tanks.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Skills lost:
WAR - Bloodbath, Fracture, Foresight, Mercy Stroke, Brutal Swing
DRK - Reprisal, Scourge, Delirium (combo), Shadowskin, Low Blow, Dark Dance
PLD - "Rampart," "Conv," "Provoke," "Awareness"

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PLD also lost Foresight, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke in case you remember something called cross-class back then.

And, as far as I know, more buttons have nothing to do with how well a job performs. You realize that, if DRK was able to put a continuous -10% damage, like you suggest, it would only make it the new mandatory tank for progression and the best tank for raidwide mitigation miles above WAR and PLD, right ?

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Originally Posted by Quor

Have the balls to actually propose an idea for criticism instead of just throwing out completely unjustified thinly-veiled PLD butthurt.

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I would have if your idea was not just a disguised "Give us back what we lost" for WAR and DRK. Bloodbath is gone, accept it and move on. And frankly, with the current Dark Arts, you wouldn't spend a single one of it on an Evasion boost, so anticipation is Dark Dance.

On top of that, I should point out that role skills are especially made to be shared skills within a role, so they should not carry any job's identity.

Hi OP +1ing you. A solid idea~

I don't care how we get it, please give Warrior and Dark Knight more identity and utility and flexibility.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

PLD also lost Foresight, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke in case you remember something called cross-class back then.

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Dp you always condescend to people who suggest original ideas, or are you crushing on me? Of course I remember. PLD has self-sustain w/o Bloodbath. WAR has none, unless they feel like sitting in Defiance the whole time (and no, SP combo's don't make up for anything). So I certainly don't feel the loss of BB on my PLD, nor do I feel the loss of Foresight (even with PLD's natively higher def due to shield Foresight was still trash). Mercy Stroke was a solid addition to WAR, and something PLD/DRK used maybe twice in a boss fight. Whatever PLD lost from Mercy Stroke they more than made up for with the addition of Requiescat and Holy Spirit. WAR gained more dmg with Upheaval and Onslaught, but again lost sustain because a 40s CD Mercy Stroke meant it was up for every other solo fight, and useable with enough frequency in 4-mans that you could get some nice clutch healing with it.

But this is all beside the main point; PLD has absolutely nothing to complain about. They came out of SB glowing like the sun. They're in a great place where they are now, with both functionality and fun. WAR and DRK are functional, and certainly have moments of fun, but it's nothing like it used to be in HW, and nothing close to what it's like playing PLD.

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And, as far as I know, more buttons have nothing to do with how well a job performs. You realize that, if DRK was able to put a continuous -10% damage, like you suggest, it would only make it the new mandatory tank for progression and the best tank for raidwide mitigation miles above WAR and PLD, right ?

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More buttons means more options. FFS DRK has, for all intents and purposes, a single combo. WAR and PLD at least have two they use regularly. You should also re-read my initial post; nowhere did I say the -10% damage would be "continuous" as in "up 100% of the time." The continuous was intended as an analogy for "back-to-back" in this specific instance. Hence why it would be tied to the Anticipation CD, meaning you could only get a double Reprsial if you blew Anticipation to reset the Reprisal CD.

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I would have if your idea was not just a disguised "Give us back what we lost" for WAR and DRK. Bloodbath is gone, accept it and move on. And frankly, with the current Dark Arts, you wouldn't spend a single one of it on an Evasion boost, so anticipation is Dark Dance.

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As great and fun as 8-mans are, 4-mans are still a big part of this game, and something I miss on my DRK is that wonderful DA+DP+DA+DD evasion tanking you can do, becoming near-immortal against a horde of your enemies. Maybe it's not the min/max way to play things, but it sure as hell was fun.

You know fun right? Haven't forgot it? This idea of "we have to balance the entire game around 8-man savage OR ELSE" needs to die already. Of course, the better question to ask is why do you insist on WAR and DRK being second class tanks when it comes to complexity and playstyle?

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Hi OP +1ing you. A solid idea~

I don't care how we get it, please give Warrior and Dark Knight more identity and utility and flexibility.

