Are BRD/MCH A Sub DPS Class (Support DPS) or Are They Just DPS Now?

I didn't play ff14 in HW. I raided in ARR and now back in SB. In ARR BRD was basically a sub class in the dps classes (aka dps support). If I remember correctly, it was basically required to be in Raids for its required use of tp/mp abilities because resources were almost guaranteed to run out during the fight. Again I'm not sure if this remained true in HW. Now in SB I've done savage v1 and v2 and at no point do I see the use of these mp/tp refresh abilities being close to required.

If the above is true, why do some people still claim that BRD/MCH only compete against each other for a raid spot? They are no longer a sub class in the dps category that is required. Shouldn't they just be competing with all the other dps for a spot? And yes I do realize that they have other unique support abilities but none of the are "hard" required and many of the other dps classes have support abilities too.

TL;DR Currently:
BRD = Support + DPS
MCH = DPS


Longer Explanation:
If you look at the categories on the sheet, BRD and MCH are “Ranged Physical DPS” they generally do less damage than melee DPS, I assume because they have the advantage of long range attacks and mobility. SE wanted to give people a reason to play a lower DPS job beyond just the range advantage, but not equal the damage output of say BLM and RDM. So they gave BRD a bunch of extra buffs the party could benefit from (not just the TP and MP refresh which I agree hardly gets used now.) MCH on the other hand has diverged and offers no such support outside their cross role abilities. Some are assuming this means that MCH is supposed to be more DPS. However MCH is currently trying to carve out an identity again seeing as how BRD can put out damage with less hassle than MCH and MCH has to use more complex rotations to put out the same damage. The many MCH threads you will see for a while are to help suggest MCH as being THE premier Ranged DPS or offer a different kind of support apart from bard (like becoming the debuffer class instead.)

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Bard can:
+ 2% Critical Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage)
+ 15% Direct Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage.)
+ 20% Heal rate to a party member with a song
+ Remove a debuff with a song
+ depending on a song being played can: Increase HP by 15%, Reduce physical Vulnerability by 10%, or reduce magic Vulnerability by 10%

Generally if played correctly having a BRD ups everyone's DPS and can pull some emergency support should a healer feel overwhelmed or get snagged by a paralyze or a silence, all the while barely lowering their personal DPS in the process. So they are a benefit to have.

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Mechanist can:
+ Lower a targets damage by 10%
+ Knockback a target (but do no damage)

Generally you bring a MCH for more DPS, naturally being ranged means they can put on some constant DPS without having to worry about range restrictions so if played correctly they are a benefit to have for their DPS alone. Their Damage debuff is good for popping before a big boss attack. They don't really compete for the spot BRD has anymore and are more in line with the other DPS roles (but at ranged instead.)

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Originally Posted by s3ystic

TL;DR Currently:
BRD = Support + DPS
MCH = DPS

Longer Explanation:
If you look at the categories on the sheet, BRD and MCH are “Ranged Physical DPS” they generally do less damage than melee DPS, I assume because they have the advantage of long range attacks and mobility. SE wanted to give people a reason to play a lower DPS job beyond just the range advantage, but not equal the damage output of say BLM and RDM. So they gave BRD a bunch of extra buffs the party could benefit from (not just the TP and MP refresh which I agree hardly gets used now.) MCH on the other hand has diverged and offers no such support outside their cross role abilities. Some are assuming this means that MCH is supposed to be more DPS. However MCH is currently trying to carve out an identity again seeing as how BRD can put out damage with less hassle than MCH and MCH has to use more complex rotations to put out the same damage. The many MCH threads you will see for a while are to help suggest MCH as being THE premier Ranged DPS or offer a different kind of support apart from bard (like becoming the debuffer class instead.)

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Bard can:
+2% Critical Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage)
+15% Direct Hit rate for the party. (Potentially more damage.)
+ Heal a party member with a song
+ Remove a debuff with a song
+ depending on a song being played can: Increase HP by 15%, Reduce physical Vulnerability by 10%, or reduce magic Vulnerability by 10%

Support wise, aside from shared role abilities Mechanist can:
+ Lower a targets damage by 10%
+ Knockback a target (but do no damage)

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Yes I get all of that. My main point was that in ARR BRD did not compete other dps classes for a raid spot because of its unique access to tp/mp refresh abilities. I dunno what the situation was in HW. I get the impression from some people that they think the same situation applies currently for BRD/MCH. This seems to be erroneous thinking because from what I can tell BRD/MCH simply compete with all dps classes for a raid spot now.

