Why "Super Savage" is a good thing...

Let me preface by saying that I am NOT a hardcore raider, nor will I likely ever set foot in a savage anything, let alone "Super Savage".

That said...

It's extremely beneficial to have this kind of content, so long as it doesn't take too much time and resources away from developing the rest of the game (and it won't, since much of it is tweaking values and whatnot).

Why? Because this kind of content is what gives an MMO "street cred", as it were. World of Warcraft has professional guilds with corporate sponsors who race to be the world first in clearing raids (and individual raid bosses, too) and this spectacle very much becomes an event unto itself that garners yet more interest in the game.

It also helps when players compare the two MMOs and trying to determine which they want to play: even if the player in question will never ACTUALLY enter Super Savage, they'll know for a fact that they'll never go without challenge in the game, and that's more important than you'd think.

Again, I'll never be a S.Savage raider, but it's good to know that there's a ball-busting, rage-inducing, professional raid team-destroying level of difficulty somewhere in the game for two reasons:

Firstly, if anyone tries to talk shit about FFXIV being "too casual", we can just say, "Oh? Tell me all about your synced Super Savage clear..."

Second, because it's comforting to know that such a challenge exists in the game if a player ever DID decide to rise to it. It's sounds strange, but there IS comfort in knowing that you'll never want for challenge in the game.

All of this adds up to S.Savage being a good thing overall: doesn't take many development resources and can only help FFXIV be taken more seriously as a solid MMO for raiding, which in turn means more income, which then means more resources for fun additions like PotD, Gold Saucer, Aquapolis, etc.

I also believe (my personal opinion, don't jump at me for voicing it) that the raiders are a big part of keeping the game alive.
Between patches, when most casuals have finished all they're interested in and suspend their sub til next patch, and I know a lot of people who do just that, it's the raid groups that still log in. They will still run dungeons to cap tomes, to get gear for other jobs to maybe play in raid one day (granted not all do, but I do just that), they will log in to get their weekly clears, they will work on maybe getting that one elusive item dropped and they will fight for their clears til the last minute before servers go down for next patch. And they continue to pay their sub.
So I say, it's nice of SE to finally show their raiders some love. People keep saying it's just 1% of the playerbase, but it's that 1% who keeps their subs up continually in order to raid, while many other players are already off somewhere else waiting for new content.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

I also believe (my personal opinion, don't jump at me for voicing it) that the raiders are a big part of keeping the game alive.
Between patches, when most casuals have finished all they're interested in and suspend their sub til next patch, and I know a lot of people who do just that, it's the raid groups that still log in. They will still run dungeons to cap tomes, to get gear for other jobs to maybe play in raid one day (granted not all do, but I do just that), they will log in to get their weekly clears, they will work on maybe getting that one elusive item dropped and they will fight for their clears til the last minute before servers go down for next patch. And they continue to pay their sub.
So I say, it's nice of SE to finally show their raiders some love. People keep saying it's just 1% of the playerbase, but it's that 1% who keeps their subs up continually in order to raid, while many other players are already off somewhere else waiting for new content.

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Umm... I'm not sure about your experience but from what I've seen its generally the "casuals" who stay subbed and the hardcore raiders that don't. Fact is that if you're doing content casually it lasts longer so there's more reason to log in and do things for longer periods of time since you still have things to do. Do the raiders still log in? Yes, but they tend to log in and grab the top BiS that they can, but then they generally leave until some new BiS or another raid comes along.

Some of that 1% may keep their subs up but I don't think that it's because they're continuing to raid as much as it is just matter of habit. Most of them have milked the Savage raids dry within 7 weeks of the first full clear, but honestly the major bulk of consistent subs the game has stems from people playing casually because, even after the raids have been out and cleared for weeks... they still have fresh content to do.

I doubt the raiding scene today is only 1% of the playerbase anymore.

Ok, 2%? The percentage don't matter in that context. There should be different content for different folks.

Super Savage is a good thing.

Just give the rest of the playerbase a Super Gentle.

I mean, it's fine as long as it's not the only raiding content available to players (IE, Gordias).

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Ok, 2%? The percentage don't matter in that context. There should be different content for different folks.

Super Savage is a good thing.

Just give the rest of the playerbase a Super Gentle.

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The rest of the content IS super gentle.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I mean, it's fine as long as it's not the only raiding content available to players (IE, Gordias).