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Ty, that was the general idea. Something, anything, to make things more interesting. On PLD it feels like I have an answer for everything. On my WAR, the only answers I have are to take damage and to deal it. If someone is low and I'm on my PLD, I have an answer for that. If someone needs a bit more dmg reduction to tank a raid-wide, I have an answer for that (well, four actually). On my WAR, in any situation that doesn't involve holding aggro or dealing damage, my answer is "hope the healers can adjust."

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

PLD also lost Foresight, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke in case you remember something called cross-class back then.

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Are you serious with that ?

If you really want to count these you'd have to count them on DRK losses too. You'd also want to count Internal Release and Second Wind for WAR. But it doesn't count. Bloodbath, Foresight and Mercy Stroke were MRD skills, WAR lost them. Not PLD.

As for OP, I don't think that it would be a good idea. It would force role actions for certain jobs when we already have mandatory ones (at least as tanks). It would leave even less room for choice in the end IMO. At this point they could also just give up on the cross-role stuff and give only individual skills for every job.

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Originally Posted by Quor

So I certainly don't feel the loss of BB on my PLD

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Now that PLD finally has an AoE skill, I can say I miss BB now more than ever.

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Originally Posted by Quor

WAR gained more dmg with Upheaval and Onslaught, but again lost sustain because a 40s CD Mercy Stroke meant it was up for every other solo fight, and useable with enough frequency in 4-mans that you could get some nice clutch healing with it.

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The increased potency and frequency on Inner Beast compensate easily for what you lost on Mercy Stroke.

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Originally Posted by Quor

WAR and DRK are functional, and certainly have moments of fun, but it's nothing like it used to be in HW, and nothing close to what it's like playing PLD.

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No, because "like it used to be in HW" was not balanced at all. Like I said, your idea is only to bring back what was removed which was one of the reason why PLD was trash compared to DRK and WAR.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Maybe it's not the min/max way to play things, but it sure as hell was fun.

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You still need to remove some options if you don't want too many abilities to use. Considering you can tank packs with DA+AB, having a second option for that same situation is redundant.

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Originally Posted by Quor

On my WAR, in any situation that doesn't involve holding aggro or dealing damage, my answer is "hope the healers can adjust."

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If you only "hope the healers can adjust" when you need to survive, then you're probably doing something wrong with your WAR.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If you really want to count these you'd have to count them on DRK losses too.

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Sure, DRK also lost them. And yes, it counts, because it was skills that were frequently used. Like the OP said, it was "options" for PLD and DRK too. And, as a reminder, Stoneskin was also a very important option on PLD. It's funny that DRK is now the tank who can put a 10% HP shield on someone else...

It's an interesting suggestion, though I'd disagree with a few points (such as bloodbath effect on provoke, as there's no natural synergy between those 2 effects). And like Freyyy mentions, there's not really much of a choice as some CDs will be better than others and the obvious ones to take. So it's just an illusion of choice. My only real complaint of the role system, and even the cross-class system, is that it doesn't store the skills on your gear set. You can't have different gear sets with different role skills for various content. It's not a huge deal to change them around really, remembering to is the hardest part lol, mainly just QoL.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Hell, why not have role actions that include specific job-unique effects to them?

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THANK YOU!!! SOMEONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS HOW AWFUL ROLE ACTION IS IN GENERAL!!!!

I think the difficulty is that a number of tank role actions (Provoke, Rampart, Reprisal, Shirk) see significantly more use than others, especially in raid content. So this is fine if your chosen job's best bonuses are on the more often used skills, but less so if your job's best bonuses are on something more niche.

I think a lot of these issues (as well as the problem with adding more hotbar actions each expansion) can be solved by implementing talent trees. For example, Provoke and Ultimatum could be part of the same, mandatory base action, except that a talent could let you swap a trait which either gives it a longer range, or or gives it an AoE effect. The same could hold true for job-specific actions themselves.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

THANK YOU!!! SOMEONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS HOW AWFUL ROLE ACTION IS IN GENERAL!!!!