For example when it comes to MCH dps/support abilities, most people simply compare it to BRD like some how they are their own separate category.

They have both lower dps than other dps, bring both utility.
BRD more utility and if RNGJESUS likes you more dps than MCH.
People consider MCH dead right now. There's been one o4s clear on MCH as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

For example when it comes to MCH dps/support abilities, most people simply compare it to BRD like some how they are their own separate category.

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I hope the current raid mentality doesn't change. I quite like my raid spot. Besides if you consider rDPS increases BRD are equally as useful as a Ninja and the both of them do for a team than what a samurai (for example) can do
But you seem to be saying that DPS should be competing with other DPS? I mean we still have the ever useful disable. Even if trick attack is technically far stronger than hypercharge you can still stack them. And while refresh isn't as king as it used to be it's still sort of good.

If we were competing sorely as a DPS of course MCH would be in a foul place. But we'll be desirable because our tools are useful, which is why we have our own category... Right?

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Originally Posted by Matthew_Fox

They have both lower dps than other dps, bring both utility.
BRD more utility and if RNGJESUS likes you more dps than MCH.
People consider MCH dead right now. There's been one o4s clear on MCH as far as I know.

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Well I mean it's not that dead. It's just returned to being one of the lowest played jobs. The changes missed the mark and players aren't going to play something that has a terrible "flavor and fun to effectiveness" ratio. While BRDs learned to play the flute MCH slap their lunchbox. Besides I don't think I can exactly blame them. The idea of waiting an entire raid tier ala stormblood is not appealing. It won't be until august before we get another patch/pass again at a minimum. And even if we got a change again before that, there's a strong chance it will equate to absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Yes I get all of that. My main point was that in ARR BRD did not compete other dps classes for a raid spot because of its unique access to tp/mp refresh abilities. I dunno what the situation was in HW. I get the impression from some people that they think the same situation applies currently for BRD/MCH. This seems to be erroneous thinking because from what I can tell BRD/MCH simply compete with all dps classes for a raid spot now.

For example when it comes to MCH dps/support abilities, most people simply compare it to BRD like some how they are their own separate category.

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Well with that perspective, you would be correct, they are just another DPS. Nothing more to add.

The reason why people are prone to separate the two is because SE gave them their own category, even separated them on the character sheet. They are ranged. So it is just natural for them to do so, after all they do not share the same cross roll abilities either. So while they are just other DPS they will naturally bring other abilities to the group.

However to reiterate, from the simple point of view, they are just another DPS, yes. However it is an oversimplification.

Oh in HW, BRD did compete with MCH (after MCH buffs) depending on if your main dps was physical or magical or just due to the ranged DPS preference. They both had a way to refresh mana/TP and BRD had foes for magic damage up while MCH had hypercharge for Physical or Magical damage up (since no other class provided physical damage up as well as MCH being physical itself, Physical damage up was used 99% of the time).

This has changed in stormblood a bit, where I think MCH lost its mana/TP regen and hypercharge became damage up for everyone but the effect was halved. Now, because the way MP/TP was changed, as you say for most situations these resources aren't really a problem anymore. However, BRD is still the biggest rDPS contributor while having low dps ceiling compared to the rest (according to the SSS HP pools, it is 9th/9). MCH is just over half the rDPS contribution of BRD while being like 20 DPS higher (8th/9). I'm guessing the stigma still exists from ARR/HW days coupled with the role skills which kinda left those classes in that catergory (with a new friend in DRG, kinda).

Oh yeah also DRG losing 10% piercing resistance down to 5% means that these classes lost a little bit of potential damage also contributes a little to why they are no longer mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

I hope the current raid mentality doesn't change. I quite like my raid spot. Besides if you consider rDPS increases BRD are equally as useful as a Ninja and the both of them do for a team than what a samurai (for example) can do
But you seem to be saying that DPS should be competing with other DPS? I mean we still have the ever useful disable. Even if trick attack is technically far stronger than hypercharge you can still stack them. And while refresh isn't as king as it used to be it's still sort of good.

If we were competing sorely as a DPS of course MCH would be in a foul place. But we'll be desirable because our tools are useful, which is why we have our own category... Right?