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I keep thinking whether people are just wanting to see a repeat of this. Having a3s and a4s around wasn't the stuff of accolades. And it would not be so even with shiny lights and effects.

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Originally Posted by Oxmodial

The rest of the content IS super gentle.

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Perhaps, but I want an actual content designed and named that by SE not just a summarization of the entire world from the players.

My only fear is that super savage will become the STANDARD PARAMETER for everything. You can brace yourself for:

- Anything below super savage is worthless
- Can I see your super savage clear?
- Everyone who does super savage follows these strats. If you don't, you're a scrub.
- That damage you're pulling is garbage, you'd never meet any super savage check. And you're a worthless casual for it. Go git gud.
- If you don't raid super savage, your opinion is invalid
- Savage is EASY MODE and if you wipe on it you're a scrub

And many others... People will start taking the super savage raiders, how they do things and how they behave as the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE for raiding, including EX primals and Savage. And that's gonna get the community as a whole much more toxic and less welcoming for anyone who are below those set arbitrary standards (that the toxic players themselves will also be, mostly, but hey, hypocrisy always was the main rule)

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Umm... I'm not sure about your experience but from what I've seen its generally the "casuals" who stay subbed and the hardcore raiders that don't.

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Maybe I should clarify, I wasn't referring to the bleeding edge, world first hardcore raiders, but more to the majority of people who raid (midcore as they are called often). So, groups like mine, for example. On Alexander we kept raiding and doing stuff together all the way through, until Sb got released.

On the other hand, I know a lot of people who don't raid, who just come in, play the story, level the 2-3 jobs they're interested in, gear them up with tomestone gear and then unsub til next content patch to do the same. Don't get me wrong, that's fine, if they want it that way, but I don't think SE makes a lot of money off accounts that do that, as opposed to mine for example, which has been continuously active since launch. And it's been active cause I was busy raiding.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

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This already happens now. Nothing is going to change.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Maybe I should clarify, I wasn't referring to the bleeding edge, world first hardcore raiders, but more to the majority of people who raid (midcore as they are called often). So, groups like mine, for example. On Alexander we kept raiding and doing stuff together all the way through, until Sb got released.

On the other hand, I know a lot of people who don't raid, who just come in, play the story, level the 2-3 jobs they're interested in, gear them up with tomestone gear and then unsub til next content patch to do the same. Don't get me wrong, that's fine, if they want it that way, but I don't think SE makes a lot of money off accounts that do that, as opposed to mine for example, which has been continuously active since launch. And it's been active cause I was busy raiding.

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Well, you're always going to have things like that and people will unsub and resub for a variety of reasons across the spectrum. I don't raid myself due to time restraints that won't allow me to conform to a static schedule, but I've been subbed since the game re-launched and I play consistently. This is partly because I'm an Omni and there's always something for me to work on, but I also know plenty of others who play just to play even though they don't raid. It really boils down to the people who enjoy the game and want to play will support it consistently and those who are not as interested, or those who cannot afford to stay subbed constantly, won't. I don't think you can break the groups down any other way.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

My only fear is that super savage will become the STANDARD PARAMETER for everything. You can brace yourself for:....

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I mean, this is more of a problem that's generated by the community and playerbase, rather than the developers.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I mean, this is more of a problem that's generated by the community and playerbase, rather than the developers.

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Yes it is. But one cannot deny the responsibility developers have when releasing such content knowing the consequences.

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

This already happens now. Nothing is going to change.

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Happens, but in a lesser extent. many on the raiding community on HSW had the "clear credentials" to shut those people up, and that KIND OF managed the issue, to an extent. This will be near-impossible with savage, and the problem will likely aggravate in an order of magnitude.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I doubt the raiding scene today is only 1% of the playerbase anymore.

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It was never 1% of the playbase. That was always a strawman argument that people used when they wanted to make excuses for a job being poorly balanced.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I doubt the raiding scene today is only 1% of the playerbase anymore.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

It was never 1% of the playbase. That was always a strawman argument that people used when they wanted to make excuses for a job being poorly balanced.

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Yeah, the 1% thing is just an easy way to refer to the "best of the best". It's not really 1% of the population but meant to try and give a strong, sharp image of how small the minority of players the particular concept you're try to defend or defame you feel it would affect. It's easier to get a feel for "1% of the population" as opposed to "the top elite" since 1% is a quantification we're familiar with.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Why? Because this kind of content is what gives an MMO "street cred", as it were. World of Warcraft has professional guilds with corporate sponsors who race to be the world first in clearing raids (and individual raid bosses, too) and this spectacle very much becomes an event unto itself that garners yet more interest in the game.