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No, you just both don't understand the purpose of role actions.

If you want to create more job identity, this is exactly the skills where you should not look. In fact, the premise itself is wrong as Rampart does not act differently for PLD.

Well, at first, Rampart should never have been a cross role action.

We can debate on everything, but every other skill is a "situational use" with some beeing more situational than others (Provoke/shirk/reprisal > low blow or silence crap, or even awareness)

But Rampart is not one of them. You have no chance, whatever the content you do, not to slot Rampart because it's the BASIC cooldown you allways should have with you.

Provoke is mandatory for security or tank swap, Shirk is a must have for swaps or initial threat on bosses, awareness is a must have to combine with raw intuition or for crit abilities, anticipation is quite decent for dungeon pulls (even If I think it could have a little boost, parry is already a pretty weak mitigation and 30% only average 6% reduction, not factoring base parry).

Low blow can be usefull for dungeons as well, since tanks are usually more aware of mechanics due to simple cycles.

Well Ultimatum is really niche, for now I don't see it worth slotting, just as interject.

Now, we have rampart. A must have for any tank, any time.
Convalescence on a lesser extent, end up beeing a sure go for every situation, even if the increased healing received is weaker than damage reductions, it's in a good spot and is well paired with Thrill of Battle.


Why is Rampart a cross role action, since once obtained, at lvl 8, it will be perma slotted in the tank hotbar ?

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Now, we have rampart. A must have for any tank, any time.
Why is Rampart a cross role action, since once obtained, at lvl 8, it will be perma slotted in the tank hotbar ?

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I agree 100%. They should have just adjusted foresight and shadowskin to all be the same reduction, CD, and duration.

I think a cool skill for tank role action would be something like ninjas Shade Shift.

Could call it Stoneskin and have it absorb damage up to 20% of your maximum HP for 20s. Recast 120sec.

Or 10% HP and have a 30-60s recast

I got shouted at by a healer in v2s for not having awareness when I was slotting rampart/shirk/provoke/reprisal/conva. WHAT DO I GET RID OF???

(speaking of role actions that interact with native skills - e4e on healers, specifically sch. except now it doesn't line up with the deploy cooldown which is really frutrating given they're sUPPOSED TO BE USED TOGETHER).

I would like for rampart, at the very least, to go back to being a native cooldown each tank has, just to give me SOME semblance of choice on what role skills to take. I've literally never slotted anticipation. I really miss awareness when I'm playing content with tankswaps. It feels cruel to harm my mitigation because I'm required to trade aggro.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

awareness is a must have to combine with raw intuition

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OP want a special synergy for WAR on one role action like Rampatt and Intervention, here's one.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Why is Rampart a cross role action, since once obtained, at lvl 8, it will be perma slotted in the tank hotbar ?

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If you're in a Duty where you'll be OT most of the time as a DRK or WAR, you probably won't need Rampart.

role actions works as they should be, they are tank action that before you needed to level up other tanks to have the those abilities, with those abilities in place you don't need a paladin for silence or long stuns, provokes you don't need a dark knight for reprisal so on so on.

now all the tanks have access to situational abilities that will be able to be use on any given situation to any given tank class. if you want identity and complexity the last place you want that coming from is from role actions. Giving special effects depending on the class defeats the purpose of cross role actions. The problem you and many others fail to understand is that this new cross systen isn't like the old ones where you get a to borrow abilities from other classes and use them to increase dps, mitigation mandatory utilities this cross system is to give every tank a pool of situational abailities that all tanks may need on any given sitution, it's true that some are mandatory and others useless but for example in V3S you are going to need interject which would make paladin even more mandatory since they had it mixed up in spirit within now all tanks have access to this abilities putting them all on a even fiel for any situation that it can come up and I expect more things like this in future fights.

Some abilities might still be useless most of the time but they will be used at any given moment and if not in any way possible devs can create any different type of mechanincs since all tanks can do pretty much everything they might need.