Well I mean it's not that dead. It's just returned to being one of the lowest played jobs. The changes missed the mark and players aren't going to play something that has a terrible "flavor and fun : dps ratio". While BRDs learned to play the flute MCH slap their lunchbox

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I'm not saying that they should be. I'm simply saying that is the current reality. The only reason to take a BRD/MCH over another dps class is because the sum of their personal dps + indirect support dps abilities is superior to another dps classes sum of personal dps + indirection support dps abilities. Now we can argue that we always want to have both ranged and melee dps (I'm not sure if that is true tho) and in that case at the least BRD/MCH compete with all the other current ranged dps classes for a spot. I just don't see why people still think BRD/MCH is its own category that for balance discussion can only be compared to each other.

Like if a BRD is brought to a raid right now it is because the sum of its damage output (personal and from support abilities) makes it desirable and not because it is a "required" class.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I'm not saying that they should be. I'm simply saying that is the currently reality. The only reason to take a BRD/MCH over another dps class is because the sum of their personal dps + indirect support dps abilities is superior to another dps classes sum of personal dps + indirection support dps abilities. Now we can argue that we always want to have both ranged and melee dps (I'm not sure if that is true tho) and in that case at the list BRD/MCH compete with all the other current ranged dps classes for a spot. I just don't see why people still think BRD/MCH is its own category that for balance discussion can only be compared to each other.

Like if a BRD is brought to a raid right now it is because the sum of its damage output (personal and from support abilities) makes it desirable and not because it is a "required" class.

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I cant think of a "required" class honestly. What are the required classes? The meta?

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Like if a BRD is brought to a raid right now it is because the sum of its damage output (personal and from support abilities) makes it desirable and not because it is a "required" class.

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I think of a BRD like a catch all. So you have various jobs that raise only one type of damage with the exclusion of Ninja. But a BRD can raise the damage everybody can do and can positively make both healers life easier. Sure these tools aren't as useful as they were but they're still useful. And from what I heard raid defensive abilities are a must for 3 and especially 4 so I'm looking forward to that.

If people's mindset changed on the necessity of rDPS (like was the case with susan and lakshmi) than we're going to end up in a really bad spot really quickly. Which might indeed happen anyways. That said I think that BRD/MCH are great for progression and do things no other job can replicate. And so should still be thought of in it's own category in that aspect because they really are worlds apart. Like I don't want to undersell dismantle, it's great! What non tank job has access to something to reduce raid damage taken that will be up for most aoes.

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Originally Posted by s3ystic

I cant think of a "required" class honestly. What are the required classes? The meta?

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He's talking about how generally people will want/ wanted a rdps for their support which hasn't changed since ever.

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Originally Posted by s3ystic

I cant think of a "required" class honestly. What are the required classes? The meta?

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That's entirely my point. There are no required classes like there was with BRD in ARR. Or maybe I'm remembering incorrectly and BRD wasn't 100% required in raids in ARR? Because there is no requirement for BRD/MCH they are no longer a sub dps class (like tank, healer, dps, support dps). As a result, they don't only compete with each other for a spot, they compete with all dps for a spot.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

that's entirely my point. There are no required classes like there was with BRD in ARR. Or maybe I'm remembering incorrectly and BRD wasn't 100% required in raids in ARR? Because there is not requirement for BRD/MCH they are no longer a sub dps class (like tank, healer, dps, support dps). As a result, they don't only compete with each other for a spot, they compete with all dps for a spot.

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Point made. Endorsed.

If you just want to have the maximal DPS, the comp is quite obviously SAM-MNK-NIN-RDM/BLM. Then, if you're worried about having three melee, you take the second caster over MNK or maybe SAM.

Realistically speaking, BRD/MCH still depend on DRG to compete with other jobs. But SE still double-counts the piercing debuff - counting it both as part of the DRG's contributed damage and part of BRD/MCH's contributed damage. When of course, when you bring a DRG+BRD/MCH you only get that damage once.

So as long as that's the case, none of the three can ever be part of the meta speedkill comp, unless one or multiple of them are 'overpowered' within the assumptions that double-counting makes.

That said, for progression, where you're expecting a bunch of mistakes and inefficiencies, taking the dps hit in favor of MP regen is a sound choice, even if not strictly required. And the dps hit is lessened, relatively, since your melee and casters won't be fully optimized in terms of uptime and maxing casts and such.