It also helps when players compare the two MMOs and trying to determine which they want to play: even if the player in question will never ACTUALLY enter Super Savage, they'll know for a fact that they'll never go without challenge in the game, and that's more important than you'd think.

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As someone who has been playing various MMOs since the days of Everquest and did the whole hardcore raiding thing for at least a decade-
I don't actually give a crap about this game's "cred" in comparison to WoW. I played it from beta all the way through WotLK before quitting because I have come to deeply dislike the viewpoint that hardcore endgame in MMOs is everything, because you know what? Once you quit the game it all becomes worthless very quickly. No one gives a crap anymore that we cleared Vex Thal in 2 days due to late notification in EQ1 (open world raiding rotations yo), or that our guild did weekly Molten Core clears in vanilla WoW. All that stuff is rotting on my old characters and all the stress and drama I dealt with to get it was not worth it in the end. At all. I *like* the overall feel of FFXIV, I love the requirement of MSQ and the fact that Squeenix tries to keep all the old content relevant and focuses on casuals. As far as I've been able to tell, FFXIV is the only MMO that does those things instead of catering to the hardcore crowd and for me, that's the draw. Trying to compete with WoW by doing the endgame things WoW does just makes for another cookie cutter WoW clone. And if I wanted that, I'd go dig out my Blizzard authenticator.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Umm... I'm not sure about your experience but from what I've seen its generally the "casuals" who stay subbed and the hardcore raiders that don't. Fact is that if you're doing content casually it lasts longer so there's more reason to log in and do things for longer periods of time since you still have things to do. Do the raiders still log in? Yes, but they tend to log in and grab the top BiS that they can, but then they generally leave until some new BiS or another raid comes along.

Some of that 1% may keep their subs up but I don't think that it's because they're continuing to raid as much as it is just matter of habit. Most of them have milked the Savage raids dry within 7 weeks of the first full clear, but honestly the major bulk of consistent subs the game has stems from people playing casually because, even after the raids have been out and cleared for weeks... they still have fresh content to do.

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Pretty much this. I've never unsubbed since I started and I've been happily leveling alt classes, gathering, questing, and working on older content that I passed over at level due to my current casual playstyle. Logging in just to run the weeklies gets old really quick, and IMO if all you do is raid in FFXIV you're not even enjoying the stuff that sets this game apart from WoW and all the other cookie cutter MMOs.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

My only fear is that super savage will become the STANDARD PARAMETER for everything. You can brace yourself for:

And many others... People will start taking the super savage raiders, how they do things and how they behave as the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE for raiding, including EX primals and Savage. And that's gonna get the community as a whole much more toxic and less welcoming for anyone who are below those set arbitrary standards (that the toxic players themselves will also be, mostly, but hey, hypocrisy always was the main rule)

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Well that only really applies to PuGs, which evidently this content is not made for.

But you make a valid point – it will naturally cause a trickle down effect. Only thing you can do is shield yourself from it with your FC.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

My only fear is that super savage will become the STANDARD PARAMETER for everything.

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There were plenty of guilds in WoW that had no aspiration to do Mythic raids (the hardest), just as there are plenty of FCs in XIV that won't aspire to Savage/SSavage content.

And there will be people who look down on others all the time, regardless.

There will be people who look down on others for not doing SSavage, just as there will be people who look down on others FOR doing SSavage, calling them "no-lifer tryhards".

People are going to be people, but that'll never be a reason to exclude high end challenges from the game.

Oh, man. I went shopping for a new pair of Air Max at the finish line, and the kid salesperson told me my Ex-oh-fits looked like "Dad shoes." I thought that was super savage.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Firstly, if anyone tries to talk shit about FFXIV being "too casual", we can just say, "Oh? Tell me all about your synced Super Savage clear..."

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Lol i love this idea that if 1% of your content is difficult, then no1 has a right to complain the game is too easy or casual.

It doesn't matter how hard super savage is if 95% of your game is faceroll. And the 5% of the game that isn't faceroll have little to no rewards for doing it.

Right now, in this game as it is.... Omega normal drops a better weapon than Susano Extreme and drops the same ilvl accessories as Lakshmi Extreme.... Think about that before making comments.

When i'm looking at the system deciding where i want to invest my time and energy... Why would I ever do an extreme? Just for the lulz?

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

It doesn't matter how hard super savage is if 95% of your game is faceroll

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Played WoW lately?

Used to be they had these entire expansion-long quests where you painstakingly built the best gear in the game through raiding, collecting special items, and some solo challenges that were tough enough that some people actually couldn't beat them to get their legendary.

Now, those same legendary items, the BEST gear in the game, are acquired through logging in once per day and doing open world daily quests that involve doing things like picking flowers and other literally trivial activities.

And yet, WoW still has an extremely active following that enjoys watching the race to see who can get world first on a boss kill.

WoW is probably easier than XIV in every single aspect, yet it has the aforementioned following for raiding.

If Yoshi-P builds it, they WILL come.

It won't come, it will be called overtuned and the people affected by it won't just be the raiders breaking up.

What good is a fancy sword that is replaced in three months if I have to lose friends to get it?

A higher raid level doesn't do really anything for this game though. It wouldn't even revitalize bored players such as myself to continue playing, the game keeps going down the same beaten path, and it's boring. Now let's say it follows the same loot drop rules as savage, then what? You're not doing anything new here, come back next week like every other end game content and get another token!

The game needs variety, and not variety gated behind 8 or 24 players, adding a higher raid isn't going to balance out the massive lack of end game that has been evident since 2.0.

Why is it people whine when there isnt enough player base to do these hard raids, then whine some more when they make it easier for people to enjoy the end game content cause its "too easy".

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I doubt the raiding scene today is only 1% of the playerbase anymore.

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I have to agree. Clear rates of savage raids in HW were aomething like 5% weren't they, depending on the raid tier and servers. Coil was a bit better, but it's safe to say that the real raiding population is probably a bit higher than 5%. That said, I'd agree that it's casual players who play consistently between patches because we (self confessed filthy casual speaking) tend to consume more of the game in total and at a more measured pace. I'm not sure of the PVP engagement numbers, but I would think they are similar to raiding with some degree of overlap. The truth is, the world has changed, modern MMORPG players are more casual than not, and games have to cater to their audience. For more hardcore players, that cold be a tough reality to face.

That's why i said the percent is inconsequential. The majority of players are casual and rarely raid.

The world has changed for mmorpgs. I love XI, but you don't see many of those old school type games being made anymore. If content is too long lived or too difficult the masses move on.

It's good Yoshi does give skilled raiders content. The other groups needs other content too, endgame dungeons, gentle mode, etc.

Street cred? Hardly anything cred about super savage. XIV doesn't have as bad as rollercoaster as most MMOs.
Only people I see comparing roller coasters are WoW. I get people like roller coasters and it's -their- main attraction,
but is it FINAL FANTASY main attraction? That's up to devs, not the players.

Do you like it if you're told "You have to be this high to enter". Mmo are best unique than generic.
What's the point going to Disneyland if it's just like any other town circus?

I for one am excited to see forum posts complaining that some little title or just a bit of extra flavour in the fight or something is locked behind Super Savage and that it's unfair. :B

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

gentle mode

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Normal mode?

I beleive when Super Savage was announced, Yoshi said it was designed to be hard and didnt want to hear complaints about it being too hard. Wonder how well this will blow over xD

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

A higher raid level doesn't do really anything for this game though. It wouldn't even revitalize bored players such as myself to continue playing, the game keeps going down the same beaten path, and it's boring.

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I don't know what else anyone could tell you on this front, sadly.

XIV is a themepark, gear-gate MMO at its roots, and as far as TPMMOs go, it actually has a LOT more side pursuits than WoW does, even: Triple Triad, Choco racing/breeding, crafting, gathering, Aquapolis, Verminion, etc.

All WoW has that XIV doesn't in this area is a Pokemon-style pet battling minigame, but XIV has a RTS pet minigame, soooo...

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

I beleive when Super Savage was announced, Yoshi said it was designed to be hard and didnt want to hear complaints about it being too hard. Wonder how well this will blow over xD

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I'll be nothing but happy if Yoshi-P wrecks faces with this mode, and considering it's SUPPOSED to be the hardest content in the game, no one has any right to complain.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

I beleive when Super Savage was announced, Yoshi said it was designed to be hard and didnt want to hear complaints about it being too hard. Wonder how well this will blow over xD

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-smiles- :)