So most groups will want a BRD or MCH for that reason. But, it'd be silly to take the dps hit twice over, hence it plays out as a "BRD or MCH" slot.

But DRG + BRD is stronger than RDM + MNK. The optimal speed comp would be NIN, SAM, DRG, BRD. Actually depending on the buffs BLM got if they do more DPS than SAM then they would replace SAM.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

If you just want to have the maximal DPS, the comp is quite obviously SAM-MNK-NIN-RDM/BLM. Then, if you're worried about having three melee, you take the second caster over MNK or maybe SAM.

Realistically speaking, BRD/MCH still depend on DRG to compete with other jobs. But SE still double-counts the piercing debuff - counting it both as part of the DRG's contributed damage and part of BRD/MCH's contributed damage. When of course, when you bring a DRG+BRD/MCH you only get that damage once.

So as long as that's the case, none of the three can ever be part of the meta speedkill comp, unless one or multiple of them are 'overpowered' within the assumptions that double-counting makes.

That said, for progression, where you're expecting a bunch of mistakes and inefficiencies, taking the dps hit in favor of MP regen is a sound choice, even if not strictly required. And the dps hit is lessened, relatively, since your melee and casters won't be fully optimized in terms of uptime and maxing casts and such.

So most groups will want a BRD or MCH for that reason. But, it'd be silly to take the dps hit twice over, hence it plays out as a "BRD or MCH" slot.

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Well in the personal progression I saw in savage v1/v2 I did not see much use for refresh abilities. When people screwed up and died multiple times (the only situation I can see where resources become an issue), the mechanics simply lead to a wipe more often than not. I literally never saw anyone go resource dry and use of refresh abilities help with progression. Same seems to be case from the videos of savage v3/v4 progression that I have seen. I could be wrong on v3/v4 though.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

But DRG + BRD is stronger than RDM + MNK. The optimal speed comp would be NIN, SAM, DRG, BRD. Actually depending on the buffs BLM got if they do more DPS than SAM then they would replace SAM.

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I don't see how. DRG got buffed in 4.05 sure but none of the fastest kills before that even took one. While BRD and RDM had solid slots with MNK being in the fastest Susan kills. In the fastest Susan kills there isn't EVEN a BRD. I look forward to fflogs being fixed so we can start extrapolating again.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

That said, for progression, where you're expecting a bunch of mistakes and inefficiencies, taking the dps hit in favor of MP regen is a sound choice, even if not strictly required. And the dps hit is lessened, relatively, since your melee and casters won't be fully optimized in terms of uptime and maxing casts and such.

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Now that I think on it, wouldn't this just mean RDM compete in that same "spot" that really doesn't exist. I mean their supportive abilities and instant cast revive is some of the strongest "goof up insurance" tools in the game.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe their raid slot was also unchallenged because many strats too advantage of the fact that they could handle mechanics with little to no DPS downtime because of their mobility.

This was dependant on fight design so it might not apply as much anymore.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

Now that I think on it, wouldn't this just mean RDM compete in that same "spot" that really doesn't exist. I mean their supportive abilities and instant cast revive is some of the strongest "goof up insurance" tools in the game.

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Well, it means that RDM is a better choice than BLM in the one caster slot assuming you are indeed bringing a BRD or MCH.

I know in my own group our BLM main is playing RDM for progression because not-doing that is basically insane. We've gotten so much mileage out of having a swiftres bot, much in the way described in that one reddit thread.

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Originally Posted by Draxis_Fallspear

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe their raid slot was also unchallenged because many strats too advantage of the fact that they could handle mechanics with little to no DPS downtime because of their mobility.

This was dependant on fight design so it might not apply as much anymore.

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Indeed and if this was ARR this would indeed be the case. But most fights have you hugging the boss in relative proximity. And even in situations where there are disengages they don't last long enough to cover that raw DPS gap, making them second fiddle to any real DPS. Not to mention that their support is also directly impacted by the uptime of other jobs.

In the 3rd fastest susano kill (2 seconds slower than the joint 1st) they have a BRD but no SAM. DRG is about 100 dps stronger with their buffs, and they also contribute almost double rDPS to that of MNK with a BRD included. The MNK in that kill got like 300 extra balance dps (fair to say, he was padded). Lets say a good DRG does 3800 without balance so around 4.1k with the same amount of balance as the MNK. This is only a difference of 300 DPS. Now the BRD did 3.6k, if he got roughly 3-4% from disembowel alone, they would have gained 108-144 dps. That is almost half the gap already. Now litany + Dragon sight would quite easily close that gap, probably overtaking it. The issue with offensive support though is that is has more moving parts than pure dps, so to calculate contributions it is a lot more of an approximation than hard DPS but you can see where I'm going with this.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

In the 3rd fastest susano kill (2 seconds slower than the joint 1st) they have a BRD but no SAM. DRG is about 100 dps stronger with their buffs, and they also contribute almost double rDPS to that of MNK with a BRD included. The MNK in that kill got like 300 extra balance dps (fair to say, he was padded). Lets say a good DRG does 3800 without balance so around 4.1k with the same amount of balance as the MNK. This is only a difference of 300 DPS. Now the BRD did 3.6k, if he got roughly 3-4% from disembowel alone, they would have gained 108-144 dps. That is almost half the gap already. Now litany + Dragon sight would quite easily close that gap, probably overtaking it. The issue with offensive support though is that is has more moving parts than pure dps, so to calculate contributions it is a lot more of an approximation than hard DPS but you can see where I'm going with this.

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Again this is not about whether BRD/MCH is currently viable or not. It is simply a discussion of how they are categorized and who they compete against for a spot.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Again this is not about whether BRD/MCH is currently viable or not. It is simply a discussion of how they are categorized and who they compete against for a spot.

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With that in mind. If we use the rDPS clause than they compete DRG, NIN and to a lesser extent MNK, RDM and SMN. I'm not sure where dps + rdps lies, however.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Again this is not about whether BRD/MCH is currently viable or not. It is simply a discussion of how they are categorized and who they compete against for a spot.

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No this was a direct reply to someone who had replied to me.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

No this was a direct reply to someone who had replied to me.

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Sorry about that. Kind of went on a tangent there

Support exists as a sub-role from dps specs in SB. Bard and Machinist, together with them netting less dps than the rest...

The problem:
They achieved this with one (BRD), but not the other (MCH), simply because the latter utility is almost negligible.

The solution:
1) Remove MCH from that quota and bump their dps to the rest's level (most boring option).
or
2) Add more utility to MCH, perhaps one that you can keep up more often, like Bard's. (best option, some people genuinely love to play dps classes that support the overall group).

Technically, BRD is the support out of the two and MCH is more the DPS. Right now though, SE kinda goofed on balancing as, somewhat like DRG, the idea in their head and the reality in-game are very different.

Can MCH support? Yes, like DRG there are some tools to support the group. But BRD has many more as that's been their entire "thing" since 2.0 (old school Foes comes to mind, same with Mages when Healers needed MP).

They have always been a DPS job, thus they are in the category, DPS. They have raid utility yes in restoring resources, but they are still a DPS.

Other DPS have raid utility to boost damage in some form or fashion, but that doesn't classify them as support. The devs have said that there wont be a full/true support job as people expect, as that would be an imbalance to team composition, raid damage, and how the game works in general.

The closest you get, IMHO, would be Astro

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Originally Posted by s3ystic

+ Heal a party member with a song

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What song would this be? The only song we have related to healing gives a 15% healing boost to a party member.

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Originally Posted by Fantasy9

What song would this be? The only song we have related to healing gives a 15% healing boost to a party member.

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My apologies ... I meant the healing boost. Ill go back and fix it.

MCH is not much of a support if you compare to BRD because of way too many skills.
BRD even deals more DPS with much less, but you CAN say BRD is a support dps because hell, they can even esuna or increase heals received by 20% along with many other res and crit buff etc.

They've only ever been DPS, same as Samurai, or a Ninja, or to a degree a WHM or DRK.

It's a matter of how dependent their rDPS contribution is.

A Samurai will have the same personal contribution regardless of raid size, although slightly enhanced if the lone source of Slashing debuff among other slashing classes.

A Ninja will require more people to have the same pay-off.

A Red Mage will require more mana- and GCD-intensive play from its healers in order to pay off, by way of Verraise.

Summoners, even omitting raise, require other sources of magic damage and at least one ally to pay off, by way of Contagion and Devotion.

If you've thought about Bards as "support" DPS before, hopefully you're already aware of their dependencies.